adoption by gay couples?

[kenny]

FWIW we are in a part of Los Angeles with a huge gay population.
You'd think that would make us more accepted, but we are still getting bashed and gunned down.

Higher numbers of gays can make haters hate even more not less.
It is "in their face" more (as they put it).

 

[kenny]

FWIW we are in a part of Los Angeles with a very high number of gays.

Also, I''d vote for legislation allowing gays to adopt.
If I had a gay friend who wants to adopt I''d keep my mouth shut.

 

[Jennifer W]

Interesting topic. My daughter will go to school in our tiny little village with three other children who have same sex parents. I never really gave it a second thought, I''ve known them from our weekly baby clinic days. There''s one set of twins in there, so only two couples and in at least one of the families, one parent is a biological parent, not sure about the other. I''ve never heard anything negative said in the village, or seen a raised eyebrow (and it''s a small enough place that you know what people are thinking, never mind saying) but I didn''t think about how the kids would get on at school.

Honestly, from working in Child Protection, I have seen kids to whom the benefit of parents who took care of them and loved them would outweigh the disadvantages of any amount of teasing or even bullying. Safe, protected from sexual harm and with their basic needs met would be a huge improvement. If the people who provided that were a same sex couple, fine by me. I think it''s worth considering that not many adoptions (at least in the UK) are of babies - many are older children with often complex needs and they can be very hard to place in a family (either fostered or adopted). Adoptive parents who will love an older child with a traumatic past, a disability or a long term illness are in short supply - their sexual orientation would be the least of our worries. Anyway, in Scotland, it would be unlawful to discriminate against potential adoptive parents on the grounds of sexuality and both same-sex parents can adopt, rather than only one having parental rights.

Jen

 

[yssie]

My ex-bf was raised by his biological mum and her partner.

They were lovely women and wonderful parents, and though it didn't work out between us he was a healthy, well-adjusted young man.



Adoption shouldn't be dependent on race, gender, faith, or sexual orientation, there are so many more meaningful qualities to assess!

 

[Amber St. Clare]

I''m on the side of children getting all the love they need--be it from gay OR straight couples. {But I don''t have any gay friends}

 

[lulu]

Date: 6/28/2010 3:50:14 PM
Author: Hudson_Hawk
I understand what your saying Kenny. I''m just saying that not all of ''society'' is the same throughout the country. Unfortunately we have different tolerance levels in different regions and somethings are more widely accepted. I went to elementary school and HS with kids from same sex couples and they were all well adjusted and reasonably happy individuals (using the term reasonably to accentuate the fact that NO ONE has a perfect childhood and very few escape their school years unscathed emotionally). I don''t think they were picked on any more than I was. Similarly, my stepfather''s nephew has two moms and is a totally normal, well adjusted kid. I don''t think this should prevent a couple from adopting a child and giving the child the best life they can.

ETA: And I truly believe that at a certain point in your life you have to learn to be responsible for your own happiness. Your parents can set you up for success in this area by providing a loving and stable home for you, but you as an individual have to develop the skills to be an emotionally and physically healthy person. A lot of times, the people who face the most adversity are the ones who come out the strongest. So again, I don''t see being raised by a same sex couple to be a detriment to a child.

oh man! If I had two moms I would have had to kill myself.

 

[megumic]

Date: 6/28/2010 2:27:38 PM
Author: kenny
I see three issues:

1. The parents rights and experience

2. The kids rights and experience

3. Society today being how it IS vs. how is SHOULD be


Gays adopting kids may be groovy for the parents but not for the kids.

I''m not saying gays cannot be good parents.

In fact, the gays that DO eventually qualify to adopt kids may self-select to actually be SUPER excellent parents because of all the opposition and scrutiny they must endure.

Most of all they have to really want the kids.


I''m just saying society is not ready yet.

There is still too much hate against gays for kids to not feel some negative effect of it - even if they live in the gay Castro district of San Francisco.


I think it will be a few hundred years before the stigma of being gay completely goes away.

