5.19 ct yellow oval - advice please!

[Dee*Jay]

Before I even begin this post let me say that yes, I do have some of our beloved PS vendors working diligently to help me find a yellow, and two of them have stones that I either have seen or soon will see photos of, but I have stumbled across a diamond in person virtually by accident that I need some advice on. Here are my questions/concerns:

The stone comes with an EGL USA "Gem ID Card" that says the stone was "graded as mounting permits." There is additional information available on line though that gives the depth and table -- are those numbers "estimates" since the stone was mounted or are those the "real" numbers from before the stone was mounted?

Along the same lines, of course I would prefer a GIA cert, but this stone simply does not have one. I recall reading somewhere (although of course I cannot find the thread now) that EGL actually does an OK job with fancy colored stones.

The jeweler will only sell me the whole ring, he will not sell the loose stone. His contention is that that stone looks much better in the mounting than it would out due to the yellow gold "cup" (?) underneath and he doesn't want to dismantle the ring only to have me change my mind once the stone is out. I said that I would have the whole thing redone anyway because I do not like the mounting, but he said that "only he knows how to set this stone so it appears this beautiful."

Putting the ridiculousness of that statement aside, should I be worried that he's hiding something by virtue of not being willing to take the stone out of the mounting? Maybe I am just too suspicious by nature...

Another concern (and I can't believe *I* am even saying this!): it might be too big. The dimensions are 12.8 X 9.2. Even taking it out of the halo that it's in (!!!) it's is still... well... big. Now here is a question I know none of you can answer, but I'm going to ask anyway. Do you think it might be *too big*? I think I would reset it with some small half moon side stones and no halo so it wouldn't be as "cha cha" as it is now, but still... ?

Here is the info from the cert:

5.19 ct
Oval Brilliant
Fancy Yellow
VS1-VS2
12.8 X 9.2 X 5.65
61.4 Depth
54 Table
N/A Crown
N/A Pavilion
Medium to Very Thick Faceted Girdle
Very Good Polish
Good Symmetry
None - Fluorescence
None - Culet

 

[Harriet]

No, not too big.

I'm not trying to be Negative Nelly here, but is the jeweller trying to make a less saturated stone appear more saturated by leaving it in its YG mounting? Note that the cert says "Fancy Yellow," but not intense, vivid or deep.

 

[Dee*Jay]

Date: 6/6/2008 5:18:47 PM
Author: Harriet
No, not too big.

I'm not trying to be Negative Nelly here, but is the jeweller trying to make a less saturated stone appear mroe saturated by leaving it in its YG mounting? Note that the cert says 'Fancy Yellow,' but not intense, vivid or deep.

I'm OK with the yellow gold cup helping the color (I could easily have it reset with another "cup", and I actually see this commonly with yellow stones) but does it sound like there's something more here?

And thank you for the "not too big" vote!

 

[angel_nieves]

I wish I could help you. However I kind of find it hinky that the jeweler would not remove the diamond for lose sell. Could he be hiding that the colour is intensified by the gold underneath?

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 6/6/2008 5:13:50 PM

The jeweler will only sell me the whole ring, he will not sell the loose stone. His contention is that that stone looks much better in the mounting than it would out due to the yellow gold 'cup' (?) underneath and he doesn't want to dismantle the ring only to have me change my mind once the stone is out. I said that I would have the whole thing redone anyway because I do not like the mounting, but he said that 'only he knows how to set this stone so it appears this beautiful.'

Putting the ridiculousness of that statement aside, should I be worried that he's hiding something by virtue of not being willing to take the stone out of the mounting? Maybe I am just too suspicious by nature...

Dee, the above highlighted statement is a huge flag for me, personally I would pass as that statement alone would put me right off. As you know, fancy colours are a whole different kettle of fish, and I can imagine this stone costs a pretty penny - I bet he wouldn't agree to making the sale final on an appraisal, which would be a must for me in view of the circumstances.

But I certainly think the size is fine!

