Would love advice on foreign law degree programs

[Brown.Eyed.Girl]

Has anyone ever applied for a foreign LLM (in another country that is)? If so, pros and cons?

Based on my language abilities, I have a few options (especially Latin American countries and Spain) and I''d love to do this, but I''m not sure if it''s worth another year of adding on debt. The job market is just so awful though

And I''m not sure how to go about it - I looked up the Instituto de Empresa in Madrid (a friend of mine got her MBA from there) and it''s fairly straightforward for applying (2 letters of recommendation, LSAT results, law school transcript, resume, and essays) but I''m just not sure if it''s something I should pursue.

I do know that I''d like to spend the next year abroad, doing something - BF will be abroad as well so it''s really my last chance to live in another country, etc. And I think being enrolled would be better as far as loans go since at least they''ll be deferred (versus working at a low-paying job which won''t cover my living costs + payments). I''ve already applied for a Fulbright but of course, that''s not close to be guaranteed so I''m looking at other options too.

I speak Spanish well, and my reading and writing is better - though I''m not fluent. I can easily take upper level lit courses now though to improve that, plus the Instituto de Empresa''s program is in English. I''ve lived in Madrid before and taken classes there. Ugh, I just don''t know. I''d love some advice.

Thoughts? Thanks!

 

[stextc]

Take the chance and go!!
A year''s worth of debt can be fixed up during a lifetime of working.

 

[katamari]

I have a cousin who did this. It has created amazing opportunities for him. The best, in my opinion, is the ability to work abroad.

You mention that this would be your last year to live abroad. Does this mean you wouldn''t be willing to work abroad later? I think the firms or companies that would be most enticed by this type of training would be international ones who do significant business abroad. Although my cousin has worked in New York and Chicago, it has always been under the assumption that he would relocate should that be needed. If this is not the kind of work you are interested in, it might not be worth the extra debt.

I think that, at this point in your schooling, you should be focused on doing only the things that will help you secure the position you want. I am not in law and I do not know what type of position you are seeking, but I personally would not do anything in my own career life for the sake of opportunity alone. Instead, I would spend the time/money pursuing opportunities that would help me place in the position I am working toward. If you know that this would help you secure a job when you are looking, I do not believe that debt should be a reason to not pursue it--especially if it will help you earn a higher paying position. What do your professors think?

 

[Brown.Eyed.Girl]

Thanks guys!

Sorry Katamari, I misspoke. I meant that this would be the last time for me to go abroad in a non-work context (to study, etc.). I''m definitely open to working abroad later - in fact, BF also plans to as well in Asia. I can go to either Asia or a Latin American country based on the language skills I have, but of course, nothing is certain. The good thing about doing an LLM in a Spanish-speaking country is that I could get my Spanish to the level where it might be useful in an actual legal context, making me more marketable in that way (especially if I later try to join a firm that has a strong Latin American practice).

 

[katamari]

A million yeses, then, if you would enjoy/like to live in another country. I don''t think there is a price on being happy in your work and doing what it takes to get the position you want!

Being as how I am not a laywer, I would still talk to your profs about it if you haven''t yet, but I think it would be a wonderful idea.

 

[purrfectpear]

I think it would depend a lot on what sort of law you intended to practice?

I know for myself, there are several medical schools offshore. I also know that if I walked into a doctor''s office and that was where he graduated, I''d walk right out again. Ditto for an attorney. Now there may be people who won''t care at all. I know that I would. I have a strong perception (rightly or wrongly) that offshore degrees are for those who couldn''t make the cut in an ivy league school in the states.

 

[neatfreak]

Date: 11/16/2009 9:59:51 PM
Author: purrfectpear
I think it would depend a lot on what sort of law you intended to practice?


I know for myself, there are several medical schools offshore. I also know that if I walked into a doctor's office and that was where he graduated, I'd walk right out again. Ditto for an attorney. Now there may be people who won't care at all. I know that I would. I have a strong perception (rightly or wrongly) that offshore degrees are for those who couldn't make the cut in an ivy league school in the states.

I think this is in addition to, not in lieu of.

BEG-I say GO FOR IT. If this is your opportunity-take it. Anything to make yourself more marketable in this bad job market is a good thing.

And if BF wants to work in Asia eventually I would say it might make more sense for you to do your studies there. Since I assume you would move with him to Asia if the time came?

 

[Brown.Eyed.Girl]

Thanks so much for giving me your thoughts! You guys are so helpful!

Katamari I probably will talk to our Career Services Office and see what they say. The only negative really is that I''d be missing a year''s pay (although that''s almost a given considering the economy now) and my loans would accrue interest

Oh and tacking on another year''s worth of debt. Plus side, it could help in getting a good position afterward to make it easier to pay the loans off.

