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Advice on this pair 4.71 ctw

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Pagalkutti

Rough_Rock
Joined
Sep 23, 2018
Messages
43
Hello folks.. I had another thread on here over the weekend where I was looking for a pair of diamonds of the very good quality and a lot of you were kind enough to educate me on the nuances of excellent cut and also shared some specs around what the cut angles should be etc.

Based on that education ... I have been presented with these 2 stones that fit all the criteria specified. Would appreciate your opinion on these. Gia certs and video of these stones together attached.IMG-20180925-WA0003.jpg
IMG-20180925-WA0002.jpg
Thank you in advance.
 
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Do you require D and VVS1+ for cultural reasons?

You could drop to F VS1 and it would still be colourless and completely eye-clean (although VS1 can vary so would need inspection to confirm) so they would look basically identical unless they were side-by-side with a D stone.

You will pay a (very) hefty premium for D and VVS1 / FL, especially at this size.


If you do wish to purchase the D/VVS1+ stones above, put the diamonds' details into the HCA tool (under the Tools tab at the top of the forum) and post the scores here. Scores under 2.0 are what you are looking for to indicate they are likely to have angles that work well.

If you are open to dropping to F colour and VS clarity, please let us know your budget and we can look for options for you.
 
I ran the above by the tool mentioned above

The 2.41 ct D VVS1 posted a score of 1.4 score
The 2.3 ct D FL posted a score of 1

My price for both these stones is 134 K
 
Ok, excellent, so they score well on the HCA, that is good.

I have to travel for a while now but I'm sure someone else will chime in with some suggestions before I get back - $134k is a very healthy budget!
 
Hi...it is a little bit outside my budget but I will feel better about pulling the trigger if this forum likes these stones and say that they are worth it from a cut, quality and a price standpoint.

Please assume that I want D and VVS1 and above and will not settle for anything less. I know that I can save $$ by going in for lower grades but I am fixated on getting the highest grade.

OoohShiny said:
Ok, excellent, so they score well on the HCA, that is good.

I have to travel for a while now but I'm sure someone else will chime in with some suggestions before I get back - $134k is a very healthy budget!
Click to expand...
 
I’m sorry but that video is terrible, you would think the seller would provide you with a better one instead of sitting in a dark office. Did they provide you ASET image? I think a few here would have an issue with the proportions/angles.
 
Not my favorite in terms of cut and the video doesn't show lots of sparkle/scintillation. Could just be poor quality/lighting but it doesn't wow me - not for that much money!
 
IMG-20180926-WA0000.jpg

Here is a picture of the stones. Probably not the best.

Why is this not your favorite in terms of cut? Both these stones are within the "A cut above" specs posted on whiteflash. What am I missing?
 
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Pagalkutti said:
IMG-20180926-WA0000.jpg

Here is a picture of the stones. Probably not the best.

Why is this not your favorite in terms of cut? Both these stones are within the "A cut above" specs posted on whiteflash. What am I missing?
Click to expand...

Yes, they could be contenders but with GIA you don't get the light performance assessment that you get with AGS labs. With your budget, you should be getting the cream of the crop in terms of cut. I just couldn't drop that kind of money based on the pictures and videos you have been provided.
 
Pagalkutti said:
Hi...it is a little bit outside my budget but I will feel better about pulling the trigger if this forum likes these stones and say that they are worth it from a cut, quality and a price standpoint.

Please assume that I want D and VVS1 and above and will not settle for anything less. I know that I can save $$ by going in for lower grades but I am fixated on getting the highest grade.
Click to expand...
This forum is very 'cut' focused - in that very well cut lower colours and clarities (even eye-clean SI clarity) stones are often preferred over higher colours and clarities, because it is excellent cut that makes a stone really sparkle, not the colour or clarity.

Worldwide, recent trends are for these lower colours and clarities to be in demand, because it means a larger size stone can be bought for a given budget, which often looks virtually identical on the finger to much more expensive higher colour/clarity stones.

That said, it is appreciated that some buyers do prefer and want higher colours, so that is fine - just as long as the buyer knows they are paying a hefty premium for the colour/clarity rarity!


You may struggle to find branded 'SuperIdeal' stones (e.g. Whiteflash ACA, Crafted by Infinity, Brian Gavin Diamonds) in D/E VVS+ because demand is much lower, as mentioned.

