Airport Security: Risk we take - what will work

[perry]

I watch with horror as another round of ''Oh my, Oh my, we have to improve airport security - we should do this, we should do that; and if we do - problem will be solved."

I shudder because it seems that most people want just to do some "quick fix" that looks or sounds good so they can feel secure.

The reality - is that I have heard no real proposals that would work against dedicated intellegent people.

So here is my way of guranteeing airplane security:

1) All major lugage will be shipped independently on cargo planes.

2) You may check a carryon sized bag - that will be checked into lugage (in small bomb proof containers).

3) You will remove all of your clothing - to be packed into a provided luggag bag -that will be checked into luggage in small bomb proof containers; The airport will provide a light smock or coverall that you will turn in at your destination when you are allowed to recover and change back into your cloths.

4) You can only carry a picture ID, One Credit or debit card, and minor amounts of cash, with you when you board a plane. There will be a zippered pocket in the smock or coverall for that.

5) You will undergo a body cavity search.

6) Special arrangments will be made for medical items needed during or shortly after your expected flight time. You will have to check in early for this.

The Airline will supply all needed food, refreshments, and other minor items when on the plane and in the concourse.


Short of that - I don''t think you will ever stop explosives from being smuggled onboard.
Too many things can be called an explosive; too many explosives can be made into many shapes (how do you know that the credit or an ID card is not an explosive... It could be..; but you have limited the size of the explosive in those cases).

Nor do I believe that "profiling" people is going to catch everyone as well.

Short of all of that - People are going to have to accept that there is some risk. But, even if a plane were being blow up every week - I doubt people would be willing to fly with my list of "what would work" practices above.

Perry

 

[strmrdr]

wont work,,,,
only takes 2 people to blow up an plane...

one to hold a knife to the throat of a refuelers family at home and another to show the poor guy the picture and give him a quarter sized shaped charge with altitude trigger to put on the tank.

That is how a pro would do it if he just didn't get hired on and do the job himself.

besides who would fly under those conditions you propose? not many,,,,,,not many at all......
The current BS is already causing millions of dollars in loses.

 

[smitcompton]

Dear Perry,
My compliments to you. You have a wonderful quality that is quite rare. I did get a good hearty laugh from your proposal, but you are one of the few that seeks solutions to problems. I don''t know you at all (except I think you may live near me in suburb of Chicago) but this morning i remembered you tried to solve our illegal immigration problem and I wanted to go back to read it. I think people believe discussing things is enough. It may start there but I would like to see if we couldn''t come up with some ideas for solutions to problems that we face. I think MZ and the St guy are interested in such, but I don''t want to read articles from newspapers. I want to try to come up with answers. While the war is number one on my list, I think voting will be at least a partial anwer to that. My other concerns are a. illegal immigration and b. public schools. The idea is not to shoot everyones ideas down. Many time we have partial truths. I will begin with immigration. I think a national identy card wwould allow us to ID those who are in our country illegally. The argument is we cannot deport 3 mill people. And that is because we cant identify who they are. We have drivers licenses for ID. Let''s go national. I am not against legal immigration.
Schools. I have been in business most of my life. Got sick and needed to have income and began to substitute teach. What an eye opener. Why are we caring for disabled children who need to be fed and diaper changed at 10 11 yrs old. I am not heartless. When did schools become nursing homes? Why, when children learn so quickly are there spanish schools? And showing my most heartless side. why do schools feed kids breakfast and lunch for free, or at all. I don''t want teachers to answer. Just a few people who could work on answers. If I am a foolish woman, I''m sure you will let me know.
Thanks Perry,
Annette
If you have a particular problem let us know, we can multi-task

 

[perry]

Storm:

Groundcrew and supply security can also be handled fairly well as well - without inconviencing the passangers.

Any idea how much stuff needs to move into and out of a major power plant. Many people would be surprised.

Every friggin bit of it is inspected. Every employee granted unescorted access goes through a background check and psycological testing that is higher than what the TSA is using; not to mention random and for cause drug and alcohol testing (done on site). Then you have to get through the gatehouse every day.

