shape
carat
color
clarity

4 Year-Old Accidentally Shot By Police Officer in Columbus

AGBF

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 26, 2003
Messages
22,011
My daughter, who follows crime stories, told me about this last night. I looked it up this morning because I found it hard to believe. It really appears to be true in the way she told it to me. The policeman apparently entered the home of the people who called for help, met a protective dog (a mutt, not a pit bull or exotic killer breed), and despite being big and having other items like a taser and baton at his disposal-he was not bitten-and without a thorough survey of the premises-attempted to shoot the dog.

Instead he shot the family's 4 year-old daughter.

As one person responding wrote, her husband is a mail carrier and encounters barking dogs all day. He has never shot one.

I have pepper spray even though Griffin is 147 pounds and should be able to defend himself, because he is so gentle. If he is attacked on one of our walks, I want to be ready. But a gun in someone's home?

Link...http://www.10tv.com/content/stories/2015/06/19/whitehall-ohio-4-year-old-accidentially-shot-by-columbus-police-officer.html

AGBF
 

OreoRosies86

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Dec 25, 2012
Messages
3,344
Re: 4 Year-Old Accidentally Shot By Police Officer in Columb

I know it isn't ALL police officers. I know most are good and do good work that is dangerous. But when I hear every day about the ones who shoot first and ask questions later it rattles me in a pretty extreme way.
 

Bayek

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
May 11, 2013
Messages
7,502
Re: 4 Year-Old Accidentally Shot By Police Officer in Columb

Worrisome, our cops should be in act mode, not react.. pepper spray... I think all police officers should have at least training in de-esculation not esculating a problem.. bring down, don't make it worse...
 

momhappy

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Mar 3, 2013
Messages
4,660
Re: 4 Year-Old Accidentally Shot By Police Officer in Columb

The officer was responding to another call in the neighborhood (a hit and run I believe) when he heard cries for help in another home. He walked up to the front door help and was charged by the two dogs that the family owned. He shot the dog to protect himself and the bullet hit a 4 year-old in the leg who was standing in the doorway. It was unclear if the bullet hit her directly or was a result of ricochet. I don't know what police protocol is for encountering a dog (in "attack" mode). Clearly, he made a mistake, but human error happens in every job - some with more serious consequences than others. You would think that he could have defended himself in other ways, but he didn't and now he has to suffer the consequences of his actions (and unfortunately, so does the little girl).
 

Rhea

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Oct 20, 2007
Messages
6,388
Re: 4 Year-Old Accidentally Shot By Police Officer in Columb

That poor family and police officer. I imagine both will suffer serious trauma because of what happened. Is the little girl alive?

With all the shootings happening every day in that part of the world this doesn't even make the top 5 US shooting related reports in the British media for the weekend. We have reports on the university shootings in Texas and Arizona though.
 

AGBF

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 26, 2003
Messages
22,011
Re: 4 Year-Old Accidentally Shot By Police Officer in Columb

momhappy|1444573075|3937205 said:
The officer was responding to another call in the neighborhood (a hit and run I believe) when he heard cries for help in another home. He walked up to the front door help and was charged by the two dogs that the family owned. He shot the dog to protect himself and the bullet hit a 4 year-old in the leg who was standing in the doorway. It was unclear if the bullet hit her directly or was a result of ricochet. I don't know what police protocol is for encountering a dog (in "attack" mode). Clearly, he made a mistake, but human error happens in every job - some with more serious consequences than others.

You would think that he could have defended himself in other ways, but he didn't and now he has to suffer the consequences of his actions (and unfortunately, so does the little girl).

What consequences? He wasn't shot!

And, yes, human error happens in every job. But let me give you another scenario.

Licensed clinical social workers have MSWs for which they spend two years in school doing 21 hours a week of field work under supervision each year as well as taking eight courses (four each semester). Then they are required to be supervised as post-graduates and to take exams for licensing. Yet they still do not prescribe drugs; do not give injections; do not start IV lines; and certainly do not carry firearms. The licensed clinical social workers are licensed because they are going to have the power to discuss emotionally charged subjects with human beings and those human beings are supposed to be protected by law. (What a concept.)

