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Worst experience with a vet?

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justginger

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I had a terrible vet.
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Terrible.

Once, Bella, my Great Dane ate some bedding. She seemed to be passing it out fine, and the vet told me to monitor it. All was well, until she vomited a couple of days later and it still had bedding in it. Obviously it hadn''t all passed, like we thought.

I first called the vet, who reduced me to tears by calling me "maliciously negligent" and saying that if I didn''t want to pay for the treatment of an animal, I wasn''t fit to be its owner.
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I had a kitten die THREE WEEKS earlier after abdominal surgery, hence my slight apprehension of having her under the knife until it was a necessary evil.

The vet operated, Bella got better. Except when I went to pick her up, she had a big (5-6 inches) patch of raw skin on her shoulder. The vet said that when the nurse rubbed that area, it just sloughed off and she had never seen anything like it. I took her home, kept her on antibiotics, and watched as a giant scab formed. I kept waiting for it to fall off and it didn''t. Finally I came home one afternoon and noticed it had developed an odor. It was obviously infected.

I returned to the vet (a glutton for punishment
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), and once again was treated like a stupid child. I was told that I was "quite possibly the worst owner" she had ever seen. She used the most aggressive tone of voice and choice of words -- and it was the THIRD time she made me cry! She told me that it was obviously a fast developing tumor and I needed to approve immediate surgery.

The whole situation seemed off. I managed to convince her to send me home with antibiotics ($120!) over the long weekend, on the condition I would call during the week and schedule her cancer treatments to begin.

I immediately went to another vet for a second opinion (his clinic is over an hour away and he''s worth every single second of the drive!), and was told that it was a deep abscess that had been, more than likely, caused by an injectible that she was given during/after her surgery.
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Not cancer at all. The second vet saw her, cut off the scab, excised the necrotic tissue, packed the wound, and sent me home with more antibiotics, painkillers, and antiseptic cream for -- $40.

I have been fuming at the first vet ever since. I resisted any angry words until this evening; I just wrote a three page letter to her and fully intend to send it. She treated me like rubbish and charged me the earth (her initial abdominal surgery was just short of $3000 -- a procedure the second vet said he would have charged approximately $1800 for). Can you even imagine what would have happened if she had started CANCER TREATMENT on a dog with an abscess (caused by her, to add insult to injury)???
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I will never forget the venomous words she spewed at me.
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I don''t know how she stays in business.

Does anyone else have a terrible vet story? Or am I the only one in the world who managed to find such a horrible specimen?
 
Do you have a governing body for veterinarians in the US that you could discuss this with? Did she even take biopsies of the affected area?
 
justginger--That's horrible. I think it's a great suggestion to see if there's somewhere to report this person. The way you were treated is unbelievable.

We've been through a series of bad vets, it seems that there are a lot of them out there.

The worst experience we had with one was when Geddy (of my avatar fame) had just been home with us for a couple days. We adopted him from a shelter, and we sensed that he was being very cautious, but thought maybe he was just a super timid cat. We took him to the vet the first day we had him to get him checked out, he received a clean bill of health, so when he was acting so timid we figured it might just be his personality.

After a couple days of this, though, we brought him back in. We explained that he squirmed when we picked him up, he seemed uncomfortable, etc, and the vet pretty much blew us off as being paranoid before he even looked at Geddy again. He did a quick physical check, ran a bunch of expensive blood tests, and checked his urine. Turns out there were crystals in his urine, so the vet called us back in with Geddy so he could probe further.

In all, I think we brought Geddy in three times after that initial visit, and this vet ran a gamut of tests on him, yet found NOTHING. I don't remember the cost, but it was a lot.

After three weeks of this, all we had was a lighter pocket and a still unhappy (seeming) kitty.

We decided to get a second opinion, so we went to another veterinarian. This one figured out the problem within minutes of meeting Geddy--his prepuce was completely blocking his ability to urinate. Our poor baby had likely been in extreme discomfort if not pain because whenever he urinated it remained in his body. This vet also told us that there is no way the other vet could have missed this if they collected urine samples--they would have had to move his prepuce by hand to collect the samples. (Which they did, THREE TIMES!)

We rushed Geddy to another animal hospital where they did emergency surgery, which cost $1500, and relieved the poor guy's pain. (Hence the e-collar around his neck in my avatar.)

