What if the genders were reversed?

[kenny]

What if a male teacher disappeared with a 15-year old girl and they were found a week later together in a hotel room?

Is a woman doing this to a boy less serious than a man doing it to a girl?
This judge seems to think so.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5hYlxQTdVot91Cxe39sYDJrD8Yn-A?docId=5766423

 

[dragonfly411]

I'd have to know more about the case, and I would say that in the reverse as well. This is a very brief description of what happened, and what the situations were. I'd want to know about the child's home life, I'd want to know whether actions were forced or not. There are too many variables here. Plus she looks 12.

 

[ksinger]

What if a male teacher disappeared with a 15-year old girl and they were found a week later together in a hotel room?

Is a woman doing this to a boy less serious than a man doing it to a girl?
This judge seems to think so.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5hYlxQTdVot91Cxe39sYDJrD8Yn-A?docId=5766423

No, it is no different, and there should be zero difference in sentence or how the case is viewed. Period. I don't know what, if any, precedent there is in sentencing for a first time offense like that, but whatever it is, it should be applied without regard to the fact that she is a woman. It IS more rare to see female sexual predators, but they DO exist and should be treated like their male counterparts.

 

[ForteKitty]

wait.. he's in the 8th grade. and he's 15?

 

[Circe]

Sadly, this isn't unusual. Women who molest boys are seen as "going them a favor," or fulfilling a common fantasy. We're come to a point where we acknowledge that men who molest girls are taking advantage of their inexperience (and this after years of "good honest family men" being tempted by "Lolitas"), but it's going to take a while, I think, for the societal attitude to swing around to acknowledging that boys are vulnerable to abuse, too.

A case of The Patriarchy Hurts All of Us (TM).

 

[Circe]

wait.. he's in the 8th grade. and he's 15?

To me, that implies that he'd be that much more vulnerable, no?

 

[AGBF]

I completely agree with ksinger and Circe (as usual). A woman in a position of power, a professional woman, must abide by a code of ethics. Minor children must be protected. There is no room for error when children are involved.

Deb/AGBF


Diamonds Are A Girls Best Friend

 

[suchende]

Honestly? I think the reverse happens so often it isn't even news-worthy. I say that because I've heard many stories of female students being knocked up by teachers in certain school districts. It's one of the metrics former TFAers (Teach for America alumni) use to describe how bad their site was. "Three girls in my school were pregnant by staff!"

 

[ksinger]

Sadly, this isn't unusual. Women who molest boys are seen as "going them a favor," or fulfilling a common fantasy. We're come to a point where we acknowledge that men who molest girls are taking advantage of their inexperience (and this after years of "good honest family men" being tempted by "Lolitas"), but it's going to take a while, I think, for the societal attitude to swing around to acknowledging that boys are vulnerable to abuse, too.

A case of The Patriarchy Hurts All of Us (TM).

Oh NO! Circe....already??? Wow! You didn't waste any time becoming that corporate American!

 

[Prana]

I think that it should be treated the same regardless of gender.

I think that there is a 'man' stigma, that men are not subject to the same type of mental and psychological trauma of sexual abuse by an older woman because it is a 'fantasy' of sorts.

 

[Circe]

Sadly, this isn't unusual. Women who molest boys are seen as "going them a favor," or fulfilling a common fantasy. We're come to a point where we acknowledge that men who molest girls are taking advantage of their inexperience (and this after years of "good honest family men" being tempted by "Lolitas"), but it's going to take a while, I think, for the societal attitude to swing around to acknowledging that boys are vulnerable to abuse, too.

A case of The Patriarchy Hurts All of Us (TM).

Oh NO! Circe....already??? Wow! You didn't waste any time becoming that corporate American!

Feminism, Inc.

 

[ksinger]

Sadly, this isn't unusual. Women who molest boys are seen as "going them a favor," or fulfilling a common fantasy. We're come to a point where we acknowledge that men who molest girls are taking advantage of their inexperience (and this after years of "good honest family men" being tempted by "Lolitas"), but it's going to take a while, I think, for the societal attitude to swing around to acknowledging that boys are vulnerable to abuse, too.

A case of The Patriarchy Hurts All of Us (TM).

Oh NO! Circe....already??? Wow! You didn't waste any time becoming that corporate American!

Feminism, Inc.

OMG! I'm cracking up!

 

[kenny]

One gender difference does come to mind . . . the loss of a female's virginity is a biological change, often with significant social implications.

