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Why don''t we care?

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Date: 7/26/2009 1:52:51 PM
Author:kribbie
http://www.fairhome.co.uk/2008/11/11/maldives-may-be-abandoned-by-2100/
Click to expand...
Who says "we" don''t? But honestly, what can we do about it? Whatever your stance on global warming - whether you believe it to be man-made (I lean this way, for the record) or whether you see it as part of a natural rhythym, this has been building for a long time. It will not be reversed in a year or 10 or 30, and I''ve read more than one scientist express the opinion that we are already past the point where DOING anything would make much difference in the direction the climate is moving, for at least another 100 years. If man-made emissions are the primary cause, then we are surely screwed, because while the Western world is becoming more committed to reducing emissions, the Eastern world, eager to become the producing and consuming jauggernaut ala the West, won''t commit to anything. So where does that leave us? Zero-sum game or worse, I''d say. I''d say everyone''d better brace for a rough go in the decades ahead. Hope everybody''s AC is working. We could even see the return of famine to North America.
I just have a feeling that human nature is inclined to not believe the worst until it is flat-out slapping them in the face.

And if the Maldives can anticipate the future problem, they''d better get a move on solving it today, however they can. They''re going to be a drop in the bucket compared to what may happen later, and whining right now, when we can''t even seem to agree why this is happening, is effort better spent saving their own butts.
 
I bet your local weatherman can''t even get the 10-day forecast correct, so I wouldn''t put any stock into this article
1.gif


Some scientists say the temperature of the Earth has increased over the past 80 years, some scientists say that the Earth has cooled over the past decade and we are headed into a mini ice-age. Some scientists ay CO2 has a warming effect on the Earth, some say it has a cooling effect on the Earth.

In any case, I agree with K. There is nothing to be done. Even if you do believe that global-climate change is man-made (I do not), our focus should be on destroying cattle. According to a United Nations report, "Livestock are responsible for 18 per cent of the greenhouse gases that cause global warming, more than cars, planes and all other forms of transport put together." Save the Maldives! Kill the cows!
 
I agree that this is the general attitude, and I won''t get into all of it here, but as an environmental lawyer I am alarmed.
The fact is, IT CAN STILL BE TURNED AROUND! It''s just convenient to believe that it can''t.
We are just too comfortable in our cushy little lives to actually give a damn about it, and form part of mass action to put pressure on our governments to be more pro-active in saving our planet and our species. God forbid we are inconvenienced in any way.
Recent studies show that the ocean levels are rising twice as fast as originally anticipated. What will it take for us to sit up and pay attention?
The Maldives under water? Obviously not.

How about some of England? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/5024580/Scilly-Isles-could-have-to-be-abandoned-because-of-global-warming.html

California? http://www.usnews.com/blogs/capital-commerce/2009/02/04/obama-adviser-chu-global-warming-may-force-california-to-be-abandoned.html

Does anyone else feel the way I do about this?
 
I think climate change has gotten so wrapped up in politics that once people admit it''s very real and very manmade, it will be too late.

Take NEL''s livestock example. Raising livestock is absolutely terrible for the environment. The energy and resources it takes to raise cattle is very, very high. Plus livestock contributes to global warming. Well let''s stop raising so many cattle, then! Red meat isn''t good for us, anyway, and the amount of red meat we consume is likely a contributor to the alarming rates of obesity in the U.S.

Tilapia, on the other hand, is an extremely efficient protein to raise. The resources it takes to raise tilapia is equal to the output of tilapia meat, so it''s completely balanced. I can''t recall the exact ratio for cattle right now but it is terrible. I was blown away when I learned how much it takes to raise cattle vs. tilapia or even other fish or livestock, like chickens.

But will America ever really stop raising so much cattle and start raising tilapia? I doubt it! Too much money is to be made, so screw the environment!
 
Date: 7/27/2009 8:59:31 PM
Author: thing2of2
I think climate change has gotten so wrapped up in politics that once people admit it''s very real and very manmade, it will be too late.

Take NEL''s livestock example. Raising livestock is absolutely terrible for the environment. The energy and resources it takes to raise cattle is very, very high. Plus livestock contributes to global warming. Well let''s stop raising so many cattle, then! Red meat isn''t good for us, anyway, and the amount of red meat we consume is likely a contributor to the alarming rates of obesity in the U.S.

