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Adult Self Esteem

Discussion in 'Family, Home & Health' started by Mannequin, Dec 10, 2006.

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  1. Mannequin
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    by Mannequin » Dec 10, 2006
    Recently my fiance'' has been having a lot of trouble with self esteem. In the four years I have known him, I have seen him down on himself but never to this degree. His moods and attitude are starting to affect me, which is both frustrating and scary. I have a lot of self confidence and though I am being as supportive as possible, I am having a hard time understanding what it is he is experiencing and why. We talk about this almost daily, and I am as positive as I can be, but sometimes I feel he is so unreachable. I was hoping that in the vast range of knowledge and life experiences held by the members of this forum, I could get some advice or suggestions of resources to help us out.

    In a psychology class text, I recall that I read about a number of major stressors in a person''s life, and he has so many of them right now - new job, getting married, living with a new person, etc. To give a little background, he is from a family that went through a divorce due to alcoholism (father) when he was about 12. His father passed away when he was in high school and his mother is remarried. He is exceptionally bright and always did very well with his studies, though he was and is very forgetful. He spent a lot of time with other academics-minded people competing in Quiz Bowl and College Bowl. He does not have many hobbies he regularly pursues other than playing NTN trivia at the bar with some of these people from past trivia teams. He just graduated law school in May with no outstanding debt due to scholarships, and he studied for and passed the bar exam this summer. He is currently in his first real job with an immigration law firm. Many of his friends from high school through law school do not currently live in our area. He proposed in May and we are planning a wedding for next July. We also began living together in late June in an apartment with one cat. His great grandmother, one of his primary caretakers when he was younger, passed away in mid-May, and he is looking for a new job. Also, FI is a typical Virgo, which of all astrological signs tends to be the one most self critical and most likely to analyze everything with a fine toothed comb. He tends to worry a lot over many things that have or have not yet happened, and he is very cautious about making any decisions quickly. He has lost about 15 pounds since July, which I fear are mostly due to stress and not me trying to help him eat better. Hopefully I am not finding what he loses...[​IMG]

    Work has been the most mentioned over everything he says he worries about right now. Immigration law was a subject he did very well in when he took the course in law school, enough to make his professor notice his talents and offer him a position at his own firm. It''s a small firm and my FI is the youngest lawyer on staff by about ten years. He feels he doesn''t fit in well with these people at all. I met his boss and the rest of his coworkers at a holiday party yesterday and I can see why he feels he does not fit in - they have so many more interests and life experiences than he does at this point, and he really doesn''t have much to add to their conversations other than textbook snippets. His boss has told him that he is handling the work as expected and doing well, but that he is too tense. He admits that he spends a lot of time worrying about what will go wrong or pose a challenge to his limited legal abilities instead of focusing on doing every job as well as he can. FI has told me that he is currently looking for another job because he feels that he is "not able to handle the responsibility" of his current position. I am aware that this type of law probably utilizes maybe only 5% of what he learned in school, and that the paperwork is tedious for him, but I am concerned that in his search for something "simpler", he is going to find faults in the new job, become overwhelmed and disappointed, and just begin this depressive cycle again.

    He has been going to counseling, where they are focusing on self esteem and self love, and he just started taking two ADHD medication that have an anti-depressant effect when combined. I try to listen and be supportive at home as well, but everything is starting to weigh me down too. I am trying to be upbeat and be happy about the wedding coming up and capably handle my work at school, but when I come home it''s a lot like a black hole swooped in and sucked all the light out of the room. I worry that I can''t do this "until death do us part", that I would be compromising my own happiness. I am reading "The Conscious Bride" and that seems to help me with the engagement and marriage related concerns I have to a degree, but I am feeling like I am at a loss with what to do to help my fiance''.

    We have gotten a few books for him (The Art of Loving, and a Carnegie book on worrying less), and I have suggested trying some new things like attending a favorite local band''s concerts regularly and signing up for classes at the local rec center. We talk constantly about all the positives he has in his life. I point out constantly how happy he makes our little rescued kitty Chandler when he plays with and cares for him. The counseling and the medication is also in place as of recently. Is there anything else that we could do? Can you suggest helpful books? Web links? I want to make sure I am covering all bases. It breaks my heart to see him so sad and self absorbed...[​IMG]
     
    


    


  2. KimberlyH
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    by KimberlyH » Dec 10, 2006
    Equestrienne,

    I am so sorry you are going through this. It sounds like you are internalizing a lot of the pressures he is feeling and they are sinking you both. What a struggle.

