Steel
Ideal_Rock
- Joined
- Jul 8, 2006
- Messages
- 4,884
adoption by gay couples?
- Thread starter Arkteia
- Start date
- Status
MarquiseGirl
Rough_Rock
- Joined
- May 13, 2010
- Messages
- 58
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2008
- Messages
- 56,332
I don''t think this has anything to do with political correctness at all. I agree with Thing and I think this has to do with bigotry. I am sorry but this is how I see it. I am not saying you are bad people so please don''t take offense but I am just saying that feeling this way is no different than being bigoted against any group that is different from you for the simple reason that they are different.
Steel
Ideal_Rock
- Joined
- Jul 8, 2006
- Messages
- 4,884
This monkey will not dance.
I did not realise this was a thread for those only in support of gay adoption. Or is it?
What do you want? Did I not make my thoughts clear? Yes. But you disagree with them.
So what? Maybe I disagree with you.
You will not change my mind and do not think that you can throw an anti-gay comment at me to prove a point That is a cheap shot. But I take it because I expected it.
Do you want my address you can come over and burn something in my front yard?
I did not realise this was a thread for those only in support of gay adoption. Or is it?
What do you want? Did I not make my thoughts clear? Yes. But you disagree with them.
So what? Maybe I disagree with you.
You will not change my mind and do not think that you can throw an anti-gay comment at me to prove a point That is a cheap shot. But I take it because I expected it.
Do you want my address you can come over and burn something in my front yard?
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2008
- Messages
- 56,332
I don't think anyone wants to do that Steal. I think people are just trying to understand why you feel this way and make some sense of it. I don't think anyone expects to change your (or anyone else's) mind on this matter as I am sure you are not trying to change ours. It is (just) a discussion as we are all trying to see everyone's point of view and why. As I said, I don't think anyone is a bad person for the way they think about these issues.
It's just helpful to try and understand each person's point of view to try and understand more about why people think the way they do about certain hot topic issues. I see it as a matter of tolerance and most of the world's problems (IMO) are due to intolerance of people who are different for whatever reason.
In the end I guess we are all going to have to agree to disagree...
It's just helpful to try and understand each person's point of view to try and understand more about why people think the way they do about certain hot topic issues. I see it as a matter of tolerance and most of the world's problems (IMO) are due to intolerance of people who are different for whatever reason.
In the end I guess we are all going to have to agree to disagree...
E B
Ideal_Rock
- Joined
- Aug 31, 2005
- Messages
- 9,491
I try to be accepting of others' views, but the 'unnatural' argument falls short for me. It just doesn't make any sense. Having two gay people raise a child that is not biologically theirs is no less natural than two heterosexuals raising the child if we're bringing it to the level of 'egg meets sperm,' no? It boils down to why a penis + a vagina is more capable of raising a child than two of a kind, and I've yet to hear the reason(s).
What is the real issue, here?
What is the real issue, here?
CNOS128
Ideal_Rock
- Joined
- Jan 28, 2008
- Messages
- 2,700
For me the Florida case In Re Gill (Or in re Adoption of John & James Doe) is enough to convince me that gay couples should be allowed to adopt. These boys were fostered by a gay couple because they were removed from horribly abusive and neglectful parents. Many "natural" parents abuse and neglect their children, and straight and gay couples alike literally save these children''s lives. For me, a safe and loving home trumps heterosexual parenting every time.
Porridge
Ideal_Rock
- Joined
- Oct 27, 2008
- Messages
- 3,267
Imdanny
Ideal_Rock
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2008
- Messages
- 6,186
Well, you're the who said, "If that is the natural order who are we to place that INNOCENT in a less than predetermined ideal."
Three people (at last count) are trying to tell you that saying things like same-sex couples are a THREAT to the INNOCENCE of children is anti-gay bigotry.
What? You want people to lie to you?
At least for me, it's not about YOU, it's about WHAT YOU ARE SAYING AND THE WAY YOU ARE SAYING IT. Things like that are totally offensive, although maybe you don't see it.
Steel
Ideal_Rock
- Joined
- Jul 8, 2006
- Messages
- 4,884
Steel
Ideal_Rock
- Joined
- Jul 8, 2006
- Messages
- 4,884
Date: 6/29/2010 9:31:21 PM
Author: Imdanny
Well, you''re the who said, ''If that is the natural order who are we to place that INNOCENT in less than predetermined ideal.''
Three people (at last count) are trying to tell you that saying that same-sex couples are a THREAT to the INNOCENCE of children is anti-gay bigotry.
What? You want people to lie to you?
You can pretend to misinterpret what I am saying all night long if you like. So, do you?