Tilapia, on the other hand, is an extremely efficient protein to raise. The resources it takes to raise tilapia is equal to the output of tilapia meat, so it''s completely balanced. I can''t recall the exact ratio for cattle right now but it is terrible. I was blown away when I learned how much it takes to raise cattle vs. tilapia or even other fish or livestock, like chickens.

But will America ever really stop raising so much cattle and start raising tilapia? I doubt it! Too much money is to be made, so screw the environment!
Click to expand...
This is a very true point. We can do more to help slow global warming by getting people to eat less beef and other meat. McDonald''s and other fast food chains have made beef consumption a daily event for many when it should be a delicacy. The fact that many of us are clinically obese ins''t a coincidence either.

I ate meat in ignorant bliss for lamost 35 years, completely unaware of the heinous, inhumane, and environmentally detrimental pactices needed to feed our seemingly endless hunger for beef (and pork and chicken). Even if you can dismiss the suffering and butchering of these animals as morally acceptible, the waste and emissions from factory farming are disasterous for our environment. I would love to see legal advocates get more involved in THAT aspect of the issue.
 
Date: 7/27/2009 8:59:31 PM
Author: thing2of2
I think climate change has gotten so wrapped up in politics that once people admit it''s very real and very manmade, it will be too late.

Take NEL''s livestock example. Raising livestock is absolutely terrible for the environment. The energy and resources it takes to raise cattle is very, very high. Plus livestock contributes to global warming. Well let''s stop raising so many cattle, then! Red meat isn''t good for us, anyway, and the amount of red meat we consume is likely a contributor to the alarming rates of obesity in the U.S.

Tilapia, on the other hand, is an extremely efficient protein to raise. The resources it takes to raise tilapia is equal to the output of tilapia meat, so it''s completely balanced. I can''t recall the exact ratio for cattle right now but it is terrible. I was blown away when I learned how much it takes to raise cattle vs. tilapia or even other fish or livestock, like chickens.

But will America ever really stop raising so much cattle and start raising tilapia? I doubt it! Too much money is to be made, so screw the environment!
Click to expand...
This is so true. I have been vegetarian for years because I just couldn''t see the point of doing something that caused so much harm to myself and to others just to fuel my body. Eat to live, don''t live to eat.
The same can be said for oil companies. Are there alternatives? Yes. But will our governments move away from the billions of dollars that the oil companies throw their way? No. Absolute greed.
If you do some research, the scientists and politicians who do not support the theory of man-made global warming are all funded by oil companies.
 

Please do feel free to get into all of it here. Please tell me the science, the hard cold science - HOW - it will be turned around. Slowed down perhaps, mitigated a bit, but turned around? From what I''ve read, even environmental scientists are in disagreement as to whether "it can be turned around" now. And you display the unspoken assumption that the US and Europe are somehow in control of this, and will be the ones to pull us out if only we can bring enough pressure on our governments. In fact, I would say the US, with its short-term view of history and insistence on immediate gratification and results, is as ill-suited to this task as any country could be. In any case, until the countries ramping up their industrial bases, believe the same thing, and don''t believe it is the West trying to keep them stuck in the 19th century when they''ve decided otherwise, what we do will have small effect.


I DO believe that we should position ourselves at the forefront of green technologies though. Especially those that mitigate the effects of climate change. What else is going to drive whatever economic recovery we aspire to have? Our financial "industry" and standing is in the toilet, our manufacturing of goods is non-existent, and the car industry is moribund. We need to position ourselves to be at the forefront of something.


I personally am willing to do the things I can, and I do. I keep worms, I compost all kitchen waste, have a very efficient AC/Heater, and drive a modern fuel-efficient car that gets over 30 miles a gallon. When I can (and it is difficult around here) I buy locally grown, organic food. I would personally be willing to pay substantially more for most things if I thought the revenues thus produced would make a real impact. Heck I''d be willing to pay - and probably will - on the mere chance that it will help. Many will not be so willing, or flat out don''t have enough resources to make the choices. When the only light bulb you have is a 40 watt incandescent hanging by a wire in the middle of your room, are you concerned about how you''re contributing to global warming? Are YOU willing to live next to the nuclear plant? Right now? Ever lived without AC in a place that regularly hits triple digits? I have. If not you should try it. If so, are you personally willing to do it again? I''ll tell you honestly, I''m not. Of course if I did, I would have a greater chance of dying and that would certainly reduce my carbon footprint quite a bit.

