AGS0 confusion

[dpilot83]

I am seeing the term AGS0 diamond being thrown around on this forum a lot and I am extremely confused as to what it means exactly. I''ve been searching for the answer and am finally giving in and posting a question.

From the AGS Lab site:

"The AGS 0-10 Grading System
The AGS 0-10 grading scale is easy to understand. The highest possible grade is 0; 10 is the lowest. For example, a diamond with a color grade of 3 has less color than a diamond with a color grade of 5. When writing the grades of a diamond, cut is first, then color, then clarity, and then carat weight. For example, a diamond that is the finest cut, colorless, free of inclusions and blemishes, and one carat in weight would be written as: 0/0/0 — 1.000 carat. In the AGS Diamond Grading Standards, this would be known as a Triple Zero™. "

This type of grade is not what I see posted on the forum, nor is it what I see on sites like White Flash. On the forums I will just see AGS0. Does this imply the 0/0/0 rating? On White Flash when I look at the ACA (either H&A or Princess) I see just AGS with no number behind it at all.

Speaking of these "A Cut Above" diamonds, what makes them a cut above? How can diamonds with different color and clarity ratings be in the same price range and both be ACA diamonds?

Let us say that the only requirement for a diamond is that it must be princess cut and it must be 3/4 of a carat (or in a relatively close ballpark). For arguments sake, let''s say that price is not a limiting factor. I cannot find princess cut ACA diamonds on the White Flash site that are a D in color and a VVS1 in clarity (at least not in the 3/4 carat range). I can however find them elsewhere. Tiffany and Co as well as well as my local jewelry shop can come up with these diamonds. From the local place they would be GIA certified and from Tiffany, well you know how that goes.

A. Is there any reason that these diamonds with higher color and clarity ratings would be less appealing if price were no object than the available options from White Flash?

B. Is there anything wrong with me wanting to spend more on quality since I am limited in my size selection? Would I perhaps get something that doesn''t look as good even though it has higher color and clarity ratings from the other places?

I''m still pretty confused. Thanks for your help.

 

[WinkHPD]

When you see AGS 0 used this way it almost always is referring to an AGS 0 cut grade, meaning the stone has an AGS Ideal cut grade rating.

Wink

 

[bagelboy]

Dpilot, AGS O refers to just the cut grade, not color or clarity. On the AGS certificates they use both the number and color letter and clarity abbreviation letters. Most people here would just AGS zero, F color, VVS-1 for instance. I did not see any D color, VVS clarity diamonds around .75 to 1.00 at Whiteflash. I would give them a call and ask what they have or may have latter in the coming weeks. You cannot see inclusions in VS-1 clarity grade I was believe. At least not from the top as were graded at the lab. In my book, buying higher clarity diamonds than VS-1 is just a waste of money. I do understand that princess cuts show color and inclusions easier than a brilliant rounds. And everyone has their own tastes, so you certainly should pick what you like or what makes your girl happy. Brian Gavin started his own brand of diamonds he calls ACA. He decides which diamonds make that elite brand level. He is pretty darn picky about which diamonds pass his standards to make his A Cut Above line. Oh by the way, it is cut alone that makes a diamond better, not color or clarity. A poorly cut diamond just won''t sparkle as much as a well cut diamond, regardless of color or clarity. Most D color diamonds are poorly cut but sell very well in the Asian markets. Thats why you don''t see very many here. I hope that this helps. Also I believe that Good Old Gold sells AGS princess cuts too.

 

[Regular Guy]

Ditto what my friends have said. Also...

Date: 7/24/2008 8:45:41 PM
Author:dpilot83

A. Is there any reason that these diamonds with higher color and clarity ratings would be less appealing if price were no object than the available options from White Flash?

B. Is there anything wrong with me wanting to spend more on quality since I am limited in my size selection? Would I perhaps get something that doesn''t look as good even though it has higher color and clarity ratings from the other places?

Most people don''t have your problem. Take me for example. Mostly, we have a budget, and are challenged to get what we want with it. But...you''ve got a good sort of problem.

If you''re inclined...read about what people have to say about the highest colors and clarities. Generally, since it''s believed most people can''t differentiate a D from an E, let alone a G possibly...the higher color are in lower demand. This is even more so for flawless vs VS2, more or less. People on Pricescope, being both knowledgeable and value conscious, tend to want to spend for what they can see...and often, when given a choice between putting money into either a higher color or clarity vs size...go for a larger diamond...which you know can crank up the price.

