Afraid that my diamond was swapped. Different stats on 2 appraisals.

[spyvsspy]

Back story: My mother gave me her old engagement ring (see original appraisal from 1970) and my now fiancee used it to propose to me (how I feel about this is a whole different story for another time). I was under the impression that he would do his research and find a strong, reputable jeweler and appraiser. He ended up going to a mom and pop jeweler near his work and they sent out the ring for appraisal.

Pricescope has been so helpful in helping me understand the 4Cs, and I have concerns regarding the second appraisal (and the lack of consistency between the two). I know that a lot has changed since the 1970s, but still - there are serious issues... For example, no grading system that I know of has a cut category of 'medium'. Also, the carat weight is different between the two appraisals as is the clarity.

My mother told me that she wore the ring for 1 year and then it was in a safety deposit box until she gave it to me. Even when she took it to a jeweler for cleaning, it was never out of her sight. So, did my fiancee's jeweler (who sized the ring) or Gemtech switch the diamond? Why are the stats so different?

Also, if they did switch the diamond, what is my recourse? Or, is it a matter of 'he said, she said'?
I really look forward to your advice. I also appreciate that 'rocky talky' may be the wrong forum for this question.

 

[lovedogs]

The issue here is the appraisals aren't GIA/AGS reports. So no, there's no such thing as "medium" cut on a reputable lab report of a diamond. But since this is just a random appraiser, you won't get the type of info you want in terms of cut quality. Appraisal is really only useful for insurance purposes, not for getting details about the ring or stone.

 

[Lykame]

Hi!

You also do need to remember that it looks like both appraisals were done with the diamonds already set in the mounting. It's going to be really difficult to accurately assess the exact weights etc. Also appraisals like this will be much more subjective, and are over-inflated, usually for insurance purposes.

I can't really believe that your stones will have been swapped out - they would have had to have found ones that fit into the same setting, bent the prongs, put them back, and I'm just not sure what that's worth to them to go through that whole process - for what? Unless the stone is replaced with CZ or something - what's the point?

I hope that helps at least somewhat.

 

[bludiva]

Can't read the stats in the first photo but if it was appraised mounted the result could be different. If you want an authoritative appraisal you could unmount the center Stone and send to GIA.

 

[mrs-b]

As @Lykame said above - if the stone was appraised in the mounting, the carat weight on the stone can only be a guess. For what it's worth, I had a stone appraised in a setting by a very reputable appraiser. When the stone was removed from the setting and re-appraised, the first appraiser was wrong by over 10%.

Appraising a mounted stone will always be, at best, an educated guess.

 

[spyvsspy]

Thanks everyone, I feel much better.
Just to clarify, the first appraisal was completed by the jeweler who made the ring, so everything was assessed pre-mounting.

 

[Lykame]

Thanks everyone, I feel much better.
Just to clarify, the first appraisal was completed by the jeweler who made the ring, so everything was assessed pre-mounting.

Okay! What we have said still stands - as it was an appraisal by a jeweller who was not independent (as they were selling the ring), you might be able to trust the weights of the stones in the original appraisal but the rest of the appraisal will again be subjective. It's not the same as sending the stones to a lab like the GIA or AGS. And the new appraisal will have been mounted - it's very difficult to tell exact weights of mounted stones. And colour and clarity grading, especially of mounted stones, is so subjective.

I would not worry about any swapping of the stones based on these two appraisals, and it's a beautiful ring. I hope your feelings on the proposal, whatever they are/were, are sorted soon...??????

 

[MollyMalone]

Thanks everyone, I feel much better.
Just to clarify, the first appraisal was completed by the jeweler who made the ring, so everything was assessed pre-mounting.

Oh my, if that's the case, that jeweler was regrettably more sloppy than I was thinking. In the top, upper right-hand corner of the 1970 appraisal, it notes "these estimated replacement costs are based only on estimates of the quality of the stones unless specifically stated that the stones were removed [emphasis added]." The report, however, doesn't declare that the jeweler's assessment was based on the stones when loose; indeed, he/she expressly qualifies each of the carat weights as "est. wt." Nor did the jeweler bother providing the dimensions of even the center stone. So it's a good thing that your mother never had to wrangle with an insurance company over loss of/damage to that ring!

(I'm guessing A was intended to be a color grade, but who knows what "scale" the jeweler was using for that: A would be the top of, say, an A - F color classifying system, but the bottom rung of an A, AA, AAA system. GIA started using what's familiar to us starting with its reports in the mid-1950's.)

 

[Bron357]

I doubt the diamond has been swapped. It requires the prongs to be bent out and often remade as you cant be bending and rebending prongs without needing a retip or remake.
There is a huge difference between an “appraisal” and a “lab report”.
An appraisal is just some persons opinion based on what they think they see and it’s done with the diamond mounted. And you don’t know what level of expertise they have or the equipment they have used for testing. For eg very few local appraisers will have a reference set of diamonds for assessing colour. A lab report is the “gold standard”, they use the latest and most accurate equipment and assess the diamond unmounted. They also never give a $$$ value.
Seeing as both “appraisals” are done with the diamond still set in the ring both are only “estimations” of colour and carat weight.
The first appraisal of carat weight, over 50 years old, doesn’t even provide dimensions so you have no way of knowing how they determined that estimate.
50 years ago I doubt they had electronic gauges, accurate to like .001 of a mm, probably used a metal gauge using their eye to decide the measurement.
The second appraisal of carat weight is done by using measurements, more accurate than the first, but still, a proper assessment can only be done with the diamond unmounted and by a gem lab ie GIA.
So all in all, I feel that the diamond is the same.