I look at it this way, if only everyone could just agree on one religion and a single form of government, we could reduce world strife, needless killing, and all the greenhouse emissions associated with the military-industrial complex too. But it ain''t gonna happen. And it''s not that nobody "cares", or we''re just a bunch of nay-sayers with a bad attitude and who "don''t give a damn". Six thousand years of recorded history says humans are total masters of folly, regularly doing things to our detriment, and only MOVE when it becomes too painful, and not one second before. We murder with gusto, and watch millions die, without blinking. We give up our cherished myths (Earth as center of the cosmos, etc) only with a great wailing and much pain. They could, and probably will, carve these sentiments on our species'' tombstone. So you''re going to have to forgive me, and probably many others, if we forego running around with our hair on fire, and if we look with a jaundiced eye on our ability to stave off disaster. We''ll survive it all though. It will just be more painful than we''d like.
 
Date: 7/26/2009 2:38:57 PM
Author: ksinger
Date: 7/26/2009 1:52:51 PM

Author:kribbie

http://www.fairhome.co.uk/2008/11/11/maldives-may-be-abandoned-by-2100/
Click to expand...
Who says ''we'' don''t? But honestly, what can we do about it? Whatever your stance on global warming - whether you believe it to be man-made (I lean this way, for the record) or whether you see it as part of a natural rhythym, this has been building for a long time. It will not be reversed in a year or 10 or 30, and I''ve read more than one scientist express the opinion that we are already past the point where DOING anything would make much difference in the direction the climate is moving, for at least another 100 years. If man-made emissions are the primary cause, then we are surely screwed, because while the Western world is becoming more committed to reducing emissions, the Eastern world, eager to become the producing and consuming jauggernaut ala the West, won''t commit to anything. So where does that leave us? Zero-sum game or worse, I''d say. I''d say everyone''d better brace for a rough go in the decades ahead. Hope everybody''s AC is working. We could even see the return of famine to North America.

I just have a feeling that human nature is inclined to not believe the worst until it is flat-out slapping them in the face.


And if the Maldives can anticipate the future problem, they''d better get a move on solving it today, however they can. They''re going to be a drop in the bucket compared to what may happen later, and whining right now, when we can''t even seem to agree why this is happening, is effort better spent saving their own butts.
Click to expand...



Actually Ksinger - last year China was leading in wind energy production and development, and has been making moves to make their train transportation as green as possible. They have set realistic goals for reducing emissions, and increasing their energy efficiency. Meanwhile America for the vast majority, is sitting on it''s happy bum eating McDonald''s, Outback Steakhouse and the like every day. We have some of the least energy efficient vehicles in the world, and OUR national producers of automobiles end up refuting ideas of increasing gas mileage because of what.... their desire to make trucks?
38.gif
We dedicate more money and time to wars and wasteful things than we do to finding new renewable energies, meanwhile Germany, and China are out doing us in those departments.

I do believe that the drastic increase in global warming that we''ve seen is to be blamed on us, with our greenhouse gas emitting habits. No I don''t think that we can turn it around in 10 years, but we CAN TURN THINGS AROUND. But as a town, as a city, as a county, as a state, as a nation, as a continent and as a planet we all have to contribute. I think it is extremely important to push the information out there, and inform people of what they can do to help reduce waste and gasses. People are going to have to face the scary truth before we''ll see change. They''re going to have to BE SCARED about their future, and their children''s future. Up until recently, global warming has been sugar coated, with only the minor details being presented. I''ve seen it best stated as an attitude of "oh we''ll get to it when we get to it". We have to get to it now. If the beach erosions in Florida, and the noticeable differences in ice flows, and the longer hotter summers aren''t enough to convince, then I''m not sure what is.

I personally am doing everything in my power to help. I don''t eat meat, I keep compost, I make sure to tune my vehicle up (although not a hybrid it is efficient) to make sure it will keep it''s mpg. I''m going further as well, promoting recycling locally, informing those around me, writing letters to our county....

Global warming is real, it''s here, and we''re finally getting the full on truth of it. Now it''s time to face it, and step up, and do our part, and help on a local and widespread scale in every way we can.
 
For those who believe that Earth's climate is impacted by man, why is the recent cooling of the Earth not enough to make you believe that man is making a difference in a positive way?