If you believe that my comment and yours are identical in content and or meaning then you might as well bow out. You are suffering in your comprehension.
pennquaker09
Brilliant_Rock
- Joined
- Nov 2, 2007
- Messages
- 1,943
Steal, isn't that wishful thinking? Some kids are raised by their own mother and father and are abused. Some kids are ignored by their parents. I would know, my parents barely acknowledged my existence. And I think thingof2's logic makes perfect sense. I think your ideal would assume everyone is heterosexual and has the desire to get married. That's the only way it would be ideal.
On the subject of adoption. Nate and I decided we wanted to adopt when the time comes to expand our family and the process was kind of eye opening. With surrogacy, we didn't have to do a lot of the things required of us to get certified to adopt, but they both share a certain stress factor. It's one of those things only the most commited of couples, gay or straight, would do.
More than likely, we're going to adopt an African American child, and I was kind of surprised at how direct the questions were in regards to that. But I think they only ask those questions if you indicate you would like to adopt a child of color.
I don't remember who mentioned it, but I do worry about sending my kids to school in the suburbs. Like the story the other poster told, we live in an affluent area of New Jersey, but it does ease my fears is that we've been welcomed here and it's a pretty liberal area. However, there is no diversity here and as biracial person raised in completely Caucasian surrounds, I personally don't want that for my kids. I think that's one of the reasons why Nate would prefer to send them to private schools. There aren't many things I struggle with in regards to being a gay parent, but that's one. And I don't have a definitive answer because I just honestly don't know which is the best way to go.
And, yes there are a lot of legal hoops that we have to jump through, but we've found that the agencies, social workers, and attorney's are there to guide couples wanting to adopt all the way. Having a great lawyer really makes the process better I think.
I'm really happy that, for the most part, everyone here is receptive to gays being parents. I know in my own family, they flat out don't like it, and I will never forget one of my former coworkers in Philadelphia. She had a lot of gay friends and was sometimes too open in regards to her sex life, but she shocked me one day when she said she didn't think gay people should adopt kids. She said that kids should have a mom and a dad, and went on about how that was best. But she didn't stop to think that she, a mother of four, was divorced and bad mouthed her ex-husband all the time.
On the subject of adoption. Nate and I decided we wanted to adopt when the time comes to expand our family and the process was kind of eye opening. With surrogacy, we didn't have to do a lot of the things required of us to get certified to adopt, but they both share a certain stress factor. It's one of those things only the most commited of couples, gay or straight, would do.
More than likely, we're going to adopt an African American child, and I was kind of surprised at how direct the questions were in regards to that. But I think they only ask those questions if you indicate you would like to adopt a child of color.
I don't remember who mentioned it, but I do worry about sending my kids to school in the suburbs. Like the story the other poster told, we live in an affluent area of New Jersey, but it does ease my fears is that we've been welcomed here and it's a pretty liberal area. However, there is no diversity here and as biracial person raised in completely Caucasian surrounds, I personally don't want that for my kids. I think that's one of the reasons why Nate would prefer to send them to private schools. There aren't many things I struggle with in regards to being a gay parent, but that's one. And I don't have a definitive answer because I just honestly don't know which is the best way to go.
And, yes there are a lot of legal hoops that we have to jump through, but we've found that the agencies, social workers, and attorney's are there to guide couples wanting to adopt all the way. Having a great lawyer really makes the process better I think.
I'm really happy that, for the most part, everyone here is receptive to gays being parents. I know in my own family, they flat out don't like it, and I will never forget one of my former coworkers in Philadelphia. She had a lot of gay friends and was sometimes too open in regards to her sex life, but she shocked me one day when she said she didn't think gay people should adopt kids. She said that kids should have a mom and a dad, and went on about how that was best. But she didn't stop to think that she, a mother of four, was divorced and bad mouthed her ex-husband all the time.
Imdanny
Ideal_Rock
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2008
- Messages
- 6,186
Date: 6/29/2010 9:38:23 PM
Author: Steal
Date: 6/29/2010 9:31:21 PM
Author: Imdanny
Well, you're the who said, 'If that is the natural order who are we to place that INNOCENT in less than predetermined ideal.'
Three people (at last count) are trying to tell you that saying that same-sex couples are a THREAT to the INNOCENCE of children is anti-gay bigotry.
What? You want people to lie to you?
You can pretend to misinterpret what I am saying all night long if you like. So, do you?
If you believe that my comment and yours are identical in content and or meaning then you might as well bow out. You are suffering in your comprehension.
Actually, I comprehend perfectly. Thing2of2 was right. You are a bigot.
Steel
Ideal_Rock
- Joined
- Jul 8, 2006
- Messages
- 4,884
Bigot is sooooo last page.Date: 6/29/2010 9:41:00 PM
Author: Imdanny
Date: 6/29/2010 9:38:23 PM
Author: Steal
Date: 6/29/2010 9:31:21 PM
Author: Imdanny
Well, you''re the who said, ''If that is the natural order who are we to place that INNOCENT in less than predetermined ideal.''