We give the power of life and death to nurses and policemen and policewomen. We have a right to expect more than lip service to their knowing exactly how to execute their jobs. Most of them have far, far less formal training than LCSWs and no licenses. Either they need much more training and need to be far more accountable or they need their firearms taken away. Great Britain is not the only country that has police who do not carry firearms. I just read about the police in Norway.

By the way, when I worked for a city welfare department we had "panic buttons" in our desks. Then some of the more hysterical people wanted to build glass barriers between clients and personnel. The secretaries were becoming alarmed at some of our mentally ill clients. That is not what I was trained for: to work behind protective glass. I am not a prison guard/corrections officer. My job is to use the tools with which I was trained, my ability to read people and my ability to handle them. If a person appears to be a danger to himself or others, I can call 911. Otherwise, I can handle it.

AGBF
 

AGBF

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 26, 2003
Messages
22,011
Re: 4 Year-Old Accidentally Shot By Police Officer in Columb

Rhea|1444574336|3937211 said:
That poor family and police officer. I imagine both will suffer serious trauma because of what happened. Is the little girl alive?

Yes.
 

momhappy

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Mar 3, 2013
Messages
4,660
Re: 4 Year-Old Accidentally Shot By Police Officer in Columb

AGBF|1444575507|3937212 said:
momhappy|1444573075|3937205 said:
The officer was responding to another call in the neighborhood (a hit and run I believe) when he heard cries for help in another home. He walked up to the front door help and was charged by the two dogs that the family owned. He shot the dog to protect himself and the bullet hit a 4 year-old in the leg who was standing in the doorway. It was unclear if the bullet hit her directly or was a result of ricochet. I don't know what police protocol is for encountering a dog (in "attack" mode). Clearly, he made a mistake, but human error happens in every job - some with more serious consequences than others.

You would think that he could have defended himself in other ways, but he didn't and now he has to suffer the consequences of his actions (and unfortunately, so does the little girl).

What consequences? He wasn't shot!

And, yes, human error happens in every job. But let me give you another scenario.

Licensed clinical social workers have MSWs for which they spend two years in school doing 21 hours a week of field work under supervision each year as well as taking eight courses (four each semester). Then they are required to be supervised as post-graduates and to take exams for licensing. Yet they still do not prescribe drugs; do not give injections; do not start IV lines; and certainly do not carry firearms. The licensed clinical social workers are licensed because they are going to have the power to discuss emotionally charged subjects with human beings and those human beings are supposed to be protected by law. (What a concept.)

We give the power of life and death to nurses and policemen and policewomen. We have a right to expect more than lip service to their knowing exactly how to execute their jobs. Most of them have far, far less formal training than LCSWs and no licenses. Either they need much more training and need to be far more accountable or they need their firearms taken away. Great Britain is not the only country that has police who do not carry firearms. I just read about the police in Norway.

By the way, when I worked for a city welfare department we had "panic buttons" in our desks. Then some of the more hysterical people wanted to build glass barriers between clients and personnel. The secretaries were becoming alarmed at some of our mentally ill clients. That is not what I was trained for: to work behind protective glass. I am not a prison guard/corrections officer. My job is to use the tools with which I was trained, my ability to read people and my ability to handle them. If a person appears to be a danger to himself or others, I can call 911. Otherwise, I can handle it.

AGBF

Just because he wasn't shot, doesn't mean that he won't experience any consequences. I'm assuming that he was traumatized by the event as well (I can't imagine some one not being traumatized at the thought of shooting any innocent child), not to mention any consequences that he might receive in terms of his job.
 

momhappy

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Mar 3, 2013
Messages
4,660
Re: 4 Year-Old Accidentally Shot By Police Officer in Columb

Rhea|1444574336|3937211 said:
That poor family and police officer. I imagine both will suffer serious trauma because of what happened. Is the little girl alive?

With all the shootings happening every day in that part of the world this doesn't even make the top 5 US shooting related reports in the British media for the weekend. We have reports on the university shootings in Texas and Arizona though.

