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4.5 to 5 Carat Super Ideal search help

L

LbF

Rough_Rock
Joined
Nov 16, 2018
Messages
5
Hello,

I'm new to the board and appreciate any help in advance. I am looking for a 4.5 to 5 Carat Super Ideal, F color, VS1 or better. I have been in contact with the very helpful folks at CBI/HPD. As most of you are probably aware, CBI/HPD is CTO at this size. Thats fine by me! I love the idea of knowing who is cutting the diamond and being involved in the process every step of the way. The energy of that feels great to me! On top of it, all the people involved are very helpful and thorough in their assistance. I like them!

That said, there's an ACA diamond at WF that fits my specs to a "T". What do you all think about this diamond? ASET images, Clouds? Price?

https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3893623.htm

I believe CBI or BG is substantially more for the same specs type CTO diamond. Should that be a red flag for the WF diamond?
I'm reluctant to just buy the WF diamond and assess myself for 30 days. I don't feel that qualified or experienced enough to evaluate this diamond in a vacuum in compared to smaller 2-3 carat CBI/HPD diamonds.

Thoughts and advice is welcome!
 
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KKJohnson said:
I’m not in love with the table on the ACA, I think this one is better but the color is higher than you want
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4043198.htm

I like the idea of going custom cut with CBI.
Click to expand...

Do you not mean lower ?

I've been looking at that stone myself. If that was a wee bit larger (and colour ok for me), I'd grab it! I agree that the smaller table of this stone should make it more firey. But the OP may not want this colour if he/she is looking at an F.

I'm too chicken to go custom, but would love to see the OP going this route.
 
Phoenix said:
Do you not mean lower ?

I've been looking at that stone myself. If that was a wee bit larger (and colour ok for me), I'd grab it! I agree that the smaller table of this stone should make it more firey. But the OP may not want this colour if he/she is looking at an F.

I'm too chicken to go custom, but would love to see the OP going this route.
Click to expand...

Yes, sorry meant lower.
 
I think the WF is perfection!
 
LbF said:
I believe CBI or BG is substantially more for the same specs type CTO diamond.
Click to expand...

This comes to mind:

There is a significant price 'jump' at 5 cts, so it may be the case that the CTO quote is based on >5.00 prices - around 200K, while cca. 4.5 cts might be around 150K. This, aside the variability of estimate prices for D-F range, as opposed to F - which is the bottom of that range.

2c (against your 200K!)

I am obviously biased... not against the outstanding WF offering, but for the CTO idea.
 
For me, it would come down to whether any of the superideal vendors had anything in stock that meets OPs requirements. WF obviously do though at this point in time.

57 table on the 4.468ct stone doesn’t particularly bother me. At that size of a stone, you are going to be getting some serious sparkle on.
 
I'm all for a slightly bigger table in exchange for .1mm more in diameter, weight being the same. Also, the 4.468 would be over 4.5 if the table was smaller than 57. The price would be approx 10% more.;)2
 
That Whiteflash diamond is a unicorn in that it is so close to the .5 mark but isn't quite there and pricing wise that will make a difference. That stone will be an absolute knockout and it's already there, no waiting around for cutting etc, and you know exactly what you're getting. Could you ask for some pictures in other lighting conditions or perhaps even buy it and see it in person?

Having said that, I have read many threads regarding Whiteflash Vs CBI, and a lot of people argue that they are super ideals with different flavours. I personally, with your budget and this delicious decision, would order two slightly smaller stones, one from each with approximately the same specs and see what I thought of them competitively. I mean obviously all stones have their own personality, but I've seen CBIs in person (not ACAs) and there is a very specific quality of light performance about them beyond fire vs brilliance. Having not seen ACAs I couldn't comment but they are also meant to be stunning. If there was no real difference I would go Whiteflash - because it already exists. Only thing being, that unicorn risks being poached during that process if you haven't bought it... Nothing is ever straightforward hey.

In fact you might want to put it on hold whilst you're thinking about this. :)
 
That WF stone is great stone...nice aset, idealscope, and H&A. Nothing wrong with the table size. It is well within Ideal proportions. Guess some people
are being nit-picky???
 
That 4.46 stone from Whiteflash will be beautiful! I would rather have something that I can see rather than taking a chance on specs that may or not work out. It is also less expensive so that's a win as well. If you don't like it, you can certainly return it but it checks too many of your boxes to disregard.
 
I agree, the 4.4 from WF looks amazing!

