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A thread about political correctness and publishing . . .

MichelleCarmen

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Re: A thread about political correctness and publishing . .

Hudson_Hawk|1294252011|2815030 said:
MC the report I was listening to said the issue came out of Alabama. The book wasn't being taught in classrooms because children and parents were offended by the use of the word.

I just did a quick google on WA State and found that around 2003, Huck Finn was banned from three schools. I guess more would have banned it by now? At that time, one school banned Harry Potter. I do know that my kids' school still has NUMEROUS copies of HP.

I love that the "Anarchist Cookbook" has been banned. lol! Luckily we already have that in our collection (no joke!) hahaha No, my kids have NOT looked at it!
 

TooPatient

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Re: A thread about political correctness and publishing . .

chemgirl|1294238076|2814829 said:
missy|1294191112|2814451 said:
I don't think censorship is OK.
Next we will be rewriting history and the holocaust never happened...no, it's a dangerous and slippery slope IMO.

I agree that the book shouldn't be changed and censorship in general is not OK. Its what worries me about having a Kindle rather than paper books. It seems like it would be much easier to control content with digital media, or to remove content entirely.

OT, but I find it interesting how people always talk about how we need to teach about the holocaust (we should) when we learn nothing about other mass killings of similar magnitude in the last century. It seems like history in schools has already been rewritten, or at least edited.

That is something I hadn't considered about a Kindle.... You make a VERY good point here!

I do NOT think it is okay to censor this book (or any book!) -- it is a classic that deals with a time in history that wasn't exactly pretty.


Context is VERY important and I think censorship like this is part of why kids (and adults too!) don't understand the importance/seriousness of certain events/words.
"Math sucks. My teacher is worse than Hitler!" (yep... really heard this -- heard it used by other people for stuff like this too)


It should be up to parents (and when old enough, the kid themself) to decide what is/isn't okay for their kid to read.
 

kenny

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Re: A thread about political correctness and publishing . .

MC|1294252789|2815043 said:
kenny|1294251748|2815026 said:
MC|1294251405|2815020 said:
swingirl|1294250265|2814999 said:
If so many people think it's a bad idea where are all those who want total political correctness and censorship of our history? Are they just not willing to post?

They're not willing to post. PS has become a place where if anything remotely lacks PCness, all hell breaks loose!

Good point.
Group-think certainly IS a problem here.

But in this case the majority are arguing against PCness.
PCness had to be the reason in this publisher changed Twain's words.

Exactly, we, who posted, are against removing it b/c the concept of PC has gone overboard and we want to keep history in tact (feeling respecting literature as it was as PC).

However others may feel that it's PC to remove it to reduce the chances of students being offended.

There are a couple different takes on the definition of PC (IMO) so it is a fine line in our society. Or maybe that is how I take it? If someone does feel it's better to remove it because they feel its PC, is it safe for that person to post here on our highly opinionated forum(s)???

The person may be scared to!

Agreed.
That's why this is such an interesting case, PC vs. PC.
 

Haven

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Re: A thread about political correctness and publishing . .

I am very much against the censorship of books and writing.
 

Jennifer W

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Re: A thread about political correctness and publishing . .

I don't get the point of removing a word from a book already in circulation - it isn't as though you can remove it from every copy that exists as if it was never written.

I think it's a very bad idea, for all the reasons already mentioned, but I also think it's a really dumb idea because I can't see what it might achieve. Maybe I'm missing something.
 

MichelleCarmen

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Re: A thread about political correctness and publishing . .

I just ordered Brave New World. Saw it on the banned book list and that reminded me I've been wanting to read it! :) One positive from googling banned books. lol
 

somethingshiny

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Re: A thread about political correctness and publishing . .

Seriously? The How to be a F****** Pedophile was fine, but the N word is not. First off, N word isn't as offensive as teaching someone how to harm children. Secondly, if the N word is removed from history, it means nothing anymore. The word definitely means something. It described several generations of mistreatment and disgusting abuse of human life and dignity. The word slave doesn't convey the magnitude of the issue. The N word does add to the story, IMO. It shows that even "polite" women, children, etc thought it okay to belittle others in that way. Slaves have been around a very long time. People would put themselves into slavery to get a ride on a ship, pay off a loan, etc. Slavery doesn't even come close to covering the actual feelings of people in that era towards black people.

I'm sure this post is all kinds of rambly but it really irritates me on so many levels. PC is out of hand. Ignoring the bad stuff doesn't mean it never happened.
 

dragonfly411

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Re: A thread about political correctness and publishing . .

Further - hip hop culture uses the word enough as it is. It's ok for them to call each other that, but we need to remove it from historical literature?
 

ksinger

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Re: A thread about political correctness and publishing . .

