shape
carat
color
clarity

AGS paradox

Status
Not open for further replies. Please create a new topic or request for this thread to be opened.

echelon6

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jul 5, 2007
Messages
270
Hi all

A thought occurred to me:

Since merchants only send their stones to AGS if they believe their stone is likely to receive an AGS 0 or 1, then therefore AGS would only be grading stones and giving them 0s 1s or 2s at worst. Therefore AGS wouldn''t be giving much 8s 9s 10s very often, if at all. My question is, if every stone that comes out of AGS has a high AGS score, isn''t it a bit circular to say that the stones coming from AGS are great? i.e. if we look at the distribution of AGS scores, (I haven''t, just guessing here) and see that the worst score they give is a 3, (within reasonable standard deviations) then maybe we can construe that a 3 is actually very bad?

I guess what I''m asking here is what is the point of having a grade system that goes down to 10 if supposedly only the best get sent there (iirc only 2% of stones on the market are AGS certed) and the worst reasonable score one would expect is a 3? I guess the danger here is that over time, the people at AGS might be so used to giving 0s - 3s that even sent a very bad stone, it would get a 4. Could that happen?
 
Duh!

Many diamonds get 3 or even 4 certs before being sold
 
Paul is the only one Iv seen pay for a report with a 1 grade on it.
Mostly everyone else just gets the cheaper report with no grade.
So you will see very few AGS1''s with the cut grade listed and certainly no 2s.
 
So are you both saying that AGS only gives 0s and 1s?

Isn''t that an issue? A 0 can therefore be construed as the "top 50%" of AGS certed stones... hmm
 
no - dealers never pay for the full printed report - they cut and run after the initial result and send the stone to another lab
 
This is hardly limited to reports from AGS. The same problem exists with GIA, EGL, IGI and even the appraisers. Dealers choose the lab in order to get the best possible selling tool. If someone other than you was the lab client, you have an automatic filter being applied by that dealer who ordered the exam. Why did they choose the lab they chose for that particular stone? Why did they choose to show you the report as part of the sales presentation? How many different labs did they use before deciding which one to show to you?

Of course no one is going to order a DQD with a cut grade of 7. That doesn’t mean that 7’s don’t exist, only that no one is willing to pay for a report the advertises it. Would you? AGS offers alternative reports with no cut grade at all and GIA offers reports with a considerably easier scale so that 7 may very well be ‘very good’ on the GIA scale. There are other labs where it might be a ‘super premium ideal’ on their scale.

It’s not the lab that makes a beautiful diamond beautiful. That’s a collaboration between hand of God and the genius of the cutter. The dealer’s job is to present it in a way that shows it off in it’s best light. This is what sales people are SUPPOSED to do. For some, this is best done with an AGS DQD while others are better presented with other types of sales materials.

0 means that the dealer ordering the report thought it was ideal and they were right.
1 means that they expected it to grade ideal and they were wrong.
2 means that they expected ideal and they were stupid.
3+ means that they didn't understand the question.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
 
The same issue applies to clarity for example. I don’t recall every seeing an AGSL graded I-2, even though this exists on the grading scale and the stones are plentiful. It’s not that there are no I-2’s out there, it just doesn’t make any sense to pay for a high end lab report to describe them. It pays better to sell them without the paper and keep the price down or to order a report from some lab that’ll call it an SI2 and then sell it at a ‘discount’ when compared to other SI2’s.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
 
Date: 8/5/2007 8:43:51 AM
Author: denverappraiser

0 means that the dealer ordering the report thought it was ideal and they were right.
1 means that they expected it to grade ideal and they were wrong.
2 means that they expected ideal and they were stupid.
3+ means that they didn''t understand the question.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
ROFL maybe its just the sleepless night but that made me crack up laffin for 5 min.
36.gif
36.gif
9.gif
 
Date: 8/5/2007 9:03:50 AM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 8/5/2007 8:43:51 AM
Author: denverappraiser

0 means that the dealer ordering the report thought it was ideal and they were right.
1 means that they expected it to grade ideal and they were wrong.
2 means that they expected ideal and they were stupid.
3+ means that they didn''t understand the question.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
ROFL maybe its just the sleepless night but that made me crack up laffin for 5 min.
36.gif
36.gif
9.gif
LoL yes Neil, that was good for a laugh
3.gif


hmmm I didn''t know dealers had the option to simply not pay for the report if the grade wasn''t to their liking. That''s odd, how labs can allow dealers to use the better half of their service (i.e. crunch the numbers, come up with a grade) and then not getting paid half the time. Amazing they are ok with that...
 
Date: 8/5/2007 10:27:05 AM
Author: echelon6

hmmm I didn''t know dealers had the option to simply not pay for the report if the grade wasn''t to their liking. That''s odd, how labs can allow dealers to use the better half of their service (i.e. crunch the numbers, come up with a grade) and then not getting paid half the time. Amazing they are ok with that...