Yes, she's alive (and now age 5). She was hit in the leg.
 

momhappy

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Mar 3, 2013
Messages
4,660
Re: 4 Year-Old Accidentally Shot By Police Officer in Columb

After doing a little bit of research it seems that some officers receive in-service training given to officers on how to safely interact with aggressive dogs - I don't know if that's something that varies dept. by dept., state by state, etc. Also, many police manuals authorize an officer to shoot and kill "potentially dangerous" animals when they pose a risk to safety. Still, an officer might have to go through an internal investigation for shooting a pet/animal. It would seem to me that the officer in this case utilized excessive force and more importantly, he probably violated proper procedure when engaging in excessive force (discharging a weapon with bystanders potentially in the line of fire, etc.). Again, it comes down to an issue of human error (and maybe improper training) with some pretty serious consequences in this case.
 

House Cat

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Feb 22, 2009
Messages
4,480
Re: 4 Year-Old Accidentally Shot By Police Officer in Columb

I am pretty darned sure that it is in a police officer's training to ensure that the area is clear before firing his weapon. This guy f-ed up.
 

AGBF

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 26, 2003
Messages
22,011
Re: 4 Year-Old Accidentally Shot By Police Officer in Columb

momhappy|1444576493|3937218 said:
AGBF|1444575507|3937212 said:
momhappy|1444573075|3937205 said:
The officer was responding to another call in the neighborhood (a hit and run I believe) when he heard cries for help in another home. He walked up to the front door help and was charged by the two dogs that the family owned. He shot the dog to protect himself and the bullet hit a 4 year-old in the leg who was standing in the doorway. It was unclear if the bullet hit her directly or was a result of ricochet. I don't know what police protocol is for encountering a dog (in "attack" mode). Clearly, he made a mistake, but human error happens in every job - some with more serious consequences than others.

You would think that he could have defended himself in other ways, but he didn't and now he has to suffer the consequences of his actions (and unfortunately, so does the little girl).

What consequences? He wasn't shot!

And, yes, human error happens in every job. But let me give you another scenario.

Licensed clinical social workers have MSWs for which they spend two years in school doing 21 hours a week of field work under supervision each year as well as taking eight courses (four each semester). Then they are required to be supervised as post-graduates and to take exams for licensing. Yet they still do not prescribe drugs; do not give injections; do not start IV lines; and certainly do not carry firearms. The licensed clinical social workers are licensed because they are going to have the power to discuss emotionally charged subjects with human beings and those human beings are supposed to be protected by law. (What a concept.)

We give the power of life and death to nurses and policemen and policewomen. We have a right to expect more than lip service to their knowing exactly how to execute their jobs. Most of them have far, far less formal training than LCSWs and no licenses. Either they need much more training and need to be far more accountable or they need their firearms taken away. Great Britain is not the only country that has police who do not carry firearms. I just read about the police in Norway.

By the way, when I worked for a city welfare department we had "panic buttons" in our desks. Then some of the more hysterical people wanted to build glass barriers between clients and personnel. The secretaries were becoming alarmed at some of our mentally ill clients. That is not what I was trained for: to work behind protective glass. I am not a prison guard/corrections officer. My job is to use the tools with which I was trained, my ability to read people and my ability to handle them. If a person appears to be a danger to himself or others, I can call 911. Otherwise, I can handle it.

AGBF

Just because he wasn't shot, doesn't mean that he won't experience any consequences. I'm assuming that he was traumatized by the event as well (I can't imagine some one not being traumatized at the thought of shooting any innocent child), not to mention any consequences that he might receive in terms of his job.

Why does this response "get to me"? I will try to use my reaction to it to learn something about my feelings about this topic. Clearly this police action brings out inordinate rage in me.

When you write, above, "I can't imagine not being traumatized"-having no evidence that this officer suffered at all and when you write, "not to mention any consequences he might have received in terms of his job", clearly not knowing whether he received any, my blood boils.

I do not know if I am reacting to his shooting a child, or trying to shoot a pet, or both. Or it may be something else.

