Am I being tricked or are they just foolish?

[goodsije]

My girlfriend and I have started looking for a ring recently and in the first store, she spotted a ring she immediately loved. It's a full bezel semi-mount and nothing like it that is so simple yet elegant can be found anywhere else we have searched. I've been researching purchasing diamonds ever since I stepped foot in one of the doors and can't seem to determine whether Browne's is the real deal or slightly scamming the customer despite all there great reviews. The loose diamond I'm interested in is a .40 ct, D, SI, CL2+ cut, faceted girdle and they price it around what it should be so I think (which now I learn I should find out a comparison on Rapaport a table). I've even gone and done price comparisons to similar diamonds of online retailers with same/similar 4Cs and checked out the clarity discrepancies. The main issue is that they seem to do most of the reports themselves (who are GIA certified), but do not receive a GIA lab report for this specific diamond (they do for others). Recently I asked how much it would cost to get a report, and they said it would be 250 dollars and that GIA was backed up for 2 months. Well, I just checked online and it says it would only cost 59 dollars (add insurance and shipping costs of course) and they have a 5-10 day turnaround for the current week. My other main gripe is that their warranty is only 4 years, but of course there is a good chance we won't be living in this area after 4 years so a local warranty means nothing anyways except on family visits. So are they trying to stop me from getting this lab report? Wouldn't someone that knows you are very interested opt to get a report so you will buy the diamond? What is going on? Advice please. It's really hard when this rock and ring are exactly what she wants.

Info on the store:
Store is worth 1.5 Million.
In-store goldsmith.
In-store gemologists (GIA certified) with high powered microscope, hence they say they don't need a report since they can do themselves and cheaper.
Allow me to take it outside to look in natural lighting.
They initially taught me about the 4Cs, but I did the rest of my studies online.
They do say they don't get commission on sales, but they could technically say anything.

Bests and Thanks,

J

 

[denverappraiser]

There are at least a few half-truths but I wouldn’t go so far as to say they are scamming you.

As you point out, GIA’s rates are published. Shipping and insurance can add more than lab fees for folks who don’t happen to live in NYC or Carlsbad but $250 for a forty pointer is decidedly high, even with a dealer markup. That said, the cost of lab work on a stone like this is a significant portion of the cost of the stone and it’s pretty common for dealers to try to avoid it when they can.

GIA does not certify gemologists. They are a college and lots of us are graduates but this is not the same thing. Any gemologist worth the title is using a microscope.

Rapaport is irrelevant. There’s an article in the journal section here that might be helpful to explain why.

What the store is ‘worth’ is irrelevant.

Whether or not their salespeople are paid on commission is irrelevant. They get paid, as well they should, and you can bet they get paid more if they sell a lot. That’s not evil, it’s just what salespeople do and the way they get compensated. They’re not there to kill time or to do you any favors, they’re there to SELL stuff. That’s true in every store and every website by the way.

GIA uses some funny arithmetic in their schedule but it’s correct that they are getting more caught up on their workload recently. 5-10 days means 10 business days, which might mean 12 or 15. Packing and shipping takes at least a few days each direction depending on how far away you are and what carrier they use. That means a month out of the store. Not too long ago, 2 month was being fast so I would cut the store some slack on their estimated turnaround time. FWIW, I'm currently telling people 5 weeks and I do follow that website. It's better to underpromise and overdeliver and people would MUCH rather get their stone back early than late.

What’s a CL2+ cut?

 

[goodsije]

denverappraiser,

Thank you very much for your quick reply. Yes, I realize I was a bit rash in my title, I will look into editing it if possible. I'm just a bit frustrated, but I'm very thankful I found a site like this and that people like yourselves populate it. It helps a great deal! I have been browsing the site and been reading lots of articles.

In terms of your remarks about the turnaround. That certainly calms me down to know that info, and was something I was curious about. I've been debating going in and talking to them tomorrow about the report price, and if they would not be willing to lower it, potentially buying the diamond and attaining a written guarantee on their quoted specs, and acquiring on my own since that would be much cheaper. If there is some major discrepancy, I would make sure they would accept a return w/o any restocking fee. This may be a lofty idea, but that's why I bring it to the table because I'm unsure of what things are unheard of in this industry. Though I do believe if a honest vendor wants to make a sale, they would be okay with such steps since they would not be in the wrong.