They can''t. Some of the labs, notably EGL-USA offer a ''pregrade'' service where they will tell you the grade before they print up the final report and the customer has the option to bail out at that time but this is still a billable service. It''s just a bit less expensive. GIA and AGS don''t offer this although AGS will allow you to change the order from a DQD to a DQR depending on the grading conclusions.

More typically they simply pay for the report, trash it, and move on to another lab.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
 
Oh...

Then being "stupid" would be expensive huh
3.gif


Out of interest, how much does it cost the dealer for an AGS DQD?
 
Yes, stupid mistakes can be costly. Don’t make too many of them and it’s not so bad but if you get into the habit it they can add up quickly. As Garry points out, it’s not unusual for a stone to have 2 or even 3 labs examine it and this is a significant contribution to the final cost of the stones. In most cases lab fees are more than cutting costs.

AGSL only does work for the trade and they don’t publicly publish their rates but they’re fairly similar to GIA’s, which are published here. For those who don't happen to be in Las Vegas, shipping charges must also be considered.

http://www.gia.edu/gemtradelab/31548/fees.cfm#diamond_grading

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
 
if that is true about lab grades being more than cutting cost why is that that the guys at local jewelry stores charge 1.5X time price for uncertified diamonds of the same quality?

One guy (who actually is an AGS affiliate jeweler I found through the AGS consumer website) told me that he didn't have any diamonds in my .6ct size that were certified. But he did have some that he had picked up while traveling in another country and he graded himself. They were more expensive, as I said, than the certed ones online.

(he was also the guy who told me, on inquiry to understand the AGS girdle measurements--thanks there again JQ as you were the one who answered my questions for me, though you did it in 2005--he told me that I was being ridiculous and wasting my time. He told me that cut does not matter at all unless you are spending at least 200,000 Dollars on the diamond, then you MIGHT want to start worrying about the cut
4.gif
He was a funny fellow.)

Anyway, I would still imagine a crazy guy like him would sell uncertified diamonds for less if lab grades run such high cost and they are able to cut all of that cost out?

EDIT:

Or rather, on actually following that link (your "Here" link actually re-links this page by the way) how much does it cost to cut a diamond? about 150-300 bucks is all!?
 
I’m not sure why the ‘here’ link isn’t working and I'm too late to edit it but a cut and paste of the URL from the next line will get you to the price list. The prices vary by stone size and it ranges from a minimum of $53 for stones below 0.22cts to $217 for 3 caraters. It goes as high as several thousand for the really big rocks.

Most dealers charge less for otherwise comparable ‘uncertified’ goods. How your particular jeweler set his prices is, of course, entirely up to him. If he can get 1.5x more for uncertified goods, he would be wise to throw out all of his certs and sell the stones without them. I suspect that it has more to do with his general business model and that he charges more for everything in the store than the deep discounters do because he has higher expenses to cover the ‘free’ addons that come with a local showroom and sales floor. Ask him to explain.

By the way, watch out for the term 'affiliate' with regard to AGS membership. Stores are either members or they aren't and the member firms tend to advertise it proudly. People use affiliate to mean that some employee of the store once was an AGS titleholder. This is very different from being a member firm. The AGS website will only point you to current member firms but this term has started to crop up more and more as AGSL gets better distribution of the branded lab services and it's becoming a problem so I thought I would mention it.

In India, where most diamonds are cut these days, $50/ct. is decidedly expensive. US cutters charge on the order of a few hundred per carat. Brand name cutters can charge even more.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
 
yea, sorry, I found him through the site. And the best I could find locally was the same price for uncerted. but I stopped looking to hard after a couple of unscrupulous characters and found there was no reason not to risk it online if I couldn''t trust people in the stores anyway.
 
Date: 8/5/2007 5:56:11 AM
Author: echelon6

So are you both saying that AGS only gives 0s and 1s?

Isn't that an issue? A 0 can therefore be construed as the 'top 50%' of AGS certed stones... hmm


Not a problem. Remember that AGSL grades a single-digit percentage (a low one as I recall) of the world's diamonds.

A HS guidance counselor would never send a student to Harvard or Yale knowing he wouldn't make it.The counselor matches the student with an institution where he has the greatest chance of success. Why would a manufacturer send a diamond to AGSL, knowing it will get a lesser cut grade, when he can send it to any number of places with softer -or no - cut standards (and possibly higher color/clarity to boot)? The logical next-question involves 'subjectivity' versus strictness.I'm reminded of
this thread, where I dreamed of golfing with Tiger
2.gif
. It might be of passing interest.

Why a DQR instead of a DQD?If the diamond has cherry proportions that typically receive 0 in light performance it may not have had ideal polish or symmetry.If it has cherry proportions and top grades in polish & symmetry the DQR may have been requested because it costs less, allowing the diamond to be priced more competitively.If the proportions are at an outer limit it may not have been able to qualify for 0 light performance and that could be why the DQR was requested.It's a reasonable question to ask the seller.
 
Thanks John and Neil
 
Status
Not open for further replies. Please create a new topic or request for this thread to be opened.
GET 3 FREE HCA RESULTS JOIN THE FORUM. ASK FOR HELP
Top