AMANDA KNOX IS FREE!

[phoenixgirl]

I hadn't read or heard much about the case - it wasn't in the news very much here on the East Coast. I definitely had the impression she was probably guilty at first (although it was definitely an odd story) and then didn't think much about it until this recent appeal and overturn. I was paying more attention to the hikers jailed in Iran since that was a case where the evidence (if there was any) and legal process were completely opaque. And then in the interim the "West Memphis three" were released without being declared innocent with not too much fanfare or press coverage. It's interesting what the media chooses to focus on - young white women definitely seem to get top billing (Laci Peterson, Natalee Holloway, etc.).

 

[JewelFreak]

Even the staff and other inmates at the prison didn't believe Amanda was guilty.

I hadn't read that, thanks Pandora. Nor that the footprints went from her bedroom to the bathroom -- I did hear that though they reacted to Luminol, there wasn't a test done to determine if it was actually blood; Luminol (& similar chemicals) reacts to a number of proteins & iron-content stains, such as fruit juice or cleaning agents. The whole thing was a soap opera directed by Mignini. I can't believe his boss, whoever that is, will allow him to continue the charade by appealing this verdict.

The probable real murderer-rapist, Guede, gets off w/16 yrs. Great job!

 

[Black Jade]

Thanks for pointing out the little detail about her employer, MC. By the way, her employer is black. He spent some weeks in jail because he was accused by her, for absolutely no reason. She told at least as many lies as Casey Anthony through the whole thing and kept changing her story right and left and though the prosecutor is deranged, in my opinion, I dont' feel any more sympathetic to her than I do towards Ms. Anthony.
I don't think that in most European law you are presumed innocent until it is proved you are guilty--I think it is more like our civil trials. Under that system, I can see why Ms. Knox was initially convicted. believe (someone can correct me if I'm wrong) that in most European law its your job to prove you are innocent, not like here where its the prosecutor's job to prove you guilty. Well, I certainly hope that she is innocent of the crime of being involved in Meredith's murder, feel sorry forher family, feel even sorrier for Meredith's family and hope that being in jail for four years made her into a bit of a better person, because young or not, race baiting like she did and accusing other innocent people of things and telling a lot of lies does not make me think that she is a decent human being by either American or Italian standards.

To be honest, up until a few weeks ago I thought she was guilty. Her inability to give details about the night was just very suspicious to me. That said, it doesn't seem that she was interrogated correctly. But, I was a bit perplexed at how there was stronger forensic evidence against the 3rd guy and I never an attempt to connect Knox and her BF to the third guy. Seemed like they were pursuing two different theories of the case and could convict on both. Interesting legal system.

I'm glad she's free, but -- to me -- she needs to explain where she was that night for me to 100% think of her as innocent. She shouldn't be in jail given the prosecutor's misconduct, but I still -- for some inexplicable reason -- can't think of her as innocent.

I'm in a different position in that she's from the same state as me (Washington State) and the university she went is near to where I live, so the papers here have always been in support of her. I'm very glad she is free and it was heartbreaking to watch her visably shaking while hearing the outcome of her appeal yesterday knowing she'd been locked up for 4 years.

One thing to note though is she did make up some stuff like initially accusing her employer of the murder and was sentenced to time...considered served. I don't think that makes her guilty of being more than a scared person (a 20 year old - barely an adult) who probably wasn't entirely paying attention to what she was doing that evening (do most of us actually LOOK at the clock on a friday night while hanging out w/a new boyfriend tracking every event all night?) and not having a firm grasp of the Italian language, so she panicked. ???

The whole thing is a sad situation. Hopefully Amanda can eventually go back to leading a normal life. I can't see that happening any time soon. After being in a cell for four years! It will take YEARS to recover from that.

 

[Tacori E-ring]

Good for her. The evidence was not there. Wonder how much her story will go for.

 

[JewelFreak]

On the news tonight they said the family's legal bills from this trial are a million bucks. Whatever she gets for her story, doesn't sound like she'll keep much of it.

 

[Pandora II]

In most European countries you are presumed innocent until proven guilty. In Italy you are presumed innocent until the appeal process has finished.

When she was arrested she had only been in Italy for 8 weeks - the guy she accused (after 56 hours of questioning during which she was asked to propose scenarios that might have taken place, and was told that she was so traumatised that she was supressing the memories) was one of the few people she even knew as she worked for him. Where the heck does race even come into it? And other than that incident, where else did she tell lies?

The 'confession' she signed was deemed inadmissable as evidence - but admitted in the civil case that was conducted in front of the same jury at the same time as the actual trial.