Sorry, edit. Having just done a CTO with HPD/CBI, if you are willing to accept the unknowns that come with custom cutting and waiting a bit for the stone, I would not hesitate. My experience was outstanding and the end product is incredible. So I guess it comes down to your comfort level with having some unknown factors vs buying what you can see now.
 
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These posts have been very helpful. First off, the pricing differential estimate is about $45k between CBI and WF for a 4.5 carat same specs. It's at least another $100k for a 5 carat CBI vs this WF diamond at 4.5 carats This is apples and oranges but impacts my decision because l apparently getting a rough 4.5 carat right now in my spexs for CBI is not economically feasible due to short supply. So if be spending a lot more to get a half carat more.

My concern about the WF is the price is really an outlier compared to CBI or BG. In fact, look at these two at Blue Nile:

4.00 F VS1 ‘Ideal’ = $ 163,540

https://www.bluenile.com/diamond-details/LD01451916?

refTab=DIAMONDS&track=viewDiamondDetails&action=newTab&catalogView=true


4.54 F VS1 ‘Ideal’ = $ 163,089

https://www.bluenile.com/diamond-de...viewDiamondDetails&action=newTab&catalogView=

Interesting to note the carat differential between these two very spec similar diamonds but also that the blue nile cut diamonds are priced higher than the ACA WF diamond!

So I'm asking WF to send the diamond to an independent appraiser in my area. CBI is sending some smaller stones to compare. It won't be an ideal comparison but this way I'll have a more informed decision with the help of an independent appraiser.
 
Those two Blue Nile stones aren’t even cut that particularly well (the second one is a stinker in my books). Definitely not ideal by AGS standards nor by Pricescope standards. While the WF stones truly are ideal and super-ideal in cut quality.
 
Yes, ok so why is the WF priced below them and well below CBI and BGD?
 
LbF said:
These posts have been very helpful. First off, the pricing differential estimate is about $45k between CBI and WF for a 4.5 carat same specs. It's at least another $100k for a 5 carat CBI vs this WF diamond at 4.5 carats This is apples and oranges but impacts my decision because l apparently getting a rough 4.5 carat right now in my spexs for CBI is not economically feasible due to short supply. So if be spending a lot more to get a half carat more.

My concern about the WF is the price is really an outlier compared to CBI or BG. In fact, look at these two at Blue Nile:

4.00 F VS1 ‘Ideal’ = $ 163,540

https://www.bluenile.com/diamond-details/LD01451916?

refTab=DIAMONDS&track=viewDiamondDetails&action=newTab&catalogView=true


4.54 F VS1 ‘Ideal’ = $ 163,089

https://www.bluenile.com/diamond-de...viewDiamondDetails&action=newTab&catalogView=

Interesting to note the carat differential between these two very spec similar diamonds but also that the blue nile cut diamonds are priced higher than the ACA WF diamond!

So I'm asking WF to send the diamond to an independent appraiser in my area. CBI is sending some smaller stones to compare. It won't be an ideal comparison but this way I'll have a more informed decision with the help of an independent appraiser.
Click to expand...

I totally agree with @bmfang, the Bluenile stones are not really comparable.

Excellent that you're seeing those stones in person, are you able to say which ones?

Remember to plan what pictures you want to take beforehand and the different lighting conditions you wish to view the stones in, because I promise as soon as they're in front of you you'll forget everything. :lol:
 
I ran a comparison for someone the other day looking at 3-4 carat stones. I hit the super ideal purveyors already noted along with RC for GIA XXX stones. What I noticed and feel is relevant to this conversation is some of the GIA virtual inventory vendors were intentionally price gouging based on size compared to others.

The BN stones above make me think the same.

As far as CTO or stock, only you can answer that. I do like the part you know EXACTLY what you are getting with the WF stone as it exists. The other part of me likes the adventure of custom. But I've custom built houses, cars, guns and a setting for my fiancee. I very much enjoy the journey as much as the finished product. That said, each time I also felt I was able to attain a quality aspect not available otherwise and many times for not much of a premium. I'm not against a higher cost if I get value out of it. Which is why I say only you can answer this.

For me, I'd have a hard time finding $45k of value between an ACA and CBI.
 
The price you are seeing may depend on a number of factors. The cost of the rough factors into this. Both of the BN stones may have been cut at a time when rough prices were high, hence a need for the finished stone to need to “recoup” those costs (though both of those stones were clearly cut for weight retention rather than for light performance). One of them has a GIA report from 2009 and the other one has either been “re-certed” for a 2018 date or has been newly cut. Given than really large stones don’t tend to move as quickly as smaller sized stones on market, I’m thinking the second BN stone has been re-certed. I have a feeling the vendor wants to maintain margins on both of those stones hence no discounting.