DH called the first vet and scheduled a meeting with him. I don't know the details about what was said, but needless to say we were refunded every single dime that we paid.

I don't think I had ever felt so angry towards a relative stranger. All I could think about was how painful this all must have been for Geddy, and how the first vet's ignorance prolonged his pain, and could have possibly led to a much worse condition.
 
I''m so sorry for your experience justginger! That''s just awful!

I had the sweetest little kitten named Rhett Butler. One day we noticed that his eyes went from green to a hazy brown.. I had to go home for Christmas break so my then boyfriend and his mom were taking care of him. They took him to a vet, who recommended an animal ophthalmologist. The vet said she was 90% positive it was feline herpes, gave him some eye drops and said to come back in two days.

Well, first time he gives little Rhett these eye drops, the poor guy starts foaming at the mouth. The vet didn''t mention that this was a common side effect, so my ex was freaking out, thinking he killed the cat. When he called the vet was incredibly rude and irritated.

So, two days later he goes back in, the little guys eyes haven''t changed. She yelled at my ex telling him that he needed to "Take care of his kitten" and that he was being a horrible pet owner. He felt awful and didn''t understand why he was being yelled at, when he obviously cared.

A week later the two of us go back in. She is screaming at us, telling us that we will be responsible for the death of this kitten if we don''t give him the eye drops.... Well we were giving him two different types of eye drops three times a day! I started crying.. My older sister is a feline vet in the Seattle area, so I called her. She immediately found me another vet. I take Rhett in, she looks at him for thirty seconds and is appalled that anyone would have diagnosed him with feline herpes.

She tested him for a few things, including FIP... which it ended up being. So, after all of that yelling and crying, my poor baby had a 100% fatal, untreatable disease.

The ex called the first vet back and explained to her what had happened and that we would like our money back (upwards of $500). She hung up on him after calling him a liar. So, his mom stepped in and eventually we got our money back.. Grrr. Every time I pass that place on the highway I get mad!
 
OUpear--
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I remember that. I''m so sorry for your loss.
 
OMG you guys-how awful!

OU, we had to put my kitten down shortly after we got married due to FIP-it''s so hard!

We''ve got a great vet in town-super gentle and calming. We''ve had problems with 2 different front desk workers tho. The one they have now is just the rudest, eye rollingest woman I''ve ever come in contact with.

The one before that, I had always thought was pretty nice. After we got married, we had 3 pit bulls, and built a large fenced in kennel, in the fenced in back yard. Sadie, the eldest and Houdini type, would jump over the fence, so every day I''d come home at lunch and she''d be on the back deck. JD was working nights, so he was sleeping during the day. One day, in July, I came home at lunch, Sadie wasn''t on the back deck and I looked out the patio doors at the kennel-and there our dog HUNG by her back leg. I ran out there-the fence was so tall, she couldn''t get her front legs to the ground, and I couldn''t lift her. All she could do was lick my hand. I tore into the house and got JD up, and he lifted her off the fence. I called the vet to tell them what happened and that we were on our way. She says "Oh, well, Steve''s at lunch, so he won''t be back for another hour or so" UM hello?? I told her to page him and have him come back, she refused. I hung up on her, and we went out there. When we got there, nobody was at the front desk, we rang the bell over and over, still nobody. So I got ticked and went into the back, where she sat w/the large animal secretary, taking break. I''m like "Uh yeah, could we get some G*damn help up front??" Roll eyes, heavy sigh, "yeah yeah" she comes up front and looks at Sadie and goes "OMG what the hell happened?" I said "Well good lord I TOLD you what happened not 5 G*damn minutes ago on the PHONE and you told me to WAIT!" So she paged the vet and had him come immediately. He ended up having to amputate her leg, after we tried a few days of casting it, to see if the blood would start flowing again. It was broke in 4 different places, and the tendons and everything had been so stretched out, he didn''t think casting it would work, but didn''t want to take her leg w/out trying.

It takes a special person to work with animals, and I can''t understand how people can be so callous.
 
Date: 7/21/2009 10:47:39 AM
Author: Lorelei
Do you have a governing body for veterinarians in the US that you could discuss this with? Did she even take biopsies of the affected area?

Ditto-there has to be some body that you can make a complaint-that''s a ridiculous way to treat a client and an animal.
 
I am so sorry this happened to you.