Slavery was outlawed 148 years ago and blacks and whites are still not equal.

Stigma sticks.


Again the problem is society not the parents.

Also, FWIW and for those readers who didn''t recall, I''m gay.

That does not give my opinion any more weight on this topic, it may be relevant so I mention it.


I realize progress depends on trailblazers, and my hat is off to the gay parents who are leading the way today.

It is just that a little baby has no say about being put in the front lines of this battle.

If we don''t start somewhere and start families with same-sex partners now, how will we ever really be **ready**??

 

[TooPatient]

I agree with Kenny on most points in this thread.

Depending on the area and individual circumstances, it may or may not be a good idea.

In general, I''d say it is a BAD idea (at least currently and arguably forever). My aunt and her partner raised my aunt''s adopted son together. He had some challenges growing up because he really needed to have a male figure in his life and that was missing (teachers, grandfathers, friends are NOT the same as parents).

 

[RaiKai]

On the male/female role model thing...plenty of kids do not have positive parental role models of one or both sexes. Divorced parents, absentee parents, dead parents, alcoholic parents, etc all exist for straight couples too.

My own bio father was absent most of my life and hardly a positive role model. I love him, but, not exactly someone I would advocate emulating. My stepfather, grandfather, etc was not *the same* but that in itself is not a bad thing. I surely am fortunate for the experiences, and positive adult influences I *did* have and there comes a point one needs to get over all the childhood blaming and move forward.

I do not know many families that fit into the nuclear model, to be honest.

Kids will get teased. My future kids will likely be teased for being red-headed nerds with a lisp.I have friends who have gay parents and they were teased for inane things, but for not their parents! And yes, they are very happy people!

I think it is idealistic to think anyone can have the *perfect life* or be sheltered from bumps and bruises by avoiding what may raise the hackles of others. Life is unpredictable. Should I not have a child as they may get teased for a lisp? Or because they may be gay? Or because kids might mock them for having a mum who works and a stay at home dad? Or if I and DH died and our children were raised by my gay brother and his partner?

Loving parents are loving parents whatever their sex or sexual orientation, and that can have a major effect on how a child learns and grows from their life experiences.

 

[Hudson_Hawk]

Date: 6/28/2010 5:37:19 PM
Author: lulu

Date: 6/28/2010 3:50:14 PM

Author: Hudson_Hawk

I understand what your saying Kenny. I''m just saying that not all of ''society'' is the same throughout the country. Unfortunately we have different tolerance levels in different regions and somethings are more widely accepted. I went to elementary school and HS with kids from same sex couples and they were all well adjusted and reasonably happy individuals (using the term reasonably to accentuate the fact that NO ONE has a perfect childhood and very few escape their school years unscathed emotionally). I don''t think they were picked on any more than I was. Similarly, my stepfather''s nephew has two moms and is a totally normal, well adjusted kid. I don''t think this should prevent a couple from adopting a child and giving the child the best life they can.


ETA: And I truly believe that at a certain point in your life you have to learn to be responsible for your own happiness. Your parents can set you up for success in this area by providing a loving and stable home for you, but you as an individual have to develop the skills to be an emotionally and physically healthy person. A lot of times, the people who face the most adversity are the ones who come out the strongest. So again, I don''t see being raised by a same sex couple to be a detriment to a child.

oh man! If I had two moms I would have had to kill myself.

I''m totally missing the joke...

 

[sunnyd]

Date: 6/28/2010 6:39:43 PM
Author: TooPatient
I agree with Kenny on most points in this thread.


Depending on the area and individual circumstances, it may or may not be a good idea.


In general, I'd say it is a BAD idea (at least currently and arguably forever). My aunt and her partner raised my aunt's adopted son together. He had some challenges growing up because he really needed to have a male figure in his life and that was missing (teachers, grandfathers, friends are NOT the same as parents).

So you have one bad example of someone being raised by gay parents, therefore it's a BAD idea? I have a million bad examples of kids being raised by straight parents, so I think that THAT is a bad idea.