 

[Linda W]

Ha.. nothing really, just the usual. They really don''t know what it is. Just ask "what is that"??? I''ll say a Padparadscha Sapphire and then come the questions, what is that? I thought sapphires only come in blue, blah blah blah.

 

[777_LDY]

Say you purchased the ring, had the stone appraised out of the setting and it came back way off. What do you think the jeweller would do? Would he stand by the certificate?

 

[Dee*Jay]

Macie, I think the cup does intensify the color. But here is a pic that I found on Leon''s site and it looks like there is a small gold cup under this stone too, yes? (For some reason I can''t post the pic, but here is a link: link.)

Lorelei, my favorite appraiser is in the same building and I would definitely take it to her before I committed. His statement doesn''t sit well with me though, however I wonder if it was arrogance talking--he imagines himself to be quite the master jeweler.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 6/6/2008 5:38:23 PM
Author: Dee*Jay
Macie, I think the cup does intensify the color. But here is a pic that I found on Leon's site and it looks like there is a small gold cup under this stone too, yes? (For some reason I can't post the pic, but here is a link: link.)

Lorelei, my favorite appraiser is in the same building and I would definitely take it to her before I committed. His statement doesn't sit well with me though, however I wonder if it was arrogance talking--he imagines himself to be quite the master jeweler.

If you can do that with your appraiser then that makes a difference. It could be arrogance, so hard to tell whether it is, or whether he is trying to hide something, but I think it is absolutely right to be careful with a purchase of this magnitude. See if he will let you have the appraiser look at it before commiting, if he says no then the decision is easy!

One thing I am not sure on though, is why the diamond doesn't have a full EGL report, maybe one of the experts can advise.

 

[canuk-gal]

HI:

There are degrees of fancy yellow, no? In the setting hard to say where it would fall on the linear scale (e.g. closer to light yellow ...), if graded loose and by GIA. That aside, when I got my new watch I tried on a 4 carat natural fancy yellow oval with a diamond halo and it was devine. Not too small. Neither was the 5.01 oval white set in a micropave setting. I could have had either in a heartbeat. NOT too large at all--but my size 6ish hands can handle it.

.

(btw, there is a fantastic ring on the RWWise website, a large square natural yellow that is set in y/g and the setting is shaped such that it looks like a "mirror" and certainly enhances the overall yellowiness of the stone...IMHO).

cheers--Sharon

 

[Brilyant]

Ummm... I don''t know what others may say or think, but that''s a HUGE stone by any standards of wealth and size, so if you''re wondering whether it will wear/look/scream big... well, it will. Just a thought.

 

[Dee*Jay]

Let me clarify something -- I am OK with the yellow cup enhancing the yellowness of the stone. I think that is a setting element that is commonly employed with yellow diamonds and I don''t have a problem with it. Just wanted to make sure no one thought that I felt I might be being "tricked" in some way.

Brilyant, thank you for your opinion on the size. I don''t want to look ridiculous -- like a child who''s gotten into her mother''s jewel box -- so I am grateful for all advice I can get on the size issue.

Sharon, OK, WHERE is this thing? I can''t find it on the RWWise site?

777, I don''t know... I think he *has* to -- but what that means from a practical standpoint I''m not sure.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Dee Jay, it probably will look in proportion to your other ring once it is out of the setting, so it''s probably not too big for you! However, I''d never buy any diamond without a return policy. Been there, done that. I wouldn''t even consider it if you can''t have it independently appraised out of that setting. The Leon setting you linked had a yellow gold basket and prongs.

 

[canuk-gal]

Date: 6/6/2008 5:47:06 PM
Author: canuk-gal

(btw, there is a fantastic ring on the RWWise website, a large square natural yellow that is set in y/g and the setting is shaped such that it looks like a ''mirror'' and certainly enhances the overall yellowiness of the stone...IMHO).cheers--Sharon

HI:

OK I own to have been misttaken--the ring is white gold! (but are the insides yellow??).. Go to his site and view designers Douglas Carivet (sp). The stone is a vivid or intense...but see what I mean about the reflection??

cheers--Sharon

 

[Ellen]

Date: 6/6/2008 6:03:16 PM
Author: Dee*Jay

Brilyant, thank you for your opinion on the size. I don''t want to look ridiculous -- like a child who''s gotten into her mother''s jewel box -- so I am grateful for all advice I can get on the size issue.