Three people (at last count) are trying to tell you that saying that same-sex couples are a THREAT to the INNOCENCE of children is anti-gay bigotry.
What? You want people to lie to you?
You can pretend to misinterpret what I am saying all night long if you like. So, do you?
If you believe that my comment and yours are identical in content and or meaning then you might as well bow out. You are suffering in your comprehension.
Actually, I comprehend perfectly. Thing2of2 was right. You are a bigot.
Porridge
Ideal_Rock
- Joined
- Oct 27, 2008
- Messages
- 3,267
brazen_irish_hussy
Ideal_Rock
- Joined
- Jun 13, 2006
- Messages
- 2,044
What about my story? You are saying my friend would be better off as a starving, diseased whore in India with her sraight bio parents than a healthy, happy grad student in the US? She is working on mental disorders like Alzhiemer's. If she finds a cure and improves millions of lives because of her gay parents it is wrong?
Steal, you were the one who posted the story of the 11 year old who was raped by her brother and her mother kicked her out sincew her brother did it. Wouldn't a loving gay couple been better in that case?
I am honestly curious, how is different from interracial marriage? It is not natural, people have always been with their own kind, they cannot produce viable offspring, the bible says it is wrong, where is the difference?
Imdanny
Ideal_Rock
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2008
- Messages
- 6,186
Date: 6/29/2010 9:44:44 PM
Author: Steal
Date: 6/29/2010 9:41:00 PM
Author: Imdanny
Date: 6/29/2010 9:38:23 PM
Author: Steal
Date: 6/29/2010 9:31:21 PM
Author: Imdanny
Well, you''re the who said, ''If that is the natural order who are we to place that INNOCENT in less than predetermined ideal.''
Three people (at last count) are trying to tell you that saying that same-sex couples are a THREAT to the INNOCENCE of children is anti-gay bigotry.
What? You want people to lie to you?
You can pretend to misinterpret what I am saying all night long if you like. So, do you?
If you believe that my comment and yours are identical in content and or meaning then you might as well bow out. You are suffering in your comprehension.
Actually, I comprehend perfectly. Thing2of2 was right. You are a bigot.
Bigot is sooooo last page.
Apparently not.
Clairitek
Ideal_Rock
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2008
- Messages
- 4,881
Steel
Ideal_Rock
- Joined
- Jul 8, 2006
- Messages
- 4,884
For those that invite me to dance, I posted this earlier:
Now I must be asleep. Please excuse me it is very late here. (Night Porridge)
Don't worry, I will read all of your comments tomorrow. So feel free to misinterpret me amongst yourselves. If you have any questions on how I feel just ask Thing or ImDanny etc. They got me pegged. Or so they have decided.
I have been clear.
Now I must be asleep. Please excuse me it is very late here. (Night Porridge)
Don't worry, I will read all of your comments tomorrow. So feel free to misinterpret me amongst yourselves. If you have any questions on how I feel just ask Thing or ImDanny etc. They got me pegged. Or so they have decided.
RaiKai
Brilliant_Rock
- Joined
- Mar 8, 2010
- Messages
- 1,255
One of my coworkers is legal counsel for CFS.
Every single day she opens file after file on families where children are being horribly abused by biological parents.
Neglect, mutilation from cigarettes, children left alone for days, newborns with broken arms and legs, babies and children who have sexual abuse trauma, toddlers with brain damage from being beaten and starved. In many cases, CFS has had to remove one child after another, knowing another is on the way, from the same biological parents.
But, yes, going to loving gay parents is far less than ideal as clearly one vagina plus one penis is *ideal*.
Give me a freaking break.
Every single day she opens file after file on families where children are being horribly abused by biological parents.
Neglect, mutilation from cigarettes, children left alone for days, newborns with broken arms and legs, babies and children who have sexual abuse trauma, toddlers with brain damage from being beaten and starved. In many cases, CFS has had to remove one child after another, knowing another is on the way, from the same biological parents.
But, yes, going to loving gay parents is far less than ideal as clearly one vagina plus one penis is *ideal*.
Give me a freaking break.
somethingshiny
Ideal_Rock
- Joined
- Jul 22, 2007
- Messages
- 6,746
Steal~ While I do not agree with your opinion, I respect you for having one that has obviously been thought out. I can accept others opinions if they have reasoning behind them and you do whether the majority agrees with it or not. Also, while I don''t think you should be attacked for your thoughts, I do think that your opposing views have brought up additional comments that would not have been posted otherwise.
pennquaker09
Brilliant_Rock
- Joined
- Nov 2, 2007
- Messages
- 1,943
For what it''s worth, and to maybe calm this thread down a little bit because I would personally like for it to remain open, but I, as a gay parent, understand what Steal is trying to say. And it doesn''t offend me that she feels this way. What are we without our morals? She has beliefs that are near and dear to her, and I would never ask her to change those.