She was an idiot in many ways - but that doesn't make her a murderer - and I don't think that she and Casey Anthony can be even remotely compared.

So much of what was put out there was nonsense - the guy in the lingerie shop who told the media that she bought a g-string and laughed about having 'hot sex' later admitted that he didn't speak English or understand anything of what she said.

Jewelfreak - they used Luminol and another chemical to check specifically for blood and no blood was found. There was also no blood from Amanda found anywhere in the house.

(If anyone wonders why I followed this so closely - I spent 6 years living in a nearby town and knew a fair bit about the other case that Mignini, the prosecutor who is a total nutter was involved in.)

I feel very sorry for her and hope she can make a good life for herself and make enough money to at least cover her families expenses - her grandmother alone is now $250k in debt.

I also feel incredibly sorry for Meredith Kercher's family - had the Italian police not gone down the path they did, and had Mignini not decided on day one that it must have been satanic rituals (as he suggests in pretty much every case he gets involved in) then they might have found the actual killers. Instead, they have lost their daughter and face god knows how much in legal fees since their lawyers were pushing them into mounting a compensation claim against Amanda and Raffaele in the hopes of a big payout.

 

[chemgirl]

I remember watching a Dateline special about this years ago. It was before the trial so it wasn't about the case really, but about how media can use your social networking information to make you out to be something you're not. In this case, they made her out to be some sort of sex crazed maniac to try and sell the idea that she was involved in the proposed drug orgy. The Italian news used her Facebook and Myspace to put together this history of unseemly behaviour that just wasn't there. For example, they claimed she referred to herself as "Foxy Noxy" in public. Really it was a nickname used by her soccer team so it showed up in some online posts. There were also "posed sexual pictures" that were not sexual at all. She was in jeans and a sweater! She was posing, but she was clearly just goofing around. I remember thinking that I'd be crucified if the media was after me. I had pictures of myself on a beach vacation, pictures with drinks in my hand, pictures of me sitting on a boyfriend's knee at a party etc.

Even the allegation that she bought lingeri the day after the murders is totally excusable. Her house was a crime scene and she probably needed some clothes and underwear to get by until she could go home. I believe she bought panties/thongs, not a corset and garters!

I don't understand why people are judging her so harshly. I mean it seems pretty obvious that the creepy drifter who's DNA was found all over the place did it. Sure he may have had help, but chances are it was a creepy drifter friend. I think I missed how Amanda had anything to do with that guy.

 

[JewelFreak]

Pandora -- if the luminol indicated no blood, then what's the fuss about her footprints? I realize they actually went from her bedroom to the bathroom (geeze, how incriminating), but w/out luminol evidence, how did the police 1) find footprints at all, and 2) twist them into crime-scene evidence? Or is it another of their dream sequences?

Most tv commentators keep repeating "whoever did this must have had help." Why? As if one man can't rape & kill a young girl by himself -- it's not as if it never happened before. I don't understand it. Seems to me like the usual herd mentality of talking heads: repeat without thinking.

I agree w/Chemgirl, it's puzzling why she's being dumped on so hard. Maybe the lurid sex-crazed prosecutor's allegations color people's vision, maybe it's the "she wouldn't have been arrested if she weren't guilty" thinking. It is even difficult to find a straight story on the exculpatory evidence. Weird & dumb.

--- Laurie

 

[MichelleCarmen]

In most European countries you are presumed innocent until proven guilty. In Italy you are presumed innocent until the appeal process has finished.

When she was arrested she had only been in Italy for 8 weeks - the guy she accused (after 56 hours of questioning during which she was asked to propose scenarios that might have taken place, and was told that she was so traumatised that she was supressing the memories) was one of the few people she even knew as she worked for him. Where the heck does race even come into it? And other than that incident, where else did she tell lies?
The 'confession' she signed was deemed inadmissable as evidence - but admitted in the civil case that was conducted in front of the same jury at the same time as the actual trial.



(If anyone wonders why I followed this so closely - I spent 6 years living in a nearby town and knew a fair bit about the other case that Mignini, the prosecutor who is a total nutter was involved in.)

I feel very sorry for her and hope she can make a good life for herself and make enough money to at least cover her families expenses - her grandmother alone is now $250k in debt.

.

I have no idea about any other lies...I was just pointing out that she had been convicted of that one crime. But, I do feel that she TRUELY was freaked out and didn't know what to do and that was a hasty mistake on her part considering the pressure she was under to escape the possibility of being a suspect. That's only my speculation, though...