Also, I'm not sure the psychological damage is the same to both genders of children.
Maybe I'm backwards and have to get with the times, but my impression is girls are more harmed than boys by this, all other things being equal.

Good, bad, right or wrong young males get high-fived when they have sex - females not so much.
Sure, there may be exceptions to this generalization, but exceptions do not vanish the generalization.

Even if these differences are real, I think the law should treat the adult men and woman offenders the same.

 

[lucyandroger]

From the article:

"[Judge] Moriarty said he thinks Lavoie's "interest and concern for (the boy's) emotional well-being was what originally began this episode," which he said "was originally well-intended." He said it appears Lavoie's kindness toward the boy was what led to his sexual interest in her."

Isn't that a weird statement? Almost like blaming the victim. Who cares what sparked his sexual interest? She was the adult and never should have let it lead to anything.

Anyway, I think child molestation is just as serious when it happens to a boy as when it happens to a girl. And it doesn't matter what sex the molester is.

 

[Circe]

One gender difference does come to mind . . . the loss of a female's virginity is a biological change, often with significant social implications.

Also, I'm not sure the psychological damage is the same to both genders of children.
Maybe I'm backwards and have to get with the times, but my impression is girls are more harmed than boys by this, all other things being equal.

Good, bad, right or wrong young males get high-fived when they have sex - females not so much.
Sure, there may be exceptions to this generalization, but exceptions do not vanish the generalization.

Even if these differences are real, I think the law should treat the adult men and woman offenders the same.

Physical, sure, biological, not so much. The bigger differences might be that male physiology ensures the probability of physical pleasure, which to some minds might mitigate the crime, and that while boys have to worry about unwanted offspring, too, the consequences to them are a little less ... immediate.

But I don't think that excuses it in the slightest. The thing about boys being high-fived for getting laid? I think that's one of the most damaging things our society does to young men: it minimizes their feelings and abstracts their desires in the exact inverse fashion that it does girls. But that doesn't mean it doesn't do harm ....

 

[LAJennifer]

I almost find it more disturbing that she "ran away" with this kid, crossing multiple state lines. Isn't that kidnapping? And the kid is a victim, regardless of gender. Five years probation is ridiculously absurd.

I have a cousin whose wife (now ex-wife) is currently in prison for something similar. She was a middle school teacher and a coach for the high school wrestling team. She had a drunken gang bang with 3 or 4 of the high school kids that she coached. These were big boys, all over 6 ft tall, who gave her multiple bruises during their escapade. She plead guilty and got 4 - 20 years.

 

[AGBF]

I have a cousin whose wife (now ex-wife) is currently in prison for something similar. She was a middle school teacher and a coach for the high school wrestling team.

LAJennifer-I know that this is ridiculously irrelevant to the topic under discussion, but wasn't it strange for a woman to be coaching a boys' high school wrestling team? I've never heard of anything like that! By the high school level, the boys' teams -at least for macho sports-are all coached by men. At least here in this area!

Deb/AGBF


Diamonds Are A Girl's Best Friend

 

[Haven]

I almost find it more disturbing that she "ran away" with this kid, crossing multiple state lines. Isn't that kidnapping? And the kid is a victim, regardless of gender. Five years probation is ridiculously absurd.

I have a cousin whose wife (now ex-wife) is currently in prison for something similar. She was a middle school teacher and a coach for the high school wrestling team. She had a drunken gang bang with 3 or 4 of the high school kids that she coached. These were big boys, all over 6 ft tall, who gave her multiple bruises during their escapade. She plead guilty and got 4 - 20 years.

This really sickens me.

I don't think it should matter if it's a male teacher or a female teacher, coach, or parapro, if the student is 13 or 17, girl or boy. When an authority figure engages in an inappropriate relationship with a minor that minor has been abused, taken advantage of, and damaged in ways that we can never really know.

Deb--Coaches are often really difficult to find, so schools will take what they can get. My former high school had female coaches for the male volleyball teams.

 

[ForteKitty]

wait.. he's in the 8th grade. and he's 15?

To me, that implies that he'd be that much more vulnerable, no?

In some ways, yes. A 15 yr old should be in the 10th grade, right? If he flunked a few grades, he may be looking for affection from the wrong places, or looking for a parental figure who isn't there. She's definitely wrong in taking advantage of that.

However, many 15 yr olds are quite sexually active these days... they start really early now. who knows if it was something he wanted to do. but she should have known better!

