**All In A Day Of Diamond Shopping**

[prelude4]

Finally got a call from the diamond store to view the diamond i ordered. Went dwn to the boutique happily today with my gf in tow and had a brief encounter with the general manager cum gemologist. She showed me the diamond i requested for and the GIA cert for it.

.54cts / E colour / vs1 / EX cut / EX polish / VG symetry

Armed with watever knowledge i picked up and learn myself from PS..i decided to pose some newbie questions to the petite lady
and this is how our conversation goes..

Me: Hey, the arrows doesn''t seem to align neatly(upon viewing frm the scope)

Her: Oh..actually, H&A is juz a GIMMICK tat most people will want to show to u, but it doesn''t really constitute or by this fact
alone makes a good diamond.

Me: Well..but then why when i view other diamonds their arrows can be real sharp n align perfectly in a row..?

Her: H&A is juz something introduced and patented by this Co. called HOF ( Hearts on Fire). Im a GIA gemologist,
we don''t comment or grade on H&A, like i say its juz another GIMMICK. Every company has 1. You hear stuffs like
"Brilliant rose", "Ideal Cut"..etc. I only follow the GIA report. According to the report, this diamond is of
excellence cut and is more than enough assurance you need. **slightly irritated**

Me: Hmm..how about the brilliance and scintillation of this diamond?

Her: Like i say all these r juz GIMMICKS tat other stores will want to tell you. I can''t comment on tat. you have alot of
misconceptions like most people do. Im a GIA certified gemologist. I can only comment n grade according to the GIA report.
***giving me tat u-don''t-know-a-thing look***

Me: Hmm..wat about Ideal Scope? you have this gadget in ur shop so i can use to take a look?

Her: You mean like Firescope?

Me: Yeah..something like tat.. I read about how it can judge a diamond''s brilliance by showing how much light passes thru n stuff..

Her: No i don''t. Like i said u have alot of misconceptions on diamonds. Its juz some GIMMICKS by others. Everyone have different
GIMMICKS to grade diamonds. Im a GIA certified gemologist. I follow according to how GIA grade a diamond. The report reflects
the facts on the diamond. The GIA report is assurance on the quality of the diamond. I don''t mind if wat you''ve heard from
elsewhere and u decide to purchase from them instead. Here, we talking about GIA..
Me: But if wat u said is true, then the diamond will still show up as good when put under other GIMMICKS like the Ideal Scope?
***im still pushing it..***
Her: No we don''t have it. Like i said u can llisten to those GIMMICKS. Im a GIA gemologist. I can only tell u according to the report.
This report says it all.
she totally blew me apart man!

Not to mention tat when she told me i have "alot of misconceptions" she got this totally snobbish look on her face juz becos she took a course on gemology and received a cert for it..
But wat i wanted to know is if she''s really right in wat she says. Mayb im juz a newbie and still got alot to learn...but i feel that
she''s abit arrogant in her way of putting dwn other''s "Gimmick" in view of her one-and-only-authentic-way to even speak about diamonds..
i apologise for the long text peeps..but i don''t know a better way of putting out these questions

 

[JulieN]

A GIA report just tells you what it is. It doesn''t tell you if it''s nice.

 

[Regular Guy]

Date: 6/29/2007 1:43:34 PM
Author:prelude4

According to the report, this diamond is of excellence cut and is more than enough assurance you need.

These conversations can be fun, etc. but generally, I think it makes sense to bootstrap as much as you can. The fact that it is now (not 2 years ago, when cut was not documented) described as excellent could provide a beginning to meet and discuss. For example, her and GIA''s standards for excellent cut may or may not match yours. We still don''t know things like crown & pavilion angles, also documented, that could lead to disagreement or agreement about this. From her, or from us.

Others on this board will agree with the arrows thing. From there, yes, things went down hill. There''s a saying on this board...buy the diamond, not the paper. Same could be said for the "patter." Did you go to this shop for other things you liked about it? If so, and if they''re still there...I still don''t know if that particular diamond is any good. It might or might not be.

Bring your own scope. Learn together. Fight ignorance with information as much as you can. Thank goodness for Pricescope, right?