I searched Blue Nile for you because they typically have a big selection, and came up dry (for AGS0 options...if not yet convinced...you can read here where they''ve uniquely graded Princesses for ideal). Then, I remembered another avenue. I can recommend this avenue...where you can get a) your AGS0, b) a quality vendor, and c) an experienced cutter, who may be able to optimize even on the AGS...which you''d like to want. Plus...he will let you spend more of your money, and goose up at least your color, and maintain a highish clarity.

Two of Paul''s Infinity Diamonds are with Todd at Nice Ice. You might consider them both...here and here. You need not have any remorse for investing a bit more in these. It may be a win win...as it seems you''ve moved on from your earlier concern about investing in the local economy.

Regards,

 

[dpilot83]

Date: 7/24/2008 11:22:49 PM
Author: Regular Guy

Most people don''t have your problem. Take me for example. Mostly, we have a budget, and are challenged to get what we want with it. But...you''ve got a good sort of problem.

I did not mean to imply that I am without a budget. The lower price range that I listed in my other thread will be painful for me financially. The upper price range dramatically moreso. My question in regards to money not being an obstacle was meant to help me understand the relationship between the various methods for rating a diamond. It just seemed that the advice I was recieving was focused on keeping the price down (a good thing) but it was making it hard for me to underestand if some diamonds with higher clarity and color ratings may in actuality be worse than diamonds with lower lower clarity and color but higher cut ratings. I am in your debt for your analysis thus far. I will have more questions this afternoon in regards to the rest of your post I''m sure but for now I must go to work. Thanks again.

 

[dockman3]

Date: 7/25/2008 8:17:39 AM
Author: dpilot83

Date: 7/24/2008 11:22:49 PM

Author: Regular Guy


Most people don't have your problem. Take me for example. Mostly, we have a budget, and are challenged to get what we want with it. But...you've got a good sort of problem.

I did not mean to imply that I am without a budget. The lower price range that I listed in my other thread will be painful for me financially. The upper price range dramatically moreso. My question in regards to money not being an obstacle was meant to help me understand the relationship between the various methods for rating a diamond. It just seemed that the advice I was recieving was focused on keeping the price down (a good thing) but it was making it hard for me to underestand if some diamonds with higher clarity and color ratings may in actuality be worse than diamonds with lower lower clarity and color but higher cut ratings. I am in your debt for your analysis thus far. I will have more questions this afternoon in regards to the rest of your post I'm sure but for now I must go to work. Thanks again.

Hi there. A higher color and clarity will no impact the performance of the diamond at all. In fact, it will probably help the overall look of the diamond, but will not effect performance. The performance is all about the cut. The color and clarity don't matter at all in terms of brilliance, fire and scintillation. Having said that, I see no reason why you can't get a higher color and clarity if you want to. Yes, it is more expensive, but if you are limited to size and have enough room in your budget that you don't mind spending, I think a D VVS1 is amazing! Will you be able to see it with your naked eye, probably not, but in your mind you'll know that you got one of the best things money can buy. That is one of the purest diamonds there is, and while you'll pay for it, it might be worth it to you. I haven't read your other post, so I don't know what your budget is, but if you are limited in size, then I say once you've gotten the best cut you can, go for the highest quality in terms of color and clarity. Good luck, and keep us posted with your search!

ETA: Ok, I just read your other topic. I think that's great that you want to buy locally. I bought locally too and had a wonderful experience. However, if you want to stay around 3-4k, then with a 0.75ct princess, you won't be able to go that high in color or clarity, but you don't need to. You can get a G VS2 and probably not tell a difference with a D VVS1. As I've already said, there's absolutely nothing wrong with wanting the best color and clarity you can get, but not if it means doubling your budget, in my opinion. I realize this is a tough choice for you, so I'm just trying to give you my honest opinion. In the end, get what you are comfortable with and what looks best to you, since you'll have these stones in front of you.

 

[Regular Guy]

D -

If you''ve not so interested in the extra effort that would be necessary short term for a local purchase, either the options I pointed to above, asking you to stretch a bit more, or the 3 Honey22 pointed to in your other thread...will be swell.

Consider making your decision based on some kind of experience with the differences relevant, based on color and clarity. Consider spending $50 - $95 for an ASET or ASET starter kit, going to your local guy, and see better what he has...at least for fun. GIA is well regarded for its grading for color & clarity, since that''s the basic differences available to you between Nice Ice & WF. Given the combination of your possible budget, and natural thought to go with WF...I''d reluctant to recommend either, except to encourage you to consider both. Again, options at both would be swell.