WF also has a reputation for having the cheapest prices for super ideals of all of the superideal vendors.
 
LbF said:
Yes, ok so why is the WF priced below them and well below CBI and BGD?
Click to expand...

Blue Nile is overpriced in some stones and don't fall within super ideal proportions in most cases. The 2 stones you posted from Blue Nile I would definitely pass on. Brian Gavin and Crafted by Infinity are typically more expensive than Whiteflash but that doesn't mean Whiteflash stones aren't cut with the same precision. I'm not an expert just putting my 2 cents in.
 
.
- why WF is not more money
- why CBI is not less

Arrgh... who knows... There are worse examples of bonkers numbers pegged to stuff.

The CTO trip is not cheap. It would have made sense in some other context; as it is, I do not have any serious argument. Even if there is no material difference, it may well make sense to you... or not...

On a different note:
50K worth of custom cut diamonds could be many things like these - www . Quite the side dish to a RBC Ideal!
 
LbF said:
Yes, ok so why is the WF priced below them and well below CBI and BGD?
Click to expand...

My guess is WF sells more stones than CBI and can live with a smaller margin. Economics. Some business models by principal require a higher profit margin. Think about couture fashion v Banana Republic.
 
I think the Whiteflash stone is absolutely amazing! There is nothing whatsoever wrong with a 57 table! I personally wouldn't buy a 59-60% table, but 57 is well within the desirable range for ideal cuts. I'd 1000 times rather buy a stone already cut over custom cutting. (I like the H ACA stone, as well, but if you need colorless, the F VS1 is a fabulous choice.)

LbF said:
Yes, ok so why is the WF priced below them and well below CBI and BGD?
Click to expand...

LLJsmom said:
My guess is WF sells more stones than CBI and can live with a smaller margin. Economics. Some business models by principal require a higher profit margin. Think about couture fashion v Banana Republic.
Click to expand...

Bingo! I was about to say the same (other than we are talking about equal quality diamonds, and I don't think couture fashion and Banana Republic have the same quality products!). WF sells more stones and prices theirs competitively. I can tell you first hand as one of the many people here who has visited WF, it is a first class operation that will be around a very long time and they have extremely high standards for their stones. For that reason, I have a few WF ACA's, but nothing approaching the size you are looking at!

I do have a friend with a 4.7 ct ACA, and here is her thread and the reset thread:

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/my-4-7ct-whiteflash-aca-upgrade.222254/

https://www.pricescope.com/communit...ictor-canera-emilya-cathedral-setting.227774/
 
Here is a link to the thread I mentioned the other day. Also, circled in red was the price gouging I was talking about. As you can see the Yadav price for nearly the same size is considerably more than the WF super ideal.

https://www.pricescope.com/communit...-carat-in-large-diamonds.245052/#post-4451447

InkedCapture2_LI.jpg

As far as WF being lower than CBI/HPD, I think it's a combination of factors. No doubt scales of economy are at play. But also CBI sources & cuts their own stones. They then use a dealer network to push the stones to the public. HPD is an authorized dealer.

It's no secret CBI uses a "magic sauce" involved in cutting their stones that is proprietary to them. My guess is this may take more time, and even if it doesn't then I suspect they are taking a greater profit margin than some of the cutters that WF sources through for their stones. In WF's situation, they can use multiple cutters and leverage their sales volume to get the relationship and pricing structure they need to stay competitive.

Jumping back to the dealer network, my guess is that CBI determines final market prices so all their diamonds can be bought from HPD (or any other dealer) for the same price. They have to keep the profit enticing to their dealers or no one will push their inventory to the customer. Additionally, if you look at the business model as a whole CBI is pushing their stones as something unique to other super ideals which often demand a price premium in other industries.

I'm sure there are some flaws, etc in this logic but I bet it's pretty close to reality. After all, I work for neither company so these are just best guesses based on previous experience in other industries.
 
WF is unwilling to ship to an independent appraiser claiming that their insurance would not cover it due to the high value. I'm not sure this is a compelling argument. They regularly ship millions in diamonds, for purchases, settings, etc. No use debating it with them. I still want to have an appraiser help me evaluate the stone and also to compare to the smaller CBI diamonds. So, I bought the diamond under the 30 days return policy.

CBI had no issue at all sending the diamonds to an independent appraiser. On December 7th, I will be seeing these stones side by side with an appraiser.

What questions i should ask the appraiser to further help me evaluate the WF stone vs. the CBI stones?
 
I would be curious if there is any substantial reason to prefer a stone over the 5ct threshold. I have heard arguments both ways.

