A Question for Those in Academia or Research

[kama_s]

I quit my job two days ago to move to another company that is more in tune to my background, pays better and is less demanding than my current position. I thought the news was well-received, and I gave them almost 3 weeks notice. I am working incredibly hard right now to ensure the transition is smooth. I was asked for feedback from my current managers (who also own the company) and said nothing but extremely positive comments about them.

Here's the problem: The past few months I have been working on a clinical trial. Before I joined, the study was a mess. They themselves admitted they didnt have much experience in the area, and I being well-versed with multi-centre clinical trials, was able to jump right into it. I have slaved over this project, worked overtime (without compensation) and went above and beyond my responsibilities. We are currently writing an abstract to get it published (due 1st week of August) and I just found out my name was removed. No talk about it with me. Nothing.

Needless to say, I am upset. But I'd like to know from those in the field: was this a reasonable decision on my employer's part? I don't see why my institution can't be the same as my current company since I WAS an employee while I did this research.

Even for my grad work, I graduated but those continuing the studies still put my name down under the grad institution. What gives?

 

[Callisto]

That's ridiculous. You should request to be put back on the author list. I did work on a project in my undergrad and graduated before it was even submitted and they still put my name on the paper. You did the work and deserve the credit, no matter who you are working for when it is published.

 

[Clairitek]

Ethically, I think your name should be on that study since you've played a major role in the continuation and success of the project. I think that some of my work might continue after I am gone and I really, really hope that my name gets put on those papers. I know my research group has a habit of doing something like that when former grad students who have contributed significantly to the project. I can think of examples where a student that left 2-3 years prior to a paper getting published was still listed as an author. As long as you're not listed as the corredponding author, I don't see anything wrong with that.

 

[kama_s]

Thanks for your input, Callisto. That is what I figured as well. I am going to have a talk with the manager who took my name off on Monday. If he still refuses, I am going to let him know in no uncertain terms that I am not happy about this and it has soured my experience significantly. They have also asked me to keep an eye open for people they can hire, and I will let them know that I am no longer able to recommend them as an employer.

Can you tell I am upset about this? This is the same guy I have had long discussions on dishonest people in academia/industry who steal work and put themselves as first authors on publications they didn't deserve, so I'm quite surprised he did this to me.

This is when I also told them I will be more than happy to work on the study for a week or two after I leave (in the evening) to ensure things are still running smoothly...for FREE.

 

[kama_s]

Ethically, I think your name should be on that study since you've played a major role in the continuation and success of the project. I think that some of my work might continue after I am gone and I really, really hope that my name gets put on those papers. I know my research group has a habit of doing something like that when former grad students who have contributed significantly to the project. I can think of examples where a student that left 2-3 years prior to a paper getting published was still listed as an author. As long as you're not listed as the corredponding author, I don't see anything wrong with that.

Those are my exact thoughts. My grad school work is still being published, I did 60-70% of it. I am not corresponding/first author, but am second or third.

 

[hawaiianorangetree]

Most definately! You contributed, so your name should be there. I know that with the large study I work for, the papers that have been published contain the names of all that have contributed, regardless of whether they were still working with us or not (and most were not).

 

[kama_s]

Most definately! You contributed, so your name should be there. I know that with the large study I work for, the papers that have been published contain the names of all that have contributed, regardless of whether they were still working with us or not (and most were not).

Thank you for sharing your experience, HOT. I spoke with one of my managers yesterday and asked her why my name had been taken of. She wasn't aware about that and was surprised herself. But then she went on to say that maybe it is because I am moving to industry instead of academia, which is absolute BS. I didn't think where I go matters. First thing on Monday is a talk with the other manager....let's see how reasonable he is about this.

This has really ruined my weekend

 

[Dreamer_D]

You should NOT have been removed as an author.

But I am not sure how it works in the private section. In academe, technically authorship is "payment" for contributions you make for free. If you are a paid RA you do not get authorship. Because you are a salaried employee then technically from the rules we use, you would not get authorship unless the lead author thought that you had made a contribution above and beyond. If I were the lead author, and we have done this before, and there was an RA we thought was great we would offer them authorship but require that they also perform some gratis contribution like creating reference lists, graphs etc. just to make it clear they made a contribution beyond what they were paid. But if you have already made a gratis contribution then this is moot and you should be an author.

I would talk about it with your former employer, but if it is a grey area then you may not really have much recourse.

I think the fact that you *were* on the paper (on a draft even) and then were removed means you previously made enough contribution to warrant authorship. They cannot negate that contribution because you leave the company in my opinion.