But you not only should report it to a regulatory body - you absolutely have an obligation to. Too many people turn a blind eye to these things and it ends up hurting someone else and their pet - how would you feel if she had started unnecessary cancer treatment? I can pretty much guarantee she will just throw away your 3-page letter without reading it. Send it to your state''s veterinary governing body instead.
 
That is heartbreaking and totally completely unacceptable behaviour from a vet! She should lose her license and be sued. I''m sorry you went through that.

I have a very clinical approach to my animals. I discuss options, I don''t immediately jump to expensive tests. I ask questions. I even say right out what I will and will not accept as far as treatment options, shots and testing. Our oldest dog is 13. I have told the vet no desperate measures, but he has to be comfortable, minimal testing, non-invasive treatment. They provide a service and should listen. They can advise, but they shouldn''t judge. Inform yes, judge no. I do believe they all try to upsell, that is part of most businesses, and vets are in business after all. I just say no to extras.
 
I would also contact the BBB.
 
Oh, my god - JustGinger, Haven, OUPearGirl, PackRat, I am so sorry you guys have had encounters with such wretched doctors. It is unconscionable to me that a vet would ever use guilt to bludgeon an owner into unnecessary treatment, if not outright criminal. JustGinger, definitely report this!

I lost a v. loved cat last year when I took her to the vet for a routine check-up, and she had a seizure when the vet. ran a probe over her belly, apparently triggering an attack. She died 4 hours later. I oscillated back and forth between feeling horribly guilty for ... I don''t know, bringing her in at all, not having insisted on accompanying her everywhere, anything and everything that you can imagine, and at being horribly angry at the vet for not having forseen an impossible and unlikely scenario. But the vet was thoughtful and sympathetic and sincere, and it made a really terrible time ... well, nothing could have made it less terrible, but if the vet had attempted to imply that it was somehow my fault, I ... would not have taken it well. No one in such a sensitive position of authority should abuse it ....
 
I am sorry that you and your pets have to go through these terrible treatments. I''d look up on rating/comments about a vet office before I schedule an appointment with the vet.
 
justginger, I would LOVE to hear how your first vet replies!
 
These stories make me ill. We don''t particularly care for our current vet because we feel she''s too quick to suggest expensive testing and courses of treatment. For example, at our first puppy visit she noticed that our dog D.O.G. had a bit of entropion on/in his right eye (very common in chow chows). She immediately suggested immediate surgery for it that would cost upwards of $1800 for what she considered a very minor case. We decided to wait because our last chow Piju had the same thing as a puppy and he outgrew it. D.O.G. has since grown out of his entropion and surgery would be been entirely unnecessary. That being said. She clearly adores all animals and only wants the best for them. I think she just forgets that we all want the best for them, but just because expensive tests and treatments are available doesn''t mean they have to be used immediately or at all in some cases.
 
Wow, I think I would include in your letter what a wonderful owner you are, that you treat your furry family member, like a HUMAN BEING, and got a 2nd oppinion. That oppinion was that SHE CAUSED THE ABCESS, and you would like a refund for the bills you spent for the TX she gave for that, and the bill from the 2nd vet since it was a DIRECT RESULT OF HER NEGLIGENCE!!!!! - and if no response - take her to small claims court.

And put in a claim w/ the BBB>

I am sorry you had to go through with this.
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Our vet is a gruff, cranky old codger we call Dr. House.

I thought he was rude and obnoxious until I read these posts. Oh. My. Word. Shocking, appalling behavior!!!
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I am so sorry for you guys!
 
When I first rescued my starving kitty, Mouse, from the outside of Starbucks, I took her to the vet. This vet told us that she had been spayed. She is strictly an outdoors cat. I guess the people who "owned" her before us didn''t acclimate her to the inside of a home or something because she completely spazzes inside the house. It''s really sad because she''s possibly the most loving cat in the world. She stops all of the neighbors for love...

Anyway, a little more than a year later, Mouse was PREGNANT! Toward the end of her pregnancy, I turned my spare room into a kitty nursery. It was strange, she was fine in the house while pregnant and raising kittens, but then right back to spazoid once the kittens were gone. (I tried to make her an indoor cat after being pregnant.) So, this error by the vet, led us to have to get shots, and spaying/neutering for five kittens, find excellent homes for all of them, SEVERE carpet damage, and sadness...because truth be told, I would have kept them all IF I knew I could keep them happy. I thought I was going to be objective and clinical about the kittens, then I had them all named in two days!
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It was quite an experience. I would never ever do it again. I guess, though, in some ways, it was sweet.