I am not saying that my position is wrong, but I am over reacting and this is a teachable moment for me to use on myself. I guess I should thank you, although I am not feeling very happy right now.

Civil discussions can be good.

Deb :wavey:
 

momhappy

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Mar 3, 2013
Messages
4,660
Re: 4 Year-Old Accidentally Shot By Police Officer in Columb

Well, since neither one of us has many details of the event, I guess some of it is speculation - including your statement about shooting a child (yes, the child was shot, but was the child shot directly or did the bullet ricochet and hit the child who may not have been in the line of fire). I'm not condoning what the officer did - I think he messed up. Big time. It's difficult for me to over-react in these situations because A) Obviously, I wasn't there and B) I don't have all the facts. The one thing that really bothered me about the incident is that it was reported that the officer went and sat in his patrol car after he shot the little girl as opposed to offering help to the family. They speculated that he was shocked/traumatized by the event (or maybe embarrassed), but you'd think the guy would still offer help until paramedics arrived :confused:
 

distracts

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Oct 11, 2011
Messages
5,944
Re: 4 Year-Old Accidentally Shot By Police Officer in Columb

Elliot86|1444567395|3937195 said:
I know it isn't ALL police officers. I know most are good and do good work that is dangerous. But when I hear every day about the ones who shoot first and ask questions later it rattles me in a pretty extreme way.

Yeah, I would guess 99% of police officers are good, but the 1% that aren't have such an outsize effect on perception - and with good cause, because their actions are resulting in injury to and the death of people who those things should have never happened to.

AGBF|1444575507|3937212 said:
Either they need much more training and need to be far more accountable or they need their firearms taken away.

Very true. Have you seen the articles that police academies in the past decade or so have begun teaching this "war on cops" mentality? I don't have any links to hand but they are very alarming - often emphasis is given to this paranoid mentality rather than on tactics to defuse and de-escalate situations.
 

AGBF

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 26, 2003
Messages
22,011
Re: 4 Year-Old Accidentally Shot By Police Officer in Columb

momhappy|1444603091|3937314 said:
Well, since neither one of us has many details of the event, I guess some of it is speculation - including your statement about shooting a child (yes, the child was shot, but was the child shot directly or did the bullet ricochet and hit the child who may not have been in the line of fire). I'm not condoning what the officer did - I think he messed up. Big time. It's difficult for me to over-react in these situations because A) Obviously, I wasn't there and B) I don't have all the facts. The one thing that really bothered me about the incident is that it was reported that the officer went and sat in his patrol car after he shot the little girl as opposed to offering help to the family. They speculated that he was shocked/traumatized by the event (or maybe embarrassed), but you'd think the guy would still offer help until paramedics arrived :confused:

Ava Ellis' mother, Andrea, was there. Your research inspired me to do a little of my own. Here she is, giving her eyewitness account, of the events that occurred at her home. According to her, all she had asked for was that the policeman at her neighbor's, Mr. Parsley's, house on an unrelated matter, call an ambulance as she was getting her dogs together. Instead the policeman came walking over and shot at her dog, directly hitting her daughter and breaking her leg. She said that this was no small leg wound inflicted by the officer. Her daughter's cast came up to her rib cage and her daughter thought she was going to die as she underwent this ordeal. Mrs. Ellis also feared her daughter might die. Ava was one of the four Ellis children in the home at the time. After he shot her, the officer left the scene.

Watch the interview and judge Mrs. Ellis' credibility. I have also read, elsewhere, that Ava has had to have further surgery since that event.

Interview...http://www.10tv.com/content/stories/2015/06/30/whitehall-ohio-officer-walked-away-from-scene-after-shooting-4-year-old-family-claims.html

More...http://nbc4i.com/2015/06/30/parents-say-girl-shot-by-officer-faces-more-surgeries/
 

amc80

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jun 18, 2010
Messages
5,765
Re: 4 Year-Old Accidentally Shot By Police Officer in Columb

DH is a deputy. If he were to be charged by a dog, he'd shoot it.
 

AGBF

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 26, 2003
Messages
22,011
Re: 4 Year-Old Accidentally Shot By Police Officer in Columb

amc80|1444622667|3937381 said:
DH is a deputy. If he were to be charged by a dog, he'd shoot it.