However, Steal, when you mention biology, I kind of want to understand what you''re saying fully. Because like I said earlier, that assumes that everyone is heterosexual, has the desire to get married, inferitility didn''t exist . . . essentially it would be a Stepford like world. Would it not?
However, Steal, when you mention biology, I kind of want to understand what you''re saying fully. Because like I said earlier, that assumes that everyone is heterosexual, has the desire to get married, inferitility didn''t exist . . . essentially it would be a Stepford like world. Would it not?
MarquiseGirl
Rough_Rock
- Joined
- May 13, 2010
- Messages
- 58
As far as the whole "natural" thing is concerned, Adam and Eve had children the old fashioned way. Without the egg+sperm we, as a human race, would no longer exist. It is a fact that without those two elements we would become extinct. That is natural. "2 of a kind" simply cannot do this, naturally.
packrat
Super_Ideal_Rock
- Joined
- Dec 12, 2008
- Messages
- 10,614
- Joined
- Apr 30, 2005
- Messages
- 34,343
This thread is just a small, mild and comparative civil example of exactly why I'd never put a child in the front lines of this fight.
Yes the fight for equality is important.
Yes someone has to do it if we are ever going to equality.
It just ain't gonna be MY child.
As a gay man I just could not personally send my own adopted child out to school to face kids and adults who feel our family is unnatural and some kind of sin.
It's fine if I want choose to work for a good cause, but to place my child in the middle of all this borders on child abuse IMHO.
Sorry, I'd just care more about my kid than the cause.
Yes the fight for equality is important.
Yes someone has to do it if we are ever going to equality.
It just ain't gonna be MY child.
As a gay man I just could not personally send my own adopted child out to school to face kids and adults who feel our family is unnatural and some kind of sin.
It's fine if I want choose to work for a good cause, but to place my child in the middle of all this borders on child abuse IMHO.
Sorry, I'd just care more about my kid than the cause.
- Joined
- Apr 30, 2005
- Messages
- 34,343
By citing Adam and Eve you write as if everyone believed in your religion.
That is a very problematic thing to base a rational argument on.
Your argument seems to be, only what is natural is okay.
So in-vitro fertilization is wrong too?
Is treating cancer wrong too since that is not natural?
Cars are not natural so I assume you walk everywhere.
I assume you and your family remain naked all the time since clothes are not natural either . . .
Or perhaps you are okay with all these unnatural things and only pull out the natural card when talking about families that are not like yours.
E B
Ideal_Rock
- Joined
- Aug 31, 2005
- Messages
- 9,491
Again, I see what you're saying, but I don't see how it has anything to do with the subject at hand. Whether or not two people can create a child has nothing to do with their ability to parent one. There are [/i]plenty[/i] of deadbeat heterosexual couples able to create a child who fail at raising them.
Labeling an entire group of people unfit to raise a child because of their sexual organs makes absolutely no sense to me, but it's deeper than that, obviously. We're willing to be "un-PC" to a certain point, but why won't you (the collective) say, "I disagree with a homosexual's lifestyle, and wouldn't want a child brought up in it," or "I believe it's possible that two gay parents will turn a child gay." While I personally find both of these statements ridiculous and untrue, they'd make more sense as arguments than "They have two penises and can't make a child. Therefore, they shouldn't raise children." If that's your argument, then anyone who can't make a child shouldn't raise one, infertile couples included. Do you agree with that statement?
somethingshiny
Ideal_Rock
- Joined
- Jul 22, 2007
- Messages
- 6,746
Kenny~ I''d never thought of "putting a child on the front lines." but it has brought out some thoughts for me. ALL parents have to make the decision on who/what they allow their children to be exposed to. Private school, gay communities have both been mentioned to shelter the child a bit. More and more religious people are taking to homeschooling their children to avoid the outside influence as well. I completely understand your own desire to not have kids, but I don''t think gay people are being handed anything that other parents aren''t dealing with in some way. Granted, the gay topic is more of a hot button issue, but any child who isn''t from an ideal family is sitting awful close to the front lines too.
pennquaker09
Brilliant_Rock
- Joined
- Nov 2, 2007
- Messages
- 1,943
MarquiseGirl
Rough_Rock
- Joined
- May 13, 2010
- Messages
- 58
- Status
Past, Present, Future: The Meaning of Three-Stone Engagement Rings
Past, Present, Future: The Meaning of Three-Stone Engagement Rings - 04/14
300x240.png)