WF has one 2.2ct E VVS2 ACA:
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4024617.htm

but CBI/HPD has nothing over VS1 in D-F colours at the moment, and Brian Gavin only has a couple of VVS stones in D-F coming soon as part of their Advance selection.


You could consider contacting WF and HPD to enquire about a couple of Custom Cut stones - IIRC HPD recently cut a 3ct D FL earring for a chap, there's a thread about it somewhere.
https://www.hpdiamonds.com/en-us/diamonds/diamonds-crafted-order
https://www.whiteflash.com/about-diamonds/faq/will-whiteflash-custom-cut-a-diamond-for-me-1557.htm


Please do consider, though, that FL stones become IF when set (because, I presume, there is some minor abrasion of external surfaces during fitting, due to the prongs/setting needing to touch it).

Additionally, both FL and IF stones are only graded under 10x magnification (as are all diamonds), so with a 20x or 30x loupe, or a microscope, they may well still have inclusions within them.

It is for this latter reason that VVS2 is often considered as high as you need to go in order to guarantee a stone being 'eye-clean' - I bought a VVS2 and I struggle to find the tiny feather inclusion with a loupe, nevermind with the naked eye. VVS1 and IF and FL are 'overkill' because they look no different to VVS2 or a good VS1, but I appreciate the 'mind-clean' aspect of VVS1+.


Just to throw an option out here, there is this 3.28ct E VVS2 with HCA1.7 at 9.45mm x 9.48mm (with high crown and small table for great fire potential) for just over $60k...
https://www.adiamor.com/Diamonds/3....Cut-Round-Diamond/D42193606?&refer=pricescope
(To check, what are your thoughts on Fluorescence?)

That's a whole 1mm more diameter, or an extra 22% (almost a quarter!) more surface area.

You can check out other options using the search tool at the top of the forum:
https://www.pricescope.com/diamonds...=1&pageview=24&adv=true&days=100&cert_number=
 
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Hello folks.. .Understand this forum is very cut focused and I am asking for an opinion on exactly that.... The cut.

I posted 2 stones with the specs and the angles and need an opinion on the cut. I do not have the Aset image etc .... But we do have the angles etc from the Gia certificate.

Can we keep aside the fact that this is D, Flawless etc and just agnostically look at the cut? I made sure that these specs are within spec of even whiteflash's A cut above specification.

Given that... Is there anything in the proportions of these stones that is concerning from a cut standpoint?
 
There is much more that goes into the WF ACA branding than just the specs - same as with all vendors that carry super ideal cut stones. They are vetted for light performance among other things which tells them how the angles work together and the amount of sparkle they produce. GIA also rounds their numbers so that they can be a be skewed depending on what they are. That's why people are telling you to make sure you have more info to analyze them with such as ASET, etc.

You should, in my opinion, be working with vendors that have the ability to provide you with evaluations of stones that would let you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are worth the money.
 
IMG-20180928-WA0002.jpg IMG-20180928-WA0003.jpg
 
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Looks like they had Aset images ready to go in the database. Can someone help me interpret these?
 
The top one appears to have light leakage and the arrows are very different from each other, one thin one thick. I don’t think I would like that.

Have you considered going custom cut?
 
Yes I did get quotes for custom cut......I would be paying around 144k for 2-2.08 carat stones each one being D vvs1 and other D - IF

These are 2.3 and 2.41.... And the quote is 134k.

How bad are these based on the Aset images? I know these are not the best images but do they convey the pertinent information?
 
Pagalkutti said:
Here is a picture of the stones.
Click to expand...


Great shot! Folks make jewels like that: WWW (round diamonds set into red not blue squares)

I do overdo stuff I do too; it is a great pleasure.
 
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Hi AV. .. Sorry I did not follow your response. Can you please break it down for me?


AV_ said:
Great shot! Folks make jewels like that: WWW (round diamonds set into red not blue squares)

I do overdo stuff I do too; it is a great pleasure.
Click to expand...
 
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There is little connection between the two sentences I wrote above:

#1 I like the picture: it might not be technically informative in the sense that ASET shotsare, but it is a beautiful shot... It obviously reminded me of Taffin designs, as I wrote.