    It sounds like he is trying to do the right thing through counseling and such. Being proactive in ones own life is essential. It also sounds like you couldn't be any more supportive and loving/giving of yourself if you tried.

    Might I suggest that instead of discussing the possibilities of taking a class or getting involved in a hobby I would take the initiative to sign you both up and then just tell him, honey, guess what we're doing this weekend/Thursday night/every Sunday for the next 6 weeks.

    I have the worry gene you are referring to and the best way for me to deal with it, when I get too tense, is distraction. I love to read, cook and exercise so I throw myself into projects that re-focus me on something enjoyable and positive when I am too engulfed in things I can't control. It sounds like he is too caught up in his frustrations to find distractions on his own so perhaps you taking the initiative would be a really positive and helpful thing.

    I wouldn't determine his job search is a mistake, perhaps it will be a really smart move on his part. I say this because I worked at a small public affairs firm that required a lot of me and I thrived there because I loved what I was doing. I moved 500 miles to live near my now husband, then boyfriend, and had to find a new position. I joined a mid-sized real estate company in the HR Department. It was not nearly as intensive work, the time constraints, deadlines and fast pace that I was accustomed to were gone but I was miserable and felt a different sort of pressure because I was a fish out of water in that environment. The public affairs firm's success was built on the quirky intelligence of the staff, we were encouraged to share ideas, think outside of the box, be ourselves; the real estate company environment was very much based on conforming, keeping one's head down, eyes forward and doing as we were told. There was no room for creativity, suggestions, etc. I despise complaining, so I never talked about my frustrations, but John knew I was miserable and that the situation needed to change. I felt stuck though. He encouraged me to pursue different avenues, which has led me back to school (I'm working on earning my M.A. in Education and teacher's credential). Sorry for being so longwinded, my point is that the change in job has changed who I am. I am so much more content and satisfied now, I am so much more happy and it has such a great effect on mine and John's relationship. So perhaps, the job is more than he can handle, right now. It sounds like he is being extremely responsible in looking for a new position as opposed to acting erratically and just leaving, so I think I would trust him to make this choice, but explain your concerns to him as they are valid and need to be heard.

    As for other suggestions, I highly recommend you seek couples counseling of some sort. It sounds like you are bearing the brunt of this burden and it is causing you to question your choice in a partner. Starting off a marriage with doubt is not a good idea.

    I wish you the very best of luck. I can only imagine how difficult this is for you as I know how hard it was for John and my only issues were/are that I am a worry wart and I hated my job, I was/am otherwise a pretty happy-go-lucky human being.
     
  3. justjulia
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    by justjulia » Dec 10, 2006
    Well, let''s see. I am not a md or psychologist, but I do have close family members who have suffered from mental issues all their lives, and I work as a speech pathologist with children and adolescents with adhd. What I know is that: a) medications take time to take effect, particularly seritonin uptake inhibitors that are in many antidepressant acting drugs, and b) combinations sometimes have to be tweaked to interract the way a particular person needs them to, which takes trial and error. Rarely does the first "cocktail" work like intended, c) some adhd medications have the effect of causing a person to be even more "wired," meaning that is not the right medication for that person at that time. The weight loss can be a side effect of the medications.

    This sounds like a tough period, with the new job and not living near old network friends. I applaud him for getting all this help and I applaud you for being the super supportive person you appear to be. Many people live full and happy lives, once the medication and sources of stress are sorted out. Your fi seems so isolated at work-- that must be a terrible feeling being in that environment every day. I think a lot can be said about finding your niche and a job that fits you and not everyone else''s expectations. Maybe going through the motions at least of looking for another job will be uplifting and empowering for him. Can he get a good headhunter to help him find his dream job?
    Tell him to keep communicating with his doctor about how apprehensive he is feeling. It is a "process" to find the right medicine combination. Hang in there.
     
  4. AmberGretchen
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    by AmberGretchen » Dec 10, 2006
    Wow equestrienne. First of all, let me say how sorry I am that you are going through this. Ultimately the big decisions in this situation are ones you will have to make yourself, but I think its easy to get caught up in the situation and so posting here is a good way to (hopefully) get some advice that may clarify things for you a bit, or even just make you feel more supported. That said, I would like to try to share some insight based on my own experiences and those of my friends and family, and I sincerely hope they are helpful to you. If not, please feel free to disregard and take just the sentiment of support, which is very sincerely meant.

