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Accidentally found The Ring at Lang

DecoDaze

DecoDaze

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Oct 13, 2010
Messages
205
I visited Lang recently as part of my reconnaissance for my belated 10th anniversary e-ring upgrade, for which I wanted something with a vintage-y feel and was planning to put the pieces together myself. But I absolutely fell in love with a ring there. Now I have a limited amount of time to make a decision--it is at the top of my budget, but doable--and I'm trying to figure out how I evaluate whether or not it's a reasonable purchase, a good quality ring at a market price. The center stone is not certified. It was graded by the Lang staff as an OEC 1.15 J VS1. Faces up just shy of 7mm round. It has a medium size table, a small culet, and wide, though not the "widest," pavilion mains (the mains' width points to it being a middle period OEC, apparently). As far as they can tell, it has never been removed from its original setting, which is a 20s/30s deco piece in platinum with 3 baguettes and 10 single cut sides. It is priced at $8750. Did I mention I love it? Any advice about how to proceed so that I can be sure I'm getting a great ring with the right side of my brain, and not just the left? I don't particularly want to mess with the setting by having the diamond taken out and graded. I've read the threads about Lang being reputable, if a bit pricey. Here are a couple of (iPhone, sorry) hand shots. Thanks for any help!

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And vendor photos.

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Doesn't really look that attractive from these pictures, but that could just be the photography.

The 1.15 is an estimated weight, but it looks quite flat (no depth) in the last two pictures.
 
It's an old cut. And if you love it and it speaks to you... it's hard to say what you should do. I'm more in the 'live and let live' camp when it comes to old cuts when seen in person. If it speaks to you and you love it as long as you KNOW what you are getting and what it's issues are-- only you can decide if it's worth it.

I would go back to them and ask them if they will negotiate the price. Tell them that the stone is very shallow and that the performance is limited by that (which it probably is) and the flat crown. See if you can get 500 off or so, then see how feel about it. (Don't start at 500, if your goal is to get 500 off start at 700 or 650).
 
Thanks for your responses. One question: on what are you basing your conclusions about the shallowness of the stone? What can you see in those last photos that I'm not seeing? This is exactly the sort of area I need help with, thanks.
 
you can see the crown is very 'flat' in those last pics, whereas traditional OEC"s are more domed crowns. It looks like a larger table, see the giant reflection of the table? you can see it in your second pic too where your hand is against the fabric. it is an old cut but it's going to be a very very late transitional borderline RB, see those arrows and the almost complete lack of a visible culet?

bottom line is if this is what you are looking for and your eyes love it, well that's really all that matters. i wouldn't term it an OEC though, however many companies seem to loosely use that term to encompass anything that isn't definitively a RB or a cushion or emerald etc etc.

in terms of how I would negotiate...I would ask them what their absolute best price is on the ring. Being in person will help most likely. See what they come back to you with, they may surprise you. If it's not what you want, then I would think about how to negotiate it down further...aka note that it doesn't have any paper grading, that the stone is estimated being that it's never been removed from the setting, that it looks like a later transitional borderline RB, flat crown, not traditional OEC styling etc. is it platinum or WG, i think i missed that in your post.

i would probably not pay more than 7k for that ring, if even that, but Langs does carry a retail markup and if you love the entire piece then it's probably 'cheaper' than sourcing a 1.15c OEC yourself and building a ring like that (custom could be expensive) so if you could get if for 7k, i think that'd be great. that said, if your budget is 8500 and you LOVE the ring, to where you would be disappointed and think about if for years if it got away from you, then you may be happy with 8000 and that's ok too. :naughty:
 
hfg_76.jpg

That's what a traditional old cut crown looks like. See how yours is flat, in comparison.

I agree with Mara's post. Especially her tips on negotiating: " note that it doesn't have any paper grading, that the stone is estimated being that it's never been removed from the setting, that it looks like a later transitional borderline RB, flat crown, not traditional OEC styling etc. is it platinum or WG, i think i missed that in your post."
 
here's a comparison of two higher crowned OEC stones. you can see how it domes up to the smaller table whereas your stone is flattish up top. not a 'bad' thing, just different and will yield a different look.

owd_oecs-1-15.jpg
 
Worst case scenario, it is a poorly cut stone that weighs shy of a carat K VS2 (I see something like inclusions in that second picture.) I'm not saying this is what it is, but it is possible. How much would you be willing to pay then? I think Mara's advice is good, though my upper limit is somewhat lower than hers.
 
