AGA-certs

[Buena Girl]

hi,
My b/f and I looked at some loose diamonds today. I think that most (possibly all) of the stones we looked at had AGA-certs. If he purchased one of those stones, would he also need to have it evaluated through GIA? What I am not totally clear about is what the lab papers are for. Is the main purpose of a lab certificate to just inform a consumer about what they are purchasing? Or are the papers needed for anything else like for insurance purposes? Do some insurance companies only accept certain lab certificates?

thanks!

 

[Regular Guy]

Date: 6/25/2005 11:34:38 PM
Author:Buena Girl
Is the main purpose of a lab certificate to just inform a consumer about what they are purchasing?

I think that's right. There's a possibly helpful piece on this in the tutorial.

Best,

 

[perry]

A certification (or report) is nothing more than a report on one labs - and actually one employee at that lab - educated opinion and some facts on the key feature of the diamond.

Carat and dimensions and other hard measurments are facts and can be duplicated by anyone with the appropriate measuring tools.

The Educated Opinon comes in largly on grading color and clarity. There are master stone sets and flaw diagrams available, but even they are not universally standardized and it is quite common for two different appraisers to assign different color & clarity gradings to the same diamond (but should be one of the next grades).

AGA (Acredited Gem Appraisers) is owned and operated by Dave Atlas, otherwise known as "Oldminer" on this forum.

While the best of the larger diamonds (over 1 carat) are now typically sent to a major lab (GIA, AGS, etc) the fact is that a large proportion of other diamonds are graded by firms like AGA if the jewelry store wishes to present an independent certification on that diamond.

Many jewelry stores do not present any certifications but their own for most diamonds.

It is quite possible to find a high quality stone, and a high cut quality stone, with an AGA or similar independent certification. This would even be highly likely if you are looking at 1 carat and less. If the store has a bunck of AGA certs: I''lll bet your in the NE US and most likely within several hours of Philidelphia (AGA largly serves jewelers in the Philidelphia area).

I own a matched pair of 1/4 carat diamonds that only have AGA certs

One thing worth mentioning, which probably is not on the jewelry store certs. AGA provides what I think may be a unique service and can put an IdealScope Image on the cert if you send in a diamond for appraisial and certifcation - which then allows you to claim an equally good replacement diamond if your diamonds are lost or damaged (there can be no arguments about the light return quality of the diamond).

Perry

Perry

 

[carrot]

Gem labs DO NOT certify or guarantee diamonds. Note the disclaimers on all reports.

Labs have trained gemologists examine diamonds and publish a report which is essentially the opinion of the gemologist or, in some cases, more than one gemologist. Some labs also publish measurements of the diamonds, but some (such as GIA) do not provide enough information to evaluate the cut quality.

Reports are not "certs".

Just like among contributors to this forum, opinions vary between gemologists and the same diamond can, and probably will, obtain a somewhat different grade in color, clarity or other attribute from a different gemologist or a different lab. This was clearly demonstrated by a grading survey conducted by Pricescope.

 

[diamondsbylauren]

Some good points Carrot.
A GIA report is NOT a certificate.
The report is the result of a number ( not just one) gemolgists'' opinons.
So, yes, it IS an opinion.
But there is no doubt that GIA''s opinion is accepted over all other gem labs- and no other lab even comes close ( AGS is very good, but limited - basically H&A round diamonds).True, other labs do ofer more info than GIA, but most experts agree- you need to visually inspect the diamond regardless of the report.


Regarding size: Diamonds smaller than 1.00 carat frequently do not have GIA reports. Even the very high quality diamonds undr 1.00 carat.
But over 1.00 carat, on finer diamonds ( say, over $4500) a GIA report is the norm- and lack of one may indicate a consideration.
For example: if a dealer is selling a D/VS1 1.00 diamond with anything other than a GIA report, ask why.
A J/SI1 with EGL is quite a different story.



Now, if Dave Atlas has looked at, and graded a diamond, then it speaks volumes- you could probably even speak to him to confirm the appraisal- that''s worth a lot.