Internal security forces... I'd match them agains any light infintry in the world.

How to do all of that is well known and well practiced at about 80 commercial sites in the US. It strikes me that the number of major airports in the US are less than that.

It would actually be easier to secure the flight side of the equation than the passengers. Employees and suppliers will put up with the screening (at least those that pass the screening) to ensure airport security. Just part of the job requirements.

As far as what a "pro" would do. Hmmm.... Airplanes are not as vunrable as many assume - and the press makes it out that any explosion - no matter how small - would be a disaster.

In fact, quite the contrary - there have been a series of events that did not destroy the plane - and the plane landed safely. In a few cases a few people were killed. Lockerbee Scotland is one of the few cases where a bomb did take a plane down. Now they pack the luggage into "bomb reinforced" boxes and that size of a bomb would not likely penetrate the luggage box.

Blowing a hole in the wing with a small charge probably only creates a fuel leak; and probably does not even start a fire. The plane has multiple redundant control systems.

I'm not saying that there arn't a few specific spots in every plane where a small charge could not bring the plane down. But in general its like shooting a person. It's easy to blow a hole in someone - but that dosn't stop them - or kill them - unless you hit them in a vital spot.

Very small bombs in most of the plane are not the issue (except the passanger compartment) - larger ones are. I think we could stop the larger ones if we wished.

But I do agree - most people won't put up with it.

Perry

 

[perry]

Annette:

Thank you; you raise a series of issues:

Here is my general take on a couple of them: The problem with schools is that there is this concept that everyone deserves a quality education.... and the only way to do that is to dumb down the classes to the lowest common demoninator. The result is that no one learns much - and the bright students are discouraged.

My take is that classes should be challanging and the best should be quickly routed into tougher classes. The slower learners in the subject will by nature be left behind.

This is one of the reasons that many foreign student are better educated than many US students. Those countries leave the slow behind - and route them into classes they can handle.

Concerning "Free Lunch" programs: I am a product of such a program as I grew up in poverty. On the other hand - once we got past some issues of my being in school at all (long time ago the rules were different) - I could hold my own and even move into some of the advanced classes in certain subjects (science and math).

Thus, I have no problem with a free lunch program - for real students. It is one way to give people a chance in a setting where it can do a lot of good.

What bothers me, though, is my understanding is that they are now serving about 10 to 20 times the student population with the free lunch program than what existed in my days.... Yet, many of those kids have designer jeans, shoes, ets. I was one of the worst dressed kids in highschool as I had limited clothing (I had to buy - with my hard earned money - everything I wore starting at about age 12). I mowed lawns, shoveled snow, trimmed bushes, raked leaves, and cleaned home coal furnaces for my money (and one summer painted 3 houses with a freind). I could not even find a kid willing to mow lawn a couple of years ago (I finally got my neighbor to do it for me).

Anyway - we could talk about many things. Ask me about multi-taksing some time

Perry

 

[strmrdr]

I believe it was flight 800 that was taken down by a small electrical short in the wrong place.
A shaped charge can send a molten plasma blast hot enough to cut tank armor.
Its more than hot enough to set off a gas tank... if you really wanted to get wicked have it altitude and a timer......
1 hour at over 10000 feet boom....

nuke plants are a controlled environment airports by their nature are open environments with ton and tons of cargo in and out each day and thousands of employees and thousands of people in and out.

 

[perry]

Storm:

The shaped charges that can cut metal.... For tank armor they are not small and not easily hidden. For lighter metal I do admit they can be smaller (and you are entering an area where I have some expertise).

The problem is that unless you had it in just the right place - cutting a hole in an airplane only cuts a hole in it. It doesn''t casue it to blow up in the sky, or loose a wing.

I admit it would be easy to cut through the skin of a wing - but the skin is often supported by a titanium honeycomb structure for strength. I don''t see the explosive charge that cut through the Al skin cutting through the honecomb. It is a very short effect process. You can buy a prefabbed charge that will cut a 1/8" plate of steel clean through. It wont cut a 1/4 in plate, and it wont cut anything behind the 1/8" plate. A charge that can cut through a 1" plate is much much larger.

