What would you do?

[packrat]

"I don't want to make my husband choose between me and his mother. I just want him to stand up for his family and I just don't understand why that's not happening. And I don't understand why he doesn't see that his actions (or planned actions) conflict with how he says he feels."

He doesn't have to "choose" like what kind of dressing you want on your salad. He needs to stand up for his wife and family, period, end of story. That's not choosing between, that's putting you guys first, where you should be. That is your rightful place as his wife and kids. It doesn't have to be an either/or thing like if he stands up for you he will never see his mother again---unless SHE makes it that way. And it sounds to me like she very much will make it that way. And if she's more important to him and his heart than his own wife and kids...well..that's kind of your answer, shitty as it is.

I don't dig this whole well he can't make his mother upset so he *has* to side w/her b/c he knows you'll stand by him no matter what. No. Just..no. Having a demanding and controlling and overbearing mother in no way shape or form gives anyone a free pass to treat their spouse and children in a demeaning manner, nor allow them to be treated in that manner just b/c "they'll stand by me". Nope. As a human being, I demand certain things and one of them is to not be treated like a dog and if you're going to treat me like a dog, I refuse to allow that and you can find someone else to treat as such. It won't be me. Or my kids. Period.

I'm a bit of a put up or shut up kinda gal. It got to the point where I had to ask my husband who he wanted to be married to, your wife or your mother. He put it all out to her, this is *my* wife, and *my* kids. I will allow no one to treat them as lesser. If you can not abide by basic human decency, you are not welcome here. If you can treat them as my wife and your grandkids, as they should be treated, wonderful, let's put this behind us and we'll move forward. She could not get past the fact that he stood up to her and wouldn't stand idly by and allow her to treat us however she felt, and that was pretty much the end of our relationship. That's how little her own son, whom she professed to love, mattered to her--she couldn't even be civil to me and the kids and continued to see me as the "other" woman. Once he recongized that, that just cemented in his head what I'd been trying to get across to him.

She should not be the one pulling the puppet strings and making your husband dance. (that's your job hahahahaha I'm kidding..kinda..)

People told me "don't make him choose between you and his mother-that's his *mother*" Yep, and I'm his wife. He CHOSE me as his wife. His mother is not and should not be, an option for his wife. We are separate entities. He has a wife, and he has a mother. Those are two different things, not the same thing. Being someone's mother does not entitle you to "own" your adult son for the rest of his life, nor does it give you the right to dictate the course of the marriage and kids as you are not a part of it. Being the wife DOES, however, give you those rights. She decides how her marriage plays out, and she raised her kids. That's it. You don't then get to choose to take over other peoples lives. And guess what, if JD had sided w/his mother, the marriage would've ended 13 years ago when we had our first child and I was done dealing w/it. I refuse to be swept aside b/c my grown adult husband is kowtowing to his mother.

 

[cmd2014]

Puppmom,

I think you and DH need to revisit the fact that it is not ok with you that he go on vacation without you or your DD while taking your two sons. ESPECIALLY for a vacation that is a family tradition.

I think the only real options are to 1) have everyone go even if it is awkward, and communicate clearly afterward that you will either not be going in future years or that you will need to rent your own accommodations given the tight quarters, 2) go, but make alternate living arrangements which will be comfortable for everyone or 3) take a stand and no-one goes.

This isn't making your DH choose between you and his mother. This is about making a family decision about a family vacation and whether it is comfortable and fun for everyone involved. If DH stalled on talking to his mother about whether or not DD was invited and whether or not there was actually room for her (and the fact that you guys wouldn't be comfortable going if this wasn't the case), then he has created this mess and he needs to take ownership and responsibility for it with his mother. He also needs to take responsibility for fixing it in a way that is acceptable to everyone involved. Otherwise, he will continue to behave in a passive (or passive aggressive) way for future decisions, and this will never end. After all, if this is true, he has caused injury not just to you (by lying by omission) but to her as well (again, by lying by omission and letting her spend money on accommodations which are unsuitable and unlikely to be used by you). That is disrespectful to you both.

