All That Glitters - Purchased from them before???

[Arcadian]

Has anyone done business with All That Glitters before? I''ve not worked with them before but they have a stone I''ve been eyeing pretty heavily.

Any info would be lovely, thanks!


-A

 

[T L]

I have not, but someone recently showed a stone here she was considering, which was a Mahenge or some sort of hot pink spinel. When she asked them if it had fluor, they didn't know how to check for that.

I find them a bit expensive for some of their material, but they do seem to have a nice selection. I haven't purchased from them before, so I cannot offer you experience.

 

[VapidLapid]

I inquired about a stone. I got a response back that felt icky. Also kind of a hard sell. Saying the price was below wholesale and that they have to raise the price when they get a chance. Which left me thinking well raise the price it cant take more time to log into your website and change the price than it takes to send me an email talking about it. Also the stone I wanted was no longer available. "Everyone wanted the smaller one because it was cheaper and photographed well. The others are fine also, and any inclusions in this material seen in the photos shouldn''t be seen with the naked eye. This garnet is no longer available." I didn''t like the allegation that the stone was wanted for being cheap, nor the implication that so was I for being interested in it. It was the best of the selection, and the lowest priced. It seemed to me that they didn''t care too much what they were saying. Then they spent a paragraph, odd I must say, distractedly bragging about having to send more photos to an unnamed author of an unnamed book on gemstones and implying that their stones will figure prominently in that. Irrelevant and self-aggrandizing, and all of this I had gotten from their website already where it made a no better impression on me. The photos on their website that they labeled as being considered for publication in an upcoming book were not print quality photos at all. Part of their excuse for not being able to provide me with more pictures of the stones available (which I had not asked for) was, "...newer photos will be difficult for the time being. We still have to send more photos of our gemstones to the author of a book on gemstones to be published later this year. Decisions are being made for what All That Glitters inventory will be in the new book." I didn''t like their tone or style, so I did not pursue the lesser stone they were offering at twice the price of the one I inquired about.

This is my opinion and my interpretation of their response. Others'' experiences may vary.

 

[Arcadian]

Very interesting. I had asked about if a stone I was interested in was heated and was told probably not but they didn't know. I guess that in and of itself makes me somewhat hesitant, and Vapid, I had gotten something of the same response to about being below wholesale.

Though I'm still thinking about the stone, I'm going to show the pic. Its pretty but well...you know...

Its a Dusky Rose (Imperial) Zircon 4.20cts. Sometimes they're heated, sometimes they're not which isn't a terrible deal since zircons usually are. However, if not heated the color fetches a heck of a lot more per ct...we all know that.

This is definitly a glamour shot and they did tell me it would be a shade darker. Ok thats good to know at least.

I shot off an email after I checked availability and asked if the stone was heated or not. Because I know most likely they are, I'm certainly not put off by that fact, but you know how we do; its a disclosure thing. The last email I received they told me its probably not heated because of its color but its possible it could be. Um... not exactly the answer I was looking for??


I will ask them about any certs for the stone. Its worth a shot.

Also, the tone of the email was fine...they're in Massachusetts so I'm used to it..

-A

 

[T L]

Arcadian,
Did you see Gene's Zircon #957. It's heated, but he told me it's a very fine color for a rose zircon. It's also very reasonable and cut superbly. I guess I'm always suspect of places that don't know their own material well enough to check for heat treatment or other enhancements.

 

[LD]

I haven''t used them so can''t be of any help but I have to say I''d be nervous if they didn''t know whether the stones they had in inventory had been heated or not! Surely we rely on vendors to know this information? I can''t decide whether it''s refreshingly honest or bad practice to admit to not knowing!

 

[LD]

Just read this on their website:

"Orangy-Colored Sapphire Warning:

Over the past year or so, a new enhancement technique is being used. Sapphires of an orangy color may have been diffused. This treatment involves the heating of natural sapphire with Beryllium. The Beryllium diffuses into the sapphire crystal structure and changes the color of the sapphire - typically causing an orange color, increasing the desirability and the saleability of the sapphire. This technique of enhancement is not easily detected and is very often not disclosed. Many orangy sapphires have appeared on the market recently, as well as the rare Padparadscha color. Please be advised that orangy-colored sapphires might have been diffusion treated using this process.

Note that all orangy-colored sapphires in our inventory are a minimum of several years old and therefore DO NOT have this form of enhancement. Because of this process, we are not purchasing material which falls into this color range unless it has been certified by a lab that the color is natural.