This isn't about PC vs non-PC. Those terms and concepts are relatively new. Call "PC" part of the bumper-sticker culture. This issue is about censorship, and whatever reason is trotted out for it - whether it be protecting society, the state, or protecting someone's highly evolved and delicate sensibilities, it's still just good old censorship. And mangling someone's artistic creation at that.

As many here have pointed out, context is important. While we have rightly moved past the time when use of this word in polite society is acceptable, to blanketly say that the word is uniformly offensive when blacks routinely call each OTHER that (if one is to believe many comedians and movies dealing with black culture), is disingenuous. And yes, I understand that the word has been taken back, empowered, whatever, but it kinda belies the idea that the very sound or sight of the word causes ears and eyes to bleed and palpitations to begin.

That word was chosen by the author and is integral to the era and the story. Good gosh, if we accept this, where will it end??
 

lucyandroger

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Re: A thread about political correctness and publishing . .

dragonfly411|1294256862|2815095 said:
Further - hip hop culture uses the word enough as it is. It's ok for them to call each other that, but we need to remove it from historical literature?

For your information, this idea came from Alan Gribben, a white professor. I would urge you not to make this a "we" vs. "them" issue since that is not the case and this is a mixed race board so we are not all the same "we."


As for my opinion, I am against the censoring of books and this is no exception.
 

ksinger

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Re: A thread about political correctness and publishing . .

lucyandroger|1294263732|2815153 said:
dragonfly411|1294256862|2815095 said:
Further - hip hop culture uses the word enough as it is. It's ok for them to call each other that, but we need to remove it from historical literature?

For your information, this idea came from Alan Gribben, a white professor. I would urge you not to make this a "we" vs. "them" issue since that is not the case and this is a mixed race board so we are not all the same "we."


As for my opinion, I am against the censoring of books and this is no exception.


You're absolutely right on that. I almost mused in my post about who it was exactly, who was so offended. I'm not surprised that white people were in the mix. And I'd truly like to say that I was surprised that an academic was one of the ones proposing such censorship, but sadly, I'm not. I find it amusing that they scream "academic freedom" all day long, and then try to push through a thing like this. Nice to know that the supposedly smartest people in the room are prone to the same flawed reasoning and hypocrisies as the plebs. Wish they could see it too. :rolleyes:
 

princesss

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Re: A thread about political correctness and publishing . .

lucyandroger|1294263732|2815153 said:
dragonfly411|1294256862|2815095 said:
Further - hip hop culture uses the word enough as it is. It's ok for them to call each other that, but we need to remove it from historical literature?

For your information, this idea came from Alan Gribben, a white professor. I would urge you not to make this a "we" vs. "them" issue since that is not the case and this is a mixed race board so we are not all the same "we."


As for my opinion, I am against the censoring of books and this is no exception.

Well said, lucyandroger.
 

zoebartlett

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Re: A thread about political correctness and publishing . .

Hudson_Hawk|1294235224|2814804 said:
I was listening to a debate about this on the radio this morning.

I do not feel the N word is appropriate in any current context or use (rap music, slang, etc). However, this isn't a current incident. This was a book written at a time and about a time where our culture and society were very different than they are today. Mark Twain used the word for a specific reason to convey a particular meaning and evoke a particular feeling. He didn't choose to use it lightly, I'm sure. The word is appropriate in this historical and literary context and to remove it or change it to "slave" would totally change the meaning of the story and take away some of the power of the story and the lessons taught in it. Besides, the N word and slave are not synonymous, so how is referring to any black person (fictional or otherwise) who was not a slave as a slave any more politically correct?

It's unfortunate that parents and children are uncomfortable with and unwilling to read the book because of the N word. I think the fault doesn't lie with Mark Twain and his use of the word, the fault lies with the teachers, administrators and parents in Alabama. Focus should be placed on the word and why it was used. Address the use of the word prior to reading it. Find a way to make it an example in a lesson about why the word shouldn't be used and why it's hurtful instead of just pretending it's not there or refusing to read it all together.

In my opinion it's a bad idea to censor (which is what they're essentially proposing to do) any literary work. If this happens then what's stopping people from censoring other literary works, like Catcher in the Rye or Lolita, or not teaching about WWII because the subject of the Holocaust or Hitler/Nazis are too offensive to some of the students and parents.

Great post, HH! I completely agree. I've been trying to put together my thoughts on this since I first read the title the other day, but you (and others) have said it better than I could.
 

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Re: A thread about political correctness and publishing . .

swingirl|1294250265|2814999 said:
If so many people think it's a bad idea where are all those who want total political correctness and censorship of our history? Are they just not willing to post?
I was thinking the same thing. I'd actually love to hear from someone who supports rewriting (and possibly banning) books. I don't know a single person who would say that it's okay but obviously those people are out there.
 