By forcing him to deal with this issue directly, you are enabling healthier coping strategies in the long run. Healthier dynamics in his relationship with you too.

 

[Puppmom]

Chrono, I'm trying. It didn't go well last night because I got frustrated then emotional. But, it was the result of DH SAYING, "our family is my priority", "DD is just as important as the boys", "what my mom is doing is not okay with me" but all of that (to me) conflicts with what he wants to DO which is go on vacation without me if I don't want to go because of the situation (he is also willing to pile in and have everyone including DD and grandkids come - I just don't know if that'll work but I'm open to it I guess). He is somehow not seeing the disconnect between what he's saying and what he plans to do.

 

[chrono]

Puppmom,

I think you and DH need to revisit the fact that it is not ok with you that he go on vacation without you or your DD while taking your two sons. ESPECIALLY for a vacation that is a family tradition.

I think the only real options are to 1) have everyone go even if it is awkward, and communicate clearly afterward that you will either not be going in future years or that you will need to rent your own accommodations given the tight quarters, 2) go, but make alternate living arrangements which will be comfortable for everyone or 3) take a stand and no-one goes.

This isn't making your DH choose between you and his mother. This is about making a family decision about a family vacation and whether it is comfortable and fun for everyone involved. If DH stalled on talking to his mother about whether or not DD was invited and whether or not there was actually room for her (and the fact that you guys wouldn't be comfortable going if this wasn't the case), then he has created this mess and he needs to take ownership and responsibility for it with his mother. He also needs to take responsibility for fixing it in a way that is acceptable to everyone involved. Otherwise, he will continue to behave in a passive (or passive aggressive) way for future decisions, and this will never end. After all, if this is true, he has caused injury not just to you (by lying by omission) but to her as well (again, by lying by omission and letting her spend money on accommodations which are unsuitable and unlikely to be used by you). That is disrespectful to you both.

By forcing him to deal with this issue directly, you are enabling healthier coping strategies in the long run. Healthier dynamics in his relationship with you too.

CMD said it best. Family matters are very complex and difficult, isn't it?

 

[telephone89]

Chrono, I'm trying. It didn't go well last night because I got frustrated then emotional. But, it was the result of DH SAYING, "our family is my priority", "DD is just as important as the boys", "what my mom is doing is not okay with me" but all of that (to me) conflicts with what he wants to DO which is go on vacation without me if I don't want to go because of the situation (he is also willing to pile in and have everyone including DD and grandkids come - I just don't know if that'll work but I'm open to it I guess). He is somehow not seeing the disconnect between what he's saying and what he plans to do.

That's good that he's SAYING these things. But really, actions speak louder than words.
Is he full of shit? We don't know. But saying these things and doing another will actually make you trust him less in the future, and not believe what he says. I can also see a ton of resentment that will follow. Not following through on what you say is one of the leading causes of mistrust in general. In the workplace "Yes boss, I'll get that done today" and not doing it, your boss is not going to trust you to be left alone to handle tasks. Kids "yes mom, I'll be home right after the movie", etc. The same thing goes for husbands. "Yes wife, I want to put you and our family first" but not following through...

 

[VirginiaZee]

Puppmon, I'm so sorry you're dealing with this. It just sounds so incredibly painful and stressful. You mentioned on the first page that you were thinking of making an appointment with DH's therapist, as a couple, to talk this through. Were you able to do so? (I'm sorry if you gave an update and I just missed that post) I'm a relate-er too, and was just thinking that when I am really emotionally invested in a situation, and when DH is also really emotionally invested, and particularly when it's something really complex like this, that talking it through together with another person can be really helpful.

One other thought I just had. Sometime when you haven't been thinking about this for hours on end (or at least not trying to talk to DH about it), maybe it might be worth it to ask him if he sees the difference between what he's saying and what his actions are saying? And how much that hurts you. And then leave it at that, and see what he says. Alternatively, maybe approaching it from why this vacation is so important to him might give some additional insight.

Best of luck, with all of this.