Glad to know where DH stands on shooting dogs. Now let's move on to round two. Shooting 4 year-old girls.

If DH missed the dog and shot the 4 year-old child who lived with the dog, breaking her leg, would he stay to help administer first aid? Or would he leave that to the family while he went to his patrol car?

In my opinion (I know what my IQ is) a policeman is trained in basic medical care. Many civilians are NOT. But they can use telephones. So a policeman with an IQ of say...over 50...would know he should delegate calling for help to SOMEONE ELSE and stay to give medical care, not go back to his patrol car to (ostensibly) call for help.

AGBF
 

Gypsy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
40,225
Re: 4 Year-Old Accidentally Shot By Police Officer in Columb

AGBF, I too am horrified. And I believe the mother.

But I also know the effects of extreme shock, from personal experience. I personally, cut the cop a break on his reaction. He meant to shoot a dog and shot a kid instead. That would mess anyone with a soul up, and people often, when they are in unexpected situations, fail to react as we ideally would like them to.
 

arkieb1

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
May 11, 2012
Messages
9,726
Re: 4 Year-Old Accidentally Shot By Police Officer in Columb

It's not just the mother claiming the police office left, witnesses saw the guy leaving, I'd say he panicked and either went out to radio for help or he just panicked and fled. Either way it's an inappropriate response to a situation that should NEVER have happened.
 

missy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jun 8, 2008
Messages
48,241
Re: 4 Year-Old Accidentally Shot By Police Officer in Columb

I just read the whole story including the Facebook link. Thank you Deb for providing the links. I am absolutely horrified. There is no excuse whatsoever.

Fact one-the officer overreacted and shot at a dog who I do not believe was charging or threatening to attack the officer yet the officer took his gun out to shoot the dog.

Fact two-he mistakenly shot the little girl Ava in her leg.

Fact three- he then walked away and got into his patrol car and left the scene of the accident...or crime as IMO it now was due to the fact that he left the little girl and family without trying to attend to her and her wounds.

:nono: :nono: :nono:
 

packrat

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Dec 12, 2008
Messages
10,614
Re: 4 Year-Old Accidentally Shot By Police Officer in Columb

What was he charged with? I've not read the articles.

Yes officers are trained. And yes, they're expected to know who/what/where/when/why/how of every situation faster than the speed of light and sound, warp 10 engage, and then they need to hope that in that hundred millionth of a split second that they have to assess a situation, nothing changes by the time they process and make a decision on how to react. And they're going to make mistakes and sometimes those mistakes are going to be bad. It's sad and it's horrible. The fact of the matter is, there isn't a one of us who can do that job 100% perfectly, 100% of the time. If one of us thinks we can, then one of us needs to saddle up. In no way shape or form am I saying what happened is ok, ever. But for whatever reason, we as a whole, seem to be convinced of our unfailing abilities to handle all past tense situations in a far better manner than those whose job it is.
 

arkieb1

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
May 11, 2012
Messages
9,726
Re: 4 Year-Old Accidentally Shot By Police Officer in Columb

I don't think that is true at all, what I think IS true is some people handle difficult life threatening or in this case non life threatening situations better than others. Young and inexperience people in all sorts of professions make critical errors in judgement every single day, doctors, pilots, teachers, nurses, police officers to name a few. Older more experience people also make bad snap decisions no doubt in certain situations on the day.

We have no clue what the police officer's background is, what frame of mind he was in that particular day, how well trained he was or wasn't to deal with the situation - irrespective it was still a totally inappropriate response before, during and after the event. If we as society don't judge and sometimes ask the hard questions that need to be asked, then how can we improve and aim to do better, to prevent this if possible, from happening again.

I am very glad the little girl is alive.
 

momhappy

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Mar 3, 2013
Messages
4,660
Re: 4 Year-Old Accidentally Shot By Police Officer in Columb

But I wonder about the timing - I know that he got into his patrol car after the incident (assuming he called for help there), so did he leave the scene before or after the paramedics arrived?
And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that I "believe" one story over the other (the cop vs. the mom). I'm just going by the accounts that I read and piecing it together, which is not an accurate representation. The cop made a huge error and then made a second error by not offering to help, but as someone suggested, he may have been reacting out of shock/trauma, etc.
 

