A Tale of Two EGLs - Need Help!

[Khalsa007]

Diamond #1:
EGL USA (87210004D)
4Cs: 1.51, G, VS2, Ideal Plus
Measurements: 7.44*7.39*4.52mm
Depth: 61%, Table: 56%
Polish/Symmetry: Ex/VG
Crown Angle/Pavilion Angle: 34.1/40.8
Crown Height/Pavilion Depth: 14.8/42.9
Girdle: Thin to Medium, 1.2% - 1.6%
Fluorescence: None
Notes: Hearts and Arrows
HCA: 1.0
AGA Grader Tool: 1A

I haven''t seen this in person but it sounds amazing. EGL USA is supposed to be just under GIA/AGS so I''m sure its trustworthy and I saw the certificate of it. Waiting to hear back from the vendor for and IS images, ACET, etc.

Diamond #2:
EGL (2927295339)
4Cs: 1.72, F, VS1, Excellent
Measurements: 7.70*7.66*4.76mm
Depth: 62%, Table: 57%
Polish/Symmetry: Ex/Ex
Crown Angle/Pavilion Angle: ??/??
Crown Height/Pavilion Depth: 15/43
Girdle: Medium, Faceted
Fluorescence: None
Notes: Hearts and Arrows
HCA: 1.3 (estimated)
AGA Grader Tool: 1B (estimated)

I''ve looked at #2 in person and it looked amazing. Very clear with no visible inclusions at all. My only concern is that the color was definitely not a GIA F, probably between GIA G-H but definitely a notable difference from the G GIA diamond. I''ve heard and seen that once the diamond is put into the setting as long as its XXX and has ideal Angles/% then it will sparkle with the best of them...what can I ask the vendor to get the crown angle/pavilion angle and make sure the EGL certificate is legit?

Could I get some expert advice please? Thank you so much!

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 1/20/2010 11:19:04 PM
Author:Khalsa007
Diamond #1:
EGL USA (87210004D)
4Cs: 1.51, G, VS2, Ideal Plus
Measurements: 7.44*7.39*4.52mm
Depth: 61%, Table: 56%
Polish/Symmetry: Ex/VG
Crown Angle/Pavilion Angle: 34.1/40.8
Crown Height/Pavilion Depth: 14.8/42.9
Girdle: Thin to Medium, 1.2% - 1.6%
Fluorescence: None
Notes: Hearts and Arrows
HCA: 1.0
AGA Grader Tool: 1A

I haven't seen this in person but it sounds amazing. EGL USA is supposed to be just under GIA/AGS so I'm sure its trustworthy and I saw the certificate of it. Waiting to hear back from the vendor for and IS images, ACET, etc.

Diamond #2:
EGL (2927295339)
4Cs: 1.72, F, VS1, Excellent
Measurements: 7.70*7.66*4.76mm
Depth: 62%, Table: 57%
Polish/Symmetry: Ex/Ex
Crown Angle/Pavilion Angle: ??/??
Crown Height/Pavilion Depth: 15/43
Girdle: Medium, Faceted
Fluorescence: None
Notes: Hearts and Arrows
HCA: 1.3 (estimated)
AGA Grader Tool: 1B (estimated)

I've looked at #2 in person and it looked amazing. Very clear with no visible inclusions at all. My only concern is that the color was definitely not a GIA F, probably between GIA G-H but definitely a notable difference from the G GIA diamond. I've heard and seen that once the diamond is put into the setting as long as its XXX and has ideal Angles/% then it will sparkle with the best of them...what can I ask the vendor to get the crown angle/pavilion angle and make sure the EGL certificate is legit?

Could I get some expert advice please? Thank you so much!

Hi Khalsa

Post the images if you can get them, the first has potential but I would advise making the sale final on the diamond checking out with an independant appraisal to make sure it checks out.

With the second, the angles are needed as you know, same as above an appraisal would be prudent. A Sarin or Helium scan would be needed to get the angles if the vendor has access to a scanner. Also images of both hearts and arrows would be needed in order to evaluate the cut precision and resultant optical symmetry necessary to give a crisp pattern.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

The second report is an EGL-Israel report, so you''ll want to have the grading checked out. Usually EGL-Israel is soft on their grading, color grading in particular, as you noticed. Good eye.