 
Thanks so much, everyone! I now see what you're referring to and I have a lot to think about. I also appreciate the links to other, similar pieces. One thing that surprises me is that Lang's description of the stone (at least as an OEC) seems to be inaccurate, but don't they have a good reputation for being honest and knowing what they're doing with old pieces? Not sure what to make of that.
 
I debated calling it a poorly cut transitional in my previous post, but too it out because #1 The pictures are not quite good enough to really tell, vs the experts at Lang. #2 It may come from a specific time period but is just so oddly cut that it is not a typical example of anything periodic.

The other thing is that it may indeed have medium width pavilion mains. On PS, we see pictures of more typical 50s table sizes and and crown angles in the mid to upper 30s, we know what a medium width mains look like there, but medium width mains on a 63 T and shallow crown, does not look the same.
 
I think it is an old cut but a later one. I would not call the pavilion mains medium, they look very long in those images, close to the 70s I bet! And the table looks in the 60s. It is shallow, you can tell by their estimate of 1.15ct for a 6.9mm stone. I own a 6.9mm stone with more traditional proportions and it is 1.4ct. None of these things are "bad" per se, just facts of the diamond. These "flat top trannies" can really perform, it depends on so many factors of the cut. I can't judge just from those images BUT I do not see hazy/murky vitual facets under the table (suggesting poorly aligned virtual facets), I don't see overdarkness. In the Lang head on shot I do see some evidence that the stone is leaking light under the table in that there is a slight ring of darker facets just inside the periphery of the table. That is a common "side effect" of a larger table and a lesser depth -- I bet the depth is sub-60s. Anyways, all told, it is one that needs to be seen to really judge, and the pics make it worth seeing to me. And you have done that!

Now the mount is gorgeous. I don't want to assume, but I suspect it was the setting that really wooed you? That is fine, but I would not buy a ring for high-end retail pricing based on a setting alone. Did the diamond speak to you as well? Lang's has 1000s of old cuts. I cannot think of a better place to taste test and learn your OWN preference for old cut style.

Do you want a true antique mount or is a repro ok? I used to be all about the repros but I have seen two PHENOMENAL true antiques and frankly, when they are in mint condition, then nothing modern can compare (except maybe Van Craenest and a couple other artisan jewelers).
 
I stumbled upon this ring during my ebay wanderings and was wondering what you and others think of it. I really like it, it speaks to me for some reason and has a similar feel to the one you're looking at. This seller keeps popping up during my searches, was wondering if anyone has had experience with him. The diamond has a 55% table, a little large for an old cut but looks like a nice stone from the pics? It had been a buy it now but was relisted as an auction.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SPECTACULAR-ART-DECO-PLATINUM-1-90CT-LARGE-RND-DIAMOND-DETAILED-ENGAGEMENT-RING-/160878955994?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2575220dda

I'm not recommending this ring per se - just wanted to throw it out there and see what everyone thinks!

The setting of the ring you have your eye on is definitely gorgeous! My first thought about the stone itself was the table looked large. Tough call - price seems high but on the other hand you've seen it in person and seem to love it.
 
junebug17|1347030360|3263713 said:
I stumbled upon this ring during my ebay wanderings and was wondering what you and others think of it. I really like it, it speaks to me for some reason and has a similar feel to the one you're looking at. This seller keeps popping up during my searches, was wondering if anyone has had experience with him. The diamond has a 55% table, a little large for an old cut but looks like a nice stone from the pics? It had been a buy it now but was relisted as an auction.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SPECTACULAR-ART-DECO-PLATINUM-1-90CT-LARGE-RND-DIAMOND-DETAILED-ENGAGEMENT-RING-/160878955994?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2575220dda

I'm not recommending this ring per se - just wanted to throw it out there and see what everyone thinks!