MollyMalone

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jun 2, 2013
Messages
3,350
Re: 4 Year-Old Accidentally Shot By Police Officer in Columb

Several observations-thoughts:
AGBF said:
When you [momhappy] write, above, "I can't imagine not being traumatized"-having no evidence that this officer suffered at all and when you write, "not to mention any consequences he might have received in terms of his job", clearly not knowing whether he received any, my blood boils.
I do not know if I am reacting to his shooting a child, or trying to shoot a pet, or both. Or it may be something else.
Deb, if you read the Columbus Dispatch's news story, you'll see that one of her neighbors, who called 911 after hearing the gun shot & observed the officer walk to his car, told the reporter that the officer did appear shaken: “He seemed a little disoriented, like he was really bothered.” Note that this same neighbor did not say the officer drove off.
http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2015/06/19/whitehall-officer-involved-shooting.html
Not sure why arkieb believes that "It's not just the mother claiming the police office left, witnesses saw the guy leaving." I've seen no first-hand accounts from any of the neighbors corroborating this, but maybe arkie knows of something I have yet to come across. Columbus, OH Police Department patrol cars do have dash cams, so I imagine that this particular aspect of the matter was/can be resolved by review of the video.

AGBF said:
Ava Ellis' mother, Andrea, was there. Your research inspired me to do a little of my own. Here she is, giving her eyewitness account, of the events that occurred at her home. According to her, all she had asked for was that the policeman at her neighbor's, Mr. Parsley's, house on an unrelated matter, call an ambulance as she was getting her dogs together. Instead the policeman came walking over and shot at her dog, directly hitting her daughter and breaking her leg. She said that this was no small leg wound inflicted by the officer. Her daughter's cast came up to her rib cage and her daughter thought she was going to die as she underwent this ordeal. Mrs. Ellis also feared her daughter might die. Ava was one of the four Ellis children in the home at the time. After he shot her, the officer left the scene.
Watch the interview and judge Mrs. Ellis' credibility. * * *
Let me clarify that it was Andrea's sister, Brandie Kelly -- who had already called 911 because the pregnant Andrea had cut herself and "was bleeding all over the place" -- who summoned the officer as he was leaving the home of Gary Parsley, the victim of an earlier hit-and-run, and who was a primary source of into in the article you linked in your first post (he did not say that Brandie asked the officer to call an ambulance).

We do not know whether the officer's shot "directly hit" her daughter; it might have ricocheted. That the child was later in a cast is because of the post-op need to keep the repaired leg absolutely inert. The nature of the injury (shattered femur) apparently wasn't obvious to the EMTs since, according to neighbor Gary Parsley in the report linked in your first post, the child was not put on a stretcher:
They brought the girl out,” he said. “She wasn’t on a stretcher. One of the paramedics was carrying her. She had a blanket around her and there was a little bit of blood on the blanket, but she seemed to be conscious. Her head was poking around [and] she wasn’t, like, screaming or crying that I could tell.”

As for why he himself did not stay at the side of the wounded child, consider the fact the understandably distraught mother is yelling at him, "You shot my child! You shot my child!" So he may have thought that it would traumatize the child further to have the guy in uniform who fired the bullet that struck her (whether directly or by ricochet) now be looming over her. Or as others have suggested, he blanked out on what would be best because of his own shock over what had happened.

There is also the possibility that Columbus Police Department protocol-policy mandates that an officer -- faced with a victim wounded by a bullet from his/her discharge -- step away from the scene, not tend to the victim, lest s/he aggravate the injury/injuries or purposefully or inadvertently tamper with the scene (e.g., kick the bullet and shell away from where they landed). I don't know what the Columbus PD requires of its officers, but IIRC (I no longer have the NYPD handbook on my desk) that's the rule for NYPD officers.