Considering that''s the exact main reason I had my Aqua recut (mine was even longer though), well, I think you can guess what I''d say, so I won''t.

I agree that I would only consider that stone after a good look from your appraiser. As for the jewelers comment, I''ve heard a lot. It wouldn''t surprise me if it was just arrogance speaking, but, one never knows.

 

[purrfectpear]

I think it "sounds" bigger than it will actually look. My pear is over 12mm long (of course it''s not nearly as wide as 9 mm) and I can''t imagine that a little width on this stone is suddenly going to make it look like a ring pop?

I wouldn''t worry about the size myself. When it starts looking like Liz Taylor''s old ring, then it''s too big

I think he just doesn''t want you to see it unmounted because it''s paler than it looks. Since that''s OK with you, go ahead and have your appraiser give it a look.

 

[dkodner]

DeeJay,

I think you have the right mindset in looking at this ring, from the sense of wanting to get the most appealing look out of the stone. I would not be bothered by it having the yellow cup underneath, as I am sure it does indeed make the ring look better. However, there is some real value issues with what you describe about this stone. There are a tremendous amount of low color (T-Z) stones on the market that are being mounted and sent to a lab like EGL to get a "faceup, mounted" grade of fancy yellow. The cup makes it look fancy yellow, so that is the grade they give it. This is a fraud in my opinion, not by the lab, but by the jeweler or manufacturer who presents it to the lab, and the fact that the jeweler would not unmount the ring is pretty good evidence to that fact. From your description, no lab has seen the stone outside of the mounting. The likelihood of you removing the stone one day and finding out it is not even fancy light yellow by GIA standards is high. Now it may be that the price of the ring is fair for what the ring is, but I would use great caution in buying something like this. It may not, well probably not, have anywhere near the value you are paying if you went to sell it in a few years. One of the nice things about a large natural colored diamonds is there is a market for them later where you may actually make a profit. But not on bluffy stones, they are always hard to sell, no matter what size. Buying a smaller true fancy yellow is a much better value than a big bluffy ring. Now all of that being said, if you love the ring, and you are okay with the price, then go for it and enjoy, but do not buy it if you think it will have value in the future. Just my 2 pennies, hope it helps.

D

 

[Catmom]

DJ, I can''t believe that it was graded while mounted. That is very suspicious to me in and of itself. I would definitely worry if he won''t let you have it unmounted.

 

[Dee*Jay]

Ellen,

PP, You might be right about the size. My round stone is 9.65 X 9.70 in a halo that probably add 1.3 all around, so the length might not be much different even though it looks longer because of the shape.

dkodner, you raise many interesting points. I think I will tell the jewler that I will consider the stone further only if he is willing to let me take it to the appraiser loose. I'm not even asking for it to go to GIA (or EGL for that matter), but rather to simply get an opinion from someone who is knowledgeable in these things. HOWEVER, if he does unmount the stone for me to take to the appraiser and I decide not to purchase it based on what she says, I think it would be fair for me to offer to pay some sort of resetting fee... yes? BTW, I think one of the big reasons he might not be willing to take it out is sheer laziness. I hate to say it, but there are lots of lazy jewelers out there and they often avoid things out of the sheer hassle it might cause them. (Sorry -- went off on a tangent there!)

Catmom, I'm definitely not happy about that.

 

[kelpie]

I think the jeweler is trying to play hardball. You should be firm with him that however promising the stone looks when set, you will not consider buying a ring of that value unless you have have the stone removed to be appraised. Remember what they say about the customer always being right. This isn''t chump change, you deserve full service from this guy. There aren''t many people in the market for that kind of stone, so if you can show him your interest is sincere, I''ll bet you can use your cunningness to convince him to remove it for appraisal.