The setting of the ring you have your eye on is definitely gorgeous! My first thought about the stone itself was the table looked large. Tough call - price seems high but on the other hand you've seen it in person and seem to love it.
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Based only on those photos, which are not the best for showing the faceting, I quite like the diamond in your link June. You can see nice even patterning accross the face of the stone, small table, nice crown.

I think BrightIce bought from that seller and found the color grading WAY off. I would assume K-M color when considering it. I think that seller will also end auctions to BIN if you ask. I find his pricing a little on the higher end for ebay, but lower than B&M stores. I think he is an estate seller with a B&M store and an Ebay store.
 
some PS history:

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/european-cut-diamond.3875/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/european-cut-diamond.3875/[/URL]
[quoteThe machine which made it possible to brute a round diameter on a diamond was invented around 1900, so that can be used as a demarcation point in the dating of these old cut stones.

Old Mine Cut stones (cushion shaped) are typically circa 1840-1890.

Old European Cut stones (round, with small table, high crowns, and large to very large culets) are typically circa 1900-1920.

European Cuts (larger tables, lower crowns, medium to large culets) are typically circa 1920-1940.
Transitional Cuts (transitioning between the european cuts and the modern round brilliant cuts) are typically circa 1940-1950.
][/quote]
^ My bold.

If your stone is a European Cut, (versus an Old European Cut), it will have a larger table and smaller crown than an OEC, but probably still "smaller and higher" than a modern round brilliant.
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My experience is that European Cut is shallower, with a larger table, more toward the 60/60 proportions. but depth can go down into the high 50%s. My experience is very limited, though. :bigsmile:
 
Thanks very much for your input and the info Dreamer! Very helpful. I've been enamoured with antique halos lately - I think it would be very cool to have an original lol.
 
Thanks again, everyone. I feel a lot more informed now, both about what to look for, what to ask, and how to negotiate if I decide to go forward with this ring.

Nice finds, Circe & junebug! I agree about the antique halos, junebug. I didn't think it would matter to me whether it was a true antique or not--in fact, I was thinking it was most likely that I'd source an old stone from JbEG or OWD and have a repro made--but actually, after going to Lang, I love that the pieces are actually old. And I found that I was less interested in the ones where the stone had been reset into an exact replica of an original (but too damaged) ring. So... I guess I'd love to get an actual deco ring.

Dreamer_D, thanks for your thoughts on the stone. You're right that it IS the mount that first spoke to me; I was specifically not worrying about the stones and I was mostly trying to get inspiration for my plan to have a custom ring made! That being said, I did think the diamond performed just as well as most of the many other rings I tried on. It was very sparkly, and we did take it outside and looked at it in the shade (no sun available on that side of the street when I was there). Even not under the jeweler's lights, my feeling was "wow." But then, I am no expert, and I was very taken with the appearance of the ring as a whole. Obviously I need to go back and look at it again.

And thanks, TC, for those definitions. I think I was adding an "old" to Lang's description, which in fact says "European cut." I didn't know there was a difference! They do say that the ring is circa 1920s/1930s.
 
Ive been to Lang once. They have many, many lovely pieces but I did feel they were high priced for what some of the items were.
If you love it, negiotiate!!
Good luck:)
 
And thanks, TC, for those definitions. I think I was adding an "old" to Lang's description, which in fact says "European cut." I didn't know there was a difference! They do say that the ring is circa 1920s/1930s.
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You're welcome. :-) But I didn't direct that at you. I just posted it for clarification purposes because there was a lot of discussion about the unusually low crown and big table. The European cuts are beautiful, in their own way. I think they were almost a retaliation against the chunky facets and steep tall crowns and fire of the Old European Cuts. They are cut with more bias toward brilliance and spread than fire. There's an old Garry H. (creator of the HCA) comment that flashes of brilliance are seen from across the room. Where the Old European Cut is firey, the European cut is more "silvery" and cool and elegant, especially a very white stone set in platinum. They have fire, but it's seen from an angle or tilt, at the sides of the table or edges of the stone.

I became interested in the difference because one of my pawn shop diamonds appears to be a European cut. It seems quite well cut, but it's "different" from OEC or transitional or modern H&A cuts.
 