 

[ksinger]

I almost find it more disturbing that she "ran away" with this kid, crossing multiple state lines. Isn't that kidnapping? And the kid is a victim, regardless of gender. Five years probation is ridiculously absurd.

I have a cousin whose wife (now ex-wife) is currently in prison for something similar. She was a middle school teacher and a coach for the high school wrestling team. She had a drunken gang bang with 3 or 4 of the high school kids that she coached. These were big boys, all over 6 ft tall, who gave her multiple bruises during their escapade. She plead guilty and got 4 - 20 years.

This really sickens me.

I don't think it should matter if it's a male teacher or a female teacher, coach, or parapro, if the student is 13 or 17, girl or boy. When an authority figure engages in an inappropriate relationship with a minor that minor has been abused, taken advantage of, and damaged in ways that we can never really know.

Deb--Coaches are often really difficult to find, so schools will take what they can get. My former high school had female coaches for the male volleyball teams.

Snort. Hardly. Coaches are a dime a dozen. Finding a coach who also knows a SUBJECT and can string together a complete sentence, and TEACH, well, yeah, that IS difficult.

 

[Circe]

wait.. he's in the 8th grade. and he's 15?

To me, that implies that he'd be that much more vulnerable, no?

In some ways, yes. A 15 yr old should be in the 10th grade, right? If he flunked a few grades, he may be looking for affection from the wrong places, or looking for a parental figure who isn't there. She's definitely wrong in taking advantage of that.

However, many 15 yr olds are quite sexually active these days... they start really early now. who knows if it was something he wanted to do. but she should have known better!

I think that's it exactly - it's the adult's responsibility to shape the nature of the relationship. I'm a college prof, and I think it's grotesque when I hear stories about my colleagues engaging in relationships with students. I know they're legal, and physically mature, and all that ... but in my eyes, they're babies! Charming, articulate, intelligent babies who need to be nurtured and protected, and it doesn't matter if they're 18 or older: the power dynamic is just to deeply embedded to be ignored.

 

[megumic]

Maybe it's another MaryKay Letourneau case...she is still married to her student.

My guess is that the intent behind the criminal law of statutory rape was to punish persistent offenders, not teachers who fall in love with students. Is it inappropriate, unethical and unacceptable? Yes. But if the intent of the law does not suit the facts, the judge is well within his right to sentence accordingly.

If the genders were reversed, I agree, this would be a different case. Should it be? No.

 

[Tuckins1]

Sick either way. I can not imagine ever thinking of my students as more than that- students. They are like members of my family, not attractive members of the opposite sex!!

 

[LAJennifer]

I almost find it more disturbing that she "ran away" with this kid, crossing multiple state lines. Isn't that kidnapping? And the kid is a victim, regardless of gender. Five years probation is ridiculously absurd.

I have a cousin whose wife (now ex-wife) is currently in prison for something similar. She was a middle school teacher and a coach for the high school wrestling team. She had a drunken gang bang with 3 or 4 of the high school kids that she coached. These were big boys, all over 6 ft tall, who gave her multiple bruises during their escapade. She plead guilty and got 4 - 20 years.

This really sickens me.

I don't think it should matter if it's a male teacher or a female teacher, coach, or parapro, if the student is 13 or 17, girl or boy. When an authority figure engages in an inappropriate relationship with a minor that minor has been abused, taken advantage of, and damaged in ways that we can never really know.

Deb--Coaches are often really difficult to find, so schools will take what they can get. My former high school had female coaches for the male volleyball teams.

Yes, I agree. I had known her 20 years and never, for one second, thought her capable of something like this. Her behavior had been erratic and out of control for the 2 weeks prior to this incident - her husband asked her to leave a few days before this happened. I don't know if she was going through some mid life crisis, or if she just mentally "snapped" or what. During her sentencing she called herself a monster and stated that she deserved her punishment.

That being said, she is doing very well in prison. She has gotten physically healthy, has lost a lot of weight, and helps other inmates get their GEDs.

 

[lulu]

I started a thread on this earlier. My husband insists that it wouldn't have any lasting effect on a boy-it would be a good "summer of '42" experience. I disagree .

 

[AGBF]

I started a thread on this earlier. My husband insists that it wouldn't have any lasting effect on a boy-it would be a good "summer of '42" experience. I disagree .

That depends on the boy and his resilience, but the law and the professional code of ethics cannot assume resilience!!! Some girls would be harmed more by a sexual relationship than others, too. It is irrelevant. Any time a sexual relationship takes place between a teacher and his (her) student, an adult is abusing a child for his (her) own ends and it is unethical and illegal.