Regarding your question about the cut. CL2+ refers to Class 2 + cut diamond, so almost Class 1. The relative grading scale to common terminology is found here (http://www.diamondinfo.org/content/ideal-cut-diamonds.php). In this case, the cut is nearly Ideal since it is between Class 1 (Ideal) and Class 2 (Very Fine). When I go in next, I'm going to try to get table size, total depth, etc.

Also, I will ignore Rapaport and read the article.

Thanks again very much and have a great Sunday!

Regards,

J

 

[slg47]

denverappraiser,

Thank you very much for your quick reply. Yes, I realize I was a bit rash in my title, I will look into editing it if possible. I'm just a bit frustrated, but I'm very thankful I found a site like this and that people like yourselves populate it. It helps a great deal! I have been browsing the site and been reading lots of articles.

In terms of your remarks about the turnaround. That certainly calms me down to know that info, and was something I was curious about. I've been debating going in and talking to them tomorrow about the report price, and if they would not be willing to lower it, potentially buying the diamond and attaining a written guarantee on their quoted specs, and acquiring on my own since that would be much cheaper. If there is some major discrepancy, I would make sure they would accept a return w/o any restocking fee. This may be a lofty idea, but that's why I bring it to the table because I'm unsure of what things are unheard of in this industry. Though I do believe if a honest vendor wants to make a sale, they would be okay with such steps since they would not be in the wrong.

Regarding your question about the cut. CL2+ refers to Class 2 + cut diamond, so almost Class 1. The relative grading scale to common terminology is found here (http://www.diamondinfo.org/content/ideal-cut-diamonds.php). In this case, the cut is nearly Ideal since it is between Class 1 (Ideal) and Class 2 (Very Fine). When I go in next, I'm going to try to get table size, total depth, etc.

Also, I will ignore Rapaport and read the article.

Thanks again very much and have a great Sunday!

Regards,

J

GIA does not assign "class 1" and "class 2" cut grades...

 

[goodsije]

She wants a solitare Full Bezel. We really like the fact that the diamond is visible from almost all angles and not completely covered by the bezel. This one is 14kg, we would be opting for 14kwg. This is due to her work and want something durable. She elected not to have platinum because she doesn't like the fact that it is not easily resizable, does not want to wear a ring sleeve if she doesn't have to, and the abliity to get rid of scratches. The bottom of this ring is also an important factor since it is weighted. That's very desirable. Overall, she likes its simplicity yet elegance and beauty.




Price range: The current total is around 2k with diamond. The band is an expense I'm not concerned about yet since we've planned marriage to be about 1-2 years off. I would like to not go very much above that 2k. It might be on the lower end (I'm not sure), but for my current status, this is what fits into my budget, not to mention she feels awkward about having anything that is much more than that for fear of losing, etc.

Overall: 14kwg, full bezel but not covered, weighted bottom. Diamond size not more than .5ct

If there are more questions, don't hesitate to ask. Thanks again so much for everyone's help!

Much appreciated,

J

 

[denverappraiser]

I disagree with what you're reading in that tutorial. The GIA cut grading system does not assign a ‘cut class’ and they do not use the term ‘ideal’. There are 5 grades for round brilliant cut diamonds in the GIA system:

Excellent
Very Good
Good
Fair
Poor

You don’t have, or at least haven't listed, enough information to assign a GIA cut grade and it’s unknown whether or not THEY have enough info. Ask. You can read more about the GIA methodology for cut grading at www.gia.edu.. You can estimate your own cut grading using the GIA tool at www.facetware.gia.edu.. It’s also discussed at length in the tutorials here.

 

[goodsije]

I disagree with what you're reading in that tutorial. The GIA cut grading system does not assign a ‘cut class’ and they do not use the term ‘ideal’. There are 5 grades for round brilliant cut diamonds:

Excellent
Very Good
Good
Fair
Poor

You don’t have, or at least haven't listed, enough information to assign a GIA cut grade and it’s unknown whether or not THEY have enough info. You can read more about the GIA methodology for cut grading at www.gia.edu... It’s also discussed at length in the tutorials here.

I will try to ask them to see if there is some sort of translation to GIA's system. I was confused as well when I was searching online for that description, but that website was the only thing which was able to describe to me what they had said. Thanks again for your help!