ETA: Egads, sorry this graphic is so large!

globaltemps224.jpg
 
Date: 7/28/2009 3:17:59 PM
Author: dragonfly411
Actually Ksinger - last year China was leading in wind energy production and development, and has been making moves to make their train transportation as green as possible. They have set realistic goals for reducing emissions, and increasing their energy efficiency. Meanwhile America for the vast majority, is sitting on it''s happy bum eating McDonald''s, Outback Steakhouse and the like every day. We have some of the least energy efficient vehicles in the world, and OUR national producers of automobiles end up refuting ideas of increasing gas mileage because of what.... their desire to make trucks?
38.gif
We dedicate more money and time to wars and wasteful things than we do to finding new renewable energies, meanwhile Germany, and China are out doing us in those departments.

I do believe that the drastic increase in global warming that we''ve seen is to be blamed on us, with our greenhouse gas emitting habits. No I don''t think that we can turn it around in 10 years, but we CAN TURN THINGS AROUND. But as a town, as a city, as a county, as a state, as a nation, as a continent and as a planet we all have to contribute. I think it is extremely important to push the information out there, and inform people of what they can do to help reduce waste and gasses. People are going to have to face the scary truth before we''ll see change. They''re going to have to BE SCARED about their future, and their children''s future. Up until recently, global warming has been sugar coated, with only the minor details being presented. I''ve seen it best stated as an attitude of ''oh we''ll get to it when we get to it''. We have to get to it now. If the beach erosions in Florida, and the noticeable differences in ice flows, and the longer hotter summers aren''t enough to convince, then I''m not sure what is.

I personally am doing everything in my power to help. I don''t eat meat, I keep compost, I make sure to tune my vehicle up (although not a hybrid it is efficient) to make sure it will keep it''s mpg. I''m going further as well, promoting recycling locally, informing those around me, writing letters to our county....

Global warming is real, it''s here, and we''re finally getting the full on truth of it. Now it''s time to face it, and step up, and do our part, and help on a local and widespread scale in every way we can.
Click to expand...

Bully for them. It highlights the undeniable fact that a strong-arm central government, bordering on totalitarian and anathema as it would be to Americans, is probably going to be better at making the unwilling swallow a bitter pill. But you probably need to read this to balance your outsized praise.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/26/AR2008082603096.html


"The carbon emissions of China''s electric power sector will jump by about a third this year and surpass the total emissions of the U.S. electric power industry for the first time, according to a report by the Center for Global Development, a Washington-based think tank.


The estimate, gathered from a variety of public data, shows that while China and India are becoming somewhat more efficient in energy use, their rapid pace of economic growth would mean a doubling of their carbon emissions from power plants over the next dozen years.


"We see some marginal signs of improvement in carbon intensity, particularly in some of the major developing countries," said Kevin Ummel, a researcher at the Center for Global Development. "But even with that slight silver lining, aggregate emissions -- the only measure that matters to the atmosphere -- continue to race upward."


Worldwide, power generation accounts for 37 percent of energy-related carbon dioxide emissions and 27 percent of all carbon emissions, including those attributed to deforestation.


The report highlights the challenge of curbing greenhouse gases in time to slow climate change while maintaining world economic growth. China and India have made growth their top priority to raise living standards and many international climate negotiators don''t expect meaningful limits on carbon emissions from those countries until after 2020."



Only one of 7 MILLION hits on Google.

No meaningful emmisions limits until at least 2020? Strange, those don''t sound like "reasonable" emissions standards to ME, given the gravity of the situation.


People, even if the US were blasted back into the stone age, every last one of us, it still would not be enough to halt this thing.
Are YOU willing to forego all power usage? Car usage? Is everything in your power going to be enough? No? We ALL need to do this you say? Tell me any point in human history when we''ve EVER ALL AGREED or done the necessary or right thing. Please. I''m waiting with bated breath.

And so far, no one has trotted forth with how any of the things thus proposed, (please, people, do get off the "everything will be peachy if we just give up beef" cant) will actually have an impact great enough to offset and actually DECREASE anything to the point of reversing or slowing things down. Enough rah rah. I''m glad everyone is hopeful and fired up, but show me the science. How much must our emissions decrease? How quickly to stave off disaster? Can the US do it alone? Quote: "...aggregate emissions -- the only measure that matters to the atmosphere -- continue to race upward."


You''re asking Americans to sacrifice virtually our entire way of life (and no, that doesn''t mean simply ceasing to visit evil Outback or going on a diet), and the developing world to discard their dream of living their lives above subsistence level. Which all supports MY assertion that we will NOT COLLECTIVELY MOVE until it impacts us VERY negatively. I believe it is too late.