Deb/AGBF


Diamonds Are A Girl's Best Friend

 

[Haven]

I almost find it more disturbing that she "ran away" with this kid, crossing multiple state lines. Isn't that kidnapping? And the kid is a victim, regardless of gender. Five years probation is ridiculously absurd.

I have a cousin whose wife (now ex-wife) is currently in prison for something similar. She was a middle school teacher and a coach for the high school wrestling team. She had a drunken gang bang with 3 or 4 of the high school kids that she coached. These were big boys, all over 6 ft tall, who gave her multiple bruises during their escapade. She plead guilty and got 4 - 20 years.

This really sickens me.

I don't think it should matter if it's a male teacher or a female teacher, coach, or parapro, if the student is 13 or 17, girl or boy. When an authority figure engages in an inappropriate relationship with a minor that minor has been abused, taken advantage of, and damaged in ways that we can never really know.

Deb--Coaches are often really difficult to find, so schools will take what they can get. My former high school had female coaches for the male volleyball teams.

Snort. Hardly. Coaches are a dime a dozen. Finding a coach who also knows a SUBJECT and can string together a complete sentence, and TEACH, well, yeah, that IS difficult.

Really? Around here the schools cannot find or keep coaches long enough. (Except for the schools that have the luxury of hiring FULL TIME coaches--yup, some do. Anyway--I was forced to coach things I know nothing about when I taught HS because the school year started and they had nobody to coach. It happens all the time out here. I had a female friend who had to coach boys water polo her first year teaching. She's scared of the water, and can barely stand the smell of chlorine. I don't think she even knew there was a sport called water polo until they told her she had to coach it. Coaching is such a huge commitment, and it pays nothing, so the schools I've been involved with have always had a difficult time staffing their coaching positions.

 

[Haven]

I started a thread on this earlier. My husband insists that it wouldn't have any lasting effect on a boy-it would be a good "summer of '42" experience. I disagree .

That depends on the boy and his resilience, but the law and the professional code of ethics cannot assume resilience!!! Some girls would be harmed more by a sexual relationship than others, too. It is irrelevant. Any time a sexual relationship takes place between a teacher and his (her) student, an adult is abusing a child for his (her) own ends and it is unethical and illegal.
Deb/AGBF

Diamonds Are A Girl's Best Friend

I agree with Deb, and disagree with your husband, lulu.

I won't divulge any details, but I know one boy that has been seriously damaged by an inappropriate relationship with a female authority figure. It's heartbreaking, and sick, and I think the adult is always wrong. The female in this particular case had serious issues, and she took advantage of a young boy and ruined at least several years of his life by doing it.

 

[HollyS]

One gender difference does come to mind . . . the loss of a female's virginity is a biological change, often with significant social implications.

Also, I'm not sure the psychological damage is the same to both genders of children.
Maybe I'm backwards and have to get with the times, but my impression is girls are more harmed than boys by this, all other things being equal.

Good, bad, right or wrong young males get high-fived when they have sex - females not so much.
Sure, there may be exceptions to this generalization, but exceptions do not vanish the generalization.

Even if these differences are real, I think the law should treat the adult men and woman offenders the same.

Quite true.

ksinger, and AGBF are absolutely right, as well.

 

[HollyS]

I started a thread on this earlier. My husband insists that it wouldn't have any lasting effect on a boy-it would be a good "summer of '42" experience. I disagree .

That depends on the boy and his resilience, but the law and the professional code of ethics cannot assume resilience!!! Some girls would be harmed more by a sexual relationship than others, too. It is irrelevant. Any time a sexual relationship takes place between a teacher and his (her) student, an adult is abusing a child for his (her) own ends and it is unethical and illegal.
Deb/AGBF

Diamonds Are A Girl's Best Friend

I agree with Deb, and disagree with your husband, lulu.

I won't divulge any details, but I know one boy that has been seriously damaged by an inappropriate relationship with a female authority figure. It's heartbreaking, and sick, and I think the adult is always wrong. The female in this particular case had serious issues, and she took advantage of a young boy and ruined at least several years of his life by doing it.

And that is why female predators should be treated with no more kid gloves than their male counterparts. Wrong is wrong is wrong is wrong is wrong. Period. And wrong will always create issues that someone else must clean up or deal with.

I say prison is too good for these people.