 

[Art Nouveau]

kama_s,

Your name should be on the paper. It should not matter that you have joined another company. I was in academic research for 20 years before I changed track. My collaborators included my name as author years after I quit research. Quite often, who gets listed as author is an issue. Some professors will list graduate students and postdocs, but not research assistants, but some do. In the lab I was in, usually if you are just following orders to run some tests, but are not contributing to analysis of the data or planning of the project, you will not be includedas author. You will be, if you plan the experiments, analyze the data, interpret the results and draw conclusions; then put the figures together and help write the paper. In your case, I think you should insist to have your rename reinstated as author.

AN

 

[kama_s]

kama_s,

Your name should be on the paper. It should not matter that you have joined another company. I was in academic research for 20 years before I changed track. My collaborators included my name as author years after I quit research. Quite often, who gets listed as author is an issue. Some professors will list graduate students and postdocs, but not research assistants, but some do. In the lab I was in, usually if you are just following orders to run some tests, but are not contributing to analysis of the data or planning of the project, you will not be includedas author. You will be, if you plan the experiments, analyze the data, interpret the results and draw conclusions; then put the figures together and help write the paper. In your case, I think you should insist to have your rename reinstated as author.

AN

Agreed. In academia, none of the RA's that would help with the study got their name on the paper. However, I am currently in industry and with this study, I am undoubtedly the biggest contributor. I managed the study (all the numerous sites), provided clinical support, did all the statistical analyses and wrote the draft abstract. If anyone wanted to know anything about the study, they would come to me - anything on the numbers, the status, the clinical aspect etc. I was also the liason between our company and the drug company that is funding this study. So I find it absurd they would take my name off!

Thank you for your input!

ETA: Sorry for all the edits. I am typing from my iPhone and didn't notice the typos until after I submitted the post.

 

[kama_s]

You should NOT have been removed as an author.

But I am not sure how it works in the private section. In academe, technically authorship is "payment" for contributions you make for free. If you are a paid RA you do not get authorship. Because you are a salaried employee then technically from the rules we use, you would not get authorship unless the lead author thought that you had made a contribution above and beyond. If I were the lead author, and we have done this before, and there was an RA we thought was great we would offer them authorship but require that they also perform some gratis contribution like creating reference lists, graphs etc. just to make it clear they made a contribution beyond what they were paid. But if you have already made a gratis contribution then this is moot and you should be an author.

I would talk about it with your former employer, but if it is a grey area then you may not really have much recourse.

I think the fact that you *were* on the paper (on a draft even) and then were removed means you previously made enough contribution to warrant authorship. They cannot negate that contribution because you leave the company in my opinion.

You know, I have never thought about the RAs who put in so much effort and never get their name on any publications. I feel absolutely awful about that. I have always been in the position of either lead author or research student, so the question of my name not being on a publication has never come up! In grad school, often we would help other students and fellows with their research for free, and we never asked or expected our name to be on the paper. We hoped our fellow grad students would do the same for us as well and happily accept a drink or lunch out in lieu. So I have never been in this situation before and it honestly baffles me.

P.S.: Would LOVE for someone to do my references for me! Ugh, the one thing I absolutely detest.

 

[Art Nouveau]

kama_s,

I understand what you mean about the references. When I was writing papers, that was the part that I dread the most as I am terrible at typing. To make things worse, every journal wants a different format. Do you use Endnote? That program helps a lot to make things easier.

AN

 

[Dreamer_D]

You should NOT have been removed as an author.

But I am not sure how it works in the private section. In academe, technically authorship is "payment" for contributions you make for free. If you are a paid RA you do not get authorship. Because you are a salaried employee then technically from the rules we use, you would not get authorship unless the lead author thought that you had made a contribution above and beyond. If I were the lead author, and we have done this before, and there was an RA we thought was great we would offer them authorship but require that they also perform some gratis contribution like creating reference lists, graphs etc. just to make it clear they made a contribution beyond what they were paid. But if you have already made a gratis contribution then this is moot and you should be an author.

I would talk about it with your former employer, but if it is a grey area then you may not really have much recourse.

I think the fact that you *were* on the paper (on a draft even) and then were removed means you previously made enough contribution to warrant authorship. They cannot negate that contribution because you leave the company in my opinion.

You know, I have never thought about the RAs who put in so much effort and never get their name on any publications. I feel absolutely awful about that. I have always been in the position of either lead author or research student, so the question of my name not being on a publication has never come up! In grad school, often we would help other students and fellows with their research for free, and we never asked or expected our name to be on the paper. We hoped our fellow grad students would do the same for us as well and happily accept a drink or lunch out in lieu. So I have never been in this situation before and it honestly baffles me.