    I think that what you''re describing is something that many bright and driven people go through at one time or another. I can say this from personal experience because myself, my DH, my parents, and many of my friends all fit into this category. Almost all of them have, at some point in their lives (or at many points in their lives), experienced what you are describing that your FI is going through. One very interesting thing that I learned when I went away to college at an Ivy League school and met a bunch of driven and smart kids like myself, was that we were all pretty dysfunctional in some way or another and a lot of it stemmed from insecurity. My DH went through a period like this when we were engaged - he hated his job, and like your FI felt he couldn''t relate to his co-workers at all, plus he was in a situation where he didn''t have confidence in the job he was doing, mostly because of his inexperience (just out of college). Like you, I questioned things at this time because it felt like it was a full-time job and so emotionally draining to try to support him. Like your FI, my DH went into counseling and went on medication. I am pleased to report that in his case, while the issues aren''t gone, they have improved tremendously, and I no longer feel I am coming home to a dark hole, in fact, most days things are very pleasant.

    So what made the difference? Well, medication and counseling helped. Also, in my DH''s case, taking pro-active steps towards improving his work situation (in his case this meant taking classes in a field he would like to transition into). But really, time was the biggest thing, and giving the medication and counseling free rein to take effect. But this doesn''t always happen. My parents are another good example. My father will likely never be happy because he will never let himself be. He has never conquered his self-absorption or his insecurity nor been able to move past it. My mom, on the other hand (they''ve been divorced since I was little), has gotten herself most of the way through it. She and I had a breakdown in our relationship when I was 13, and she took a really long hard look at things in therapy, and was able to get through the other side by, again, taking actions to improve the situation (quitting a stressful job, actively seeking out new friendships, etc..).

    I really applaud you for taking an honest look at this situation and for trying to think about how to make it better for both your FI and yourself. I think the first thing you should try to do is give it more time, as tough as that is. Medication and counseling can both take a fair amount of time to help with this issues, but its important to recognize that your FI is taking steps to try to improve, and that''s crucial. During that time, try to take more time for yourself. Anything that makes you feel indulged is good here, whether its volunteering somewhere, buying yourself treats, getting a manicure, engaging in your favorite sport, whatever. The more you maintain your independent identity and feel you are doing good things for yourself, the better you''ll be able to get through this. Also try to encourage your FI to take pro-active steps to improve his own situation. If he is missing his friends, try to encourage him to contact them (or them to contact him). Also try to find places for him to make new friends. Maybe encourage him to start looking into alternative career paths if this one doesn''t seem to be best for him. Anything that will constitute him moving in a positive, forward direction is good. The more concrete the steps are, the better. But be prepared for some backsliding - there are good days and bad days.

    Finally, recognize that ultimately the decision to get better or not is his, and his alone. You can help and support him, which will be invaluable, but he has to do the most important work himself. As I said, its very encouraging that he is in counseling and on medication, because that indicates a willingness to pursue change which is the most important thing.

    Again, I''m so very sorry that you are dealing with this and I hope that was helpful but if not then I hope at least the support that was intended is helpful and that you will find some of the insight you seek here.
     
    


    


  5. poptart
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    by poptart » Dec 10, 2006
    First off, let me say how sorry I am that both of you are going through this. I don't know much about this, other than the fact that both DH and I have both gone through something similar in the past year or so. I second the idea for couple's counseling and getting his medication checked again. My DH also has ADHD, but he has actually "trained" himself to not let it take over all the time so he doesn't need any medication anymore, but I definitely think that you FI should get his checked and maybe changed. I know it's hard, but don't give up! States like this are hard, but passing. When DH and I went through ours (at different times) it made it hard for the other person, but we worked through it together. May I also suggest going away for a weekend? Like take a whole weekend where you don't talk about work, don't talk about the future, just live NOW. I am a worrier like no other and my husband often does this for me. He says, "Today we aren't going to talk about anything intense, we are just going to focus on today". And for that day or weekend we go to the parks, dinner and a movie, and just spend quality time together NOT stressing. This helped me immensly and he does this about once a month or so and it really calms me down. And as long as you address the issue head on normally, then I think this is perfectly healthy. It's not healthy to work seven days a week, and it is certainly not healthy to stress out 24/7. I am sure the two of you can work through this, but like someone said before, couples counseling will definitely help, I bet. Best wishes!