Anyway... my uncle and his partner of 25+ years do not have kids because of their careers (doctors) but I support them having the option. Kids need to be loved, regardless of whether they have 2 moms/dads, 1 mom/dad or no moms/dads.

 

[somethingshiny]

I don''t really know any gay couples.

My only experience with this topic was when JT had his tonsils out 2 yrs ago. We were at a Children''s Hospital and of course I was trying not to cry as I handed over my 2 yr old to the nurses. I KNEW I was going to see him in 30 minutes. I KNEW I was going to be in the recovery room the entire time. I KNEW I could go to him whenever I wanted.

At the same time, there was a same-sex couple with their little one who was undergoing some operation. He had a "Mama" and a "Mommy." Only "Mama" was allowed to give him to the nurse, go to recovery and/or see him at will. "Mommy" had to stay behind. I can''t imagine being in "Mommy''s" shoes. She didn''t even have the legal right to see her baby immediately after surgery!

What else will this woman miss out on because she''s half of a same-sex couple raising a child? Like I said, this is my only experience with the topic at hand, but this alone is enough for me to wonder why the hell gay adoption isn''t legalized in every state.

 

[Haven]

Date: 6/28/2010 8:08:37 PM
Author: somethingshiny
I don't really know any gay couples.

My only experience with this topic was when JT had his tonsils out 2 yrs ago. We were at a Children's Hospital and of course I was trying not to cry as I handed over my 2 yr old to the nurses. I KNEW I was going to see him in 30 minutes. I KNEW I was going to be in the recovery room the entire time. I KNEW I could go to him whenever I wanted.

At the same time, there was a same-sex couple with their little one who was undergoing some operation. He had a 'Mama' and a 'Mommy.' Only 'Mama' was allowed to give him to the nurse, go to recovery and/or see him at will. 'Mommy' had to stay behind. I can't imagine being in 'Mommy's' shoes. She didn't even have the legal right to see her baby immediately after surgery!

What else will this woman miss out on because she's half of a same-sex couple raising a child? Like I said, this is my only experience with the topic at hand, but this alone is enough for me to wonder why the hell gay adoption isn't legalized in every state.

Can I get an AMEN?!

What a heart wrenching scene.

 

[Hudson_Hawk]

Date: 6/28/2010 8:25:04 PM
Author: Haven

Date: 6/28/2010 8:08:37 PM

Author: somethingshiny

I don''t really know any gay couples.


My only experience with this topic was when JT had his tonsils out 2 yrs ago. We were at a Children''s Hospital and of course I was trying not to cry as I handed over my 2 yr old to the nurses. I KNEW I was going to see him in 30 minutes. I KNEW I was going to be in the recovery room the entire time. I KNEW I could go to him whenever I wanted.


At the same time, there was a same-sex couple with their little one who was undergoing some operation. He had a ''Mama'' and a ''Mommy.'' Only ''Mama'' was allowed to give him to the nurse, go to recovery and/or see him at will. ''Mommy'' had to stay behind. I can''t imagine being in ''Mommy''s'' shoes. She didn''t even have the legal right to see her baby immediately after surgery!


What else will this woman miss out on because she''s half of a same-sex couple raising a child? Like I said, this is my only experience with the topic at hand, but this alone is enough for me to wonder why the hell gay adoption isn''t legalized in every state.

Can I get an AMEN?!


What a heart wrenching scene.

I don''t say it often, but you''re great Haven!

 

[Clairitek]

Date: 6/28/2010 8:04:02 PM
Author: sunnyd

Date: 6/28/2010 6:39:43 PM
Author: TooPatient
I agree with Kenny on most points in this thread.


Depending on the area and individual circumstances, it may or may not be a good idea.


In general, I''d say it is a BAD idea (at least currently and arguably forever). My aunt and her partner raised my aunt''s adopted son together. He had some challenges growing up because he really needed to have a male figure in his life and that was missing (teachers, grandfathers, friends are NOT the same as parents).