P.S.: Would LOVE for someone to do my references for me! Ugh, the one thing I absolutely detest.

In my opinon, RAs should not get their names on papers unless they really go above and beyond. I feel like authorship is your compensation for your effort, time, ideas etc. If you are being paid, then that was you compensation. I have only ever offered authorship to one RA on a paper, and it was not my idea but the lead author's idea. I do always thank RAs in the author note. But to me, authorship means a lot and a high level of gratis contribution is required to merit it.

Yup, I am mean.

I have helped a lot of people with ideas and with data analysis and planning future studies. I will admit in a few cases I felt that I should have been given authorship for my contribution, but left it be. I am a little more stingy with my help now. Students, of course, I will help no matter what for free, that is my job.

 

[Art Nouveau]

Dreamer_D:

I was an RA at a major University for 20 years and I am glad my boss did not share your opinion on authorship for RAs. I have over 50 publications with my name on it and I was first author on the ones that I actually did most of the work and wrote. I don't see how getting paid has anything to do with it. Professors and postdocs get paid too. It's your contribution to the project that determines whether you are listed as author and how far down the list your name appears.

kama_s: I hope you can convince your former employer to reinstate you as author. You deserve it.

AN

 

[waterlilly]

When I was in academia, RA's very commonly were on publications - this was medical research so as most people who have worked in that type of lab know, the RA is doing a lot of the bench work. Many labs had no grad students, just the post doc and an RA to all their work! There was a funny cartoon about it this somewhere...am going to see if I can find it - here! http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive.php?comicid=562.

But, in industry, I also left before a study I was managing was finished. I was the PM, did 1.5 years worth of work on it and just after I began compiling the data to begin writing I left for another job. I have zero expectations that I will be on that publication though I did ALL the work. It's a job - I was paid to do it, and there was no part of my employment package that said I had rights to authorship on any project I worked on, pretty sure I signed something to the contrary now that I think of it...

Employees at the time the paper is submitted will have their names on there, not me, I guarantee it.

 

[hawaiianorangetree]

Dreamer_D:

I was an RA at a major University for 20 years and I am glad my boss did not share your opinion on authorship for RAs. I have over 50 publications with my name on it and I was first author on the ones that I actually did most of the work and wrote. I don't see how getting paid has anything to do with it. Professors and postdocs get paid too. It's your contribution to the project that determines whether you are listed as author and how far down the list your name appears.

kama_s: I hope you can convince your former employer to reinstate you as author. You deserve it.

AN

I have to agree. The study I work for wouldn't exist if it wasn't for us RAs. In some ways we are one of the most important parts of our study because we are responsible for the collection of reliable data. I guess we are fortunate that is often acknowlegded by the head of our study.

 

[JSM]

Dreamer_D:

I was an RA at a major University for 20 years and I am glad my boss did not share your opinion on authorship for RAs. I have over 50 publications with my name on it and I was first author on the ones that I actually did most of the work and wrote. I don't see how getting paid has anything to do with it. Professors and postdocs get paid too. It's your contribution to the project that determines whether you are listed as author and how far down the list your name appears.

kama_s: I hope you can convince your former employer to reinstate you as author. You deserve it.

AN

I have to agree. The study I work for wouldn't exist if it wasn't for us RAs. In some ways we are one of the most important parts of our study because we are responsible for the collection of reliable data. I guess we are fortunate that is often acknowlegded by the head of our study.

Also agree. I'm an RA currently, but I am the ONLY one in the lab (me and my PI for the past year, and for a few more months). You better believe that if the next series of experiments work and we can publish this data, I will be first author. I do everything from washing dishes to performing, designing, and analyzing experiments. I may only have a Master's but I am making an intellectual contribution to the work, MY work. That contribution should determine authorship, and not your job title.

Kama, I agree that your name needs to be on that paper. Academia can be a tough world, though, because who can you appeal to if the director doesn't agree? Some of my grad work is going to be published soon, and I'm not sure if I will be on the paper or not. I hope things work out in your favor, because you should be acknowledged for your efforts.

 

[Callisto]

When I was in academia, RA's very commonly were on publications - this was medical research so as most people who have worked in that type of lab know, the RA is doing a lot of the bench work. Many labs had no grad students, just the post doc and an RA to all their work! There was a funny cartoon about it this somewhere...am going to see if I can find it - here! http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive.php?comicid=562.

That comic is pretty funny... and scarily accurate haha.