 

[Sharon101]

Date: 6/6/2008 8:27:12 PM
Author: kelpie
I think the jeweler is trying to play hardball. You should be firm with him that however promising the stone looks when set, you will not consider buying a ring of that value unless you have have the stone removed to be appraised. Remember what they say about the customer always being right. This isn''t chump change, you deserve full service from this guy. There aren''t many people in the market for that kind of stone, so if you can show him your interest is sincere, I''ll bet you can use your cunningness to convince him to remove it for appraisal.

I have a few things to say. A diamond in that size is in demand whether its fancy yellow or just not white. Its more than likely that the jeweller knows he can sell it easily and that it is a hassle to dismantle it etc. Im also sure that the yellow basket is helping, but it cant perform miricles either.

When my h. was looking for a diamond for me he came across every type of buying situation as he is in the jewellery trade himself. So every so often for a year I would get to road test something or other. More often than not the diamonds were set and had to be bought that way obviously because it makes most diamonds look better when set.

If we really wanted to inspect the diamond we just paid to have the diamond taken out and then put back.

Once we wanted a diamond that was all set in a yellow basket to make it look more yellow. When we removed it, the diamond looked much the same.

Now unless you have an unlimited budget of course you are not going to get a 5 carat diamond with all the other c`s being amazing. The price would be astronomical.

In the real world people do see the size and the beauty of the setting. No one is going to spend a second analysing if the color is yellow enough etc. Really big diamonds are getting harder to find, let alone in a price bracket that it affordable. I would analyse it too for how amazing it looks set as much as the specs on paper.

I know if I saw some hand with a 5 carat yellow diamond with a halo my eyes would be glued to that hand!!!! Theres no way I would be thinking its not yellow enough etc. Because after all, Im not expecting to see a qtr mill. stone, and I know anything in the large carats cost enough even without perfect specs.

 

[Dancing Fire]

i don''t know DJ

IMO....you''re taking a big chance w/o a GIA color report.

 

[Dee*Jay]

So I've spent the past several hours thinking and I think I've figured out the crux of my problem: I want to buy a loose stone, but I also want to know what the stone is going to look like when it's set. I really do have a hard time envisioning what a loose yellow will look like when it's mounted. For instance, one of the PS vendors has a stone for me right now that I am pretty much on board with, but there are areas along the long sides (it is a rectangular radiant) that I'm afraid might be blank/dark and there is no way to tell that until the stone is set. And by then it's too late because I own it. So short of buying a stone that's set and having it unmounted I'm not sure how to get around this problem.

About the question, what would this stone be called if it was sent to GIA... I am not sure that I really care. It is a yellow stone--what degree of yellow I don't know, and it probably does look "better" than it really is because of the yellow cup. But I am not really bothered by that because, well, I would have it set in a yellow cup. But to take this a bit further, one of the other stones I'm considering is labeled a fancy light yellow on the GIA cert. But what if it went back to GIA and was deemed a fancy yellow? Or go the other way and make it a Y-Z? It wouldn't be any more or less attractive. The age old question of a rose by any other name...

As for the numeric specs; one of the first things that people told me when I started looking into yellow stones is that the numbers aren't as important as they are for a colorless stone. That being said, just from a sheerly academic standpoint I think it would be interesting to have a sarin/asset/IS on the stone that I buy, but I am wearing the diamond and not the paper, so if it's pleasing to my eye and the numbers aren't patently absurd then I am letting go of that part.

Finally, I think I am justified in not wanting to over pay for this--or any--stone, regardless of what it is. But that problem should be alleviated by the opinion of an independent appraiser, no? I mean, if I took her the loose stone and she gave on opinion of what it was worth based on her anayysis of what it was, then I am comfortable with that. Am I making any sense here? The point is I want to know what she feels is a reasonable price to pay based on her assessment of the stone, regardless of what color that turns out to be. So even if she said the stone I ultimately choose is an S-T that is receiving some sort of miracle transfusion of color due to the gold cup and it should reasonably sell for $$$, as long as I'm not paying more than $$$ that is OK in my opinion. (But obviously I don't want to pay for a color label that I'm not getting, at any level.)