Still, I will tilt at the windmill, and do my tiny part. But don''t ask me to run around in with my hair on fire, in fear and self-loathing, or live off the grid in penance. I was born into this world as it was, and can affect but a small part of it.

 
I certainly don''t think giving up beef is actually plausible, and I actually agree with you that we won''t do anything about the environment until we''re running out of water. (Water is the next oil, BTW.)

Beef is just one of many examples highlighting how stupid Americans are as a whole, particularly when it comes to complex issues like the environment-that''s why I used it. Beef is bad for the environment in many ways and it''s bad for us. So it should seem easy enough to convince people to not eat it anymore, right? But we all know that won''t happen!

Amurricans like their red meat, and they don''t like that there government telling them what to do! They''ll eat red meat every day if they want to, whether their hearts are going to explode or not! Plus the cattle industry will lobby Congress and the EPA so Congress won''t limit their production. And they''ll run ads to encourage people to keep eating beef!
 
Date: 7/28/2009 6:03:54 PM
Author: thing2of2
I certainly don't think giving up beef is actually plausible, and I actually agree with you that we won't do anything about the environment until we're running out of water. (Water is the next oil, BTW.)

Beef is just one of many examples highlighting how stupid Americans are as a whole, particularly when it comes to complex issues like the environment-that's why I used it. Beef is bad for the environment in many ways and it's bad for us. So it should seem easy enough to convince people to not eat it anymore, right? But we all know that won't happen!

Amurricans like their red meat, and they don't like that there government telling them what to do! They'll eat red meat every day if they want to, whether their hearts are going to explode or not! Plus the cattle industry will lobby Congress and the EPA so Congress won't limit their production. And they'll run ads to encourage people to keep eating beef!
Click to expand...
Disconnected musings...

I don't attach moral significance to eating meat - as in it is evil. We've done it for millenia. We've been hunters since the beginning. What I DO have a moral objection to, is unaware consumption of meat. Hubs used to be a hunter. (No more) He said it is a SERIOUS issue to kill a living creature to sustain you. It changes your views. At least it did his. He still eats meat, but he KNOWS, in that most visceral way, what it MEANS. For me, back in college I had to process an entire side of beef and a pig - band saws, cleavers, knives, the works. Interesting and enlightening to SEE your food as the living creature it was. You respect it more, and aren't fooled into thinking it always came wrapped in cling film in the meat section of the grocery. It sounds corny, but I try to honor the sacrifice by using meat as condiment, and by preparing it as well as I can.

Well, advertising certainly does bugger up that dearly held economic premise that consumers are rational and make rational choices, doesn't it?

You know, it helps to remember, that only 29% of the American population has a college degree. I also wonder how many people who post here(and that is a general comment aimed at no one in particular) can actually COOK? And I mean just take a few igredients, come up with an idea on how to prepare it, and have the knowledge and skills to make that happen, ,and have a decent product at the end. Judging by my polling of 20-somethings, it isn't a very high percentage. I'd say MOST people I know under the age of 35, can't cook, or only cook minimally. Around here, that seems to be pretty steady, and irrespective of educational level.

It is also is good to know that our food is almost all grown corporately. 75% of US agriculture was produced by 5% of farms. 65% of farmers hold off-farm jobs. Very small farms are increasing and very large farms are increasing. Average age of a farmer is 57 years old. Making farming attractive and lucrative enough for individuals again, should be high on everyone's list. Unless of course everyone is thrilled to be at the mercy of ADM, Tyson (some VERY VERY UGLY corporate slimeballs I might add) and their ilk.

Note to self: Get of the dime and just JOIN Slow Food. You're on their mailing list already, you attend their picnics, just DO IT.