I know it's not the topic of this thread, but I also agree that RA's should be on papers if they've made significant contributions. Our grad students and post docs all get paid so you definitely can't use payment as a reason not to be put on a paper.

kama-Let us know how the talk goes today. I'm rooting for you!

 

[kama_s]

Thank you for the encouragement, ladies. So glad to have such a diverse crowd here on PS!

I spoke to my manager yesterday and he cited issues about me moving to another pharma, i.e. a pharma that was not sponsoring this study. Apparently this would cause some problems come time for signatures before the poster/publication.

Later I was thinking about this and realized two things:
1- I have published at this conference before and no signatures were required. Contracting is done electronically merely by inserting the author's details. I verified this and it hasn't since changed.
2- I also realized I would not 'technically' be working for this new pharma. I was hired as a consultant, and have my own company name and business numbers.

I went back to speak with my manager once again this morning and brought up the two above points. He said he would 'think about it'. Later in the afternoon I was making changes to the content of the abstract and noticed he went back and re- inserted my name. Without as much as a word to me. Eh, Kama is back on as author and has been doing a happy dance in her head all afternoon long!

Thank you, everyone, for your insight, comments and encouragement.

 

[katamari]

Glad to hear this, Kama! On my academic planet, it depends on whether or not you intellectually contribute to the project as an RA, and it sure sounds like you did this.

 

[kama_s]

Glad to hear this, Kama! On my academic planet, it depends on whether or not you intellectually contribute to the project as an RA, and it sure sounds like you did this.

Thanks, Kata! Most of the other authors contributed less than 10% and are included for 'networking' purposes, which is what pissed me off the most when my name was taken off considering I've done at the very minimum 75%.

I haven't seen you around PS in a while. How have you been? I've missed your posts!

 

[katamari]

Glad to hear this, Kama! On my academic planet, it depends on whether or not you intellectually contribute to the project as an RA, and it sure sounds like you did this.

Thanks, Kata! Most of the other authors contributed less than 10% and are included for 'networking' purposes, which is what pissed me off the most when my name was taken off considering I've done at the very minimum 75%.

I haven't seen you around PS in a while. How have you been? I've missed your posts!

Thanks, Kama! I have been BUSY! We are moving cross-country in two weeks. The moving trucks come this week and we went out for a week mid-month to find a place to live. We found a nice apartment, though, in an area I am very excited about (we went urban, fwiw).

 

[kama_s]

Thanks, Kama! I have been BUSY! We are moving cross-country in two weeks. The moving trucks come this week and we went out for a week mid-month to find a place to live. We found a nice apartment, though, in an area I am very excited about (we went urban, fwiw).

YES! We decided that on our front as well. Everytime I thought about moving to the 'burbs, I would feel incredibly claustrophobic. One of the main reasons for us moving would have been my job, but I have since quit and my new job is much closer to downtown. Even when I'm travelling between home and work, I feel an immense sense of relief when I get off the train. The feeling you get when you fly back into your country/city after being away for a long time....of finally being 'home'. I am caving in and getting a car though, so public transit and my bike will have to be retired.

I didn't know your move was right around the corner. It must be so stressful. Hope everything goes well and according to plan. Would love to know how you're liking the new city when you're all settled in!

 

[Callisto]

I was thinking about you today actually and was going to ask how everything went. I'm so glad you stood your ground! Especially since his reasons for not putting you on were so trivial. Glad to hear everything worked out, you deserve to be on that paper!

 

[Dreamer_D]

LOL! All the RA's are bringing out the guns aren't they

What fields are you all in? My practice is based on norms in the field of social psychology.

If I have an RA who makes a significant intellectual contribution then they are an author.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Thank you for the encouragement, ladies. So glad to have such a diverse crowd here on PS!

I spoke to my manager yesterday and he cited issues about me moving to another pharma, i.e. a pharma that was not sponsoring this study. Apparently this would cause some problems come time for signatures before the poster/publication.

Later I was thinking about this and realized two things:
1- I have published at this conference before and no signatures were required. Contracting is done electronically merely by inserting the author's details. I verified this and it hasn't since changed.
2- I also realized I would not 'technically' be working for this new pharma. I was hired as a consultant, and have my own company name and business numbers.

I went back to speak with my manager once again this morning and brought up the two above points. He said he would 'think about it'. Later in the afternoon I was making changes to the content of the abstract and noticed he went back and re- inserted my name. Without as much as a word to me. Eh, Kama is back on as author and has been doing a happy dance in her head all afternoon long!

Thank you, everyone, for your insight, comments and encouragement.

Great news Kama! And sorry about the thread jack