Wow, that's a lot of mulling! This board is great. Not only do I learn so much from it, but it gives me an opportunity to think things through and get feedback (before I do something stupidly expensive -- or expensively stupid!). I do not yet know what I'm going to do at this point so please keep the information and opinions coming.

 

[Kaleigh]

Dee,
At this point I''d take it to your appriaiser and she what she has to say about it. Yes it will be mounted, and harder to grade, but she''s got the experience to know if there is a red flag. Wishing you all the best going forward. Not loving what your jeweler had to say, is it arrogance, who knows. But really want to know what the appriaser has to say....

 

[jewelerman]

Dee-jay,
I would see red flags in this situation.Even though the stone has nice proportions i dont care for a stone that has a very thick girdle(just my thing).

 

[Dee*Jay]

Date: 6/7/2008 12:10:32 AM
Author: jewelerman
Dee-jay,
I would see red flags in this situation.Even though the stone has nice proportions i dont care for a stone that has a very thick girdle(just my thing).

That''s interesting. For some reason I thought a thick to extremely thick girdle was a common feature on fancy colored stones because it can enhance the appearance/intensity of the color. I will have to go search through the threads and see where I came up with that idea.

 

[Phoenix]

DJ, I don''t know anything abt the girdle thickness being an issue, but I''d just like to answer some of yr Qs: I do not think it is too big at all. Yes, I would have it appraised, even in the setting (preferably I would have it appraised loose, but the appraisal in the setting is better than none and I would think would at least give me some peace of mind). I woudn''t worry abt the yellow cup, cos as you said most FY''s are set in a setting with some YG setting underneath to enhance the colour.

Good luck. It sounds like an awesome project.

 

[elmo]

DeeJay, for something like this you want a GIA report first and an appraisal second. The appraisal shouldn't take the place of the GIA report. There are a couple of reasons. First, unlike colorless stones, I don't think even the best appraisers have GIA-graded master stones for color grading. So someone can give you an educated opinion about how this faces up but it won't be the same as formally color grading the stone. Especially with the stone mounted. The GIA effectively has a monopoly on colored diamond grading, and the report is pretty much expected on something like this unless there's some sort of issue. Second, and I think this is at least as important as the color grade, I'd want the GIA to determine whether the stone has been enhanced in any way. No appraiser has the equipment to make this determination, and the GIA is the best resource for this.

dkodner said this much better than I could, you want to protect the value of your purchase...a missed color grade or some sort of color enhancement will affect value far more than let's say getting an I-SI1 instead of H-VS2.

 

[Ellen]

Date: 6/7/2008 12:17:51 AM
Author: Dee*Jay

Date: 6/7/2008 12:10:32 AM
Author: jewelerman
Dee-jay,
I would see red flags in this situation.Even though the stone has nice proportions i dont care for a stone that has a very thick girdle(just my thing).

That''s interesting. For some reason I thought a thick to extremely thick girdle was a common feature on fancy colored stones because it can enhance the appearance/intensity of the color. I will have to go search through the threads and see where I came up with that idea.

Dee, I kinda thought the same thing, so I went searching. This was the first thread that popped up, and confirmes what we thought. (there''s more threads but I didn''t go through them) See Giangi''s second post.

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/yellow-diamond-help.17283/

"Thick girdles and pavilions, steep crowns and different facets placement are all tricks played by the cutter to put in evidence the color"

 

[elmo]

The girdle doesn't bother me on a fancy color diamond unless there's a durability problem (which isn't the case here) or unless the stone faces up distinctly small as a result. That's the sort of questions I'd ask an appraiser

, i.e. what range of size to expect for a well-made oval of that weight and length/width ratio. But I pulled up all 5 carat D-Z ovals here and these dimensions seem to be in the expected range.