 

[Cehrabehra]

Well.... in a way she is right. yep, I said it. Not everyone likes H&A - some prefer the more splintered chaos of a non-optically symetrical diamond. Creating a tool to recognize it is kinda gimmicy. If you *want* H&A then it is a useful tool, but if you don''t, then it is an unnecessary gimmic. A stone can have ideal ranges of light return without optical symmetry. A stone can be 100% beautiful to your eyes without it and many feel just that way.

Ditto the idealscope. If you want to find a stone with a great deal of light return and you want a tool to help you find this, then the idealscope can be another useful tool. But so can your eyes. There are stones out there that for several reasons might be MORE attractive than others that get better IS readings. Seeing stones in person is key. When you are on the internet these tools (and the photos that accompany them) are VERY useful as we cannot see the stones prior to purchase.

I''m not saying you should work with someone who doesn''t embrace these tools - you have to work with someone you''re comfortable with. But some still choose to work off of their eyes and have been successful to do so for a very long time and I don''t know *anyone* here who would say that they aren''t THE best tool of all.

And on top of all of this is the subjective nature of exactly *what* we find attractive. The H&A and IS can be used to find a certain ideal, but personal preference can negate the results of both.

Bottom line, the GIA cert gives you numbers and not analysis. You can use a hundred tools to analyze or you can use your eyes. Or both. I''ve heard a lot of goofy things from salespersons and I probably wouldn''t feel comfortable working with this woman, BUT what she was saying was relatively low on the red flag meter to other things I''ve heard LOL

 

[parkerj]

If the manager of the place was condescending to you and acted like you were a pain because you were trying to learn something, go somewhere else!!!!!!! There are a zillion wonderful jewelers out there that will gladly answer any questions you have and appreciate the fact that you are trying to be an informed consumer. Buying a diamond should be an exciting, fun thing to do--not stressful and make you want to hurt someone.

 

[cinnamon013]

Date: 6/29/2007 5:46:34 PM
Author: parkerj
If the manager of the place was condescending to you and acted like you were a pain because you were trying to learn something, go somewhere else!!!!!!! There are a zillion wonderful jewelers out there that will gladly answer any questions you have and appreciate the fact that you are trying to be an informed consumer. Buying a diamond should be an exciting, fun thing to do--not stressful and make you want to hurt someone.

Agreed!

I have been into quite a few B&Ms recently, and heard lots of uninformed salespeople. You can chuckle and do a little jig in these situations!

Use the B&M for window shopping. Do your purchasing online with one of the PS vendors after you''ve found out what you like in person.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 6/29/2007 1:47:10 PM
Author: JulieN
A GIA report just tells you what it is. It doesn''t tell you if it''s nice.

sorta.. It tells you what is GIA''s opinion of what it is.

 

[Modified Brilliant]

Date: 6/29/2007 1:43:34 PM
Author:prelude4

Finally got a call from the diamond store to view the diamond i ordered. Went dwn to the boutique happily today with my gf in tow and had a brief encounter with the general manager cum gemologist. She showed me the diamond i requested for and the GIA cert for it.

.54cts / E colour / vs1 / EX cut / EX polish / VG symetry

Armed with watever knowledge i picked up and learn myself from PS..i decided to pose some newbie questions to the petite lady
and this is how our conversation goes..

Me: Hey, the arrows doesn't seem to align neatly(upon viewing frm the scope)

Her: Oh..actually, H&A is juz a GIMMICK tat most people will want to show to u, but it doesn't really constitute or by this fact
alone makes a good diamond.

Me: Well..but then why when i view other diamonds their arrows can be real sharp n align perfectly in a row..?

Her: H&A is juz something introduced and patented by this Co. called HOF ( Hearts on Fire). Im a GIA gemologist,
we don't comment or grade on H&A, like i say its juz another GIMMICK. Every company has 1. You hear stuffs like
'Brilliant rose', 'Ideal Cut'..etc. I only follow the GIA report. According to the report, this diamond is of
excellence cut and is more than enough assurance you need. **slightly irritated**

Me: Hmm..how about the brilliance and scintillation of this diamond?

Her: Like i say all these r juz GIMMICKS tat other stores will want to tell you. I can't comment on tat. you have alot of
misconceptions like most people do. Im a GIA certified gemologist. I can only comment n grade according to the GIA report.
***giving me tat u-don't-know-a-thing look***

Me: Hmm..wat about Ideal Scope? you have this gadget in ur shop so i can use to take a look?

Her: You mean like Firescope?

Me: Yeah..something like tat.. I read about how it can judge a diamond's brilliance by showing how much light passes thru n stuff..