You can also easily fabricate a charge that will blow a small hole into somthing. Again - unless it hits a truely vital item - all you have done is blown a hole. Lots of airplanes have completed flights and landed safely with holes in various places.

Explosives also rarely start fires - in fact they are commonly used to put fires out. Detonation and combustion are two separate processes.

Flight 800: One of the most convincing explainations is indeed an electrical short - of a cable inside of an empty fuel thank that was not inerted as it should have been (they are supposed to fill tanks with Nitrogen or CO2 as they empty - but my understanding is that there was some other problem and the flight engineer never innerted the tank). I also understand that the cable in question was either rerouted out of those tanks - or replaced with ones with anti-wear shielding (and I belive that all cables in fuel tanks had to meet those new specs).

As far as nuke plants being a controlled envoronement and airports an open one. Nuke plants are very employee intense. Our plant has about 700 employees (full time). During an outage we bring in gobs more and regularily have 1200-1500 onsite in round the clock operations (and some plants have 3000+ during outages). Eery piece of material - every vehicle - every food or drink item - etc is inspected by security before comming through the fence; and we employ technology that is as good or better than anything you will see in airports for screening for items.

The scale is very similar to an airport. It would be very easy to transfer the knowhow and orgainzation to an airport (on the goundcrew and maintenance side). Nuke plants also have administratie offices, and often engineering and warhouse spance outside of the controlled area. Airports would have the same.

I don''t think it would be that hard to make the grounds area of an airport into a closed area. It would cost some money - and I''ll bet a lot of people would not pass security processes. But the knowhow and the systems exist that could be implemented in a short order (a few years at most for all US airports).

Perry

 

[strmrdr]

Perry,
While this is info available on the net if someone wants to find it...
Im not comfortable discussing it further on an open board.....
So im just going to drop it other than saying putting it right over the gas tank its going to blow it.
Its not about cutting holes....
Iv worked with aircraft fuel and jet turbine fuel controlls, they are far more delicate than a lot of people would want to know about.
Im not going to go into anymore details beyond that,,,,,,,,,

Anyway as always its nice talking to you.... you make me think and there arent many that do :}

 

[smitcompton]

Dear Perry,
For years I have been a champion of the public school system because I believed it was the great equalizer of all Americans. Recently, I have concluded that what is wrong in the system cannot be changed without drastic and dramatic action, if it can be changed at all. I am moving toward support for small charter schools where the bureaucracy isn''t ingrained.
Before I give up entirely, I need to find out if people such as yourself are willing to give up the demands their own interest group(poverty) makes on the school system, which uses money and human resources to compy with these demands.
As an example, the free lunch program that I came in touch with comprised 2 full classes of Mexican immigrants in Spanish speaking only classes. I don''t live in an upscale area(middleclass-working) so there were only a few other children eligible for it .Teachers, kitchen workers, lunch moms, school moms all criticzied the progam. Now Perry, if people live at the poverty level
they are eligible for food stamps. In my area, they have wonderful food pantries from our township office and churches in the area. hold weekly hours where people can use their group resources once a month, the only question and proof you need is residence in the area. The city has the same thing in most of their areas and people do know this is available. So, I am not saying go hungry. I want to get lkichens and workers off the payroll. I saw what they serve in highschools. Pizza, macaron and cheese, hamburgers. LET THEM EAT SANDWICHES BROUGHT FROM HOME. MOTHERS CAN COOK AN EGG THE NIGHT BEFORE, give them juice and send them on their way with sandwich and fruit. In my community and resident can get free bread. Dominicks and jewel give so much to the food pantries. They get Pizza from Pizza hut, chicken from KFC. There is no one in my township that has to go hungry. See if you can give thAT UP pERRY. tHANKS aNNETTE

 

[perry]

Annette:

In this I will agree: The current goverment subsidy programs are a mess; and yes, I think in radical need of revision.