 

[whitewave]

Back in 1993, our jeweler sold us a diamond they said was a d color. The written informal appraisal said it was H color.

I went and had it appraised last year and it is again a d color diamond.

The jeweler made a mistake.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

All the answers are spot on
I doubt based on very sloppy work earlier and not much better later that you have any issues.

WARNING
the appraisers listed on PS are ones we know to be a cut above. If anyone has a bad experience with any on the list - please let us know

 

[oldminer]

My own 1970's appraisals are a sight to behold compared to today's appraisal work. We used to use a Moh Gauge to measure diamonds... I doubt many prosumers know what that even was. My father had a Leveridge gauge, but it was not nearly as accurate as the newer digital tools. Diamond color grading often was still unknown lettering or traditional word grading for color. GIA was doing good work, but was not widely established as it is now. Everyone has better knowledge now, but I doubt you have had a switched diamond. The terminology and accuracy has undergone a quantum switch over these past 50 years that has made a major change in the diamond world. Seeing old paperwork is sort of scary!!

 

[Karl_K]

Found the Leveridge gauge but not the moh guage.

 

[tkyasx78]

I don't see any issues with the differences. Neither of those appraisals are ones that I would trust to be spot on.

If you want an accurate assessment of the diamond, have it sent to GIA or AGS. All the other labs are just not stringent enough to get an accurate report with the details you will want.

I doubt anyone switched your diamond. I would recommend having it taken out and sent in to a reputable lab, either AGS or GIA.

 

[ccuheartnurse]

How is it that a graduate gemologist from GIA write "medium" as a cut grade. Maybe the stone has medium flouro but no matter, it should have been listed on the report as a separate catagory. Are you in Montreal & the jeweller there mailed it to Toronto for an appraisal? If you are local, I suggest Harold Weinstein at 55 Queen Street. A couple blocks south of Dundas Sq.& 2 East. The office is across from St.Mike's hosp & there's a Green P lot there as well. There might be other suggestions for appraisers in TO but I'm only familiar with either Gemscam (awful-do not use them) or HW. If the stone isn't removed, you will still have estimates on your report but I think you'll have a more accurate report by going with HW. There is no way to know if the stone was switched because the original appraisal did not have any measurements. I know it happens but I think the likelihood of it happening are slim. The $27,000 retail replacement value is overinflated which only benefits the insurance company. I would take it for another appraisal (try this 1st) or consider shipping the stone to GIA for grading. If you do have to remove the stone, be present when it gets removed that it's given to you & only you. When you need to reset it, do the same thing, be on site when they do. You'll have peace of mind especially after having been worried about it.

 

[david b]

I agree with the above. Appraisals done on set diamonds are esmations only. To get actual report you will need to un mount the diamonds

 

[spyvsspy]

Thanks everyone - I really do appreciate the added detail!
The original appraisal was completed by Mr. Mappins in Montreal (of Mappins Jewelers - huge chain here that began with his single store in Montreal). I'm living in Toronto and will definitely visit Harold Weinstein for a second appraisal. I also thought that the $27,000 CDN value was grossly inflated (seeing as a similar spec. diamond would cost $8,000 CDN on James Allen). My fiancee is paying $500/year CDN to insure the ring - which again, seems high...

 

[lovedogs]

Thanks everyone - I really do appreciate the added detail!
The original appraisal was completed by Mr. Mappins in Montreal (of Mappins Jewelers - huge chain here that began with his single store in Montreal). I'm living in Toronto and will definitely visit Harold Weinstein for a second appraisal. I also thought that the $27,000 CDN value was grossly inflated (seeing as a similar spec. diamond would cost $8,000 CDN on James Allen). My fiancee is paying $500/year CDN to insure the ring - which again, seems high...

That's extremely high! I'm paying $200 a year to insure a piece that was appraised for $9500. Get an appraisal from a trustworthy buisiness and tell them it's for insurance so they don't needlessly inflate.

 

[kmoro]

The appraiser that I saw years ago said that values for insurance purposes are generally 1.6 x the actual market value. Premiums are inflated this way by being based on a higher “replacement value” but at least the insured will get enough to replace the item if something happens.

 

[tkyasx78]

you are way way over paying for that insurance. Have the stone sent to GIA or AGS and then you will have an idea of what it needs to be insured for. You will want to compare apples to apples so to speak.

 

[denverappraiser]

In terms of the recent appraisal, the first step is to ask the appraiser what scales she’s using. You may also want to ask about that value conclusion (discussed above). It seems high given the description. The old appraisal has a similar issue but it’s hard to ask the author even if it's listed somewhere else on the document. They're probably retired. ‘A_V.S.1.’ is not from a scale I’m familiar with.

The difference in carat weight, 1.18 vs 1.25cts, is entirely within the margin of error for the estimates. It's not clear that either one actually weighed the stone(s), even if they had the opportunity to do so. #1 SAYS it's an estimate, and #2 should be able to tell you if you ask. Her contact information is at the bottom. Ring her up. That's why it's there.

I see no evidence of stone switching here but start by talking with the appraiser.