Should you wish orange colored sapphires, please contact us with your needs. We will continue to seek out good colored, faceted orange sapphires, but unless they are determined to be of natural color by a gemological lab, they are suspected to have been diffusion treated. Please be aware that most of the material out there in the market are indeed diffusion treated and the colors may extend into other colors beyond pure orange."

The bit in red seriously worries me. Just because a stone is over 2 years old, how on earth can they be certain that it''s not BE treated???? I know for a fact that BE sapphires were being sold in the UK 5 years ago! I have to say that some of their Sapphires look a bit too good to be true and do look like BE treated sapphires. I realise that''s a big assumption but if it''s only orange/pink sapphires that they''re sending for testing .......................

 

[Arcadian]

TL, yeah I did ..... I like the color though I''m not extremely fond of the shape. I''ve got 2 trillion shaped stones in my entire collection. I wish I gravitated to them more. Gene is always great about disclosing treatment and its a stone I did think about.


LD, giiiirrrrrlll..... LOL I can''t say I know what to think either! I''m half refreshed and half like

Will see what they say about a cert or lack thereof. Some of their stones do appear to be certed, so its worth asking.



-A

 

[Michael_E]

Date: 4/24/2010 6:22:31 PM
Author: Arcadian
Very interesting. I had asked about if a stone I was interested in was heated and was told probably not but they didn''t know.
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.
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Sometimes they''re heated, sometimes they''re not which isn''t a terrible deal since zircons usually are. However, if not heated the color fetches a heck of a lot more per ct...we all know that.

Interesting observation, particularly that, "we all know that". The only problem with this is that, in zircon, there is now way to tell if a stone has been heated if it doesn''t have any distinctive inclusions. Many zircons are worth more when heated since their colors can be improved dramatically and even and those which haven''t been heated are not worth more, because lack of heating can''t be verified. Since everyone, in the trade, only cares about the way a zircon looks and there''s no effective way to tell if one has been heated, it really shouldn''t be surprising that a seller doesn''t know. I''ve never known and have never thought to ask about the roughs I''ve purchased, because I''m very certain that the sellers wouldn''t know, (although that wouldn''t keep them from claiming that they were unheated if it meant a sale). If you get too picky about these things you are often opening yourself to having smoke blown in your direction, so why bother ?

 

[Arcadian]

Michael, its more of the fact they can't tell me than not. Zircons tend to be heated true, and as I've said I don't have an issue with it. If I did, I wouldn't have so many in my collection.


And I have to say that from my own personal experience, a zircon of that color thats unheated will always be more expensive than one that isn't. Blues of course we know they'll be heated, a heated green will sell for less than a nonheated green, especially if its within whats considered "ideal" color range.

Basically you're telling me that asking if a stone is heated or not from a vendor opens a can of worms.

You know what, so be it. Its my right as a consumer to make the best informed decision that I can for what I buy, and I have no problems using that. I asked a basic question, considering the stone. They gave me back a confusing answer. Who wouldn't give pause if they know anything about stones?



-A

 

[VapidLapid]

Kind of odd that disclosure of uncertainty. I too wonder if it is a conscious honesty or unconscious default. On their website it is also odd that sometimes they disclose that a stone has been heated and sometimes they announce unheated as though it''s the last unheated stone on earth. Yet on many, and I''m talking stones that are commonly heated and worth more unheated, they don''t say anything about it. Now I, as a consumer, do not want to get involved in long exchanges of emails to find the treatment history of fifteen sapphires that I may be considering whether I am looking to buy only one or all fifteen. Actually at that level of browsing I don''t want to have any contact. I prefer to put together my list of what I would be interested in my self and then decide which ones I want to inquire about. I know that''s just me other people can be different.

As for the zircon you showed it is very pretty. I am really picky with stones like zircon though; I only like them when they have been cut spot on the optical axis of the crystal. It eliminates the birefringence seen straight through the table and then it (the birefringence) increases as the angle of view moves away from the perpendicular center. I have had my eye on that one on Gene''s site for a few months and i think it is totally a perfect stone. the color of amazing , and the depth and texture of it is like, tactile. It looks like dried petals, the passage of time is palpable in it; it puts the "mauve" in "mauvais". I am also not a fan of trilliant cuts. They do not do it for me. And yet a month ago I got a yellow tourmaline trilliant that is one of the few stones that just sings to me. You might want to look at that one again while you can; at least until I am showing it off in a new thread of recent purchases...unless you beat me to it.

 

[Michael_E]

Date: 4/24/2010 7:48:12 PM
Author: Arcadian
Basically you''re telling me that asking if a stone is heated or not from a vendor opens a can of worms.