Regards,

 

[dpilot83]

Date: 7/25/2008 10:08:29 AM
Author: dockman3

Hi there. A higher color and clarity will no impact the performance of the diamond at all. In fact, it will probably help the overall look of the diamond, but will not effect performance. The performance is all about the cut. The color and clarity don''t matter at all in terms of brilliance, fire and scintillation. Having said that, I see no reason why you can''t get a higher color and clarity if you want to. Yes, it is more expensive, but if you are limited to size and have enough room in your budget that you don''t mind spending, I think a D VVS1 is amazing! Will you be able to see it with your naked eye, probably not, but in your mind you''ll know that you got one of the best things money can buy. That is one of the purest diamonds there is, and while you''ll pay for it, it might be worth it to you. I haven''t read your other post, so I don''t know what your budget is, but if you are limited in size, then I say once you''ve gotten the best cut you can, go for the highest quality in terms of color and clarity. Good luck, and keep us posted with your search!

ETA: Ok, I just read your other topic. I think that''s great that you want to buy locally. I bought locally too and had a wonderful experience. However, if you want to stay around 3-4k, then with a 0.75ct princess, you won''t be able to go that high in color or clarity, but you don''t need to. You can get a G VS2 and probably not tell a difference with a D VVS1. As I''ve already said, there''s absolutely nothing wrong with wanting the best color and clarity you can get, but not if it means doubling your budget, in my opinion. I realize this is a tough choice for you, so I''m just trying to give you my honest opinion. In the end, get what you are comfortable with and what looks best to you, since you''ll have these stones in front of you.

Thanks very much for the explanation of cut vs color and clarity. I have never had the opportunity to view loose diamonds or even many rings as of yet. I guess I felt like I should educate myself before I went looking very much so I wouldn''t make any dumb decisions but I probably would have had a better grasp of what you just explained had I done more looking before starting my research.

The thing I''m really concerned about in terms of going local is not as much the price differential but my inability to evaluate whether the diamond is a well cut diamond now that I know why that''s important. How hard will it be for someone who has barely even looked at a diamond set in a ring much less examined loose diamonds through a microscope or other tools to determine whether a cut is good or not.

I think it might be easier if the local place had many loose diamonds of varying qualities that they could show me how to tell what is good and what is not, but they are small enough that everything they have is already mounted and so if you want to see how a diamond looks you tell them what specs you want and they go order it and then you can examine it. They can also order a setting and send it to you to examine seperately but they will not show you the two together because before they have them put together they need your money. The reason for this is that their supplier does the mounting as well. They can do some work with gold but they cannot do anything with platinum. I''m just not sure how much value I''ll be getting out of this experience by doing it locally other than supporting the local economy. Does it sound like your local store was as small as mine? Would you still want to do it locally given what I''ve told you about them now? Thanks.

 

[dockman3]

Hmmmm, that''s a tough one. I don''t think mine was quite as small as yours. They have a staff of goldsmiths and others who can work with platinum and they do the setting themselves as well. They only had a few loose diamonds in stock, but were able to get anything I wanted, just not in huge quantities. I think they worked the say way though with loose diamonds. They did not put mine in the setting until I had paid for it, which makes sense.

As for going to look at diamonds, even if the diamonds are set, you should be able to tell a good cut from a bad one and you can still see the difference in colors and clarities. For a well cut diamond, the setting doesn''t matter because the light that gets reflected back to your eye comes from the top of the diamond anyway. However, there is still value in looking at them loose.

What they can do for you in terms of looking at cut, is get a few diamonds of different cuts, not tell you which is which, and let you see if you can pick out the well cut stone. This will be a great way to learn what to look for. Just remember to try to look at them in standard office lighting, not the fancy lights in the display counters. It shouldn''t take too long to get a feeling for what you are looking for in a stone. Once you see a well cut stone next to a poorly cut stone, you''ll realize exactly how much cut effects things and you''ll never look back!

There are many threads here about the value of local as opposed to online, but to boil it all down for you, at a local store, you are supporting the local economy and you get the benefit of looking at the stone first hand when buying it. You also generally get free cleaning and maintenance of your ring, and a relationship with a local jeweler. You also have the benefit of talking to somebody in person as opposed to online or over the phone. Personally, the biggest draw for me was being able to compare stones side by side in person.

If you do buy online, you probably will get a better price, and the service at the PS vendors is great, but you can''t look at them in person. If something happens, you have to ship it off again. The neat part about diamonds is that you can tell something from the numbers, but not everything. You can get a great stone online, but personally, I wanted to see what I was buying with my own eyes. I would never have picked the one I got online because the numbers aren''t "perfect".

Ok, this has been a really long reply, but I wanted to make sure I covered everything. To answer your last question, yes, I would still buy it locally, if it were me, because I value seeing the diamond with my own eyes so much. That is extremely important to me, on top of supporting the local economy and building a relationship with a jeweler that I can trust and go to anytime I need anything done with any piece of jewelery. If you have any more questions, please don''t hesitate to ask. Good luck with your purchase and let us know how it turns out!