2c
 
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LbF said:
WF is unwilling to ship to an independent appraiser claiming that their insurance would not cover it due to the high value. I'm not sure this is a compelling argument. They regularly ship millions in diamonds, for purchases, settings, etc. No use debating it with them. I still want to have an appraiser help me evaluate the stone and also to compare to the smaller CBI diamonds. So, I bought the diamond under the 30 days return policy.

CBI had no issue at all sending the diamonds to an independent appraiser. On December 7th, I will be seeing these stones side by side with an appraiser.

What questions i should ask the appraiser to further help me evaluate the WF stone vs. the CBI stones?
Click to expand...
@LbF,
I can probably shed some light on the challenges of shipping a stone of this value to a third party.

Yes, we regularly do provide this service on most of our diamonds. We have a page on our site that lists a number of independent appraisers around the country who we have vetted and who we are prepared to ship to on behalf of customers with whom they have scheduled consultations. That vetting includes verifying credentials of the appraiser, reputation in the trade, that business insurance is in place and that the premises are secured and monitored, and rated safes are available where valuables are stored, etc. We also add appraisers on request, providing they meet those requirements and share with us the needed documentation.

As you know we provide free insured shipping on all sales. Our standard shipping inurance has certain limits, as does our jewelers block policy that would cover the merchandise after delivery and while in possession of the appraiser. When the goods exceed those limits special arrangements must be made. Another dealer sending smaller samples may not run up against the need to make special arrangements.

Another point to consider, if the goal is to compare brand characteristics, is that certain visual perceptions will be altered based on size alone. It is therefore better to compare like size and quality in order to get a true sense of how the diamonds may or may not differ one brand to the next. Such an apples to apples comparison could probably be arranged with little difficulty if we know the specs on the stones being supplied by the other vendor.

I hope this makes sense. If I can provide any assistance or answer any questions, please feel free to contact me directly.
 
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Texas Leaguer said:
@LbF,
I can probably shed some light on the challenges of shipping a stone of this value to a third party.

Yes, we regularly do provide this service on most of our diamonds. We have a page on our site that lists a number of independent appraisers around the country who we have vetted and who we are prepared to ship to on behalf of customers with whom they have scheduled consultations. That vetting includes verifying credentials of the appraiser, reputation in the trade, that business insurance is in place and that the premises are secured and monitored, and rated safes are available where valuables are stored, etc. We also add appraisers on request, providing they meet those requirements and share with us the needed documentation.

As you know we provide free insured shipping on all sales. Our standard shipping inurance has certain limits, as does our jewelers block policy that would cover the merchandise after delivery and while in possession of the appraiser. When the goods exceed those limits special arrangements must be made. Another dealer sending smaller samples may not run up against the need to make special arrangements.

Another point to consider, if the goal is to compare brand characteristics, is that certain visual perceptions will be altered based on size alone. It is therefore better to compare like size and quality in order to get a true sense of how the diamonds may or may not differ one brand to the next. Such an apples to apples comparison could probably be arranged with little difficulty if we know the specs on the stones being supplied by the other vendor.

I hope this makes sense. If I can provide any assistance or answer any questions, please feel free to contact me directly.
Click to expand...

Thank you for your reply. I was told that it could not be insured because of its value not because of the chosen appraiser? And yet this doesn't make sense because the appraiser is on the WF list that you just referenced in your post!
 
No advice here... just want to say I’m JEALOUS! And do not settle, with a budget like that your a diamond should be spectacular! I would consider custom cutting.
 
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Emeraldsaremyfavorite said:
No advice here... just want to say I’m JEALOUS! And do not settle, with a budget like that your a diamond should be spectacular! I would consider custom cutting.
Click to expand...

Same comment as above.
 
LbF said:
Thank you for your reply. I was told that it could not be insured because of its value not because of the chosen appraiser? And yet this doesn't make sense because the appraiser is on the WF list that you just referenced in your post!
Click to expand...

@LbF, in case you aren't aware Bryan (@Texas Leaguer) is the VP for WF. If I were in your shoes I would contact him directly via phone like he has suggested. I've seen Bryan bend over backwards to ensure his customers get the best service and are happy with their experience at WF. If you are willing to call him as suggested I have zero doubts he will do the same for you.

FYI, I would agree with the sentiments that comparing stones of equal size, color and clarity would be more representative of an apples to apples comparison. I would even go a little further to pick a stone with as close to identical proportions as possible. While there is a range of proportions that get you in ideal territory, certain combinations create different "personalities" of sorts and some people are attracted to one personality or another even though both stones may both be ideal.
 
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