 

[Gypsy]

Puppmom,
I am sorry you are going through this. It sounds like your DH wants to take the easy way out - pretend everything is okay because he's afraid of rocking the boat. As a wife, I would not tolerate it if my DH puts the needs and wants of his mother over our family. I'm not sure if I'm reading your post correctly but it sounds like he feels that if he upsets you, you'll stick by him no matter what, whereas his mother won't, therefore, he's choosing to side with his mother because he KNOWS you will stick by him.

THIS. Her love is seen as conditional and so he bows down to her. Your love is unconditional so he stands up to you. Really? That is backward and f*cked up.

This is indeed a hill to die on.

 

[rainwood]

Puppmom, I'm so sorry you're going through this.

I'm a big believer in the "forklift theory" which is that if you want to move people, you have to go to where they are. And I'm not talking about trying to move your MIL. She sounds like a lost cause. I'm talking about trying to move your DH. He's trying to say the right things to you to keep you happy and do the rights things to keep his mother happy. He needs to realize that isn't possible. One side or the other is going to be unhappy with his current solution.

Think about approaching him by saying, "I know that this is a hard situation for you and you don't want to upset your mother because then there's hell to pay for everyone. You wanted to wait to see if things might work themselves out. I understand that, but they didn't. And now we have to make a decision where none of the options are great. Here's how I see the choices:

1. You going with the boys, but not me, DD, or the grandkids. This will make your mother happy, but it will damage your relationship with our daughter and your relationship with me, maybe beyond repair. Is that what you want? You say that you consider DD our daughter and that you don't like how your mother is treating her, but actions are much louder than words, and your actions say you're okay with what your mother is doing. If you choose that, you have to choose the consequences. Your mother will be happy but you will have seriously disappointed all the other women in your life.

2. We all go on the vacation and squeeze into the 2 bedrooms. It will be crowded which is stressful and if your mother freezes out DD and the grandchildren, it will be even more stressful. We're willing to give that arrangement a try if you're willing to leave if the situation isn't workable. And you really have to be willing because otherwise this will be the vacation from hell.

3. We all go, but rent different accommodations if we can find them. Your mom and dad will have extra space that they paid for, but that's something we can't fix now because it's too late to change. We'll all get to go on vacation as a family, but it will be different because it won't be shared accommodations. That can be good and bad - good because we can be elsewhere if she doesn't treat DD and her kids well, and because it's nice to have a break from all that togetherness. But it will be different because there won't be that casual togetherness of sharing space. And it can't turn into you and the boys hanging out with them all the time while me and DD and the grandchildren hang out at our place. You'd have to agree that we do things as a family even when your mother doesn't want that.

4. We go somewhere else for a family vacation on our own. There won't be any drama while we're there, we can pick where we want to be, and we can have fun without worrying what your mother is going to do. But it won't be the family trip with your family and your mother is probably going to get very angry, and you're going to have to deal with that.

So those are the choices. There are no magic ones that make everybody happy. My preference is __, but we're a family and this needs to be a joint decision. What do you want to do?"

And see what he says. If he picks 1, then you have a much bigger problem than just your MIL. If he picks 2, 3, or 4, it's probably hard, with some drama, but manageable. Whatever the choice, DH is going to have to suck it up and deal with it. He doesn't want to say anything that will upset his mother. You don't want to repeat that pattern by being afraid to say something that will upset him. Sometimes you have to go there, and this may be one of those times. And write it out if you need to before speaking to him. That's okay. This is an important talk you're going to be having.

 

[rainydaze]

Still feeling so badly for you puppmom, my heart really goes out to you. You've got such a tough situation on your hands.

He's got undeniable proof that his mom won't stand by him - he's already witnessed her completely disown her own daughter and step-granddaughter. Easy-peasy, just like that.

So yeah, he's more afraid to rock the boat with her and that's driving his actions despite his words.

You have begun the process of standing up for yourself and DD with him. In doing so, hopefully it will give him the incentive he seems to need to finally set boundaries with his mother.