No, not a can of worms, but you are asking a question that I don''t believe can be answered.

Its my right as a consumer to make the best informed decision that I can for what I buy

Exactly, and to make an INFORMED decision you need to know that there is no way to know if a zircon has been heated or not. If someone is telling you that a particular stone is unheated, particularly at an inflated price, then you should have some suspicions. Unless I just can''t find the reference information, I would have to say that no lab will give an opinion that a zircon is unheated and so you may or may not be paying for what you think you are getting. Regardless of what anyone says, I would suspect that every cut zircon is heated. If a seller makes a claim otherwise, please ask what evidence they have for that, as I''d really like to know.

 

[Arcadian]

Michael, maybe we're somehow missing each other because we're both saying the same stuff. I've never purchased from this vendor before which is why I had the question.

The stone, I love it, and yes I actually do have a zircon of similar color, though quite a bit smaller thats certified as unheated by AGL. However, I do know that they can come heated.

That part is neither here nor there and not even a big deal.


The big deal is this; When I asked the vendor if its heated or not (and I ALWAYS do), I got a very ambiguous answer.

I don't know about you but I base further investigation (or not) on a gemstone based on answers received. Being the answer was abmiguous to me, does give me pause, given the cost per ct of the stone.

Ok that said

Considering how much the stone is, how much I KNOW a stone of that color can cost unheated, of course I asked. Maybe I'm being obtuse, but yes there are still some vendors who know what they have and if its heated or not heated and there are those that will try to feed you a line if they think you'll fall for it. I'm not mega experienced but I know enough to feel out a vendor if I think I'm being feed bullisht.


Given the their answer I was going to ask them if they would agree to cert the stone. They of course can do whatever they want with that; either ignore it or not, no skin off my nose because I'm sure I'll be able to find yet another pretty stone.


So with that I'm hard pressed to find out why I'm getting side eye from you and you're thinking I'm doing something wrong here.


-A

 

[Michael_E]

Date: 4/25/2010 2:18:20 AM
Author: Arcadian
So with that I'm hard pressed to find out why I'm getting side eye from you and you're thinking I'm doing something wrong here.

-A

You're not doing anything wrong, but you do seem to believe two things which I can not find any basis for. They are:

1. That a gemologist or lab can definitively tell whether a zircon has been heated.
2. That unheated zircons have a higher value on the market.


I can not find anything that would support these two ideas anywhere and have found some evidence to make me believe that these two assumptions are not valid. For the first assumption that a lab can tell for sure that a zircon has been heated please read the note under treatments in the Gemology Project Wiki on zircon:** Link removed by moderator. No links to outside forums or blogs**

The second assumption that unheated zircons have a greater value in the market would probably be true if the first assumption were correct. Since it is not correct, (and I've never seen higher prices in the market for "untreated" zircons, but only for those with better color), I can only believe that this assumption is not correct as well.

For some very interesting information on low temperature heat treatment of zircons see this thread:
**Removed by Moderator. See above**

It's clear from this little heating experiment that dramatic improvements in color can be had with very low temperature increases that would not cause traceable changes to most inclusions which would be found in zircon, leaving a gemologist with no way, at present, to tell if this treatment had been done.

My concern with the belief that heat treated gems have an automatically lower value in the market is that it is only correct for certain gems in which heat treatment can be determined, such as sapphire, and this effect can't be automatically extended to all gems. Some gems are routinely heat treated with no ability to tell if this has been done and no difference in price on the market, (other than that caused by increases in attractiveness). Zircon and some tourmaline come to mind here.
My comments are not meant to demean your views, but rather to keep you, and others reading this, from getting the wrong impression about heat treatment and gem values, and perhaps paying an inflated price for something which can't be determined.

 

[VapidLapid]