BTW..Mouse is spayed now.

Here were my grandbabies.

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I think maybe you guys are right -- I should probably reformat the letter completely and send it to a governing body of some sort instead of her. I am in Australia (though was raised in the States with a fabulous vet, whom I miss terribly!), so I''d have to educate myself about their version of BBB, etc.

I would really like to get my $120 back, considering she was the one who did the initial damage that made antibiotics necessary. It was just such a terrible experience (well, experienceS) that after Bella was finally on the mend, I put it out of my head. I think all of this happened in mid-May and I''ve been trying to forget it ever since!

It seems to me that some vets are only in it for the perceived money, no different than some callous doctors you run across.
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I used to live in a neighborhood with a feral cat problem. I was feeding this half feral momma cat and her adorable Siamese mix kittens. I got them inside, tamed them up as best I could, worked with a rescue, got them neutered & shots and got them adopted. No problems there. However, my sister found a 2nd litter in the neighborhood and we took them in hoping to do the same for then. Unfortunately after a few days they were not looking good. My sister and I rushed one to the emergency vet. They did all these treatments on him and he still died. I believe the cost was $1200. The kittens had feline panleukopenia, which is usually fatal and hard to cure. All the kittens died, I just wished that the vet had been more forthcoming with us, that $1200 would have done more good donated to a local cat charity.
 
Also, my own cat wasn''t feeling well once and I took her to the vet. She had the symptoms of kidney failure. I said "She''s only 16, she''s still got life left" and the vet said "My own cat didn''t live till 10 and I''m a doctor".
 
I don't think I should read this thread. My man's a vet...
I think a LOT of misunderstandings can easily occur because

1. Veterinary care is a very complicated scientific field, and a lot of people don't really understand the boring details of evidence-based medicine. Myself included. When I first met my husband I wanted to put rescue remedy in all the animals' water bowls! Just because an event happens, it's important not to jump to conclusions. A lot of clients really get their facts plain wrong. Not their fault, they haven't done the degree.

2. A lot of people get confused between the technical side (the important side) of veterinary medicine and the touchy feely 'I love animals' side of veterinary medicine. One is important, in reality the other is pretty much marketing. Put it this way, if you had to see a medical specialist, would you like to see the gruff expert, or the complimentary newbie? All vets love animals, that's why they went into the field. But sometimes, the best ones can turn into old codgers along the way.

3. Because it is a user-pays system (assuming no insurance) people naturally become preoccupied with price. However, the vets job is generally to provide the best health advice, not financial advice. Most vets SHOULD start with 'best practice' approaches, and then work down the list until they find one that gels with your wallet. If that upsets you, that's not really their fault.

4. Like any professional group, there are good ones and bad ones. However, most users of their services are often not in a good position to judge. Like me and my accountant. Do I have a good accountant? Really couldn't be sure. It's kind of a shame because sometimes the best vets have the most outrageous claims made against them, and poorer vets are classed as geniuses, generally because they cut corners and save clients money...

anyway I hope this can shed some light into the other side of things. Most vets don't make too much money, especially considering the level of qualifications and skills they need to have. There is a high drop out rate in the profession.
 
I can appreciate the other side of the coin, Lara, but I still don''t think there is any excuse for such hateful words, and such immediate (incorrect) diagnosis with no pathological testing suggested whatsoever. To me, it''s akin to a doctor wanting to give me a mastectomy because I have an infected duct in my breast, without considering any other possibilities first.

This was certainly not meant to insult the vet industry at all -- a good vet, like I have found in the second individual, is worth their weight in gold and not a cent less.
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I imagine your own partner would feel unhappy about a nasty vet, as they are such poor representations of the field.
 
Yeah, unfortunately there are a few crazy apples in every bunch, no? I have to admit, reading stories about bad vet experiences does kind of upset me, so I didn't read right through the thread.

Interestingly, we have had an experience when a client wrongly accused us of diagnosing her pet with a cancerous growth. She was incredibly angry about it... when we hadn't even got to the stage of taking a test!