Lastly, I would note that Andrea Ellis's accounts have some problems, e.g., her lengthy Facebook account (2 weeks ago & 2+ months afterwards ) is hard to make complete sense of; has some internal inconsistencies; doesn't entirely square, in some meaningful (from a legal standpoint) ways, with the two neighbors' accounts or even her own earlier accounts such as the June 30 interview at the lawyer's office as memorialized in the first link of your post last night. (Seems unlikely the lawyer saw what Ms. Ellis posted on Facebook before she put it up because it provides a fair amount of fodder for cross-examination.)

I don't say this to slam her -- it was a chaotic, awful scenario. Rather to suggest (a) it's a mistake for any of us to feel confident that we know what all happened (a) based on her accounts, and (b) in the absence of hearing from Officer Thomas; it's not outside the realm of possibility that were to you to see and listen to him with objectivity, you would find him equally credible, perhaps more so.

On a happier note, I am delighted to see that Ava is now doing so well, can even jump up and down -- what a plucky, charming child!
 

AGBF

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 26, 2003
Messages
22,011
Re: 4 Year-Old Accidentally Shot By Police Officer in Columb

I don't know how many times in this thread I have read that the child who was shot may not have been "directly shot" but "hit by a ricochet".

Would someone, please, tell me what was so magical about this shooting? I mean, why is it not subject to the same laws of science as other shootings? Why are other shootings straightforward and this one not? Why don't we hear that all shootings might have been "caused by a ricochet"? If a policeman had been shot by a black teenager would anyone have written that no one knows if he was "directly shot or hit by a ricochet"?

AGBF
:read:
 

momhappy

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Mar 3, 2013
Messages
4,660
Re: 4 Year-Old Accidentally Shot By Police Officer in Columb

A ricochet could indicate that the officer didn't fire his weapon with the little girl in view. In my assumptions (and maybe they are incorrect), he could have followed procedure, but unfortunately an innocent bystander was hit as a result of ricochet. I mentioned it because it was referenced in many of the articles that I read about the incident.
This shooting isn't really all that much different than any other accidental shootings. It's not like the officer intentionally shot a little girl (at least that doesn't appear to be the case). whenever there are guns involved, people can get shot by accident. The point in mentioning the ricochet simply indicates that maybe the officer didn't mess up quite as bad as it might appear.
 

AGBF

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 26, 2003
Messages
22,011
Re: 4 Year-Old Accidentally Shot By Police Officer in Columb

momhappy|1444683043|3937578 said:
A ricochet could indicate that the officer didn't fire his weapon with the little girl in view. In my assumptions (and maybe they are incorrect), he could have followed procedure, but unfortunately an innocent bystander was hit as a result of ricochet. I mentioned it because it was referenced in many of the articles that I read about the incident.

Yup. I got this. In other words there has been NO scientific evidence of a ricochet. NONE. But there has been endless talk about it. Because people wanted to think the policeman might not have hit her with his shot. Even though the force of his bullet broke her bone. Magical thinking.

AGBF
 

MollyMalone

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jun 2, 2013
Messages
3,350
Re: 4 Year-Old Accidentally Shot By Police Officer in Columb

Thanks, Deb, you've made me realize that although it was in my mind, I failed to include any reference to forensic evidence when typing. So that sentence should have been
I don't say this to slam her -- it was a chaotic, awful scenario. Rather to suggest it's a mistake for any of us to feel confident that we know what all happened (a) based on her accounts; (b) in the absence of hearing from Officer Thomas; it's not outside the realm of possibility that were to you to see and listen to him with objectivity, you would find him equally credible, perhaps more so; and (c) without knowing what analysis of forensic evidence has yielded.

Those 3 factors, coupled with the fact that Officer Thomas fired the gun in close physical quarters, is why I am not prepared to unequivocally declare -- as you have -- that the child's leg injury was the result of a direct shot.

I can confidently say that I'd be no less wary about jumping to conclusions under like circumstances involving a police officer injured in the leg by a bullet fired from the gun held by a black teen.