So you have one bad example of someone being raised by gay parents, therefore it''s a BAD idea? I have a million bad examples of kids being raised by straight parents, so I think that THAT is a bad idea.

Anyway... my uncle and his partner of 25+ years do not have kids because of their careers (doctors) but I support them having the option. Kids need to be loved, regardless of whether they have 2 moms/dads, 1 mom/dad or no moms/dads.

+1

 

[Haven]

Thanks, HH.

 

[kenny]

Don''t kids benefit from one male and one female parental role model?

 

[gardengloves]

Date: 6/28/2010 8:59:03 PM
Author: kenny
Don''t kids benefit from one male and one female parental role model?

Kids benefit from love, people who want to love, children who need that love, that''s all its about

 

[missy]

Date: 6/28/2010 8:59:03 PM
Author: kenny
Don't kids benefit from one male and one female parental role model?

Yes, but does that male or female role model have to be one of their parents?
I totally understand your points and agree that optimal conditions are best. But realistically what is optimal anyway? And does anyone really have optimal conditions all the time?

IMO A loving home with 2 loving parents is optimal whether the parents are same sex or opposite sex. If both parents love and respect each other and unconditionally love their child etc etc isn't that optimal?

And as another poster pointed out change will only become accepted as one of the norms if someone takes those first steps to make it so. It's a win win IMO for these children to get 2 loving parents vs being transferred from foster home to foster home or being with 2 parents of the opposite sex who are in an unhealthy relationship. Of course there is no guarantee that same sex couples will be that warm and loving home you hope they will be for a child but there is no guarantee for any child in any type of home. The best you can do is screen screen screen and then screen some more. That's why adoption processes can take so long as you hope they do a good job at screening out potential problem parents.

Personally, I think just because people want children and are able to have them the old fashioned way does not mean they will make good parents. I wish there was some sort of screening process people had to go through before they could procreate.

Anyway, I say the more options in the adoption pool the better for the children. Widen the pool and increase the odds of getting great parents for children who need them.

 

[MichelleCarmen]

I don't think having gay couples adopt is a problem. I do think that parents should consider *regardless* of sexual preference where they are living. If the option to choose a more gay-friendly neighborhood is afforded, then it would make sense for the couple to look for housing in that region because they would want their child(ren) to see them (the parents) being respected by others.

 

[kenny]

Date: 6/28/2010 9:12:05 PM
Author: missy

Personally, I think just because people want children and are able to have them the old fashioned way does not mean they will make good parents.
I wish there was some sort of screening process people had to go through before they could procreate.

EXCELLENT point!!!!!!
I totally agree.

Having complementary equipment doesn''t not qualify a couple for being a good parents.
Why should adopters be scrutinized more than bio parents?

 

[brazen_irish_hussy]

I knew a girl who had 2 mothers. In middle school, I was a white girl with parents in a healthy marriage who came from a fairly wealthy family. She was very dark and the adopted daughter of 2 mothers. By all accounts, I should have been popular and she should have been shunned, but I was teased about everything and she was one of the most popular girls in school and moms. It does not always translate the way people think it will.

There is more to her story though. At the time she was adopted, her mothers could not adopt a child in the US, so they went to India. They fell in love with a girl from the untouchable cast and brought her home. She was far more loved and cared for than many of the children of rich, hetero parents I grew up with. She is beautiful, happy and is getting her advanced degree in neuroscience. If she did not have 2 moms, she would be living in a slum, diseased and as a pretty untouchable, mistress to to a man in a higher caste. So tell me, which life would you rather have, even if you were teased throughout school?

As for needing a role model of each sex, I have known plenty of kids from one parent households of both sexes who came out just fine and just as many from two parent households that are royally screwed up. If you asked me to look at a class of kids and judge who will come out will, I wouldn''t need to know about money, race, mariatal staus, etc. All I would need to know is the amount of care and attention their parent/grandparent/gardian gave them and I could make a fairly accurate assessment.