 

[Khalsa007]

Thanks Lorelei and Richard.

I had another question, after reading many many different sites and threads on the forum and first hand I''ve noticed that EGL is soft with their grading but my question is, is EGL generally soft on colors only? I was reading something on brilliance.com that:

"As a general rule, an EGL certified diamond will compare equally in quality to a GIA certified diamond that is graded two color grades and one clarity grade lower. For example, an EGL diamond graded G in color and VS2 in clarity is comparable to a GIA diamond graded I in color and SI1 in clarity. As a result, GIA certified diamonds are considered more valuable and provide the consumer with more confidence in the product they are purchasing."

Is this always the case with EGL diamonds? I''ve have seen a very very clear EGL diamond that wouldn''t go down in clarity lower but I do agree that you have to get "lucky" if the color is close to what you bought it at. Do EGL diamonds ever go further than the 2 grades lower rule? EGL is within my budget and the diamond looks amazing. I''m still waiting on the Sarin/Helim report to confirm the angles and should have the specs today but I''m getting a really good deal on the 1.72 FVS1 and at worst case scenario if I was to get it appraised or certified by GIA it should receive an HVS2 I would think...thoughts?

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 1/22/2010 7:57:31 AM
Author: Khalsa007
Thanks Lorelei and Richard.

I had another question, after reading many many different sites and threads on the forum and first hand I've noticed that EGL is soft with their grading but my question is, is EGL generally soft on colors only? I was reading something on brilliance.com that:

'As a general rule, an EGL certified diamond will compare equally in quality to a GIA certified diamond that is graded two color grades and one clarity grade lower. For example, an EGL diamond graded G in color and VS2 in clarity is comparable to a GIA diamond graded I in color and SI1 in clarity. As a result, GIA certified diamonds are considered more valuable and provide the consumer with more confidence in the product they are purchasing.'

Is this always the case with EGL diamonds? I've have seen a very very clear EGL diamond that wouldn't go down in clarity lower but I do agree that you have to get 'lucky' if the color is close to what you bought it at. Do EGL diamonds ever go further than the 2 grades lower rule? EGL is within my budget and the diamond looks amazing. I'm still waiting on the Sarin/Helim report to confirm the angles and should have the specs today but I'm getting a really good deal on the 1.72 FVS1 and at worst case scenario if I was to get it appraised or certified by GIA it should receive an HVS2 I would think...thoughts?

You are welcome Khalsa!

As to your question, Rich or one of the other appraisers can give you a better answer than I can, but it is my understanding that both colour and clarity can be affected in this way and it also depends on the branch of EGL; some overseas EGL labs can be less strict than EGL USA for example. However I would take from Rich's comments that in his experience EGL Israel can be less accurate for colour grading moreso than clarity, but he will be able to expound on this.

 

[Khalsa007]

Thanks Lorelei!

Clarity is the utmost importance to my girlfriend and I, its being put into a setting which shows much of the pavilion so we don''t want to sacrifice too much on color/clarity and I know a few friends who have dealt with this vendor who are very happy with their stones. I hope a few appraisers can help me with the clarity issue. Does anyone have any experience with EGL Isreal grading a stone F that could be I, J? I don''t think their gemologists would be that lax...

Also I''ve included the diagram of the diamond#2 for now, I''m waiting on the other high quality images and reports. Would this be classified VS1, VS2 or SI1? Thanks all for your continued help!

 

[jet2ks]

You can''t determine clarity from an inclusion map. The diagram just shows where and what type the inclusions are, while the clarity grade is based on how easy they are to see under 10x magnification.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 1/22/2010 10:35:02 AM
Author: jet2ks
You can''t determine clarity from an inclusion map. The diagram just shows where and what type the inclusions are, while the clarity grade is based on how easy they are to see under 10x magnification.

Ditto Jet, also in some cases EGL has been known to be off by more than one or two grades, so an appraisal is essential should you decide to proceed - and make the sale final on the diamond checking out to your satisfaction in all aspects.

And you are most welcome, glad to help!

 

[Khalsa007]

@jet, noted and will take that into account when I look at it.

@Lorelei, I def will get an appraisal before its bought.

I got the Sarin results back on the diamond and I''m not too happy with what I see...

What do you guys think? Based on the Sarin?