Thank you Michael, I think it is very interesting to find that labs and gemologists cannot determine the heating history of zircons. Also interesting in the details of the heating to find that some are heated high, then cooled and heated again to 900. Even more odd for me was learning that a crystal decomposing by radioactive decay can be restored by heating!
It doesn''t seem to me that this has much to do though with Arcadian''s post. She was clear that her interest in the stone was unaffected by the heating status. I was of the opinion that her concern was ultimately one of confidence in a vendor. Her confidence in this vendor was potentially compromised by their ambiguous response to her asking about treatment. They did not provide a context to the issue of heating zircon as you have and had they then their response would have not been ambiguous but rather full and informative. Perhaps they don''t have the information themselves or just didn''t care to get into it with her. At any rate if a potential client makes contact and asks a specific particular question then they deserve a full and informative response. Also this stone is priced at what seems to me double the market norm. That makes one want to ask lots of questions. Regardless of the routine-ness of the heating of zircons, some do make it to market unheated. Not all cutters can know for certain but when someone like Gene at Precision goes to africa into the mines buys the stones directly from individual owners of small mines or large right as the stones come out of the hole and brings them back himself to cut and he says it''s unheated or that he heated it then I would say that the stone''s treatment history can be known. When I bought rough zircon from Jeff Graham and he said these ones were heated but these were not I was confident that he knew what he was saying. Regardless of whether one believes that heat treatment of zircon has a bearing on market value, we as consumers do see it available and variously advertised as heated and unheated. That may not be a criterion for the general market, but it may be for an individual regardless of whether is can be determined after the fact. Many of us here are accustomed to buying from cutters who acquire their rough in a reasonably direct fashion and can know the status of their stones. So asking is not necessarily invalid.
Again though, I have to say that the heating is not the issue here. The stone was far above market pricing. The response to a common question in the gem industry was pointedly vague. Asking others if they''ve had experiences with this vendor is the right thing to do. I have issues with other unsubstantiated claims on their website. I don''t think it legitimate to claim a stone was "faceted by Master Cutter and AGTA Cutting Competition Winner" and not say who. Many of their stones are advertised this way. If they can''t say who because of an agreement with the cutter then I don''t think they should use the cutter''s resume since there is then no verification. They should simply say precision cut. Or here the suggestion that they are offering something fabulous and POSSIBLY certifiably padpardascha, "This is one of those few gemstones that we feel that GIA or AGTA might just cert as a Pad! ", and here of another sapphire, "(We may be sending this to AGL for testing. If it is determined and certed to be a Pad, expect the price to be much higher.)" Just submit it. if it get certified say so, if not, you got nothing. I think that is consciously misleading. Then there is their orangey sapphire warning that was mentioned by Arcadian. Having something in stock for 5 years is not a criterion for knowing it to be BE free or unheated. Making these claims and allusions can compromise the confidence and that an educated potential buyer needs in a gemstone seller.
I know that I am sometimes tough on sellers for the way they represent themselves. As consumers we are the buying side of the marketplace and we have a responsibility to call it like we see it. I know also that Michael tries to keep these discussions fair and balanced, often sharing what the view may be from the other side of the discussion or cash register, and that contribution is valuable. The heating of zircon is an interesting subject, but was not the issue that Arcadian brought to the forum.

 

[Arcadian]

Ok michael, on the heating issue, we''re going to have to agree to disagree. On the color issue, I''m going to disagree with you there to and leave it at that. Blue zircons are heated, which is something thats known, however, I don''t doubt if they came in the same color blue unheated they would be worth MORE in their unheate state.

Thats all I''m saying on that issue.

If you want to go into the merrits of heated and unheated zircon, start a new thread I''d be happy to participate as long as it dosen''t get to sciency.

Now, if you''ve done business with these people and want to add to the OP, please do because I''d like to have something concrete about these people, thanks.

-A

 

[Michael_E]

Date: 4/25/2010 6:43:42 PM
Author: VapidLapid
The heating of zircon is an interesting subject, but was not the issue that Arcadian brought to the forum.

Post number four in this thread and Arcadian said, "I had asked about if a stone I was interested in was heated and was told probably not but they didn''t know. I guess that in and of itself makes me somewhat hesitant"

I had thought that Arcadian may be interested in knowing that they CAN''T KNOW whether it was heated or not. Very simple. I am not trying to defend anyone or to offer some alternate viewpoint, just stating the facts from a gemological standpoint, at least as they exist right now. As for actually discussing other vendors, sorry, can''t help there...against forum policy.

 

[Indylady]

Besides what has been discussed, I read this comment on rubies on All That Glitters:
"They have a really fine ruby red color under incandescent, which is where Ruby should be viewed. (Sapphire looks better under fluorescent - the Chromium within the Ruby "pops" under incandescent." link I thought it was kind of an odd comment/blanket statement to make, esp. considering it doesn''t mention flouro at all.

 

[chrono]

I purchased a 3 ct step cut (modified asscher) spessartite from ATG about 5 years ago. The transaction was seamless and quick but I felt that he was a bit pushy, insisting that if I don’t keep the stone, it’ll sell to a jeweller ASAP. I eventually returned the spessartite within the return period as I felt it had too much brown for me and the refund was quick and easy. I have been keeping up with his newsletter and updates just to look at his inventory even though I feel that they are on the more expensive side.