You have not indicated in any way that you've been given food for reflection and reconsideration. Instead you posed a query that certainly seems to reflect a belief that I and others here who have not embraced your views of the matter are closeted racists -- and just now, have gone on to accuse of us of "magical thinking". So I don't expect that you will believe me. So be it. I know my self & how I have conducted my life and advocacy, both personal and professional.
 

momhappy

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Mar 3, 2013
Messages
4,660
Re: 4 Year-Old Accidentally Shot By Police Officer in Columb

That's not what I'm saying, AGBF. As I said before, I don't know all of the details of the incident. I've only posted about the actual things that I've read. Maybe they haven't done a thorough investigation yet, maybe they have and the details have not been released.... maybe there are any number of things that none of could possibly know about what exactly went on there. I have no reason to jump to conclusions without having the actual facts. What good does it do to quickly judge in these types of scenarios? Maybe the the cop made one colossal error by using excessive force and worse yet, choosing to use that force with a 4 year-old girl in plain view and in the line of fire? Or maybe he chose to use excessive force (maybe still an error on his part) and the little girl was hit accidentally? The headlines are certainly captivating - "cop shoots 4 year-old girl" but I don't care to get caught up in that without having the facts. I can appreciate your point of view and I agree with you in that it is was very unfortunate (no matter what the circumstances).
 

AGBF

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 26, 2003
Messages
22,011
Re: 4 Year-Old Accidentally Shot By Police Officer in Columb

MollyMalone|1444690681|3937623 said:
Thanks, Deb, you've made me realize that although it was in my mind, I failed to include any reference to forensic evidence when typing. So that sentence should have been
I don't say this to slam her -- it was a chaotic, awful scenario. Rather to suggest it's a mistake for any of us to feel confident that we know what all happened (a) based on her accounts; (b) in the absence of hearing from Officer Thomas; it's not outside the realm of possibility that were to you to see and listen to him with objectivity, you would find him equally credible, perhaps more so; and (c) without knowing what analysis of forensic evidence has yielded.

Those 3 factors, coupled with the fact that Officer Thomas fired the gun in close physical quarters, is why I am not prepared to unequivocally declare -- as you have -- that the child's leg injury was the result of a direct shot.

I can confidently say that I'd be no less wary about jumping to conclusions under like circumstances involving a police officer injured in the leg by a bullet fired from the gun held by a black teen.

You have not indicated in any way that you've been given food for reflection and reconsideration. Instead you posed a query that certainly seems to reflect a belief that I and others here who have not embraced your views of the matter are closeted racists -- and just now, have gone on to accuse of us of "magical thinking". So I don't expect that you will believe me. So be it. I know my self & how I have conducted my life and advocacy, both personal and professional.

The logic of much of what you wrote is flawed, but I don't have the energy to parse every sentence you wrote and point out its flaws. I will point out one that matters to me most.

You wrote:

"Instead you posed a query that certainly seems to reflect a belief that I and others here who have not embraced your views of the matter are closeted racists "

You did, at least use a qualifier. You wrote, "certainly seems". There is the "certainly"which emphasizes how much you believe what you write, but there is also the "seems". So you are not absolutely asserting that I have the belief that others who who do not share my views are closeted racists. It may just strongly appear that way.

Got it.

But that is not at all my belief or the point I was trying to make.

I was trying to make the point that all of society, including me, assume that shootings are the kind where a bullet exits a gun and hits an object. We do not routinely speculate on whether a shooting might have been the result of a bullet bouncing off something else.

I chose the example of a black teenager shooting a policeman because that is the kind of story where the establishment is least likely to automatically defend the shooter. Where people are least likely to start talking about "ricochet" theories. Why do I believe this? Because I believe there is racism in this country. Not because I believe you are a closet racist. I don't know you. But I know the statistics about young black men's deaths.

Deb/AGBF
 
Be a part of the community It's free, join today!
    "Not so Fast!" says Mother Nature
    "Not so Fast!" says Mother Nature - 11/29
    Jewels of the Week: November 2021
    Jewels of the Week: November 2021 - 11/26
    Throwback Thursdays: November 2021
    Throwback Thursdays: November 2021 - 11/25
Top