I hope that loving him unconditionally doesn't mean what it sounds like it does - that you'll just keep sacrificing yourself and your kids indefinitely to his (unhealthy) relationship with his mother if he doesn't come around. The way he has handled things so far has not been healthy or loving towards you. Sounds like you may need to do some of your own soul-searching to figure out where your limits fall, and make sure DH understands you have them too. Yours are healthy, they are about respect and self-preservation. Hers are self-serving and/or manipulative.

And my apologies, my last post might not have been clear - I wasn't questioning yours or your DD's independence, but your DH's. I understand better now why his parents are paying for this vacation. While it appears on the up-and-up and nice in theory, MIL is no longer honoring the tradition. This 'family vacation' now *excludes* family. Sometimes we have to make the hard decision and let go of traditions that mean a lot to us because we are holding on to what *was* and blind to what *is*.

 

[LLJsmom]

In my opinion, your DH is being a wuss. I've seen it before and I totally understand you not wanting to make him choose. I understand that he may not be able to make a choice. I am not much of a compromiser but this is honestly what I would do.

Go. Use the rooms they rented for you. Thank you very much. Save me some money. I would rent a separate room for DD and her kids so everyone goes. MIL thinks she can control you by holding the purse strings and exclude DD. Not gonna happen because you have money too. No, MIL cannot escape DD on this vacay. While in vacay, tell her that next year none of you will be coming if DD is not included. This year is a last hurrah. Didn't want you to waste your money. It's been fun. I wouldn't wait for my DH to say it to his mom because no matter how he says it, it would not have the effect of me saying it. Meaning I want to make sure there is no miscommunication. Yes, I am fine being the b!tch in this situation. Theoretically I shouldn't have to be. But because I am a practical girl and DH will not be clear enough to suit my taste, I will say it. After all, for me I am being true to myself in that I am he one who really minds it. DH doesn't like it, but not mind enough to make a stand.

I would not make it a deal breaker between me and DH. That is just me. Doesnt mean it is not an issue that needs to continue to be worked on between the two of you but I would take the reigns and make sure everyone is clear who is in charge. None of this sneaky not being upfront about your reasons and intensions crap. I would respect your MIL a lot more if she came right out and just said it. I don't judge her for not wanting to be around your DD. Your MIL has her issues and can't deal with your DD, or her own for that matter. It's her sneakiness and manipulative ways, and not being upfront about her intensions that really bothers me.

If for some reason you cannot book extra space for your DD, then the whole family shouldn't go at all. And I would even volunteer to help dear MIL recoup the cost by volunteering to find a family to sublet the rooms for that time. LOL!!! Maybe some nice people off Craigslist. See? You're thoughtful and considerate to take her finances into consideration.

 

[House Cat]

This is such a sad situation. I agree with all of the advice given that states that you and your DH must be a united front when it comes to the MIL. I also agree that MIL has mental issues. Some of her behaviors look very familiar to me.

I had a manipulative narcissistic mother. She played everyone against one another so that she could be the center of attention. She used fear and money and her version of love and any other means of currency to control everyone around her. When that didn't work, she would have a complete meltdown. Those meltdowns would look like an explosive rage or she would wilt and look completely helpless. It just depended on what would be more effective at that particular moment...what would garner the biggest result.

I would like to tell you what it is like to be a child of such a person, because I can see what your husband is doing. He is afraid. Everyone on this forum is acting as though it is so easy to confront this mother because they probably had normal mothers. Their perspective is from the view of growing up with normal mothers. Your husband was (most likely) raised by a woman who used emotional manipulation on a constant basis to control him. She did this from birth. He is perfectly conditioned to meet her every need. He was taught, from birth, to always keep her happy. It is as if it is a part of his DNA. THE WORST THING IN THE WORLD would be to displease her! This was his message as a child and it is still a very big part of him if he hasn't had therapy.

Let me drive this home... he has been totally and completely conditioned. Emotionally abused. "He was put on this planet to meet her needs." He is only doing what he knows. He means you no harm.

He is afraid of what it would be like to hurt his mother. He may have hurt her in the past and it may have had dire consequences.


If this mother is who I think she is...and I am pretty sure from what I have seen on this thread and from the fear I see from your husband. Then this is most likely the situation.