Her: No i don't. Like i said u have alot of misconceptions on diamonds. Its juz some GIMMICKS by others. Everyone have different
GIMMICKS to grade diamonds. Im a GIA certified gemologist. I follow according to how GIA grade a diamond. The report reflects
the facts on the diamond. The GIA report is assurance on the quality of the diamond. I don't mind if wat you've heard from
elsewhere and u decide to purchase from them instead. Here, we talking about GIA..


Me: But if wat u said is true, then the diamond will still show up as good when put under other GIMMICKS like the Ideal Scope?
***im still pushing it..***


Her: No we don't have it. Like i said u can llisten to those GIMMICKS. Im a GIA gemologist. I can only tell u according to the report.
This report says it all.


she totally blew me apart man!

Not to mention tat when she told me i have 'alot of misconceptions' she got this totally snobbish look on her face juz becos she took a course on gemology and received a cert for it..
But wat i wanted to know is if she's really right in wat she says. Mayb im juz a newbie and still got alot to learn...but i feel that
she's abit arrogant in her way of putting dwn other's 'Gimmick' in view of her one-and-only-authentic-way to even speak about diamonds..
i apologise for the long text peeps..but i don't know a better way of putting out these questions

Too bad she doesn't even know the proper title for her credential

No such thing as a "GIA certified gemologist."
GIA doesn't certify anyone or anything. The proper designation is Graduate Gemologist (G.I.A.). There are a few other variations also.

www.metrojewelryappraisers.com

 

[prelude4]

Oh..no wonder the lady act as if im crawling up her neck..to be fair, she got a point too.

Actually i understand her feelings man, mayb everyday lots of uninformed clients go up to her and
demand so many things..
or she takes pride in knowing her diamonds so she feels indignant tat so many
gimmicks obfuscate the true meaning of a real good stone..

With so many difference in perspective in retrospect to the present, coupled with so many gadgets and fueled
by all those "GIMMICKS" and dunno who to turn to...

Thank God I have Pricescope!

 

[WorkingHardforSmallRewards]

I am going to have to agree with the idea that if she was being disrespectful to you for expressing what you have learned and trying to learn more then just move on.

After getting both of my recent diamonds I brought them in to the most trust worthy and knowledgeable local jeweler I had encountered on my quest. We sat around the show room for a while talking about cuts both times and the different aspects of hearts and arrows, etc. He was the first person that actually showed me a diamond through a scope to view the arrows actually, though I have a bit more experience now. Then just today I went in to buy a little pouch for my gf to keep the ring if she ever needs to, he gave me a little silk zipper pouch for free and inspected my second diamond with me. I commented on how the show room lights made it so brilliant and he took me in the back under grading lights to inspect the color of my diamond and so on. Basically, there are some really great jewelers out there who love what they do and care about their customers, and even those like me who are not their customers! (hopefully I can at least get some wedding bands from him in the future though) so if she is being mean and rude and doesn't have something you just HAVE to have, then just move on until you find someone like him.

Then even if you do have some different understandings you can communicate well and see each others points of view and have a truly valuable relationship with a jeweler. From what you said this woman just doesn't make the cut in my book, whatever the reasons for her behavior, and I say move on until you find someone that you can have a really wonderful relationship working with, rather than someone that can just look up diamonds for you. Anyway, that is what I look for anyway, but maybe it is asking too much?

Also, as a final note, if she actually said that the GIA excellent cut is sufficient for her to be confident in the diamond being beautiful then I think she is a little confused. At the very least she should have addressed that the GIA cut allows for a wide variance of cut possibilities, each which have their own unique characteristics and appearance and thus some would appeal to one and not to another. Afterall, the GIA cut is largely based on beauty--which we all know is in the eye of..well, you know. Where as AGS ideal's are more about light return and a narrower set of parameters and are all therefore going to be fairly uniform in appearance. Thus if she really understood the GIA cut she should pass that knowledge on to you and help you select one of those excellent cuts that really speak to you in your understanding of beauty, rather than just pulling out one and assuming it will be good enough. And as a final final thought if she actually said that "IDEAL" cuts are a gimmick then get the hell out of their for sure, because the AGS ideal cut is HIGHLY respected and if she went so far as to call it a gimmick I would venture to say she has no passion for her job and doesn't try to learn anything other than what she has to learn to make a buck. Anyway, thats my thoughts, but I am an amateur like yourself!