Bests,

J

 

[goodsije]

Information regarding GIA Class scale. It was there old system before transitioning to the newer multi-parameter system.


http://www.mmartinjewelry.com/newpage11.htm
Their first cut grading system consisted of four categories designated 1, 2, 3, and 4, with parameter ranges stipulated for each. GIA often stated that there was no one set of parameters that always worked with every stone, and that the final determination of the cut quality should be determined by the gemologist. Most distinctive between the two cut grading systems was always the element of table size. For GIA’s class 1 cut grade, the table size could range from 53 to 60%. The class 2 cut grade allowed a table size of 61 to 64%, also a dimension that could enable a diamond to potentially have optimal beauty. Generally speaking, diamonds in cut class one and two had dimensions that could potentially produce beautiful diamonds, while those in cut grades 3 and 4 did not. This grading system was to be used as a guideline for gemologists and was not promoted on their certificates. (Some research gemologists thought that having only four grades was too broad, and subdivided each category into two parts for a total of eight grades. This, however, was never sanctioned by GIA).

Meanwhile, GIA stepped up their research, but it was not until January, 2006, after many delays, that the new cut grading system for round diamonds was formally initiated. The new system measures seven different parameters of a round diameter before computing a cut grade for the stone. These grades are: excellent, very good, good, fair, and poor. It should be noted that, in the new system, the maximum table size now allowed for a diamond in the “excellent” class was raised to 62%. As an added note, AGS’s new cut grade system is abandoning the 53-57% table concept, allowing diamonds with up to a 61% table to be a candidate for their top, or “zero,” cut.

 

[blinglover78]

Brian Gavin makes a similar setting if you are interesting in purchasing online:

http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/engagement-rings/solitaire/full-bezel-with-bridge-14k-white-gold-5541w14

 

[goodsije]

What happens to warranties or if you need a polish or regular maintenance? We are hoping she will be able to get it checked more often than not since she will be quite rough on the ring. Thoughts? Thanks for the link!

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Well, I will have to say, a diamond needs to have a table between 53 and 60, so if that one does not, I would steer clear! I'd honestly start over and find a certified diamond.

Here is a setting very similar to the one you posted, yet this one looks much better proportioned to me and is fine quality. You do not need the "weighted bottom".

http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/engagement-rings/full-bezel-solitaire-18k-white-gold-5365w18

Then you can go with a certifed ideal cut diamond around .40 and know what you are getting:

http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/diamonds/diamond-details/0.388-I-VS2-Round-Diamond-AGS-104056315034

http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/diamonds/diamond_details/AGS-104057437001

If you go this route, you will end up with a nicer ring, almost guaranteed.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Another beautiful option from WhiteFlash:

http://www.whiteflash.com/engagement-rings/solitaire/cameron-solitaire-engagement-ring-585.htm

http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-2728055.htm ($868 with pricescope/wire discount)

 

[distracts]

She wants a solitare Full Bezel. We really like the fact that the diamond is visible from almost all angles and not completely covered by the bezel. This one is 14kg, we would be opting for 14kwg. This is due to her work and want something durable. She elected not to have platinum because she doesn't like the fact that it is not easily resizable, does not want to wear a ring sleeve if she doesn't have to, and the abliity to get rid of scratches. The bottom of this ring is also an important factor since it is weighted. That's very desirable. Overall, she likes its simplicity yet elegance and beauty.

What does your girlfriend do that will make the ring get banged around a lot? I do think the bezel is a good option for that, and a sturdier shank. I can't see the width of the shank in the picture you posted, but as long as it's 2mm+ wide, it should be good.

I don't know who told you that platinum is not easily resizable, but that absolutely shouldn't be a consideration - platinum is sizeable by any jeweler used to working with platinum. However if the only jewelers near you are not, then I agree that gold is a better option. But if you're in a big city, that should not be a concern. (And what's a ring sleeve? In all my years of being a jewelry hobbyist, I have not heard of that.) Platinum does develop a patina of tiny scratches, but they're easily polished out and not all that detracting. My platinum e-ring, worn for over a year with no polishing, looks only slightly more scratched-up than some brand new sterling silver and rhodium-plated rings I have.