Any other husband would have told his mother that her behavior was unacceptable months ago, at the first discovery of DD's exclusion from the vacation. There would have been that kind of comfort in the relationship if it were a normal mother/son relationship. I have two adult sons. They would have been able to say that to me, no problem. Of course, I wouldn't exclude anyone from our vacation, but they can come to me about any conflict. I have made sure of it.


So there is some insight. Your husband is probably in need of some therapy. It took a lot of therapy for me to even see the sickness in my relationship with my mom. I thought she was normal. I thought our relationship was normal. It was so far from normal.


I hope you can talk with your therapist about this. Maybe you can get DH to attend?

 

[nala]

I know that you didn't directly reply to my thread, so idk if you appreciate my perspective. But it is disturbing to see how many posters here are quick to berate your hubby and to urge you to give him an ultimatum. You have given very limited info about the circumstances that led your MIL to disliking your DD. You have implied that your ILs are wealthy. Maybe your hubby sees the potential financial repercussions that a big disagreement with his mom might have. Maybe his inheritance and by extension, your kids, is at stake. And maybe he has addressed his mom and his mom had told him why she no longer wants your DD around. And maybe your hubby knows he cannot change the way she feels bc you can't control other people. And maybe your hubby realizes that your DD is an adult who can handle the reality of not being accepted by that lady. This reality does not mean that you and your hubby don't love your DD. It means that your MIL doesn't and never did. And an adult should understand that not everyone in this world will love and accept you. So if you so badly need for your DD to know that, which I'm sure she does, then it is for you to fight. Not your hubby. I think you still look at your DD as a child who needs protection when the reality is that she has children of her own. And I will reiterate, I'm sure she will be ok if you go on this vacay without her and if she confirms what she already suspects, that your MIL will never approve of her. No need to show your hubby the door. All of the people involved are adults. Adults choose whom they spend time with and you can't force people to love each other. Time for you to make new traditions or to accept that reality.

 

[OoohShiny]

He seems to think he can make everyone happy. I disagree.

I was just reading through and wondering what I could write (as my mother is also somewhat controlling and I struggle to deal with her) when this pricked my consciousness - I think you need to lay it out that there is no 'everyone is happy' ending, someone is going to be unhappy at the end of this process and the ball is in his court as to who it will be.

Does he want it to be his mother, who as his mother should respect his adulthood and decisions, and love him unreservedly even if she does not agree with his decisions all the time?

Or does he want it to be you, who he is supposed to be spending the rest of his life with (instead of his mother) to make a family and his own happy endings?

Or perhaps DD, who will feel isolated and pushed out if she is betrayed by first her grandma and then her father, potentially withholding access to the grandchildren in future years, consciously or subconsciously?


He holds the cards. If as a grown man he can't cut the apron strings by exercising the right to make his own decisions that better the lives of the family he has chosen to make, even when it will mean making a clear statement of intent to his mother, perhaps he better go back to mummy, and then he can spend the rest of his life fooling himself it was not his or his mother's fault, likely making him a bitter lonely old man. I'm sure he'd like to restart his life and try to create a new family at his age!

 

[Puppmom]

I took a 4 day unplugged weekend to enjoy the holiday (and potty train our 3 year old) but I thought I would share where we are.

Telephone, I absolutely agree that actions speak louder than words. I’ve been with DH 16 years and definitely don’t think he’s full of shit. I think he’s struggling to connect his desired outcome to what actions he must take to get there. It’s difficult for me to understand for sure.

Virginia, DH and I spoke again this weekend (much more calmly!) and I explained this is not going away and did touch on my perception of his lack of action. He seemed to get it. We are going together to his therapist tomorrow to hopefully come to an agreement.

Gypsy, I think my poor articulation made you think that it’s okay with me that he please her first because she’s so challenging. I was just trying to imagine what he must be thinking on a subconscious level that make it so difficult for him to draw a line and just tell her like it is.