 

[jet2ks]

Based on the Sarin, I would say pass and keep looking. 35.4/41 angle combo is almost always going to leak light and not be a top performer--run the HCA again with the angles (which are more accurate than %) and see what you get.

 

[Khalsa007]

Thanks jets.

yeah I just ran the HCA and AGA Grader Tool.

It received 3.6 on the HCA and 1B on the Grader Tool...how can it receive such good marks on the AGA but not so great marks on the HCA?

 

[jet2ks]

This combo I would call above average compared to most diamonds on the market, it could likely get an Excellent cut rating from GIA. Proportions like this are usually a case where the cutter was cutting for weight retention rather than performance. You just need to decide if you want above average or top notch. With having these proportions, it was probably sent to EGL to receive a better color and clarity rating, so I would be very cautious about that. If it was really a F or even G color and VS clarity, it most likely would have been sent to GIA in order to have a higher retail value.

 

[stone-cold11]

Probably no good on cut performance.

 

[Khalsa007]

Understood. I guess I will stay within the GIA/AGS graded stones rather than EGL. I''m not a gemologist so I don''t really know what color the F would become but I would say an H or I because it def was more tinted than a G GIA.

I just found an H SI1 on Mondera which scored a 1.2 on HCA but a 2A on the AGA Grader. How come there is a discrepancy? It''s near my price range which is max $9,700...thanks again everyone.

Here are the specs:

AGS#: 1040370390008
Report Type: Diamond Quality™ Report
Shape and Style: Round Brilliant
Measurements: 7.53 - 7.58 x 4.68 mm
Carat Weight: 1.655
Total Depth: 61.8%
Table: 54.2%
Girdle Description: Thin to Slightly Thick, Faceted
Culet: Pointed
Polish: Excellent
Symmetry: Excellent
Color Grade: AGS 2.0 (H)
Clarity Grade: AGS 5 (SI1)
Fluorescence: Negligible
Comments:

"AGSL 1040370390008" has been inscribed on the girdle of this diamond.
Additional twinning wisps and surface graining are not shown.

Table: 54.2%
Crown Angle: 35.4
Crown Height: 16.3%
Girdle: Faceted, 1.5% to 4.2%
Pavilion Angle: 40.0
Pavilion Depth: 41.9%
Star Length: 52%
Lower Girdle Length: 82%
Total Depth: 61.8%
Culet Verbose: Pointed

 

[stone-cold11]

Pavilion is too shallow, will have obstruction issue, which is the stone will look dark when you are looking at it closely.

 

[jet2ks]

Date: 1/22/2010 1:29:14 PM
Author: Stone-cold11
Pavilion is too shallow, will have obstruction issue, which is the stone will look dark when you are looking at it closely.

Yep. It scores well on HCA because it may still be a good performing stone, just one better suited for a pendant or earring where viewing distances and light angles are different.

 

[Khalsa007]

@ EVERYONE. Thanks guys so much for all your help!

I just wanted to update you guys and Lorelei, I finally made my purchase! I wasn''t even looking at anything over 1.7ct and the vendor I went to showed me this 2.08ct and I just couldn''t say no. And I really think I got an amazing deal. Specs are in the GIA Cert and below, I will definitely post pictures when I get the ring!

Dream Diamond!
GIA 5101436894
4Cs: 2.08, G, SI2, Excellent
Measurements: 8.20*8.17*5.05
Depth: 61.7%, Table: 57%
Polish/Symmetry: VG/VG
Crown Angle/Pavilion Angle: 35.5/40.6
Crown Height/Pavilion Depth: 15.5/43.0
Girdle: Thin to Medium
Fluorescence: None
Notes: Hearts and Arrows (even though not noted by GIA)
HCA: 1.4 within TIC
AGA Grader Tool: 1B
Price: $10,640

The diamond of course is not perfect, it has a few indented naturals but the best thing about it is that the one that can be seen can be covered by the prong! My girlfriend is going to faint when she sees this! especially in her Tacori HT2311 setting. I can''t thank everyone enough for all the help figuring out angles, etc etc. The lady at the store was like, "are you a gemologist?" haha. ahhhhhhhhhhh just super excited. I''m finally done with ring and diamond shopping!

 

[stone-cold11]

Good luck with the next step.

Will be waiting for the hand shot.

 

[yssie]

Congratulations!!

Can''t wait to see it finished!