If you like the settings from the other vendors, it's entirely possible that they could customize them to have a euroshanky bottom. Though for a .4 ct diamond in 14k gold, you really don't need it to prevent spin - it simply won't be big or heavy enough to spin a lot.

Diamondseeker has posted some very nice options!

 

[Mico]

jewels by erica grace also has the same setting: http://jewelsbyericagrace.smugmug.com/JbEGSignatureSettingsandSpecia/Plain-and-Pave-Solitaires/The-Rose-Solitaire-Featuring-a/16811221_DWkKGF#!i=1268539607&k=DtxTXSP

 

[LibbyLA]

goodsije,

Unless you get unplated white gold, you are likely to have to get the ring replated with rhodium periodically and if it's ever resized, it will probably have to be replated, as well. White gold isn't necessarily maintenance free and some people are allergic to some metals used in white gold alloys.

liz

 

[distracts]

jewels by erica grace also has the same setting: http://jewelsbyericagrace.smugmug.com/JbEGSignatureSettingsandSpecia/Plain-and-Pave-Solitaires/The-Rose-Solitaire-Featuring-a/16811221_DWkKGF#!i=1268539607&k=DtxTXSP

That's not actually a bezel though.

 

[goodsije]

Wow, thanks for all these awesome replies/ideas!

diamondseeker2006, thanks for all those suggestions. They are all very pretty and I've been showing her all the pictures. They have been the closest so far to what she likes besides the one in the store. She ended up liking Brian Gavin's set better than White Flash due to the boxiness of the later's bezel. Also, thanks for all the diamond suggestions as well. I will certainly keep these in mind. Though just like anything you get online, its very hard to know if you will like it for sure until you have it in hand. Very much appreciated!

Distracts, thanks for all the info regarding platinum. That helped a lot and spurred my own research frenzy on the subject. I looked into rhodium plating and its durability, etc. I certainly like the idea of checking to see if the shank at the bottom could be customized since that seems like it would not to be too much of an issue. The reason for the shank is actually more for its uniqueness and more pleasing to her eye than for weight.

Nicstx, thanks for the suggestion, but like distracts mentioned, we are looking for a bezel or at least semi bezel due to its strength. It was pretty, but we are avoiding the prongs.

LibbyLA, I actually had just finished reading a bunch of articles regarding this very topic and am grateful for the concern and thoughts! I'm starting to lean towards platinum, but I just need to see if I can fit it in my budget since it will be quite a bit more expensive.

Previously I was asked what kind of work she does so I will explain why we are choosing these design requirements. Currently, and probably always, she is working on fixing/remodeling the house. This includes everything from tearing down/putting up walls, drilling, sawing, nailing, sanding, etc. Anything from high to low frequency vibrations or going to be resonating through this ring and she is the type of girl to take it off unless absolutely necessary. So most likely it will have to endure what ever is thrown at it. Furthermore, the ring has to smooth and can't catch easily since her main work is as a massage therapist. This is another reason why I'm leaning towards platinum. I'm not sure if someone could have an allergic reaction to the ring while she is working on them.

Once again, I really appreciate all the help and can't thank all of you enough. It's so awesome to have so many people give up a little time to help us out!

Thanks always,

J

 

[stargurl78]

Another beautiful option from WhiteFlash:

http://www.whiteflash.com/engagement-rings/solitaire/cameron-solitaire-engagement-ring-585.htm

http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-2728055.htm ($868 with pricescope/wire discount)

I love this setting from WF, this gets my vote.

 

[LibbyLA]

goodije,

Your wife to be should really, really, really NOT wear her engagement ring when she's working on the house! It's not safe for her ring and it's not necessarily safe for her fingers.

And probably not when she's giving a massage, for that matter. When working on the house, she probably would be better off not wearing any ring at all, but a plain wedding band would be a better choice if she doesn't want to go without a ring.

Just saying...

I love the weight and sturdiness of platinum but some people don't. She should try on similar rings (maybe wedding bands) in both platinum and gold and see if she has a preference.

liz

 

[tyty333]

Ditto above...GF should not be wearing her ering while remodeling a house!

 

[goodsije]

Thanks to the replies about working with ring on, she is becoming more okay with instead potentially wearing it on a necklace of some sort. Preferably not metal since that could create added wear, but instead leather or some fabric of some sort in conjunction with some easy mechanism to take it on an off the necklace which without worry of losing it. Also, it would be best to keep the ring from bouncing, knocking things, or rubbing if possible. Any thoughts or know of any designs currently out there?