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Re: A thread about political correctness and publishing . .

dragonfly411|1294256862|2815095 said:
Further - hip hop culture uses the word enough as it is. It's ok for them to call each other that, but we need to remove it from historical literature?

Not all of "them" call each other that. I'm black and I've never said the N-word in my life and don't agree with it's usage by anyone. I also don't agree with removing it from literary works since doing so serves no real purpose and would take away from the work. Erasing that word from books will not take away that ugly period in our history.
 

somethingshiny

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Re: A thread about political correctness and publishing . .

When I read df's post, I didn't think "them" was referring to the entire black population, but rather the hip-hop culture. Just putting that out there because I really don't think she meant it like that.
 

Imdanny

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Re: A thread about political correctness and publishing . .

Kenny, I think you put your finger on it. This self professed Berkley graduate who got his sensibilities offended by saying those words (he makes me want to puke with his upper middle class self centered arrogance) probably did it for the :$$): . Either way, censoring great works of art should never be done. Bad editing, poor judgment (what everyone has always done is have a discussion about how language and social mores change before teaching these books), and greed.
 

swimmer

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Re: A thread about political correctness and publishing . .

I am opposed to the change and think it is pointless...but might make the publisher some cash from school districts who have outraged parents that feel their children can't handle the messy past...note that the school districts that have banned this book were overwhelmingly white.

What I am really curious about is the statement I keep reading here, "history doesn't change." Well, yes it does. The basic facts (dates, who won the battle) remain the same, but the way we interpret patterns of action in the past and see these choices in light of the human condition changes quite a bit. What is emphasized changes, who is included in the study of history changes... If you studied US history in the 1950s you probably learned that Native Americans were somehow lesser creatures who had to be defeated so the glorious settlers could move in. No mention of smallpox transmission, poisoning water sources, or the US govt committing all sorts of genocidal acts. This is not re-inventing the past, it is including more information. We never know all the facts. Heck, JFK was shot in front of dozens of people and the story is still garbled, even when we watch the video... Sometimes what we used to think was the truth really in light of recent discoveries is really not true at all. It is trite to write that he who does not study the past is doomed to repeat it. We all know about the USSR's incredible failure in Afghanistan throughout the 1980s, but looking back at that with the knowledge that the US has entered into a similar situation gives the past new usefulness. The same mistakes will be made over and over (trickle down economics anyone) but we will make them in new and different ways that only with hindsight can be truly understood.

Again, I think it is foolish to make the change in a text, but the statements about history being immutable...are challenging for me to understand. The way we understand the past changes as constantly as history is both created and recorded by mere humans.
 

dragonfly411

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Re: A thread about political correctness and publishing . .

ImperfectGirl|1294268109|2815216 said:
dragonfly411|1294256862|2815095 said:
Further - hip hop culture uses the word enough as it is. It's ok for them to call each other that, but we need to remove it from historical literature?

Not all of "them" call each other that. I'm black and I've never said the N-word in my life and don't agree with it's usage by anyone. I also don't agree with removing it from literary works since doing so serves no real purpose and would take away from the work. Erasing that word from books will not take away that ugly period in our history.


Imperfect - I stated clearly that the hip hop culture does. White people belong to the hip hop culture too, and yes they DO use it.

And when I said we, I meant it as a collective group of the nation and/or world. We as a whole society. I did not mean one small group of we, or one race or one group of people.
 

kenny

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Re: A thread about political correctness and publishing . .

This is directed at nobody in particular, but please stay away from racial/ethnic discussions.

Those are topics, like religion and politics, we cannot discuss here.
 

ksinger

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Re: A thread about political correctness and publishing . .

swimmer|1294325115|2815675 said:
I am opposed to the change and think it is pointless...but might make the publisher some cash from school districts who have outraged parents that feel their children can't handle the messy past...note that the school districts that have banned this book were overwhelmingly white.

What I am really curious about is the statement I keep reading here, "history doesn't change." Well, yes it does. The basic facts (dates, who won the battle) remain the same, but the way we interpret patterns of action in the past and see these choices in light of the human condition changes quite a bit. What is emphasized changes, who is included in the study of history changes... If you studied US history in the 1950s you probably learned that Native Americans were somehow lesser creatures who had to be defeated so the glorious settlers could move in. No mention of smallpox transmission, poisoning water sources, or the US govt committing all sorts of genocidal acts. This is not re-inventing the past, it is including more information. We never know all the facts. Heck, JFK was shot in front of dozens of people and the story is still garbled, even when we watch the video... Sometimes what we used to think was the truth really in light of recent discoveries is really not true at all. It is trite to write that he who does not study the past is doomed to repeat it. We all know about the USSR's incredible failure in Afghanistan throughout the 1980s, but looking back at that with the knowledge that the US has entered into a similar situation gives the past new usefulness. The same mistakes will be made over and over (trickle down economics anyone) but we will make them in new and different ways that only with hindsight can be truly understood.