The legal expenses are another thing...I think I read her family mortgaged their house to help pay for some of the legal bills and costs of flying to Italy over and over. If she could make enough $ from a book (which I read she is planning to write - but who knows if that is true or just media blitz), hopefully she can clear her bills, take care of family debt, and be able to have funds left to finish her degree, and she will be off to a "fresh" beginning, if there ever can be such a thing. Last night I was reading online and there was an author who's goal it was to write a book proving Amanda was guilty and within a month that author realized, based on the evidence, that she couldn't prove so and ended up writing of Amanda's innocence.

 

[MichelleCarmen]

I remember watching a Dateline special about this years ago. It was before the trial so it wasn't about the case really, but about how media can use your social networking information to make you out to be something you're not. In this case, they made her out to be some sort of sex crazed maniac to try and sell the idea that she was involved in the proposed drug orgy. The Italian news used her Facebook and Myspace to put together this history of unseemly behaviour that just wasn't there. For example, they claimed she referred to herself as "Foxy Noxy" in public. Really it was a nickname used by her soccer team so it showed up in some online posts. There were also "posed sexual pictures" that were not sexual at all. She was in jeans and a sweater! She was posing, but she was clearly just goofing around. I remember thinking that I'd be crucified if the media was after me. I had pictures of myself on a beach vacation, pictures with drinks in my hand, pictures of me sitting on a boyfriend's knee at a party etc.
Even the allegation that she bought lingeri the day after the murders is totally excusable. Her house was a crime scene and she probably needed some clothes and underwear to get by until she could go home. I believe she bought panties/thongs, not a corset and garters!

I don't understand why people are judging her so harshly. I mean it seems pretty obvious that the creepy drifter who's DNA was found all over the place did it. Sure he may have had help, but chances are it was a creepy drifter friend. I think I missed how Amanda had anything to do with that guy.

hahaha - I think we all have something along that line. Time to delete all the photos of being passed out in the back yard! lol

 

[iheartscience]

Pandora -- if the luminol indicated no blood, then what's the fuss about her footprints? I realize they actually went from her bedroom to the bathroom (geeze, how incriminating), but w/out luminol evidence, how did the police 1) find footprints at all, and 2) twist them into crime-scene evidence? Or is it another of their dream sequences?

Most tv commentators keep repeating "whoever did this must have had help." Why? As if one man can't rape & kill a young girl by himself -- it's not as if it never happened before. I don't understand it. Seems to me like the usual herd mentality of talking heads: repeat without thinking.

I agree w/Chemgirl, it's puzzling why she's being dumped on so hard. Maybe the lurid sex-crazed prosecutor's allegations color people's vision, maybe it's the "she wouldn't have been arrested if she weren't guilty" thinking. It is even difficult to find a straight story on the exculpatory evidence. Weird & dumb.

--- Laurie

Yeah the apparent assumption that she is guilty is quite troubling. After reading the Rolling Stone article I linked to earlier, it's obvious that the investigation was incredibly mismanaged, and it made me think she's completely innocent.

 

[Pandora II]

A lot comes down to the way things work with the justice system in small-town Italy where 'la bella figura' is everything.

Once Mignini had decided what had happened he would do anything necessary to twist things to fit his story. It would be a complete nightmare for him and his standing in society if he had to do anything as awful as admit that he was wrong...

It was him who suggested the name of the bar owner to her based on a text message she had sent earlier that evening saying 'see you later'.

IIRC, she sent it in Italian: 'Ci vediamo piu tardi' which in Italy would mean that you intend to meet that person later on that day/evening, not the English 'see you later' which is not time specific. It was therefore suggested to her that here was the proof that she had set up an assignation with the guy with the intention of going to the house for crazy sex rituals etc etc

With the luminol, there was also the issue of the police releasing photographs of the bathroom the girls shared with it covered in luminol (which goes pink and hence made the place look like a slasher movie set) and said that Amanda had taken a shower in there not knowing that her friend was dead. When you actually look at the pre-luminol photos there were very few spots of blood and it would have been very easy to either not see them at all or to think that someone had just cut their finger or something - a nose bleed would have left more blood.

It was Raffaele's father, not the police or the forensics, who went to huge lengths to identify the actual shoes that made some of the footprints - to prove it was not his son.

The prosecutors office were the ones that put about a lot of the snippets of information that were either total lies or placed out of context so that it made her look bad.

It makes me very angry that Meredith's family have been led a merry dance by people more interested in lining their pockets and promoting their careers than finding truth and justice for their daughter.

