Am I foolish?

[lucky_charms_guy]

OKay, I have been trying to lurk and learn as much as I can. I hope this isn't too wordy, but I am seeking some insight from those with more experience. I understand that the different labs may not grade as strictly as others, and I have heard many people on here post already that you get what you pay for, but is there a reason I should avoid buying an EGL cert'd diamond vs. lets say an AGS or GIA? Or am I foolish for even considering it?

My reasoning (and this is where I want people to tell me if I am wrong) is that if I start with the basleine assumption that the EGL lab of the diamond I am looking at is off by one grade in color and clarity, I might still be getting a good deal on the stone.

In other words, I am looking at a EGL 1.30ct H/VS1 with a good HCA score, priced around $5500. A diamond with similar numbers with a GIA cert at this vendor shows stones between $8100 and 8700. Now, I know I am not getting a $8700 diamond at a 3k discount, but hear me out.

If I assume that my stone is off one grade in color and clarity, maybe I am getting equivalent of a GIA I/VS2? Those stones cost between 6200-6900 at the same vendor. It still looks like I am getting a good deal. Even if both color and clarity are off by two grades, GIA J/SI-1 looks to be about 5000-5500.

So am I foolish to think that maybe the EGL stones are only one grade off, and I am getting a good deal (maybe because people shy away from those cert's so much) and at the very worst, they are two grades off and I am paying the same "equal money" for a GIA equivalent of a J-SI1? Not to mention, I give my gf a ring that at least on paper has higher "grades" if she is looking for bragging rights?

As long as I am aware of what I am truly getting, is there any downside to this line of thinking? Or is there a fair chance that we are 3+ grades off and therefore I am really not getting what I pay for??

I just want to buy the biggest, sparkliest, ring I can for my future wife (like I am sure many of you also want or wanted to do) so I just want to get the biggest bang for my buck. Just because the actual stone doesn't match the grading report, if I am still getting a good deal on the size and quality of the diamond, am I foolish for approaching my purchase in this manner?

 

[stone-cold11]

Case by case, the stone is usually priced at the correct grade the vendor thinks it should get if grade by GIA/AGS though there are some that are missed. Some are more than 2 grades off.

Then there is also the thing about insurance, and how you will value the piece for insurance.

Finally, upgrades, I think all vendors that have upgrade policies do not have the stones, eligible for upgrades, graded by any lab other GIA/AGS. JA has some IGI stones though.

 

[yssie]

IF you're okay with a J SI1, then as long as it's cut well I see no reason to go for the EGL H VS1 for the same price. You just need to be aware that you're not getting a "good deal" - you're getting exactly the same thing at the same price, the only difference is the paper grade. 'Course, it does help for bragging rights

Ditto SC on the upgrades.

 

[tyty333]

Is is EGL USA, or EGL ISRAEL or EGL (Forgot the other one)? According to most post on this subject you are
better off with EGL USA being less off in color/clarity than the other EGLs. But of course its a stone by stone
evalution.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Date: 3/8/2010 2:02:04 PM
Author: Stone-cold11
Case by case, the stone is usually priced at the correct grade the vendor thinks it should get if grade by GIA/AGS though there are some that are missed. Some are more than 2 grades off.

Then there is also the thing about insurance, and how you will value the piece for insurance.

Finally, upgrades, I think all vendors that have upgrade policies do not have the stones, eligible for upgrades, graded by any lab other GIA/AGS. JA has some IGI stones though.

This is really key. The peopel selling the diamonds are not dummies

If they thought they could get a higher price for the diamond they would.

The risk of EGL diamonds is that unknown component. Is it one grade off? Is it accurate? Is it two grades off? You can send it to an independent appraiser to get an idea of this, and that is very helpful information, but in the end the only way to know what it would be worth witha GIA cert would be to send ti to GIA, which seems like a very big pain in the tush.

All of that said, if you decide to proceed, then have it independently appraised by a reputable appraiser, and then take a cool ahrd look at its price. Look and see what you could get graded by GIA for the *same price*. And then make your decision.

 

[LadyBlue]

I have an EGL H SI1, I have it appraise several times, they say it was a truth H possibly SI 2. If you like it, I will go for it

 

[LadyBlue]

Date: 3/8/2010 4:07:03 PM
Author: dreamer_d

Date: 3/8/2010 2:02:04 PM
Author: Stone-cold11
Case by case, the stone is usually priced at the correct grade the vendor thinks it should get if grade by GIA/AGS though there are some that are missed. Some are more than 2 grades off.

Then there is also the thing about insurance, and how you will value the piece for insurance.

Finally, upgrades, I think all vendors that have upgrade policies do not have the stones, eligible for upgrades, graded by any lab other GIA/AGS. JA has some IGI stones though.

This is really key. The peopel selling the diamonds are not dummies

If they thought they could get a higher price for the diamond they would.