 

[dpilot83]

Date: 7/25/2008 10:34:22 AM
Author: Regular Guy
D -

If you''ve not so interested in the extra effort that would be necessary short term for a local purchase, either the options I pointed to above, asking you to stretch a bit more, or the 3 Honey22 pointed to in your other thread...will be swell.

Consider making your decision based on some kind of experience with the differences relevant, based on color and clarity. Consider spending $50 - $95 for an ASET or ASET starter kit, going to your local guy, and see better what he has...at least for fun. GIA is well regarded for its grading for color & clarity, since that''s the basic differences available to you between Nice Ice & WF. Given the combination of your possible budget, and natural thought to go with WF...I''d reluctant to recommend either, except to encourage you to consider both. Again, options at both would be swell.

Regards,

I am intrigued by the idea of going for the ASET starter kit. I think right now what little I know is based off what I have read. Perhaps some real world experience would be valueble to this process.

You mentioned that GIA is well regarded for its grading of color and clarity. They do not however grade cut for a princess cut diamond, correct? Therefore, with my limited experience (almost none) looking at diamonds, even with the ASET starter kit, I won''t know for sure if I''ve gotten something decent unless I get something that has AGS certification or if I go with the links you provided it seems. I was thinking of maybe still trying to go locally, but if I do that and all they have is GIA stuff, will I really be able to judge the cut accurately?

You and others on here have convinced me that the cut is more important than the color or clarity and because of that I''m willing to go down a little on the other two to ensure I have something that has a good cut.

 

[Regular Guy]

When I said before to triangulate...it was with a) you, b) your local shop, and c) your away shop. Now, you''re considering maybe 2 away shops...but you need to determine how much you value the higher color & clarity to help determine which away shop to go with, if you go away at all. If you have an attitude of genuine exploration, and that anyone could get your business, you''re OK in my book; don''t abuse people''s time, though...presuming you have it yourself.

In my second post in your other thread, I mention what looks like an AGS0 option that''s virtual, your local guy could call in. Then again, WF could call it in, too, and/or either could advise about it (because we only so far know the cert is from AGS...we don''t know if it meets their 0. Regarding your local guy who you might use...if you do ask him to bring in an option not in hand from away...consider offering to pick up his mailing costs...so you don''t owe each other...he for getting it in...and you for giving him the business. Read other threads for what this cost might be...but something like $35 could be right (but check me on this!).

I think if you''re more or less up front with the vendors you engage about your intentions, you can go forward with a clear conscience. Also, the bounce you get from your prospective vendor, as you discuss your shopping strategies...may further inform you about who you would like your vendor to be.

 

[dpilot83]

Date: 7/25/2008 1:47:48 PM
Author: Regular Guy
When I said before to triangulate...it was with a) you, b) your local shop, and c) your away shop. Now, you''re considering maybe 2 away shops...but you need to determine how much you value the higher color & clarity to help determine which away shop to go with, if you go away at all. If you have an attitude of genuine exploration, and that anyone could get your business, you''re OK in my book; don''t abuse people''s time, though...presuming you have it yourself.

In my second post in your other thread, I mention what looks like an AGS0 option that''s virtual, your local guy could call in. Then again, WF could call it in, too, and/or either could advise about it (because we only so far know the cert is from AGS...we don''t know if it meets their 0. Regarding your local guy who you might use...if you do ask him to bring in an option not in hand from away...consider offering to pick up his mailing costs...so you don''t owe each other...he for getting it in...and you for giving him the business. Read other threads for what this cost might be...but something like $35 could be right (but check me on this!).

I think if you''re more or less up front with the vendors you engage about your intentions, you can go forward with a clear conscience. Also, the bounce you get from your prospective vendor, as you discuss your shopping strategies...may further inform you about who you would like your vendor to be.

I''ve taken some time to think about the things you''ve said and I think you''re right, spending some time with the local guys would probably end up being a waste of their time. The long and the short of it is that I don''t feel comfortable making a call on cut without some expert advice and there aren''t people in this area that can go with me and look at it. In order to avoid the "2 away shops" situation I''m thinking that I''ll probably just go with Whiteflash on this one assuming a phone call to them cements the confidence I''ve developed in them from reading this board. Thanks for the advice.

 

[Regular Guy]

My experience, while limited, with WF has been very positive, I read here as you do that they''re quite good, and I''m sure you''d be in good hands with them.

I''ll also agree that it''s too bad (and I''m in a pretty big metro area/DC) that it''s not easy to replicate the service and options locally that are available on-line...but that seems to be how it usually is.

Best of wishes,