#2 I would not trust myself to recognize E/VS from D/IF, so, in this sense, choosing a measure of quality that is not obvious might, arguably, be called 'overdoing'. Sometimes, it feels great to 'overdo' things in this sense - it is random & personal.

The pair leaves nothing to wish for! (not even what I said on the other thread)
 
I'm not confident on assessing these (computer-generated?) ASET images but, as noted above, I wonder if there may be some leakage under the tables. If they are being worn as earrings then I think the different LGFs (giving thinner/fatter arrows) shouldn't be an issue because they won't be worn side-by-side.

As noted above, WF (and other) 'SuperIdeal' vendors do tend to have small ranges of angles and measurements they cut within, but it is the increased accuracy and consistency of cutting that works to enhance light return and visual performance over standard GIA XXX stones (that can have a range of differences within a particular set of facets due to less focus on cut quality).

The main difficulty with finding really good cuts in GIAXXX D and VVS+ stones is that cutters get so much more money per 0.1ct weight retained that they are basically forced to cut for weight retention, not accuracy or light performance or beauty. Are these particular stones perhaps symptomatic of this ongoing situation? Potentially. But are they "the best of what's out there" that isn't a more expensive 'SuperIdeal'? I don't know...

So... in terms of a yes or a no to the stones listed... I don't feel confident myself to guide you to that decision, I'm afraid. They certainly are not terrible, but like others, I think it would be really good if you could see what a SuperIdeal looks like, so that you can buy from a fully informed position and know if you are happy to trade off enhanced light performance for larger size.

To ask the question, would you be able to purchase perhaps the previously mentioned 2ct+ WF ACA so that you can review it in your own home, and also take it to the jewellers and look at it side by side with the two stones you are looking at? I believe Returns are hassle-free, so you could return it if you still preferred the current stones or did want to go ahead with custom cuts in a slightly smaller size.
 
The stones are out of the country I am buying blind but through a jeweler I trust who is a family friend etc

Right now I feel like I am splitting hairs. I followed all the advice I got on this thread and the other thread. These stones are within specs of everything mentioned here and at white flash.

So now there could be a chance that they may not be cut to the nth degree perfection that Brian Garvin or whiteflash cuts them

If they turn out to not so excellent (doubt that) I can always have them recut for a few thousand dollars to pursue the last few % points of perfection. At 2.3 and 2.41 ct the stones can easily support a recut. I will probably still be ahead on terms of what I am paying based on the 134k I am paying right now.

I am a little exhausted at this point
 
These are NOT the best match! I can clearly see the 0.1mm diameter size difference.
Carat weight: Does not match
Diameter: Does not match
Table: Does not match
Crown angle: Does not match
Crown height: Does not match
Girdle: Does not match
Lower half: Does not match
At last, the 2.3ct is much better cut and superior diamond than the 2.41ct.
I would buy the 2.3ct but not the 2.41ct and I would continue looking for matching stone.
 
Hello Eva Evans... Will the size difference be noticeable if worn as earrings?
 
Or do I do the deal as is and get the 2.41 cut to match the 2.3 better?
 
Honestly, I would go with a match pair custom cut even with them being 10k more I think t would be worth it. I say this because if you purchase these and then have them recut you run the risk of the stone being damaged or worse (heaven forbid)
 
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Pagalkutti said:
Or do I do the deal as is and get the 2.41 cut to match the 2.3 better?
Click to expand...
If you recut the 2.41ct most probably you will still not match it to the 2.3ct in a perfect way.
One advise buying a pair of diamonds: Combining two SIMILAR diamonds does not make them matching pair!
An extremely well matched pair of diamonds cost MORE that two single diamonds.
You can ask the vendor to find you better match!
On your previous tread there was a suggestion of E, VS1 pair, that was example of well matched diamonds.
 
The two stones in the original post would not meet my requirements for studs for myself. They would need to be closer in weight and diameter, and I’d want the lower girdle facet percent to be closer. 75 is fatter pavilion facets and 80 is skinny. I would want those numbers to be no more than 2 apart.

With your budget, you should be able to get great cut, well matched stones. I probably said this on your first thread, but I’d rather have superideal cut E-F VS1’s any day over the stones above. I’d expect the most perfectly cut diamonds at any budget, but especially at $100k+.
 
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