Update on the store. I went in today and talked to them again, and it went much better. There price and turnaround time were guesstimates based on the most recent report. Since the diamond I was incurring about at the store is smaller, it will be cheaper than what they previously stated and they revised their turnaround time to about 1 month. Without asking, they did mention that I could buy the item and send it myself. If there were any issues with the report and their claims, I would be able to return it without any fee. Finally, while this is just one parameter, the table is about 55% and within the 53-60% suggested above.

Thanks for all your help, and I hope you guys are enjoying this as much as I am.

Bests,

J

P.S. Still thinking about settings.....

 

[Amys Bling]

definitely update with photos and information as you have it..

 

[goodsije]

I found another similar setting, but don't understand how the price undercuts all of the other options by a few to several hundred dollars. I understand that it is 14kw, but I can't imagine why the price would be much less than the rest. Is there something I am missing? Could it be due to the quality of the cast/manufacturing? Here is the link:

http://www.since1910.com/engagement/solitaire-bezel-set-diamond-engagement-ring-enr8958-ps3198.aspx

Also, since I don't know much about this jeweler, are they reputable? Thanks!

Bests,

J

 

[Christina...]

There still isn't enough information to determine if this stone will be a good performer. The table measurement is just 1 of many measurements needed to determine it's cut quality. If you had the table, depth, crown, and pavillion angles, you could at least run it through the HCA for a prediction on it's light performance.

I would be uncomfortable purchasing an uncerted diamond from a vendor with the promise that if you send it to GIA for a report and it's not what they claim it is that they will allow you to return the stone. So far, it appears that they haven't told you much of anything about the stone. I would certainly ask that the jeweler give you an opinion on cut, color clarity by currant GIA standards in writing and then suggest that the vendor send it to GIA for the report and if it comes back as being what they claimed than you will purchase the stone and pay for the cost of the report. The diamond will be worth more with the report anyway. And IMO there is a reason that vendors don't send diamonds for grading....because they think they can get more money for it without one. Buyer Beware!

 

[chel180]

this setting is similar to this one you posted:
http://www.jamesallen.com/engagement-rings/solitaire/platinum-petite-bezel-solitaire-diamond-engagement-ring.html

 

[bagelboy]

I agree with Christina post. Most jewelry stores carry diamonds that have lab reports. I would not buy a diamond without a GIA or AGS lab report. Smaller diamonds under 0.25 usually do not have lab reports because the lab report fee would more than the diamond value. The reason that you buy diamonds with lab reports is because that pretty much determines the value of the diamond, without a report it is just a good guess. I would not gamble on the store being accurate in their grading. I hope you realize that diamond cutters who send in diamonds to GIA are wrong on their guessimates about 5% of the time. Yes, guys who spend each and every day looking at diamonds for many years....Wrong!!! And this means thousands of dollars of profit disappearing in a blink of an eye. My wife also works with her hands. She wears two yellow gold bands at work. She wears her engagement ring and wedding band only while shopping and when she knows it won't be accidently damaged. But most of the time it is resting in her jewelry box. I usually wear my ring, but if I am working at work or at home and things get messy, I put my ring in my pocket so it doesn't get all beat up and scratched. Rings are merely a symbol of marriage, not wearing a ring does not change your wedding vows. Although most jewelry offer a warranty of some sort, most only cover replacing very small stones (melee) at best. To really protect your jewelry, you need jewelry insurance. Diamonds can become easily chipped, rings can get lost or stolen, your jewelry warranty is not going to cover that. Oh, a brick and mortar store where you saw this ring has much higher over head costs so they mark up the prices of settings,diamonds and this particular store cut costs by selling uncerted diamonds to uninformed public. Hope this helps!!!

 

[Dreamer_D]

Buy a diamond with a lab report. Why won't the store get one? Because they know the diamond would not come back with the grade they have assigned it in house Consumers do not benefit from buying diamonds without lab reports. It may LOOK like you do if you take their grading at face value, but you cannot take it at face value. Buy a diamond with a lab report. Did I mention you should buy a diamond with a lab report?

That setting you like a stock casting from one of the major casting companies, I think Unique Settings of New York. Most jewlers can order it for you for a very low price.