The fact was she came in to the consultation hysterical, and, worried sick, prodded my husband, asking him again and again if the mysterious growth could possibly be cancer. At first he said it was not likely to be cancer, but then when she refused to take the test 'because it wasn't cancer anyway' he had to admit there was a chance it could be... and that was enough for her to refuse to pay for the test when it came back as benign!

But that is a completely separate case, having an infection at an injection site... ew... I often say to my husband that if they have health inspectors for restaurants, they should have them for vet clinics... Using accredited vet hospitals (meaning that they have jumped through a whole lot of hoops to prove they are best practice) is probably an important form of protection for clients.

In many cases, vets feel terribly unsupported in their profession, and as all their equipment has to be paid for out of their own pocket, perhaps some clinics are not operating to these best-practices. I've heard some stories!

But there's no real help in 'talking shop' in my favourite forum, is there? So I'll bow out for now, with warm wishes to you and of course for your Bella.
 
Date: 7/22/2009 7:34:49 AM
Author: justginger
I can appreciate the other side of the coin, Lara, but I still don't think there is any excuse for such hateful words, and such immediate (incorrect) diagnosis with no pathological testing suggested whatsoever. To me, it's akin to a doctor wanting to give me a mastectomy because I have an infected duct in my breast, without considering any other possibilities first.

This was certainly not meant to insult the vet industry at all -- a good vet, like I have found in the second individual, is worth their weight in gold and not a cent less.
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I imagine your own partner would feel unhappy about a nasty vet, as they are such poor representations of the field.
Thats the thing, how on earth can a vet make a definitive diagnosis of cancer without a biopsy? My point - a great vet is worth THEIR WEIGHT IN GOLD and I am so grateful for mine who are wonderful and I let them know that, however there are bad apples as you find everywhere. Just because you can be a vet doesn't mean you should be one, and my belief is if you find one who is making unprofessional decisions and diagnosis without following protocols PLUS being nasty to the client, then something needs to be done to protect not only yourself and your furbaby but for the sake of others and their companion animals.
 
TBH, sounds like she was on the edge of having a nervous breakdown!
Lots of vets really do go a bit crazy, it''s a pretty unsupported profession, a lot of them have money hassles (specially the single-vet outfits) so they get a bit weird.
Don''t worry Ginger, don''t go back.
 
This isn't nearly as bad as some of the stories, but recently I had to put my gerbil to sleep and I took him to the place down the street from me that the animal shelter uses for their dogs. I have a fantastic exotic vet, but they are 40 min away and I was sure he would need to be put down, so I figured it didn't matter if I took him to the local place. I get in and tell the vet that he just turned 3 and the vets starts telling me how old that is and how most gerbils don't live past 1 or 2
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Maybe he was thinking of mice? I've had 11 gerbils and almost all lived past the age of 3 and everything I read says 3-5. So that was a bad sign, but since he was just putting the little guy down, I didn't really care if he knew what he was doing.

So then I get out in the lobby and they hand me a bill for $168!! Ridiculous! For such a small animal, I can't see how they could possibly charge more than $100. Never going back to that vet again, even if I do get a dog (which they're apparently good with).

ETA: My amazing exotic vet put another gerbil to sleep for me for $80.
 
Date: 7/21/2009 10:44:03 AM
Author:justginger
I had a terrible vet.
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Terrible.

I returned to the vet (a glutton for punishment
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), and once again was treated like a stupid child. I was told that I was 'quite possibly the worst owner' she had ever seen. She used the most aggressive tone of voice and choice of words -- and it was the THIRD time she made me cry! She told me that it was obviously a fast developing tumor and I needed to approve immediate surgery.

Does anyone else have a terrible vet story? Or am I the only one in the world who managed to find such a horrible specimen?
I am so sorry you experienced such a negative experience with your vet.

My current cat is the first and only cat I have ever had. After adopting her from a local rescue group, I took her to the local vet for a wellness check, just because I wanted to make sure she was ok and to get to know the vet and her practice. The cat, had gone through much change and I was told by her foster mom that she does not like other animals and is difficult at the vet, all of which I explained to the vet. My cat was very aggressive, did not bite, but hissed, growled, etc. Clearly, she was very scared and I started to doubt my decision to even have brought her in.

The vet grew very frusterated because she was afraid that my cat would bite her, so I did my best to calm the cat down (she did not even bite me), but the vet got so frusterated, she asked me if I abuse my cat! She said that she could not understand why she was behaving in such a way. I almost started to cry, but my FI reminded her that the cat was abused by her former owner, not by us, which we had already explained.