 

[gardengloves]

Look, I was adopted, my parents went through screening, were they the perfect middle class couple in the perfect neighborhood? On paper I'm sure they got A+, but does that tell the true story? well, my dad was an A+ for sure

What agency can quantify the hearts ability to give unconditional love.. love selflessly., make all the sacrifices to raise a child.. to truly open and give what a child needs. I don't think its black and white, or gay and straight, male or female---- if people want to make a loving home to receive a child, have the love in their hearts to understands the demands and sacrifices... well, that's the home that child can best be nurtured in and needs

BTW- born Irish, adopted into another cultural and religious heritage... it does leave a burning longing for things Irish.

 

[RaiKai]

Date: 6/28/2010 8:59:03 PM
Author: kenny
Don''t kids benefit from one male and one female parental role model?

I believe children benefit from many positive role models, and they do not necessarily have to be parents (and cannot always be parents).

Again, many children, even those from straight parents, do not have *positive role models* in their own parent(s) of either or both sexes or even have both parents around.

Children benefit from a loving parent, loving parents, loving families, loving communities, and so forth.

 

[yssie]

Date: 6/28/2010 10:36:18 PM
Author: RaiKai

Date: 6/28/2010 8:59:03 PM
Author: kenny
Don''t kids benefit from one male and one female parental role model?

I believe children benefit from many positive role models, and they do not necessarily have to be parents (and cannot always be parents).

Again, many children, even those from straight parents, do not have *positive role models* in their own parent(s) of either or both sexes or even have both parents around.

Children benefit from a loving parent, loving parents, loving families, loving communities, and so forth.

Ditto - I think kids definitely benefit from a male and a female who play parental roles, but they don''t need to actually be parents, biologically or otherwise. And if a kid has two dads and one "mum" figure, or two mums and one "dad" figure who love and treasure him/her, even better..

 

[Arkteia]

Date: 6/28/2010 4:41:20 PM
Author: kenny
FWIW we are in a part of Los Angeles with a huge gay population.
You''d think that would make us more accepted, but we are still getting bashed and gunned down.

Higher numbers of gays can make haters hate even more not less.
It is ''in their face'' more (as they put it).

Kenny, I do not know how old you are, but I always feel that when we make assumptions about someone''s views, we subconsciously assume they are approximateof the same age as we are.

But I communicate a lot with my 20-year old and see how things are for him.
Even at school, at 14, he said, "well, if people are gay, they are gay, I do not mind it".

Then later I found him a gay psychotherapist (not intentionally - this therapist was great at working with teenagers, was also a drug counselor so I thought that at my son''s age, given the way they experiment with drugs...it would help to have someone really good to talk to).

The therapist is very obviously gay, but when my son returned back, he never said, "mom, who did you bring me to?" They worked very well for almost three years, spoke about my son''s very straight issues, my son knew that the therapist had a stable partner of 10 years...

Their generation is totally different, Kenny. My son is obviously heterosexual, but is very accepting of gays.

They are different in other ways, too. You should have seen the rallies when Obama (then presidential candidate) spoke at University of Washington! Things that were at least discussed among people of my generation did not matter to them.

Of course, again, I am speaking from the standpoint of a mother of a very liberal kid, who grew up in Massachusetts and then Seattle, two very liberal cities, and goes to the best University in our state. When we made a trip to Vachon Island (before the elections) the signs looked totally different than what we use to see here. But the area where I live is so more densely populated, I am positive that we prevail.

 

[RaiKai]

Crasru, I agree with your observations via your son.

I am 30 and even when I was in high school several of my classmates were open about being gay and no one really batted an eye. When my brother came out in high school a couple guys tried to make some insecure comments towards him..brother just told them not to worry, they were not his type. He got more grief for it BEFORE he came out than he ever did once he did, oddly enough. As I said earlier, I also know a couple people raised by gay parents and really got no grief about it. Amongst my peers growing up...honestly....being gay was sort of considered "no big deal". I even swear that for a while being gay was "the new straight" as my peers considered their sexuality as their hormones ran rampant. Certainly the feelings were not a new thing, but the openness about them was far more present than it had been 10 or 20 years prior.