    *M*
     
  6. VRBeauty
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    by VRBeauty » Dec 10, 2006
    Equestrienne:

    I'm very sorry that you and your DF are going though this. I'm not sure if you indicated that your DF has depression, but that's what his behavior sounds like to me.

    Please consider recommending Al-anon or ACA to your BF. You might consider counseling or Alanon for yourself, too.

    I'm glad that you're willing to reach out for help in this situation. As for wondering about the future of your relationship, I personally think that's fair game. One of my colleagues is has been married for many years someone whose depression is apparently untreated. It's painful to see the impact that it has had on her.

    *** hugs*** and best wishes.
     
  7. Kit
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    by Kit » Dec 10, 2006
    Oh, no. [​IMG] I am so sorry to hear about your troubles.

    I really do sympathize with you as someone who has struggled with depression. It can be very debilitating and especially hard for the loved ones of the depressed. I really think that you should be paying attention to yourself as much as to helping FI get better.

    My dad is a self-medicating/alcoholic bipolar and my mom is his enabler. It is classic. It does not at all sound like this is the case with your relationship, but I would recommend that you too go into therapy to blow off some of your own steam, to stay healthy, and to ward off any potential codpendent issues...I am just sensitive to this issue from my own background. The stronger you can be for yourself, the more help you will be to your FI, I think.

    I hope that the situation improves for you two. Hugs.

    ETA: As I re-read your post, it does seem like he is very accomplished, despite the hardships of his childhood. Has he ever had therapy for the childhood traumas? This is very dangerous stuff if just left alone. I think the self-esteem, self-love stuff is important but has he really done some excavating around his childhood? This is what caused my dad to have bipolar (and possibly also a personality disorder). I really really hope that you address this, if you haven't already, because it is so scary what can happen mentally to a person who has been through childhood trauma. Your FI has triumphed over it in many ways, but it still may be at the root of his unhappiness.
     
  8. Cheekyprincess
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    by Cheekyprincess » Dec 10, 2006
    I went through something similar and it sounds like you both are doing everything right! It is hard to deal with especially if it is something that has been festering inside of him for a long time (as it was with me). Make sure he is not bashing himself up inside- I would always tell myself how worthless I was, and you keep telling yourself you truely will believe it! watch his eating and sleeping habits as they will mirror what he is feeling inside- any major difference and something is not right. Do simple fun things together like going for walks, outdoorsy stuff that allows you not to feel trapped. A weekend getaway would be great as well.

    Good luck with this, I hope he is feeling better soon!
     
  9. ladykemma
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    by ladykemma » Dec 11, 2006
    ditto to all minims said - al anon for both of you.

    family of origin work is extremely hard and al anon got me to the point where i was willing to look at this stuff.

    i am married to a man with diagnosed chronic depression and dependent personality disorder, fun ain''t it?
     
  10. fire&ice
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    by fire&ice » Dec 12, 2006
    I''m so sorry to hear of your troubling situation.

    My only suggestion would be for him to do some volunteer work. Maybe some pro-bono immigration cases? Maybe some sort of animal rescue? It gives you purpose & opens up doors in terms of conversation and self worth.

    Everyone needs something that gives them purpose - be it a hobby, collecting, volunteering or in your case your horses give you respite from the world at hand.

    I completely understand the holiday party thing. It''s quite intimidating when you don''t have the life experiences to converse in their league. Life experiences come with life experiences. School is all he knew. The transition is hard to make. You have to build on experiences & not be afraid to try new things. You may suck at it - but you have that experience to take with you.

    Maybe take some classes in photography, metalworking, crafts, music, doing pottery, etc.

    I''m sure he is doing fine at his job. He''s just new & inexperienced compared to his co-workers. That is to be expected.

    Good luck.
     
    


    


  11. MINE!!
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    by MINE!! » Dec 12, 2006
    I do not think Al Anon or AA groups would help, matter a fact they will have the opposite effect.

    AA would make him more angry AND AL Anon is for people who are still living in a Alcoholic situation. I got sooooo sick of hearing, you can only love them, you cannot make them better..blah blah blah blah.. so basically we are asked to stay miserable... bullshnit.