 

[strmrdr]

You really do have to feel sorry for people who feel that they have so and so cert/degree/award/paper so that''s all they have too learn.
That''s the problem with paper without continuing education requirements.
It can take a hundred hours a year to just barely keep up with the changes happening right now and some people just cant or wont spend the time.
The smartest move GIA could make is too require 40 hours of continuing education a year to keep your title.

 

[junior35]

I agree with Sara. Coming from a diamond manufacturing background I can tell you that there are sometimes optically pleasing traits in a diamond that pure specs and all the optical gizmos will just not reveal. Conversly,you can have a diamond like the Leo Cut which has all the brilliance,scintillation etc.etc. specs up to par,but which (if you ask any polisher) looks more like a proctologist''s dream.And I won''t elaborate!

 

[rocks&purses]

LOL!

 

[marcy]

I sat here shaking my head in agreement as I read your post. It is so annoying. I went the rounds one time with a mall jewelry salesperson about cut / make. She kept saying "heart". I said, I know that''s the shape but what about make / cut like ideal, excellent, very good. She never did get what I was asking. It''s like, never mind.

 

[Regular Guy]

Date: 6/29/2007 1:43:34 PM
Author:prelude4

Finally got a call from the diamond store to view the diamond i ordered.

I''m not sure if there was any mutual learning here. You did decide to ask this store to order up a diamond on your behalf, so you could consider it. I assume they asked no charge from you for this...just good will, and they assumed the associated costs for this. Sounds like, if you had noted the specs not yet mentioned in this post, including crown Pavilion angles, etc., and we said on this board from these still unknown specs that it was a winner...that you would be hesitant to buy from this woman, based on your treatment from her.

Consider then, next time, asking some due diligence questions first, before you do ask them to act on your behalf. You may find again another seller you''re not happy to deal with, regardless what they tell you.

Or, did I misunderstand what happened?

 

[WorkingHardforSmallRewards]

Date: 6/30/2007 5:46:02 PM
Author: Regular Guy



I'm not sure if there was any mutual learning here. You did decide to ask this store to order up a diamond on your behalf, so you could consider it. I assume they asked no charge from you for this...just good will, and they assumed the associated costs for this. Sounds like, if you had noted the specs not yet mentioned in this post, including crown Pavilion angles, etc., and we said on this board from these still unknown specs that it was a winner...that you would be hesitant to buy from this woman, based on your treatment from her.


Consider then, next time, asking some due diligence questions first, before you do ask them to act on your behalf. You may find again another seller you're not happy to deal with, regardless what they tell you.


Or, did I misunderstand what happened?

You make an interesting point.
However, it seems to me that if the jeweler did not want to have to pay shipping and other associated fees to acquire a diamond that a customer decides not to purchase then the jeweler is responsible for either providing the customer with enough information to determine if the diamond in question will be what he/she is looking for before the order is made, or the jeweler is responsible for offering up enough examples to get a good idea of what qualities and appearance will really appeal to the consumer and then suggesting diamonds that fit those standards.
It seems to me that the Jeweler made two critical errors that went hand in hand.
First, she assumed the the customer was ignorant and misinformed--thus unable to make a decision himself.
Second, it seems that she probably didn't look at the dimensions and determine the impact of those dimensions on the diamond's performance herself. This is surely extremely crucial with any customer, and in particular with one who doesn't have any scientific understanding of light performance and diamonds--as she seems to have assumed. She appears to have simply put her faith in the Excellent cut grade and ordered a random Excellent cut for a Random customer based on color and clarity requirements. To me, that seems that she did not do what she really need to do in order to make sure that the diamond would appeal to this particular consumer when it arrived, and thus is entirely responsible for any dissatisfaction that is had when the diamond is actually observed.

 

[Regular Guy]

Working,

I was possibly being a little hard on prelude...but not really. I think in life...we''d all like to do a good job, and we should aspire to do our best. All of us. As to what one is responsible for...that question sort of looks for the lowest common denominator. Who wants to look for that.

Date: 6/30/2007 8:25:05 PM
Author: WorkingHardforSmallRewards
She appears to have simply put her faith in the Excellent cut grade and ordered a random Excellent cut for a Random customer based on color and clarity requirements. To me, that seems that she did not do what she really need to do in order to make sure that the diamond would appeal to this particular consumer when it arrived, and thus is entirely responsible for any dissatisfaction that is had when the diamond is actually observed.