I'm also sad and angry for Amanda and Raffaele - despite being found innocent (and there were other verdicts available such as 'unproven' or 'not guilty due to a technicality') many, many people are never going to believe that they really are. Amanda in particular has had every aspect of her life dragged through the papers - or rather carefully selected aspects of her life depending on the bias of the media involved. There have been photos of her laughing or smiling in the court which have been deemed to show her as heartless - how could she laugh during something this tragic and serious... well, I bet if I sat in a court-room day after day I could take a photo of any defendant that showed any facial expression I might want. It could have been the only time she laughed in a week, but stick it on the front cover as the 'Angel faced Demon'.

I have no connection to any of the parties involved, but I feel that I can walk a little bit in Amanda's shoes. I first went to Italy when I was 22 on a similar exchange programme. It wasn't my first time away from home by any means, but it was the first time I was in a place where my family and other connections counted for nothing and I could reinvent myself. No-one was going to gossip about 'the doctor's daughter dancing on the tables' like they would at home and I happily admit that I had a fabulous time - so much so I went back for 8 years!

I can see exactly how I could have ended up being portrayed as some wild English girl who wore short skirts, drank more than one G&T on a night out and danced on the bar in nightclubs - not what a nicely brought up Italian girl would do (or so their parents think ).

I also shared an apartment with 4 other girls. After 6 weeks I knew them all and we were on friendly terms and went out shopping or for dinner together, but while I would have been sad and shocked if one of them had been murdered I doubt I would have been distraught - they weren't close friends or family members or even classmates and frankly it would have been odd if Amanda had been hysterical and consumed by grief.

I also know a fair bit about how things work regarding legal matters in Italy. I doubt in Britain or in the USA that the Head of the local traffic police would tell you that since you are a friend of their son, if you get a ticket for speeding, parking or DUI or any other matter then to just call him and it would all be sorted. I know a group of guys who while racing their Ferrari's early one morning as teenagers ran into a man and killed him. It didn't even go to court - the parents clubbed together and paid off the family and the police were all family friends etc. Contacts are hugely important over there.

Italian justice is not something I would put my faith in - I've been suing a company over there for over 10 years now and we still haven't got to the first court hearing. Even if I win, there will be a series of appeals all involving new legal teams and general PITA! Perhaps a cheque will arrive in the post one day but I'm not holding my breath!

 

[Pandora II]

Very good article here: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/8806563/So-who-is-the-real-Amanda-Knox.html

 

[lulu]

Imagine that you are young and in a foreign country with no support system and do not speak the language. You are unsophisticated in legal matters and have no money for an attorney anyway. On top of that, your friend has just been killed. Pretty daunting stuff. False confessions happen far more than people suspect.

Nancy Grace is now putting it out there that Amanda is guilty based on info apparently only Nancy knows. Is Nancy withholding evidence?

 

[Pandora II]

Imagine that you are young and in a foreign country with no support system and do not speak the language. You are unsophisticated in legal matters and have no money for an attorney anyway. On top of that, your friend has just been killed. Pretty daunting stuff. False confessions happen far more than people suspect.

Nancy Grace is now putting it out there that Amanda is guilty based on info apparently only Nancy knows. Is Nancy withholding evidence?

So she stood there egging her boyfriend on and strangely, while one person managed to leave hair, blood, fingerprints and copious amounts of DNA all over the room, Raffaele did not... or perhaps they managed to clean all those up while leaving the rest untouched...

And apparently she 'knows the facts'.

 

[MishB]

I've also read quite a bit about the Monster of Florence case. Due to the police and prosecutors mishandling of that case, the murderer of up to 16 people went free as well.

From the beginning I never believed Amanda Knox was guilty, but I did fear she would spend the rest of her life in an Italian prison.

 

[risingsun]

In most European countries you are presumed innocent until proven guilty. In Italy you are presumed innocent until the appeal process has finished.

When she was arrested she had only been in Italy for 8 weeks - the guy she accused (after 56 hours of questioning during which she was asked to propose scenarios that might have taken place, and was told that she was so traumatised that she was supressing the memories) was one of the few people she even knew as she worked for him. Where the heck does race even come into it? And other than that incident, where else did she tell lies?

The 'confession' she signed was deemed inadmissable as evidence - but admitted in the civil case that was conducted in front of the same jury at the same time as the actual trial.

She was an idiot in many ways - but that doesn't make her a murderer - and I don't think that she and Casey Anthony can be even remotely compared.