PP I''m thinking intellectual property (specifically, trademarks and copyrights - I''d love to do patent work but I don''t have an engineering or hard science background so it''d be difficult for me). This LLM would be in lieu of my JD - I''ll be graduating in 2010 from a top 10 law school, so hopefully no credibility issues!

Neatfreak Thanks for clearing up the LLM in lieu of issue

I would want to move with BF if he got seconded to Asia, but considering that that''s not a guaranteed thing, I''m still torn on Spanish-speaking country v. Asia. Expertise in litigation in a Spanish-speaking country might be more immediately useful (as far as getting a job in a year and half) than an LLM from an Asian country (and the country in question is NOT China, which would be superuseful, but alas, I have no Chinese speaking ability whatsoever). Plus the Asian country that I could eventually do work in actually doesn''t allow foreign law firms to establish offices there, so the entire practice is run from Hong Kong, so it just seems that the likelihood of me being in HK later (or BF) is slimmer, y''know?

 

[lucyandroger]

B.E.G., Is this something you were considering doing before the economy tanked?

If this is something you always wanted to do, then I say go for it. But if this is something you are planning now because you are nervous about getting a job in this economy, I would say don''t. You''d be tacking on an extra year of loans and probably not adding any extra pay in the future.

What kind of jobs will you be looking for afterwards?

If you''re considering law firms, most big firms that I know of don''t pay any extra for an LLM. If you''re already graduating from a top ten law school, I don''t think a foreign LLM will make it any more likely that you''d get a position at a firm.

Definitely check with your career services offices and talk to alumni from your law school that are currently in the position you''d like to see yourself in.

 

[Brown.Eyed.Girl]

Date: 11/17/2009 1:01:15 AM
Author: Brown.Eyed.Girl
Thanks so much for giving me your thoughts! You guys are so helpful!


Katamari I probably will talk to our Career Services Office and see what they say. The only negative really is that I''d be missing a year''s pay (although that''s almost a given considering the economy now) and my loans would accrue interest

Oh and tacking on another year''s worth of debt. Plus side, it could help in getting a good position afterward to make it easier to pay the loans off.


PP I''m thinking intellectual property (specifically, trademarks and copyrights - I''d love to do patent work but I don''t have an engineering or hard science background so it''d be difficult for me). This LLM would be in lieu of my JD - I''ll be graduating in 2010 from a top 10 law school, so hopefully no credibility issues!

Neatfreak Thanks for clearing up the LLM in lieu of issue

I would want to move with BF if he got seconded to Asia, but considering that that''s not a guaranteed thing, I''m still torn on Spanish-speaking country v. Asia. Expertise in litigation in a Spanish-speaking country might be more immediately useful (as far as getting a job in a year and half) than an LLM from an Asian country (and the country in question is NOT China, which would be superuseful, but alas, I have no Chinese speaking ability whatsoever). Plus the Asian country that I could eventually do work in actually doesn''t allow foreign law firms to establish offices there, so the entire practice is run from Hong Kong, so it just seems that the likelihood of me being in HK later (or BF) is slimmer, y''know?

And just to correct myself, I meant this is something in ADDITION to my JD, not in lieu of. I blame kittens walking over my keyboard for my "whoops" moment.

 

[Brown.Eyed.Girl]

Date: 11/17/2009 1:43:34 AM
Author: lucyandroger
B.E.G., Is this something you were considering doing before the economy tanked?


If this is something you always wanted to do, then I say go for it. But if this is something you are planning now because you are nervous about getting a job in this economy, I would say don''t. You''d be tacking on an extra year of loans and probably not adding any extra pay in the future.


What kind of jobs will you be looking for afterwards?


If you''re considering law firms, most big firms that I know of don''t pay any extra for an LLM. If you''re already graduating from a top ten law school, I don''t think a foreign LLM will make it any more likely that you''d get a position at a firm.


Definitely check with your career services offices and talk to alumni from your law school that are currently in the position you''d like to see yourself in.

Well that''s definitely the thing - a good part of my concern is the economy right now. And really the only super helpful LLM would be, say, a Tax LLM from NYU, which I''ll look into. And I''m definitely concerned about another $50K or so in loans. Ugh, I think I feel sick thinking about debt.

Lucy are you currently in law school? I was just noticing your sig - I''m a devoted reader of ATL

 

[lucyandroger]

Date: 11/17/2009 4:36:02 AM
Author: Brown.Eyed.Girl

Date: 11/17/2009 1:43:34 AM
Author: lucyandroger
B.E.G., Is this something you were considering doing before the economy tanked?


If this is something you always wanted to do, then I say go for it. But if this is something you are planning now because you are nervous about getting a job in this economy, I would say don't. You'd be tacking on an extra year of loans and probably not adding any extra pay in the future.