The risk of EGL diamonds is that unknown component. Is it one grade off? Is it accurate? Is it two grades off? You can send it to an independent appraiser to get an idea of this, and that is very helpful information, but in the end the only way to know what it would be worth witha GIA cert would be to send ti to GIA, which seems like a very big pain in the tush.

All of that said, if you decide to proceed, then have it independently appraised by a reputable appraiser, and then take a cool ahrd look at its price. Look and see what you could get graded by GIA for the *same price*. And then make your decision.

This is the exact same thing that I asked my vendor. Why don''t you send the stone to GIA to get a certificate if you are so sure it will comeback as a H SI1-SI2.

He told me that send the stone to the Lab back and forth plus the certificate cost plus the more than 2 weeks being without the stone will cost him around 600. So at the end the difference will be so low that he rather to make the transaction now than in 3 weeks, but that If I wanted I could send it to my expense.

After I went to 2 different independent appraisers and they grade my stone the same, I decided to save the 600 and the 3 weeks away of my new lovely ring.

I don''t think they are dummies, they are business man

 

[LadyBlue]

I forgot to add, that ofcourse you need to have it independently appraised by a reputable appraiser before buying it.

 

[futuremrstildsley]

Just wanted to add my two cents and I''m not saying it happens all the time with every stone, but before I stumbled upon PS and was swimming in all this knowledge, my fiance and I impulsively bought a "0.97 G SI1" radiant graded by EGL. A couple of months later I started having a ton of trouble with the stone, keeping it clean, etc, so we had it appraised twice by independent appraisers and it came back consistently as a color I, I2-I3 and faces up more like a 3/4 carat than a 1 carat because the horrific cut. Lesson learned on that one.

But now I have a gorgeous AVC rock on my finger so I guess it all worked out but I wouldn''t wish that experience on anyone!

Really really do your research and feel comfortable if you buy EGL and definitely have it independently appraised beforehand! Hopefully you get a good one! Good luck!

 

[Dreamer_D]

Gaby I am not trying to say anything about your specific case here, everyone makes their own choices and OF COURSE there are gorgeous diamonds from EGL....

BUT

An EGL 2ct H SI1 (with table and depth in the desired ranges) has a median around $13000 on PS search. A diamond with all the same specs from GIA would be about $5k more. So a line about $600 to recert an EGL stone is just that. A line. Any jeweler in his right mind would definitely send his stone to GIA to command the extra $5000 if he thought he could.

Of course many EGL diamonds would grade similarly by GIA. Many won''t. That uncertainty is why I personally would opt not to go with EGL. But, that same gamble can pay off for a consumer who rolls the dice, too. It is everyone''s personal choice.

 

[LadyBlue]

Date: 3/8/2010 5:25:27 PM
Author: dreamer_d
Gaby I am not trying to say anything about your specific case here, everyone makes their own choices and OF COURSE there are gorgeous diamonds from EGL....


BUT


An EGL 2ct H SI1 (with table and depth in the desired ranges) has a median around $13000 on PS search. A diamond with all the same specs from GIA would be about $5k more. So a line about $600 to recert an EGL stone is just that. A line. Any jeweler in his right mind would definitely send his stone to GIA to command the extra $5000 if he thought he could.



Of course many EGL diamonds would grade similarly by GIA. Many won''t. That uncertainty is why I personally would opt not to go with EGL. But, that same gamble can pay off for a consumer who rolls the dice, too. It is everyone''s personal choice.

Hi Dreamer. We have to remember that a lot of dealers don''t own the stones. I''m sure the cutter sells EGL and GIA with different prices. The Vendor I would thing gets between 5% to 10% margen.

So lets be generous and supposed the Vendor gets 10% to a stone that he can sell for 13,000 he gets 1,181usd profit. A stone that he can sell for 18,000 he gets 1,636usd. So 1,636 - 1,181 = 454usd. Now 600 seems like a very good deal would not you think the same

Some times we think that 5000 is all for the vendor, but the vendor has to buy the stone first to be able to sell it

I''m an accountant, so I''m all about numbers

 

[stone-cold11]

You miss the point.

Using your example.

The EGL stone can be bought for 13000. Profit 1181.

Getting it graded by GIA, you can sell it for 18000. Profit 1636 if you do not own it.

So if he just buy the EGL stone, and then send it to GIA, total cost to him is 13600. But sell the stone as GIA stone at 18000.
Profit 4400.

That is what we are saying.

 

[LadyBlue]

Date: 3/8/2010 8:15:00 PM
Author: Stone-cold11
You miss the point.


Using your example.


The EGL stone can be bought for 13000. Profit 1181.


Getting it graded by GIA, you can sell it for 18000. Profit 1636 if you do not own it.


So if he just buy the EGL stone, and then send it to GIA, total cost to him is 13600. But sell the stone as GIA stone at 18000.