Rainwood, I really appreciate the thoughtful response. It’s funny – when revisiting the conversation with DH this weekend, he did not recall suggesting going without me. Our conversation was heated but I definitely remember that he specifically made that suggestion. Either way, I think he realizes now that is not happening. The divide that would create between the two of us would be huge…nevermind the message that sends to all involved.

Rainydaze, I think what you’ve said is where I’m at but reserving final judgement until we talk to the therapist. This family vacation tradition was nice while it lasted but it’s probably over. Once we resolve this though I think there are other hurdles to overcome. But I do think this particular situation has opened DH’s eyes to how her behavior is not harmless.

LLJsmom, one of the things I want to discuss with the therapist is me telling MIL whatever we decide. Not because I don’t trust DH but because I think the message is too *soft* leaving room for interpretation. I can be blunt (to a fault) but I think this needs to be handled in a very matter of fact way because of the previous miscommunications – on many issues.

Housecat, wow – I’m sorry you had such a difficult time with your mother. I can’t imagine how a child functions and grows in that environment. My own mom is a tough cookie but I know exactly what to expect from her. I don’t take her crap and she doesn’t take mine. MIL, in the sixteen years I’ve known her, has never once raised her voice or threatened anything. Everything is under the guise of trying to help. Then, if something doesn’t go over well, the reaction is always the same – she had no idea that what she was doing could be perceived as anything other than kind. That’s always been my challenge with her – she just quietly does what she thinks is right for everyone. If there is any protest, revert to I was just trying to help… Then DH feels bad. This has happened many times before just on much less impactful things.

Nala, I do appreciate your perspective (and all of the posters for that matter). The situation with MIL and DD is very black and white (to me). They had a normal relationship (grandmom-grandchild) – they would see each other quite often, email, share pictures, go out to lunch, exchange gifts etc. Then, DD went to college in the Fall of 2013 and some of that quieted because we all didn’t get to see each other often but MIL helped pack for college and lent us her car and sent DD a care package and spent time with her at the holidays. Around my youngest son’s 1st birthday she announced she was pregnant and it was like a switch flipped. She asked to watch my youngest at her house so she did not have to see DD. We did not oblige but DD moved in with her boyfriend shortly after spring semester so they didn’t see much of each other anyway. Since that point, MIL has avoided DD. I thought she just needed time to “get over it” but that didn’t happen. Then, when DD became pregnant a second time, it got even worse. She doesn’t mention her name. If you bring up her or the kids, she gets uncomfortable and changes the subject. It’s literally as if she doesn’t exist. I absolutely agree that it is a reality in life that not everyone will like or accept you. You have no argument from me there. But, regardless of DD’s age, she is FAMILY to me. We are a package deal. If you are inviting us on a FAMILY vacation that has always been all of us but are now excluding one of my children then I have every right to say no thank you.

Shiny, what you pointed out is a struggle I have often. DH is constantly looking for ways to please everyone which often leaves me feeling…not pleased. I think allowing the little things to slide all this time has made this difficult for him – but that’s his responsibility. I know this is just a vacation but I think how he handles this sets a new precedent with his mom. I think he has to stop taking blame for her behavior and start dealing with the fact that she is not perfect.

Quick update – DH and I spoke and agreed to review with his therapist tomorrow. As I mentioned, we had a much more reasonable conversation about it and he says he is working on a “plan” and he’s going to “fix this”. Honestly, that makes me nervous. I’m just letting it ride until the therapist because there’s no sense in arguing now. DH’s anxiety is getting worse ( I think more from the medication he is taking to remedy it in the first place and less from the stress of this) but it affects how I interact with him. So we have to address that as well. He's been open with me about the anxiety etc. which I appreciate but it scares the shit out of me.

If you have read this far and offered your advice, thank you again. If you didn’t – I don’t blame you!

 

[telephone89]

It's great that you guys are going to discuss it with your therapist - I think that's a very fair compromise! And a neutral 3rd party might help him to see why it's wrong, and come up with a plan for BOTH of you.

 

[rainydaze]

puppmom, I'm so glad you had a restful weekend and came back with an update! Things are sounding hopeful, and I have my fingers crossed his therapist is able to really help him and the two of you work through his complicated realationship with his mother.