Thing, word on the water. The words "Ogllalla aquifer" will begin to impinge more and more on our collective consciousness in the years to come.
 
see this movie: FOOD, INC. playing now in theatres. if not, get it on dvd when it becomes available.

while slow food is wonderful and supporting restaurants that are a part of the slow food movement is a great idea, shopping at local farmers markets and buying meat direct from small, sustainable ranchers/farmers is possible. 100% of the meat in our home comes direct from such small producers and we''ve visited their farms/ranches many times. we know how the animals are raised, what they eat, that they are not in pens, etc. it also gives us control over the cuts we receive. and our $ stays in the community. i don''t eat cheap meat that is not of high quality when i eat out and i refuse to do it at home. even whole foods meats don''t meat my criteria. i am very picky re eggs and will only eat those that i buy from one particular vendor.

additionally, 100% of our produce comes from farmers markets. i cook to eat at home as well as for my husband to have both a lunch and dinnner at work [he works later than i want to be preparing and eating a meal in the evening].

we eat simply but well. good meat and vegetables don''t need a lot of fancy sauces or preparation.

however, i do have a rather large refrigerator with freezer, a 2nd refrigerator with freezer in the garage, and another freezer in the garage as well. have to store all those goodies somewhere.

mz

ps i grew up on a small 10 acre farm. we raised our own steers. my dad hunted and i fished with him. [we even went frogging]. and if that weren''t enough, my father just to make sure i knew where food came from and how it got to the table took me with him to the meat locker where the steer would hang to age after being "harvested" and also to a chicken processing plant. it bothers me that people just do not take the time to research and understand that our lives are only possible through the sacrifice of other life and that other life deserves respect. to waste meat is disrespectful of the taking of life. end of rant.......i think!
 
I''m not sure if we are getting warmer or cooler but I do believe that there is so much in the media that I''m sure it confuses a lot of people. I do believe that all the harm we do to our environment has to be effecting it in some way.
 
it was recently brought to my attention that grass-fed beef emits 1/3 less gas than industrial raised beef. it would be a small step but a good one to return to this method of ranching and turn away from agribusiness and its inherent problems.

mz
 
Date: 7/29/2009 9:23:24 AM
Author: ksinger

Date: 7/28/2009 6:03:54 PM
Author: thing2of2
I certainly don''t think giving up beef is actually plausible, and I actually agree with you that we won''t do anything about the environment until we''re running out of water. (Water is the next oil, BTW.)

Beef is just one of many examples highlighting how stupid Americans are as a whole, particularly when it comes to complex issues like the environment-that''s why I used it. Beef is bad for the environment in many ways and it''s bad for us. So it should seem easy enough to convince people to not eat it anymore, right? But we all know that won''t happen!

Amurricans like their red meat, and they don''t like that there government telling them what to do! They''ll eat red meat every day if they want to, whether their hearts are going to explode or not! Plus the cattle industry will lobby Congress and the EPA so Congress won''t limit their production. And they''ll run ads to encourage people to keep eating beef!
Click to expand...
Disconnected musings...

I don''t attach moral significance to eating meat - as in it is evil. We''ve done it for millenia. We''ve been hunters since the beginning. What I DO have a moral objection to, is unaware consumption of meat. Hubs used to be a hunter. (No more) He said it is a SERIOUS issue to kill a living creature to sustain you. It changes your views. At least it did his. He still eats meat, but he KNOWS, in that most visceral way, what it MEANS. For me, back in college I had to process an entire side of beef and a pig - band saws, cleavers, knives, the works. Interesting and enlightening to SEE your food as the living creature it was. You respect it more, and aren''t fooled into thinking it always came wrapped in cling film in the meat section of the grocery. It sounds corny, but I try to honor the sacrifice by using meat as condiment, and by preparing it as well as I can.

Well, advertising certainly does bugger up that dearly held economic premise that consumers are rational and make rational choices, doesn''t it?

You know, it helps to remember, that only 29% of the American population has a college degree. I also wonder how many people who post here(and that is a general comment aimed at no one in particular) can actually COOK? And I mean just take a few igredients, come up with an idea on how to prepare it, and have the knowledge and skills to make that happen, ,and have a decent product at the end. Judging by my polling of 20-somethings, it isn''t a very high percentage. I''d say MOST people I know under the age of 35, can''t cook, or only cook minimally. Around here, that seems to be pretty steady, and irrespective of educational level.

It is also is good to know that our food is almost all grown corporately. 75% of US agriculture was produced by 5% of farms. 65% of farmers hold off-farm jobs. Very small farms are increasing and very large farms are increasing. Average age of a farmer is 57 years old. Making farming attractive and lucrative enough for individuals again, should be high on everyone''s list. Unless of course everyone is thrilled to be at the mercy of ADM, Tyson (some VERY VERY UGLY corporate slimeballs I might add) and their ilk.

Note to self: Get of the dime and just JOIN Slow Food. You''re on their mailing list already, you attend their picnics, just DO IT.