Much has changed since I was on a "Free" Lunch Program. I know I am dating myself - but I remember the creation of "Food stamps" - and what existed prior to that (surpluss food program handouts). While I may have the dates muddled. The current form of food stamps did not exist when I was in highschool (although their predicessor may have).

You also make assumptions about a degree of normalcy of a family. That assumption is not always true.

I will always hold to the beilief that those who are broke and willing to work to get ahead are deserving of our help; and that society should set up programs to help them (note that I did not say government should set up such programs).

Notice also that I did not say "in poverty" as I believe that "poverty" is a state of mind - one where you believe that the governemnt has to take care of you - because you deserve it...

Being broke is temporary until you get on your feet. I, and many others, are success stories of what can be done with temporary help a to a family and children who are broke. But a key feature of being broke is a true willingness to do what you can to survive and get ahead (at all levels in the family; every one of us kids worked - and not for just spending money).

I am not aware of any success stories about people who are "in poverty" - they just stay in poverty (although sometimes at a higher level). They also tend to breed more poverty as their mental attitude can be infectious (escpecially to their kids).

If you want to eliminate programs for people in poverty. No arguments here. Just remember that we should always help those who are broke. There is a huge distinction.

Try to keep the distinction in mind when you are thinking of fixes. An awful lot of self made millionairs were people who were broke once. A bunch of them don''t even have a High School education. They just figured out that they were responsible for their future - and then figured out how to really make enough money to take care of their future. Key distinction. I hope you understand it.

Perry

 

[movie zombie]

this thread started out re airport security.......perhaps a new thread re public schools would be get more readers and responses.

movie zombie

eta: Food Stamps was a USDA program designed to move agricultural products off the shelf so that more could go on the shelf. all the forms were USDA. that it was used to help the poor and/or welfare recipients was just a device to move the product. nothing wrong with that but don't go thinking this was merely thought up for welfare and executed by welfare. it was a great way of eliminating surplus and creating a demand to replace that surplus. and it was very heavy dairy. no, i was not a recipient, i was an eligibility worker for the county welfare department that merely administered the program for the USDA.

 

[perry]

Movie Zombie....

Yes there was a dairy component (processed chese and dried milk). But a lot was also dried beans, dried eggs, canned pork, etc.

I don''t think it was possible to eat all of those dried beans.... and more beans... and more beans... They lingered for years afterwards (and we ate beans a lot). The rest of the food went fairly well. I do not remember any surplus of cheese and it was the thing that has to be rationed or we would run out. Dried milk was an item that we always seemed to have - but not in the surplus quantities as those dried beans...

Also, you folks do not now how good fresh eggs taste until you have lived on dried eggs...


Perry

 

[movie zombie]

you weren''t in california, were you, perry?! people got huge quanitites of cheese.......eatting that much cheese isn''t good for anyone. 4 pound hunks.....even sliced and diced, that''s a lot of cheese. the dairy ''industry'' was ever so thankful.

movie zombie

 

[smitcompton]

Dear Movie Zombie,
I am trying to focus on eliminating school programs that use valuabe resources that add nothing to the education of our children. If 5 or 6 ramdom individuals(us) could agree on the elimination of some of these programs I truly believe that these ideas could be sold to influencial people. If we open this up to all, the focus seems to change easily. So, it seems that Perry would agree that with other safety nets created in the community and the gov. we could get rid of this program and funds for free lunches. I didn''t know you were a social worker, so while I have you interested,I hope, I want to eliminate grief councilors, that come running everytime some school administrator wants to look like he cares. Parents should be able to comfort their children when bad things happen. My friends and I used to talk about these thigs among ourselves. We did good.Comments, please. Can we get rid of this program?

Perry,
I write in short sentences. I in no way believe that being broke is a moral deficiency. I am so grateful for my community which cares for the hungry, that for many years I volunteered and have accepted a hand-up myself when I was sick. I had some good financial fortune and the first check I wrote was to the government food pantry to help replentish. The township was shocked. I believe in gov. and that we should give back. BUT NOT IN THE SCHOOLS!
tHANKS TO BOTH OF YOU,
aNNETTE