So much of the fear comes from those who either fear ANY thing different or any change. Or just have limited exposure. While I was a young child my stepfather was a bit homophobic, not openly but he was clearly uncomfortable about homosexuality. He grew up in a conservative "old country" family and did not really know anyone who was openly gay. Then he took up ballroom dancing with my mother, had a gay instructor and met several other gay men. Now he has several gay friends and has no problem dancing with them if one asks, ha! A total shift due to exposure, awareness and personal knowledge.

My brothers fiance is in the Canadian military - in a very "macho" and rigorous trade, and is openly gay. He and my brother live in military housing, and are treated as any straight couple would be by their peers and the military and their community. They are accepted as a couple absolutely by their military peers (socially, etc). They go out and travel with the straight couples and so on. My DH was in the military - again in a "macho" trade for years and also worked with and socialized with openly gay men and women. Their peers could care less. As long as people did their job, and were good people to hang out with, it really did not matter to them. I live in a fairly small city now, with a lot of conservative influences, but the lead sheriff and the lead defense attorney, both women, have been in a relationship for decades and are very open about it. I grew up in a major city where one of the first openly gay mayors was elected many years ago now and campaigned with his male partner at his side. I have been friends with and worked with several gay people over the years, and their sexual orientation really is not something I think about unless I have to sit down and think about it but it is not something I or most of my peers really tend to give much thought to. Honestly, if I see two men or two women with a child in tow....I would not think anything of it.

I DO firmly believe that attitudes are different in general amongst the younger generations (and I include myself in that generation). Maybe not *everywhere* or for *everyone*, and I do not doubt others personal observations of biased attitudes, but there is a lot more awareness and openness. In addition to legal changes, there are many social changes. Does this mean that no one has biases? No. But there are people out there who still believe in segregation, believe that women should be pregnant and barefoot or so on. Just as there are those still opposed to gay marriage or gay parents adopting for example. If we all refused change based on the views of these people, gosh, well that would suck! It is an absolute tragedy that this awareness and acceptance is not there from the start (and people like Matthew Shepherd are killed in the meantime and as a result) but for me it is better to move forward to acceptance than stay with the status quo. I am grateful there ARE trailblazers out there!

Personally, I will be delighted to see my brother and his fiance adopt as they will be great parents, period.

 

[iheartscience]

Date: 6/28/2010 8:59:03 PM
Author: kenny
Don't kids benefit from one male and one female parental role model?

Many kids with straight parents don't have this, either. My parents have been married for almost 42 years and I'm the definite oddity among my friends. Almost everyone I know has divorced parents and most were raised primarily by their mothers. They all turned out just fine. It's interesting to see such a conservative argument coming from you.

 

[packrat]

Date: 6/28/2010 9:20:55 PM
Author: kenny

Date: 6/28/2010 9:12:05 PM

Author: missy


Personally, I think just because people want children and are able to have them the old fashioned way does not mean they will make good parents.

I wish there was some sort of screening process people had to go through before they could procreate.

EXCELLENT point!!!!!!

I totally agree.


Having complementary equipment doesn''t not qualify a couple for being a good parents.

Why should adopters be scrutinized more than bio parents?

I''ve never understood it either. There are plenty of hetero couples and single people who clearly should NOT be parents and nobody bats an eye b/c it''s their "right", but yet if you are in a same sex relationship, you are automatically deemed unfit to care for a child? I''m betting a lot of kids growing up in the welfare system and in foster care/orphanages would rather have Daddy1 and Daddy2 or Mommy1 and Mommy2 that will love and nurture and care for them, than just be a number in the system.

 

[Steel]

I believe that it is natural for children to be raised by a mother & father; ideally their own.

There are exceptions; death, divorce, incapacity etc.

I would not support gay adoption.