So much of what was put out there was nonsense - the guy in the lingerie shop who told the media that she bought a g-string and laughed about having 'hot sex' later admitted that he didn't speak English or understand anything of what she said.

Jewelfreak - they used Luminol and another chemical to check specifically for blood and no blood was found. There was also no blood from Amanda found anywhere in the house.

(If anyone wonders why I followed this so closely - I spent 6 years living in a nearby town and knew a fair bit about the other case that Mignini, the prosecutor who is a total nutter was involved in.)

I feel very sorry for her and hope she can make a good life for herself and make enough money to at least cover her families expenses - her grandmother alone is now $250k in debt.

I also feel incredibly sorry for Meredith Kercher's family - had the Italian police not gone down the path they did, and had Mignini not decided on day one that it must have been satanic rituals (as he suggests in pretty much every case he gets involved in) then they might have found the actual killers. Instead, they have lost their daughter and face god knows how much in legal fees since their lawyers were pushing them into mounting a compensation claim against Amanda and Raffaele in the hopes of a big payout.

I'm glad you posted this so I didn't have to. The crime scene was contaminated and the lack of evidence was more than enough to establish reasonable doubt, at least it should have been. The only hard evidence was the presence of Guede's DNA on and inside of the victim. That would have been difficult to manufacture. The prosecutor had his own agenda and finding the truth was not on it.

 

[risingsun]

Imagine that you are young and in a foreign country with no support system and do not speak the language. You are unsophisticated in legal matters and have no money for an attorney anyway. On top of that, your friend has just been killed. Pretty daunting stuff. False confessions happen far more than people suspect.

Nancy Grace is now putting it out there that Amanda is guilty based on info apparently only Nancy knows. Is Nancy withholding evidence?

Let's send Nancy Grace to Italy so she can explain herself in court. Maybe she would like to spend four years in prison for having a big mouth

 

[Laila619]

I haven't really been following this case that much, so could someone please help me out?

I read that traces of Kercher's DNA were found on a knife blade in Sollecito's kitchen. How in the heck could that be, if they are innocent?

 

[Pandora II]

I haven't really been following this case that much, so could someone please help me out?

I read that traces of Kercher's DNA were found on a knife blade in Sollecito's kitchen. How in the heck could that be, if they are innocent?

A knife was taken from Sollecito's kitchen that Amanda had used to cook with.

The police picked it up out of the drawer because they said it looked clean and shiny. They put it in a plastic bag - not a paper bag as they should have done to prevent contamination.

The knife was tested in the standard way, where the DNA was enhanced and then analysed with electrophoresis which produces a graph with a series of peaks. The heights of the peaks represent quantities of bits of DNA. When you put the peaks together it forms a kind of fingerprint that is unique to an individual.

When the knife was tested, DNA was found that produced a series of peaks that matched Amanda's DNA on the handle. On the blade they found DNA that produced peaks that matched Meredith's DNA.

However, the peaks being there isn't the only thing - the peaks also need to be of a certain height in order to minimise the risk of analysing DNA that comes from contamination. Most labs count peaks above a threshold of 150 RFUs and discount any below 50 RFUs (relative fluorescence units).

With the DNA on the knife, nearly all the peaks were below 50 RFUs (low-count DNA). In a case such as this, the tests should have been re-run to rule out contamination. Not only were tests not re-run, bit the lab was also running tests on other items at the same time increasing the possibility of cross-contamination.

A very sensitive chemical test for blood on the knife was run, and the results were negative. The chances of removing all traces of blood from a knife to the extent that it couldn't be detected by such tests - and yet leaving enough cells to create a DNA profile is extraordinarily low.

When the appeal forensic team tried to re-run the tests, there was not enough of anything to re-run the tests.

In addition, the knife is much, much bigger than the knife that was used to kill Meredith - and doesn't match the bloody print left by the knife on a sheet in the room.

The bra-clasp evidence as equally bad - multiple peoples DNA was found on it, Raffaele couldn't be excluded as being one of them. However, the bra-clasp wasn't picked up off the floor until 47 days after the murder and in video footage of the scene it can be seen in a variety of different places over those day, being picked up, looked at and then dropped a couple of times and finally it was retrieved from a pile of rubbish under a rug and again put in a plastic rather than paper bag. Many of the people who entered the room didn't wear gloves, hats or proper protective clothing.

Neither Amanda nor Raffaele's DNA was found on any other item from the room, whilst Guede's DNA was everywhere. The question I'd like to know was whether there was copious DNA of person/s unknown or just Meredith and Guede's...

 

[Laila619]

Thanks, Pandora!