This is all so helpful. I think I'm going to stop in at Dianne's and VC before heading back to Lang. And then I'll reevaluate my feelings about the diamond in the context of all this new information. I feel so much more prepared now, and that means that I'll feel good about my decision whichever way it goes!

Thanks again, TC. I've just started looking, but there's not much out there about European cuts, as far as I can tell. It's good to know the basic differences in cut and performance from an OEC.
 
vintagelover229|1346969430|3263384 said:
Have you seen this one?

I know it's not *quite* the same but you could always buy the ring-sell the setting either on DB or to JBEG and then do a reset into a custom setting done by singlestone for the price difference between the 2 :naughty:

http://www.diamondbistro.com/category/216/Natural-Diamond-Center/listings/31406/Platinum14k-wg-Old-European-diamond-ring-186-ctw.html
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I am pretty darn sure I saw that ring on ebay before... let me go see if I still have it on my watch list.
 
jd1470258|1347139613|3264424 said:
This is all so helpful. I think I'm going to stop in at Dianne's and VC before heading back to Lang. And then I'll reevaluate my feelings about the diamond in the context of all this new information. I feel so much more prepared now, and that means that I'll feel good about my decision whichever way it goes!

Thanks again, TC. I've just started looking, but there's not much out there about European cuts, as far as I can tell. It's good to know the basic differences in cut and performance from an OEC.
Click to expand...


I love old cuts but prefer a transition cut over an OEC. I find them to have a bigger spread and light return (IMHO) and prettier facet patterns. Just my 2 cents........
 
Looks pretty on your hand , the pic where your hand is stretched out in front of you. That's the way you'll see it. I don't like it in the pic where it's in front of your shirt.... do you want it to look pretty for you or pretty for others? Both would be ideal but if you had to choose..... :devil:

I agree with others the prices is high.... and that's considering that Langs has a B&M store and web presence. Your plan to check out some other places and sleep on it is a good one. Wish you luck!
 
One more question, if anyone can help out: how are you arriving at your top dollar "what I would pay" for the ring? How much do you think the diamond is worth v the setting? (I know it depends on the performance of the diamond, but assume Lang's specs are correct for the sake of argument; I would get it appraised independently so if the specs are off it's a different issue.) The stone is est 1.15c, J VS1, 6.95mm spread. The setting is 900 plat 100 ir, tcw of the side stones est. .30. I'm trying to price out similar stones on OWD, etc and similar semi-mounts to come to some sort of reasonable comp value, but of course, I really lack the expertise to do so. Thanks again, everyone!
 
Its all find and dandy to name old cuts, but at the end of the day I personally want a diamond that performs well not matter the label anyone wants to give to it. I've seen a fair number of old cuts and for me personally, if the crown is lower than typical in older cuts I want a smaller table. Historically, the larger tables and really low crowns seemed to result primarily from a desire to save rough (the top part lopped off to form a second diamond being larger), and not to maximize "optics". Cutters always knew full well what they were doing when it came to cutting diamonds -- they always knew when they were maximizing weight perhaps at the expense of better diamond appearance. In the period that this diamond was likely cut, for example, a number of different diamond cutters had come up with proportions that were "ideal" and in each case, the table was smaller and the crown taller than this particular diamond appears to have! But just like today, those "ideal" proportions used more rough and cutters were not always happy to adopt them. Anyways, my point is that the romance of labels can sometimes blind people to examining the diamond and comparing it to other available options with a critical eye to its appearance.

OP: I think an antique mount in that shape might run into the $3k range, a high quality reproduction might run $5k+. The diamond is tricky. I think retail comps are in the $6500 - $7500 range assuming EGL grading, but that might be for really top cuts that are most desired on the market, it hard to know what the diamond would actually sell for. Safe to perhaps think $5k - $6k being high retail. On ebay a completed ring like that might fetch $3k to $4k, a diamond like that might fetch $2k. So that is the range. These are just my rough estimates based on my own "market watching".
 
I loved Lang's when I went there, but they are very expensive. I got my ring from San Francisco Provident Loan and they had a number of old cuts, including some in original mountings. With an older ring it may take more trial and error to find a ring since every ring is different. Since you really like an older setting, you may also be able to find the setting first and then work with any of the online/B&M to find the stone that fits the mounting.
 
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