    I started going to ACA (Adult Children of Alcoholics) meetings, and it took a while, but eventually they did help. If for nothing to hear someone talk about their situation and know that I wasn't alone.
     
  12. Mannequin
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    by Mannequin » Dec 12, 2006

    Thank you all so much for your responses. It was so helpful for me to post this to get off my chest what we’ve been going through and what I’ve been upset about for nearly six months. I wanted to be sure that I had done everything I possibly could think of and more, and the advice you are all offering has been fabulous food for thought.


    KimberlyH – thanks so much for your support and offering your experience with changing jobs. This is something I have never truly done and since I do not have my own perspective on this, hearing about your situation and what you have done is helpful. We have done the premarital counseling together already and he is doing some solo counseling with a person currently. If it seems that this counselor cannot help him make some progress, I will suggest to FI the possibility of a couples counselor.


    justjulia – thank you, the drug information was really helpful. I will keep that in mind as he starts increasing his dosage so that I can help him watch for anything unusual. No headhunter needed yet, but we’ll address that if necessary. He’s applied to a few places so far and I’ve helped him with the cover letters since writing those seems to stress him the most.


    AmberGretchen – thank you, thank you, thank you. Your story gives me a lot more hope, knowing that it DOES get better and brighter in the end. I am glad that your husband was able to work through his frustrations and is doing better now. My poor FI is so up and down right now, but is having some success with the medicine at this point. I am willing to let time pass to allow for the change to happen.


    poptart – thank you for your support and the “worry free weekend” suggestions you gave us. Although it might be hard to do a weekend away, a fun weekend of events near home or a night in a nice hotel might make a good distraction for BOTH of us.


    MINIMS – thank you for sharing your story. I am so glad that you have found a solution that is working for you. During our premarital counseling, ACA was mentioned to FI as a way to work on improving his self confidence. Though he maintains that his father is not the current problem, I, like you, feel that it is something that contributes to the trouble at hand and needs to address.


    Kit – thank you for sharing your story and lending support. I will be continuing to take time for myself as well as help my FI through this time. I realize how important it is for me to stay mentally healthy and not have both of us in a bad place.


    Cheekyprincess – thank you for your support. I will continue helping him identify positive things and take care of his physical self. The sleeping is a recent problem, but the weight loss has slowly revealed itself over the last few months. I am now closely keeping tabs on his eating, as I don’t want him to make himself waste away or become sickly.


    ladykemma – thank you for your advice and support. I wouldn’t call the situation “fun” by any means, but I am hoping for some improvements soon as the counseling and medications start to help.


    fire&ice – thank you for your support. Your post sounds exactly what I have been telling him regarding life experiences or lack thereof. He gets so hung up on how things are not like they were in college, but he does not realize that that’s the way things are supposed to progress. I wish he had time for some volunteering right now, but hopefully that will be an option later.


    MINE!! – thank you for your post. I think ACA may be a better choice for him should he choose to attend a counseling group of that nature. He does not think that his childhood factors into this current situation, but I believe that his low self esteem and diminished sense of self worth are stemming from his experiences with his dad.


    This week so far, he woke up on Monday wanting to be a CDL truck driver and came home with this epiphany after realizing that he was viewing a project as being much more complicated than it actually was. Today he came home sobbing happily about being a grownup. It’s still very up and down for him every day, but I think things will improve more once the medications reach therapeutic levels. I signed us up for ballroom dancing lessons today. They begin in January and will give us both some exercise and distraction as well as some practice for our wedding in the summer. I also registered for two fitness classes for myself to help burn off steam and make sure my dress fits! I will try to update this thread with any other developments. Thank you all again so much for your help and advice.

     
  13. littlelysser
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    by littlelysser » Dec 13, 2006
    Equestrienne - As a former practicing lawyer, I would not be surprised to learn that a LARGE part of the stress he is dealing with is from practicing law. I really liked law school, was on law review, graduated magna cum laude - but I hated practice. There are people that can deal with the stress of practice and there are people that cannot. I was definitely among those that could not. Lying awake at night worrying about a case. Getting up in the middle of the night to check a case on westlaw. Worrying about whether I'd missed a case or if a case I cited that had other negative language. Ugh. And I can't tell you how many times I'd call my bf (now FI) crying at 10pm from work because I was so frustrated and worried. Ugh. I believe that lawyers have the highest rate of alcoholism of all the professions...and I believe it. It can be a very tough job - particularly for someone that cannot let it go at the end of the day...and that was me...After 4 years I had to get out...just had to.