What kind of jobs will you be looking for afterwards?


If you're considering law firms, most big firms that I know of don't pay any extra for an LLM. If you're already graduating from a top ten law school, I don't think a foreign LLM will make it any more likely that you'd get a position at a firm.


Definitely check with your career services offices and talk to alumni from your law school that are currently in the position you'd like to see yourself in.

Well that's definitely the thing - a good part of my concern is the economy right now. And really the only super helpful LLM would be, say, a Tax LLM from NYU, which I'll look into. And I'm definitely concerned about another $50K or so in loans. Ugh, I think I feel sick thinking about debt.

Lucy are you currently in law school? I was just noticing your sig - I'm a devoted reader of ATL

Not in law school anymore...I'm a junior associate in big law.

If I were you, I would seriously consider looking for opportunities to volunteer or intern if you can't find a paying job rather than taking on more loans. You can always defer your loans an extra 6 months if you don't have a paying job when they come due.

Unless you are seriously committed to tax law which I don't think you are since you mentioned wanting to go into IP, I would not spend $50k on the NYU tax LLM. My SO is a tax attorney in big law and the only people he sees with LLMs are people who went to a lower tiered law school and then got the LLM from a more prestigious law school or are older attorneys who got it when it was more common. And the tax LLM REALLY won't be worth it if you're not planning to go into tax.

I must say that law school loans are crushing and I'm afraid by taking on more, you'll limit your career options rather than expand them. I would love to do and try lots of other positions but I couldn't get a salary like this anywhere else so until loans are paid off, this is where I'll be (knock on wood).

Maybe look into doing a language program abroad and interning at a foreign law firm or getting a paralegal job at a foreign branch office of a US firm? Maybe there are legal services organizations abroad that could use the help? That would be an amazing experience and a lot cheaper than an LLM for sure.

 

[NovemberBride]

Ditto LucyandRoger. I worked in biglaw in NYC and Philadelphia, and neither of the firms I worked for gave credit(bump in salary) for an LLM. In addition, I did a lot of recruiting for my NYC firm, and an LLM made no difference in the hiring decisions (with the possible exception of tax, although we typically hired the candidate who we wanted and the firm paid for them to get an NYU Tax LLM if they wanted). That said, I did not do any international work, so it is possible the foreign LLM could be valuable if you intend to try to work in a particular country. I would ask your career services office for advice on that point. Even in that case, I would only do it if I had definite plans to seek a job in a particular country. If you are unable to find a legal job after graduation and are interested in living abroad, I would consider just moving abroad for a year and working in another field rather than taking on additional debt that probably won''t help your job prospects.

I know it is daunting to be coming out of law school now and I feel terribly for all of the law students who are without jobs. I came out of law school just as the tech bubble was bursting and the market was pretty bad then too (although admittedly not as bad as it is right now). The good news is that all of my law school friends i kept in touch with are doing fine, even the ones who couldn''t find biglaw jobs. I wish you the best of luck.

 

[Harriet]

BEG,

I''m sorry that you''re graduating at this time. Hopefully, ''10 will be better than ''09.

Unless you plan to practise in Spain specifically, I''d advise against piling on your student debt. As for your current debt, perhaps you can talk to the bank concerned. If I remember correctly, there''s a 6-month grace period anyway.

With respect to tax law, pursue it only if you''re convinced that that''s what you''d like to do. Tax lawyers are a, shall we say, unique breed. Given your school''s standing (you''ve mentioned its name before), you''re placed to find a position in tax law, provided that you''ve taken the main classes. If your firm (I believe you''ll land on your feet

) wants you to have the NYU LLM, it''ll pay for it.

Have you thought about a law-related volunteer position for the time being?

 

[Brown.Eyed.Girl]

Thank you so much guys. I really appreciate your help, and I think after reading all of your replies, a foreign LLM isn''t my best option at this point. If I do end up applying to one, I''ll probably do it in Korea where I have the language abilities (and because I want to do cross-border stuff eventually). I applied to a couple more Korean law firms for Foreign Attorney positions, and I''m still, of course, waiting to hear about the Fulbright (and will be waiting for a while).

Harriet, thanks for the encouragement!

I wouldn''t mind volunteer work, but I''m afraid that financially it might not be possible. My school''s LRAP program really really stinks (I think if I had the advantage of foresight, I would''ve chosen a different school with a better LRAP plan

). And though I''d have a grace period, afterward I wouldn''t be able to meet my repayment schedule.

L&R, a paralegal position is a great idea. I will definitely look into that - thank you!

NovemberBride, it really does stink, though I know there are people in much worse positions. I''m just telling myself that this economic downturn can''t last forever! I''m also looking into some political consulting positions and seeing where that goes too.