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A Perfect E-Ring..if it weren't for the diamond!(Cut Relatd)

isoe

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jul 1, 2012
Messages
11
First of all, THANK YOU to the PriceScope community. :)) As a whole you have educated me and guided me through the exhilarating (and potentially treacherous!) journey of choosing the perfect engagement ring. Without you, I would not have had a chance of giving my significant other what I hope to give her for the rest of our lives--my very best.

After countless hours on the forums, browsing jewelery stores, visiting merchant websites, and getting back on the forums for more research, I thought I had found "The One", the ring that I would propose to my girlfriend with. Out of respect for the jeweler (and in case my girlfriend happens to read this post!), it probably is not advisable for me to reveal too many details here, so I hope it suffices to say that "The One" is a pre-set ring from a well-established company that has made pieces for many princesses around the world.

Given the company's rich heritage, royal adornment, and reputation for extreme discretion in selecting stones, the last thing I thought I had to worry about was the diamond itself...yet, as it would turn out, I find everything about the ring to be perfect--everything except the diamond! ;( Specifications of the diamond in two otherwise identical rings are as follows:
-----Diamond #1 (GIA Rating): round brilliant, color E, clarity VVS2, cut grade Very Good (58% table, 62.9% depth, 35.5% crown angle, 41.2% pavilion angle, 55% star, 75% lower half, 4% girdle (medium to slightly thick), no culet), no fluorescence
-----Diamond #2 (GIA Rating): round brilliant, color E, clarity VVS2, cut grade Very Good (61% table, 58.8% depth, 32.5% crown angle, 40.4% pavilion angle, 50% star, 80% lower half, 4% girdle (slightly thick to thick), no culet), no fluorescence

I simply do not understand. Based on what I know, few (if any) in the trade would consider the light performance of these diamonds anything close to exemplary. GIA itself, even given its leniency in cut grading, does not rate these stones as Excellent cut. Nonetheless, the world-renowned jeweler has chosen these very stones to be centerpieces of engagement rings.

Is it that the jeweler has a secret set of cut proportions that falls outside of but actually performs better than what GIA believes is an Excellent cut? I would have thought this was an anomaly, but both diamonds examined were rated Very Good and not Excellent. It just does not make sense that the jeweler would choose such rare (i.e. color & clarity) diamonds only to settle for mediocre light performance (i.e. cut). I must be missing something, but I cannot for the life of me figure it out!

Please. Help! All comments, questions, or advice are fully welcome!


--Iohan

BTW, a very special thanks to Mr. Weingarten, aka "Rhino" for sharing his knowledge through his extremely educational website and videos!
 
Re: A Perfect E-Ring..if it weren't for the diamond!(Cut Rel

I find when I go to Tiffany's or Cartier or Harry Winston just to browse, the sales staff pushes color and clarity over cut. And I have seen many Very Good cut stones at these shops. (alot of white and bright stones..BIC) So it isn't that surprising to me, when discussing high end places with pre-set stones. You really have to be fussy when selecting your ring and not let them try to pass off Very Goods to you, if you want Excellent. I am sure they could get the ring with the already set stone with a better balance like, Excellent cut, G color VS1, and it would probably have a cheaper per carat price. You will need to go in, informed, and know that they can call in rings from other stores with better 4 C's. (I haven't seen any AGS 000 at any of these places) Your place probably isn't any of the ones I mentioned, but they were examples of places with pre-set stones in their rings. Most people they sell to aren't as selective as PS people are, and the rings sold there ARE pretty and sparkly, just not as sparkly as PS people get. Good luck with your engagement ring venture, I hope all turns out well for you.
 
Re: A Perfect E-Ring..if it weren't for the diamond!(Cut Rel

Yes, we have seen this many times on this site. Most of the big name jewelers do not carry many ideal cut rounds as compared to the vendors here that specialize in top quality diamonds. That is why I have a diamond from GOG set in a Tiffany replica setting. I have a potentially better diamond with the same look and lower price tag. But I do wear a Tiffany wedding band.

I believe I would tell the jeweler that you want a GIA excellent diamond set in their setting, but the only thing is, GIA Excellent is a broad category and there are some of those we wouldn't recommend. So that might be a problem because they probably don't use idealscopes, either. But I agree, there is almost no excuse for high end jewelers with big brand price premiums to use less than excellent cut.
 
Re: A Perfect E-Ring..if it weren't for the diamond!(Cut Rel

I would ask them to get you a GIA Ex/Ex within certain angle parameters. They can call around and see what they have in stock. If they have it, they can get it in. But-- some of these high stores are staffed by FABULOUS salespeople who understand that you are paying extra for customer service and will bend over backward to help you. Others are lazy snots who would rather condescend to you than provide you with good service. Whether or not you get what you want from the particular store you are working with depends largely on how good the manager and salesperson of the store you are dealing with are.
 
Re: A Perfect E-Ring..if it weren't for the diamond!(Cut Rel

Call the manager over.
Tell her/him you're willing to pay the premium for their brand but their cut criteria is behind the times.
GIA Excellent Cut includes lots of diamonds that leave something to be desired in the cut category.

If you are looking for a round them to find you a round that scores UNDER 2.0 on the HCA https://www.pricescope.com/tools/hca

Then tell them that since crown and pavilion angles are AVERAGES the under 2.0 HCA score is not enough; it must perform well with the Idealscope. https://www.pricescope.com/tools/ideal-scope

Compare your diamond to this chart to look for poor light performance.