    I am still in the legal field, but I work for a judge - it is a MUCH better environment with much better hours and so much less stress. Perhaps suggesting something like this for your FI? Admittedly, I took a huge pay cut...but my sanity, happiness and my time to myself make it sooooo worth it.

    I understand that a number of things have happened to your FI in the last few months...but he started working for the firm in what, maybe late August or September? Things probably really started to kickin in a month or so after that...

    I know what working for a firm did to me...and I worked at two firms in the four years I was in private practice...and although the pressures were different, the hours and the stress were the same.

    Now that I'm working for the judge, my friends and family are AMAZED at how relaxed and happy I am...I feel like I'm not defined by my job anymore...and I LOVE it.

    Not sure how much help I can provide...but just thought I'd put my two cents in.
     
  14. fire&ice
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    by fire&ice » Dec 13, 2006
    I was wondering if a lawyer would chime in because what Littlelysser above posted is what many of my lawyer friends experienced - *especially* in the first few years of practice until they weren''t the new pound of flesh & got more into their own "groove" clients.

    And, to add - many were just plain overworked. You wore a badge of honor if your wife & children forgot your name - sad - but true - with many firms (especially the big name ones).

    I''m not trying to dismiss the clinical nature of his state - but just wonder if the world isn''t over whelming him on it''s very own. It can be a very difficult transition, especially for one with a professional degree. You have to find your own groove if it does take some adjustment.
     
  15. jas
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    by jas » Dec 13, 2006
    Equ, I don''t have much to add to this other than my support. My DH has toxic shame and codependency issues...he tried to keep himself "mentally" at a state of equillibrium, refusing to feel highs or lows. Repressing all of that was very painful for him...because the highs and lows come out somehow at some point. You seem to be approaching this correctly, as a "yours, mine, and ours" situation. Good for you! Counseling -- good! Meds -- good! Exercise -- good!

    I found reading "Healing the Shame That Binds You" by Bradshaw helped both of us understand and cope and eventually heal. Even if it doesn''t apply to your specific situation, it does offer some interesting insights into depression as well, which has helped me to work on building a relationship with my very depressed sister.

    If nothing else, you are not alone in this, and I applaud you for worrying about your own happiness. You should -- it actually can cause him pain if he feels he is "bringing you down" with all of this. It is very hard not to get on the emotional roller coaster with a loved one...but you also hit on something -- depression is a very "selfish" disease, and it''s ok for you to say that and to feel that way.

    I hope I''m not oversimplifying all of this...I went through similar engagement stress, and I felt like at times he couldn''t share in the good, the bad, or the ugly. And other times he could.

    Give the counseling some time...it''s not a quick process. It''s not an easy process. And if he''s going to sessions without you, it will be a process you may not be privvy to.

    Please feel free to come here to celebrate your planning, bang your head against the wall, worry, wonder, fret, scream, laugh.

    We''re here for you!

    Jackie
     
    


    


  16. MINE!!
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    by MINE!! » Dec 13, 2006
    I think, that your love may not be giving his childhood enough thought in this. Having a parent as an alcholic effects people DEEPLY, sometimes, without them knowing it. It effects the way we decide and stick with things, the way we interact with people, it effects our insecurities and trust.

    Children who have parents that were alcoholics find it difficult to find peace, trust, and always feel like they are missing something, even when there is nothing wrong. The feel alone, angry, bitter. Children of alcoholics also express alcoholic characteristics, even whent hey do not drink themselves. They have addictive personalities, whether it be to move around, worry or even over eat.

    And of course, as someone mentioned.. the BIG C!!! Codependancy. It is a nasty nasty thing.
     
  17. Mannequin
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    by Mannequin » Dec 14, 2006
    Thank you so much for your post, Jackie. I think that hearing how other people have dealt with similar problems has been helping me and him in managing this.

    MINE, thank you for your continued advice. That type of counseling is still something I would like him to seek. His current counselor does deal in some alcohol related issues, but I think he needs more intensive work in this area than what this man can offer.
     
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