Thing, word on the water. The words ''Ogllalla aquifer'' will begin to impinge more and more on our collective consciousness in the years to come.
Click to expand...
I think there are a lot of good points here. I am really struggling with the meat eating. As an Italian, we even start our soups with pancetta... I believe in my heart it is morally wrong.... But it''s a personal choice and just last night I caved and ate a hamburger. Then i felt terrible. But these are my issues to work out.

I would love to see a society where we do have the reverence for what we eat--especially meat. And we treat it with respect, which includes not gorging on it. I have researched free range beef and pork farms and they will send you meat. And I mean REAL farms, not a lot of the slickly marketed "organic" or "free range" stuff a lot of the stores carry. The USDA regs around what constitute "free range" are a joke. You have to do a lot of research.

The mass-produced, factory farmed meat products found in most stores and restuarants are repugnant to me for the cruelty issues, the human issue (the condition in these plants are unbelievable for the often illegal immigrants workign there for minimum wage), and the environmental issue.
 
Date: 7/26/2009 2:38:57 PM
Author: ksinger

Date: 7/26/2009 1:52:51 PM
Author:kribbie
http://www.fairhome.co.uk/2008/11/11/maldives-may-be-abandoned-by-2100/
Click to expand...
Who says ''we'' don''t? But honestly, what can we do about it? Whatever your stance on global warming - whether you believe it to be man-made (I lean this way, for the record) or whether you see it as part of a natural rhythym, this has been building for a long time. It will not be reversed in a year or 10 or 30, and I''ve read more than one scientist express the opinion that we are already past the point where DOING anything would make much difference in the direction the climate is moving, for at least another 100 years. If man-made emissions are the primary cause, then we are surely screwed, because while the Western world is becoming more committed to reducing emissions, the Eastern world, eager to become the producing and consuming jauggernaut ala the West, won''t commit to anything. So where does that leave us? Zero-sum game or worse, I''d say. I''d say everyone''d better brace for a rough go in the decades ahead. Hope everybody''s AC is working. We could even see the return of famine to North America.
I just have a feeling that human nature is inclined to not believe the worst until it is flat-out slapping them in the face.

And if the Maldives can anticipate the future problem, they''d better get a move on solving it today, however they can. They''re going to be a drop in the bucket compared to what may happen later, and whining right now, when we can''t even seem to agree why this is happening, is effort better spent saving their own butts.
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Totally guilty of not reading all the posts, but you are dead on IMO.
 
people usually don''t care until its too late; translated: until it effects them personally.

mz
 
Date: 8/3/2009 8:47:33 PM
Author: movie zombie
people usually don''t care until its too late; translated: until it effects them personally.

mz
Click to expand...
Very true
 
Karen,

My SIL just returned from a two-week business trip in China and Hong Kong. He kept us updated via emails detailing his work and daily activities. He was blown away by the degree of consumerism in the region. He said that it is everywhere. He said he has never seen so much "stuff" being peddled in his life. It''s sad.
 
Date: 8/3/2009 8:47:33 PM
Author: movie zombie
people usually don''t care until its too late; translated: until it effects them personally.


mz
Click to expand...

Little odd maybe, but I was listening to Megadeth the other day, the song Dawn Patrol made me think of this thread, and MZ''s comment.

Thermal count is rising
In perpetual writhing
The primordial ooze
And the sanity they lose

Awakened in the morning
To more air pollution warnings
Still we sleepwalk off to work
While our nervous systems jerk

Pretending not to notice
How history had forebode us
With the green house in effect
Our environment was wrecked

Now I can only laugh
As I read our epitaph
We end our lives as moles
In the dark of dawn patrol
 
Date: 8/12/2009 11:05:59 PM
Author: packrat

Date: 8/3/2009 8:47:33 PM
Author: movie zombie
people usually don''t care until its too late; translated: until it effects them personally.


mz
Click to expand...

Little odd maybe, but I was listening to Megadeth the other day, the song Dawn Patrol made me think of this thread, and MZ''s comment.

Thermal count is rising
In perpetual writhing
The primordial ooze
And the sanity they lose

Awakened in the morning
To more air pollution warnings
Still we sleepwalk off to work
While our nervous systems jerk

Pretending not to notice
How history had forebode us
With the green house in effect
Our environment was wrecked

Now I can only laugh
As I read our epitaph
We end our lives as moles
In the dark of dawn patrol
Click to expand...
Wow...
 
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