If you are looking for any other shape than round, use an ASET scope to evaluate light performance.

http://www.ideal-scope.com/1.using_ASET_scope.asp


If they get all upset, pissy, condescending and haughty, walk.

idealscope_ref_0.png
 
Re: A Perfect E-Ring..if it weren't for the diamond!(Cut Rel

Thanks for all the helpful info, everyone! :appl:

It seems I'm not crazy after all for wondering why guild jewelers would risk their hard-earned reputations by using anything but the best cut diamonds. I can see how rarity in color and clarity--the C's they do promote--have intrinsic value, but I'm guessing rarity isn't the first quality that comes to mind when ladies compare their rings/diamonds... "Yes susan, your diamond is larger and sparklier, but...but my diamond is rarer!" :lol: Yea, she would kill me. sigh....

So, in order to avoid the world's shortest engagement (and an untimely demise), I guess I'll have to talk with the SA's. Other than the minimum requirement of a GIA Excellent Cut, what specifications should I ask them to filter their inventory with? I'm not sure if the SA's are familiar with HCA; in case they are not, I hope to make it as easy as possible for them to pare down inventory to a list of final contenders, which I will report back to Rocky Talky for more expert advice!

hearts-arrows_girl
-----Thanks for the encouragement, especially since I'm browsing in SoCal as well. Curious, did you find any preference to the boutiques in Beverly Hills vs. Costa Mesa? Lol If fussy is what it takes... :devil:

diamondseeker2006
-----Your advice is absolutely golden! "...it will bother you to end up with VG cut when you know that you'd rather have excellent. It is much easier to do this right the first time than have regrets later." If only I lived a bit closer to GOG it would be so much easier... I'm on the wrong coast! :knockout:

gypsy
-----When you state GIA Ex/Ex, does that mean Cut and Symmetry? (not polish?) Which angle parameters would you suggest? :read:

kenny
-----Very succinct, and I'll have to agree, their cut criteria is behind the times, indeed! I hope it doesn't come down to it, but if worst comes to worst, I won't have to ask myself twice, "What would kenny do?" ;))

--Iohan
 
Re: A Perfect E-Ring..if it weren't for the diamond!(Cut Rel

Well, you don't have to live near a vendor who sells superideal cut diamonds to get one! I certainly live far away from all of them, yet I have ring and earring diamonds from both Good Old Gold and WhiteFlash. So do not let the distance bother you if you'd consider not going with a major brand.

If I were going into Tiffany's, Cartier, HW, etc., here is what I would hand them for diamond requirements:

GIA Excellent cut, polish, and symmetry

table: 54-58

depth: 60-62.3

crown angle: 34.0-35.0

pavilion angle: 40.6-41.0

girdle: thin, medium, slighly thick (or combination of those)

There are good diamonds outside that range, but these will generally get you a diamond that would fall into the AGS Ideal cut parameters. You have to give them something, so these are your best bet, in my opinion. Please come back and tell us how it goes!
 
Re: A Perfect E-Ring..if it weren't for the diamond!(Cut Rel

What carat weight are you looking at? If you are looking near or above the 2ct mark, it gets much tougher and much more expensive to get super-ideal proportions in a large diamond, because cutters are striving to retain weight. Some of the "very good" or premium cut diamonds are very pretty. If it were a tradeoff between VG/premium and size, vs. smaller buy ideal. I might decide that VG/ premium is good enough for me. A shallow / head obstruction / "pendant stone" at the 58% - 60% depth might also be acceptable to get a large diamond, because most other people are going to be seeing it at a distance that's head obstruction is certainly not a problem. If I am going to stare it it all day, and it were my first / only diamond, them maybe I'd not choose a head obstruction shallower diamond.

Tradeoffs are the kind of thing that are personal, so you need to know what the recipient is willing to trade off, or whether the recipient will accept nothing less than high color, totally eye-clean at 2", AND super-ideal cut.


I simply do not understand. Based on what I know, few (if any) in the trade would consider the light performance of these diamonds anything close to exemplary.

Yes, and VG/ premium might not be evident until / unless you have that diamond side-by-side with a super-ideal cut. Marketing is marketing. You get to buy whatever performance is sufficient for you.
 
Re: A Perfect E-Ring..if it weren't for the diamond!(Cut Rel

isoe|1341403310|3228450 said:
Thanks for all the helpful info, everyone! :appl:

hearts-arrows_girl
-----Thanks for the encouragement, especially since I'm browsing in SoCal as well. Curious, did you find any preference to the boutiques in Beverly Hills vs. Costa Mesa? Lol If fussy is what it takes... :devil:

--Iohan
I went to all three stores I mentioned in Beverly Hills. All three were a little surprised when I mentioned cut specifics, and none of them could really chime in, it seemed they kinda thought I was a little crazy for caring about the paperwork. I visit these stores in Las Vegas, too. Usually at Bellagio or Ceasars. Same thing there too, but since I was only browsing, I never asked it they would call in stones. I can tell you from experience, when you bust out the HCA and Idealscope, B/M's try to discount the usefulness, so stick to your guns and just say, "well whether you think they work or not, I will be using these to pick my stone". (With all the money you will be spending, they shouldn't care if you stand on your heard and whistle, to decide.) I've never been to the Costa Mesa stores.

I can't wait to hear your next shopping experience when you go in fully ready to select a great stone. Have fun with it, and if you get a SA that really fights you wanting to be selective, then just change SA's. Also, there is no guarantee that because someone is a manager, they will have any more knowledge, so don't let a job title convince you they know more. They just may be better at closing a deal. Keep asking different people questions and see who can give you the answers you deserve.
 
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