The vet realized shortly that my cat was all bark and no bite, so she finished the exam and I NEVER went back to her. I felt so demoralized. The main reason why I even took my cat there was because the practice had a history of treating animals at another local animal shelter, so I thought they would be used to dealing with troubled animals like my cat.

However, when she needed a minor surgery a year later, I did take her back to the practice, but to a different vet. All went well until I had to bring her home. The vet was very frusterated and lectured me about how my cat was mean and tried to bite everyone there. It was almost as if I were being lectured by a teacher about my child's bad behavior in school. Then she stated, and I will never forget her words; "despite her behavior, we felt like we had to perform the procedure, as it was the ethical thing to do." After stating that, she had this look in her face as if she should be considered a saint. Though the surgery was a success and I felt that they did a good job, I could not bring myself to return to that practice.

About 3 months ago, I had to take my cat into the emergency vet because she had been vomitting. I was hesitant because I was afraid I would get yelled at again, but this time we went to a different place. I let them know she was a difficult cat and they treated her. When the vet sat us down to discuss what they had done for her, I kept apologizing about her behavior. The vet eventually told me to calm down and that her behavior was NORMAL for a sick cat. She also added that cats tend to be difficult when being treated, whether they had been given up for adoption, or raised in a loving home their entire life. Such a different experience!
 
Oh, I''m so sensitive. I hate to hear about animals in pain. I feel myself getting all misty. Poor little furries.
 
My vet had just graduated and obtained her license, so I wanted to give her the benefit of the doubt. I didn't mind that she learned as she went because there are other vets at the office to oversee and she always asked if she had a question. My cat had a history of UTIs and blockages before I adopted him. The rescue league didn't reveal this to me and my vet didn't notice the scar or that he had an extra pee hole even after his numerous office visits and check ups until she was going to take him in for emergency surgery because he hadn't peed in a few hours and she thought he was blocked. I got a phone call 1/2 hour after I dropped him off, bawling because I couldn't afford it but had to find a way and scared something was going to happen to him. She basically said oops, he can't get blocked because he already had the surgery for it, that I could come get him. She still charged me for all the services and every time I have to bring him in for the same symptoms she patronizes me and treats me like I'm a crazy cat lady. He has had some behavioral issues on and off like randomly not eating for a few days, lots of vomiting, strong urine, lethargy, peeing outside the box, meowing all day/night, and it's hard to tell if he has a UTI or he's just acting out because the symptoms mimic each other...so I have to drag him in every time because of his history and because he just got over a 6 week antibiotic course for pyelonephritis a few months ago....I can't just ignore the symptoms for a few days because he can end up really sick, and he ends up having a UTI more than 50% of the time I bring him in to get checked. I brought him in about a month ago for his 10 week urine recheck after being treated for pyelo and the vet tech came out and asked why I was here to check his urine, that there was no record of him having pyelonephritis and that the vet never said he had to have a urine recheck. My vet came out and asked me who referred me to the animal hospital my cat had his ultrasound at and I told her that she did and she denied it telling me she okay'd one a long time ago and there was nothing on record for the timeframe I was telling her...she condescended me in front of the entire waiting room, made me feel really stupid and like I was going crazy. Then she flipped a page and found all the notes and his diagnosis and to come in for a urine recheck...she started arguing that I wasn't supposed to get it rechecked at that date, then calculated and realized I was right. No apology and continued to act like I was bothering her, said she'd send the urine off and call me with the results and then walked away. I swear she made me feel like I had cat Munchausen syndrome or something, like I wanted to bring my cat in for fun...I've paid over $3,000 in medical bills since I adopted him last January and believe me, I'd much prefer to let him enjoy his years here at home not having to frequently get poked to check for UTIs, not to mention save all that money, but it was my choice to adopt him and my responsibility to care for him. He's brought me so much joy despite all the problems. We just moved and I'll be switching vets for sure. I don't deserve to be treated like that and my cat doesn't deserve to be brushed off.
 
I worked at a vet for about a year and the older of the two was as horrible as you described. He turned away a kitten that feel from a balcony because he was "on the phone." I went straight to the owner and didn''t stay much longer after that.

Unfortunately there are people like that in the world. I wish I could have been there. I am NOT one to be talked down too...
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