Profit 4400.


That is what we are saying.

1. To be able to buy it the vendor will need 13,000 cash. That he may not have 13,000 to spare.

2. Send it GIA.

3. Find someone that want to buy a 18,000 stone, That can take for a week to 6 months. While He is out of 13,600 cash.

4. He lost the sell of the 13,000 and the 1,181 profit.

We have a spanish say, Mas vale pajaro en mano que ciento volando. That means, It's better bird in hand than a 1000 flying around

 

[stone-cold11]

well, someone has to buy it if it is an in-house stone. Else it is on memo and the cutter mess up. So basically someone mess up it the supply chain and missed the profit.

 

[LadyBlue]

Date: 3/8/2010 8:30:28 PM
Author: Stone-cold11
well, someone has to buy it if it is an in-house stone. Else it is on memo and the cutter mess up. So basically someone mess up it the supply chain and missed the profit.

This is the big question, Most vendors don't have in-house stones anymore. At least I can see the same stone with mostly all vendors.

My question is why the cutters decided to use EGL vs GIA. The only reasons I can find is cultural and timing. Many stones are cut in Israel, India, Belgium etc. Thats why EGL Israel, EGL Europe maybe it's something more than doing business with their own people and GIA takes longer that EGL to grade stones, well I guess cutters want cash ASAP lol. I don't have any idea. That's something I will ask a cutter If I get to meet one some day

ETA: GIA is an American Company, that could one of the factors. Just wondering

thats the 1,000,000 question

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 3/8/2010 8:15:00 PM
Author: Stone-cold11
You miss the point.

Using your example.

The EGL stone can be bought for 13000. Profit 1181.

Getting it graded by GIA, you can sell it for 18000. Profit 1636 if you do not own it.

So if he just buy the EGL stone, and then send it to GIA, total cost to him is 13600. But sell the stone as GIA stone at 18000.
Profit 4400.

That is what we are saying.

exactly !!

 

[Dreamer_D]

Date: 3/8/2010 8:30:28 PM
Author: Stone-cold11
well, someone has to buy it if it is an in-house stone. Else it is on memo and the cutter mess up. So basically someone mess up it the supply chain and missed the profit.

Exactly. And we are talking about the diamond market in N.Am, so cutters selling in N.Am would be well aware of where the profit lie.

This has come up a few times (a few million times) on PS. It is not an insult to people who own EGL diamonds, it is just the realities of the diamond market. There are no "deals" in diamonds.

 

[garek007]

I almost bought an EGL stone. It was a G VS1 EGL-USA versus a G VVS1 GIA stone.

The EGL was around 1300 less, so it seemed like a really good deal.

Since I was buying online, sight-unseen, in the end I decided to go with the GIA. Buying online, I truly was buying ''by the numbers'' and if you''re doing that, I just don''t think you can buy EGL.

I would have considered the EGL if it were in a store and I could see it, see how it stacked up next to the GIA stone. Then it''s not really about the color grade so much as it is about whether or not YOU like it. Still, if you did go into a store to do this, I''d suggest having pricing for two stones, one EGL, the other a similar stone with GIA so that you know if you''re getting a good discount for the EGL stone.

 

[LadyBlue]

Date: 3/8/2010 8:53:41 PM
Author: dreamer_d

Date: 3/8/2010 8:30:28 PM

Author: Stone-cold11

well, someone has to buy it if it is an in-house stone. Else it is on memo and the cutter mess up. So basically someone mess up it the supply chain and missed the profit.

Exactly. And we are talking about the diamond market in N.Am, so cutters selling in N.Am would be well aware of where the profit lie.


This has come up a few times (a few million times) on PS. It is not an insult to people who own EGL diamonds, it is just the realities of the diamond market. There are no 'deals' in diamonds.

Of course are not deals.

You can have the exaclty same Diamond sell
EGL 10,000
GIA 12,000
Tiffany 22,000
Harry Winston 42,000
Graff 60,000

It's all about marketing

I'm not trying to change your point of view. I honeslty thing he should have the Diamond independently appraised by a reputable appraiser before buying it. No matter if is GIA or EGL.

Eta: Forgot to add, stone of a wedding that was canceled. Half price

 

[Dreamer_D]

Date: 3/8/2010 9:06:39 PM
Author: gaby06


Of course are not deals.

You can have the exaclty same Diamond sell
EGL 10,000
GIA 12,000
Tiffany 22,000
Harry Winston 42,000
Graff 60,000

And I am not trying to convince you, but for clarity, we are saying that the *same* diamond from GIA and EGL will cost the same amount. A G SI1 from EGL costs about the same as a I SI2 from GIA, for example. These are the *same* diamonds. Where you see a price difference is when you compare a G SI1 from EGL and a G Si1 from GIA. Those are not the same diamonds.