Buena- if you''re looking at a larger than 1.00 in a higher quality, I feel quite sure Dave would also reccmomend a GIA report in additon to his.

 

[oldminer]

While no lab "certifies" diamonds, AGA in Philadelphia and GCAL lab, ownerd by Don Palmieri in NYC, do guarantee our grading will conform, within normal industry standards to GIA grading, or we will make it good. We will do it with a cash adjustment and GCAL does it with a replacement of the stone....

It would be uncommon for anyone to have a major problem with a lab doing honest work. What is unfortuntely common is that a couple major labs do work that must be judged to be intentinally weak or misleading. Uninformed consumers are continually victimized by this and as a small business we can''t do much but watch it happen.

By guaranteeing our own work, we are actively doing what other major labs ought to do. I''d welcome them to offer the same promise of reasonable accuracy.

If folks read our guarantee policy they will see it is indeed limited to a degree, but it holds us to account for improper grading. I think it is what we can afford to do and ought to give consumers a reasonable insight into our overall policy. Don Palmieri agrees and is doing a very similar thing.....He was first and knowing him, I copied his direction with our own version.

 

[Buena Girl]

Thank you everyone for all of the info!

We were looking at loose diamonds that ranged in size from 0.8 to 1.25 carats. Yes, it was an east coast store located in Delaware. Their main location is in Philadelphia and I think the AGA lab is also located in Philadelphia, so maybe that is why all of the stones they showed us had AGA-certs?

We were able to look at a number of stones with various colors, clarites, etc. We also looked at some through scopes and saw the inclusions that were noted on the AGA-certs. Everything seemed spot on and all that and we definitely were not concerned that the diamonds were mislabeled or anything like that. I don''t think any of the stones that we were shown would need to be sent anywhere else to be evaluated.

I usually hear/read about GIA and AGS papers with diamonds, so we were unsure of what exactly the AGA-cert was and what we use it for. So my understanding now is that it is basically the same as GIA or AGS, it is just a different lab that evaluated the diamonds. And my b/f would use it as an added informational tool when he looked at more stones. Is that pretty much the jist of it?

 

[perry]

Buena:

You got it right. Essentially the same as GIA or AGS, just not the "name" nor the "price."

I think one thing that Pricesocpe could do would be to list all of the smaller labs in the US that provide a similar service.

Overall, I suspect that should they be compared that the results would be similar to the major lab survey. Some will come out very well, and some would not.

Perry

 

[IrishEyes]

alright, I''m confused

.

What exactly then, is a "cert" or certificate?? Do people use it as slang for the reports from labs (GIA,EGL, AGS, etc.) ? That''s what it seems like to me. I''ve heard people go into stores and say "what kind of certs come with the stone?" and the jeweler replies with a lab name. What actually certifies a diamond, or does anything?

 

[perry]

The real problem is that apparently that some of the jewelry industry calls this kind of documentation a "Report" or somesuch and make the claim that they don''t certify anything.

Many other industries call such documentation on the properties of an item or a material a "certificate".

In this specific case: The Paper that AGA produces for the diamonds that pass through its lab is actually called an "AGA-CERT" and is labled as "Independent Diamond Quality Grading Certificate" (I am copying it directly from one of them).

The AGA appraisial is on paper with a heading of "Certificate Of Appraisial" (again I am copying the title directly from one).

The generic, industry wide name for this type of paper on any product is "Certificate" weather it be for steel, oil, rubber, a valve, a electronic component, gasoline, etc.

It is my opinon that some of the diamond industry is trying to confuse the issue by claiming a non-standard name for a standard industrial service: The independent certification of a material or an items properties. Depending on the material or item under discussion - some of that certification can be somewhat judgemental.

If you end up in front of a judge: expect them to ask for the "Cert"; and calling it any other name does not change how it is considered in legal terms. Its a "Certificate" of diamond properties.

I believe that AGA decided to use the general industry name.

Perry