Yes, I think she did this...understand excellents are close enough. As you say...she might have investigated further...but not too wacky to not have done that.

Many years ago, I heard that the word: responsiblity...means really it''s component parts...that when we have the ability to respond...that is our responsibility. Going forward, with possibly new information, Prelude might act differently with new information...aware that, although the jewler offered no complaint, money was spent...and also, though not sure if Prelude DID have HCA in the back of their mind as constraints as a subset of either or excellent, or a criteria of any kind....well....I suppose your point and mind might be that sharing what our criteria sets are, earlier than later, would be good for all. Sorry to have rambled...dinner is calling.

Regards,

 

[prelude4]

To answer some of ur queries..well, i tink different jewellers handle their business differently.
In my previous post i did discuss the said diamond before. Helpful forumers advice me to request
for a copy of the GIA report for the stone im interested for the full details. I went down the store and the saleswoman obliged.

After i decided on the stone i want to buy, i went back to the store to view the physical diamond. Im surprised that
the saleswoman do not have it in the store unlike big jewellers. Im already prepared to purchase the diamond upon viewing it.
Apparently, to keep costs low they dun keep the diamonds in the stores. They sell diamonds by providing a list and of selected diamonds which customers choose from base on the specs(if we even know how to analyse it in the 1st place).

How am i suppose to purchase a diamond before even viewing the physical item? Since im keen on the diamond,im ok that they issue me a purchase order(no obligations), after that they will buy the insurance for the
diamond to be taken out(from dunno wher) to the store for me to view.

Once the diamond is sent over,the lady called me and i went down to view it. But im surprised that when i request for anything more than the normal H&A scope, she doesn''t have any. Although she maintains a professional front, but what irks me is how
she brushes aways anything above her that she have as GIMMICKS. I mean, some people are smart enough to come up with
formulas,technology(HCA, FIREscope and stuffs..etc.) to further acertain diamonds but she juz deem those as GIMMICKS..?

But yeah..i laid down a deposit for it...

cheers.

 

[WorkingHardforSmallRewards]

Well, that is common practice and it is how most operate I believe. Diamonds are expensive--they can't very well buy and stock every diamond they have access to--but that doesn't mean they aren't nice and worth purchasing, \and, again, it is available just not in-house.

and It seems pretty obvious, based on what you have said at least, that she is not really interested in learning about diamond's or perhaps the diamond industry, but more so in pushing merchandise and sticking to what she is specifically trained in to reach that goal--I imagine her to basically satisfying the minimum requirements of her job, though I might be being to harsh I will say that since we don't have a name or location or anything (which I would recommend you NOT putting up here for the sake it seems it would be undue insult to her business). But that doesn't make her a bad person, and she was willing to oblige you fairly well, plus you get to view the diamond before paying the full amount. Not too bad overall.

What is the price by the way? I am curious as that is about the specs I had been shopping for.

 

[Regular Guy]

Sorry, Prelude, thanks for the background, and congratulations.

I do think only a minority of jewelers are up to current on much of what''s reviewed here...let alone having the helpful technology in place to explore these ideas further.

Go figure.

and best wishes,

 

[prelude4]

No problem people..We''re all here to share knowledge n experiences

And i dun put up any names unless its to warn others of cheats or other justifiable reasons..i would have done so in my initial post
if i wanted to. Overall she''s still ok..i dun like to badmouth people..that''s y i put up my post in an anecdotal way..for u guys to comment on her attitude..hehe.

anyway, if i remembered correctly. The diamond is cut in Belgium.
The specs you have it. I got it for $3840 SGD (inclusive setting) which i think is quite reasonable.
But i paid extra $200 SGD to have 10 loose stones totalling .1cts, 5 on each sides.

Initially when i check out Lazare Diamond, they charge $600 to set the small stones. To put it objectively, you can find good and reasonably priced diamonds at the store if u know how to select. The shop is in Singapore. Since there r already so many recommended online vendors here in PS, mayb any1 who r interested can PM me n i''ll let u know their online store.

cheers..

 

[WorkingHardforSmallRewards]

Yea, its not a terrible deal. The PS vendors offer similar stones for a bit lower, but then you would not have been able to see it first! so well enough I say!