Again, I think it is foolish to make the change in a text, but the statements about history being immutable...are challenging for me to understand. The way we understand the past changes as constantly as history is both created and recorded by mere humans.

Ah, now Swimmer, you may not recall it, but I do - this discussion of historical change and interpretation was had many moons ago. I remember quite well because I cajoled my husband into writing a little explantion of history and how it changes as we change, which he graciously consented to do. The response was, well that's OK, but too esoteric, too academic. Maybe you, sporting the cred of being the board's resident history teacher, can say the exact same thing (and you are, of course), and will get better reviews than he did.
 

MichelleCarmen

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Re: A thread about political correctness and publishing . .

somethingshiny|1294290098|2815516 said:
When I read df's post, I didn't think "them" was referring to the entire black population, but rather the hip-hop culture. Just putting that out there because I really don't think she meant it like that.

Same. Agree with SS that DF was directing her comment specifically as hip-hop culture.

Eminem.
 

MichelleCarmen

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Re: A thread about political correctness and publishing . .

kenny|1294332047|2815775 said:
This is directed at nobody in particular, but please stay away from racial/ethnic discussions.

Those are topics, like religion and politics, we cannot discuss here.

I think at least a few comments are inevitable. Just the way things go with these topics! ;-)
 

swimmer

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Re: A thread about political correctness and publishing . .

Ksinger, Honey, I can't even remember DH's cell phone number these days. link to your post so I can peruse again? There are history profs on here who are way more eloquent etc than I can ever be. I hope they chime in, this history-founding fathers-Constitution-sacrosanct-written-word-infallible thing is so insidious, I just wonder where it came from.

And yes, I was watching the Constitution being read earlier...but all I could do was wonder if anyone was going to cry...

And no, the changing of a word in a book is not "political correctness" it is pandering to the lowest, dumbest, most knee-jerk reactionaries out there. Being "PC" is being concerned about not offending others whose perspectives might be different from one's own.
 

ksinger

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Re: A thread about political correctness and publishing . .

swimmer|1294335181|2815820 said:
Ksinger, Honey, I can't even remember DH's cell phone number these days. link to your post so I can peruse again? There are history profs on here who are way more eloquent etc than I can ever be. I hope they chime in, this history-founding fathers-Constitution-sacrosanct-written-word-infallible thing is so insidious, I just wonder where it came from.

And yes, I was watching the Constitution being read earlier...but all I could do was wonder if anyone was going to cry...

And no, the changing of a word in a book is not "political correctness" it is pandering to the lowest, dumbest, most knee-jerk reactionaries out there. Being "PC" is being concerned about not offending others whose perspectives might be different from one's own.

Alas, Swimmer, it was in one of the long-ago-evaporated threads of the wild west ATW days. I just remember that the "there is only one interpretation of history" view was espoused, and I thought the perspective of someone who had made history - its study, interpretation, and teaching, a life's work, might be in order - to tell people how actual historians view the writing of history. Didn't go over so well...

ETA - Oh I could speculate with some surety on where it came from. But we'll have to discuss it elsewhere...
 

somethingshiny

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Re: A thread about political correctness and publishing . .

You know who would have fascinating posts on this topic? CUSO :bigsmile:
 

mrscushion

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Re: A thread about political correctness and publishing . .

I think it's a very bad idea, because it amounts to rewriting history. Terrible mistakes have always been made throughout history and that is how our societies evolve. Students need to be taught to think critically about these mistakes and learn from them.
 

iLander

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Re: A thread about political correctness and publishing . .

I looked up Huck Finn on google books and read through some passages with the n-word. I believe that Twain intended to show the poor attitude of the white people that were using the word in a disparaging way. I think changing the word waters down these passages and makes the specific white characters look "better" than they really were.

The n-word was a slur at the time that Huck Finn was written. Twain used it deliberately to make a point.

Covering up this aspect of history, and pretending it didn't happen, could allow it to happen again.

BUT, I think some print censorship in society is actually necessary. I think books like "How to be a Pedophile" or other books that expressly instruct others in illegal activities, should be banned.

Just as yelling "fire" in a movie theater doesn't count as free speech, writing instruction manuals for illegal activities does not count as freedom of the press.

IMHO . . .

As for PC; I think people are getting a bit thin-skinned these days . . .
 

katamari

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Re: A thread about political correctness and publishing . .

Censorship is a bad idea and a very slippery slope. I heard an interview with Professor Gribben and his argument is basically that high schools do not have complicated, nuanced discussions of race and class and, then, the book should be edited to make it available to the students. My question, then, is why not have the complicated, nuanced discussions if that truly is the concern? Why bend to censorship and lowest common denominator education?

Political correctness does not mean cultural sensitivity as it is used.
 
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