What do you think about this?

[Phoenix]

I have a new friend in Shanghai, who's Asian but lived in the US for some thirty years or so. She's in her mid-to-late fifties and is married to a man who is Asian American (btw, just in case - this is not a race issue, it's just to give you some perspective).

She's a very very nice and kind person. She take me around Shanghai where I just relocated three and a half months ago with my husband from Singapore, and I see her fairly often (like two or three times a week either for lunch and/ or dinner - sometimes just the two of us, sometimes with other people - or we go shopping together).

Now, she sees me and how I'm dressed, which is fairly presentable. I don't dress trendily but presentable enough (I have some designer wear which I mix with non-branded stuff) and I do carry my designer bags and wear my diamonds (a pair of larger earstuds and a 3ct solitaire diamond). She herself is also into designer clothes and wears a larger diamond ring (3.5ct). I happen to know that she and her husband as well as her daughter and SIL are very wealthy. Just to be clear, I don't choose my friends based on what they have or what they wear. She and her husband are very kind hearted people and interesting to talk to.

However, a few days ago, she made a couple of comments which I'm not too sure how to react about. The first one was about my husband who's an American who tends to go around in polo shirts and shorts and loafers (or "boat shoes" as I think some people call them). He's not into designer gear at all and has sometimes complained about my penchant for designer clothes (even though I mostly buy them in the sale at 70-80% discount). He's just casually dressed at the weekend and he couldn't really give a t%$# about what other people say or think about his dress sense. We went to their place a couple of weeks ago for a pot luck dinner (not one where they had to cook and lay out the nice crockery and cutlery for us) and there was no request for dress-code. My DH wore his usual weekend outfit (ie. polo shirt and shorts) and took his shoes off when he came in their apartment (which people do in people's houses in this part of the world). She later complained to me that my DH shouldn't have worn shorts or gone barefoot in their aprt. I suggested to her that she should next time specify a dress code (eg. long pants and socks). She agreed but added that she was surprised that I married my DH

(I guess her comment referred to the fact that my DH and I seem to dress quite differently and have different tastes when it comes to clothes and accessories).

Then, yesterday when I met her for tea, I had on a top which is *slightly* low cut and I don't even have big b%%$ (I'm either a 32 double B or a small C). She commented that I was too sexily dressed and that I should tone down. I told her that this is how I normally dress. She responded that in the West I could dress like that but no way in China. Just to be clear, I don't walk around in short skirts/ dresses and don't believe I dress inappropriately for my age (early forties). It's just that sometimes some of my tops are a little low-cut but not extremely so. In Singapore where we lived for 10 years, this was never an issue; and I guess because of the warmer climate there, a lot of women, both younger and older (like myself) do not always completely cover up.

Now, I realise that as an older Asian woman, even someone who lived in the West for several decades, she's still quite conservative, but I am wondering if she's out of line.

What do you guys think? Shall I just let her comments slide? Shall I say anything to her?

 

[AdiS]

Date: 9/26/2009 5:53:42 AM
Author:Phoenix
I have a new friend in SH, who''s Asian but lived in the US for some thirty years or so. She''s in her mid-to-late fifties and is married to a man who is Asian American (btw, just in case - this is not a race issue, it''s just to give you some perspective).

She''s a very very nice and kind person. She take me around Shanghai where I just relocated three and a half months ago with my husband from Singapore, and I see her fairly often (like two or three times a week either for lunch and/ or dinner; sometimes we go shopping together).

Now, she sees me and how I''m dressed, which is fairly presentable. I don''t dress trendily but presentable enough (I have some designer wear which I mix with non-branded stuff) and I do carry my designer bags and wear my diamonds (a pair of larger earstuds and a 3ct solitaire diamond). She herself is also into designer clothes and wears a larger diamond ring (3.5ct). I happen to know that she and her husband as well as her daughter and SIL are very wealthy. Just to be clear, I don''t choose my friends based on what they have or what they wear. She and her husband are very kind hearted people and interesting to talk to.

However, a few days ago, she made a couple of comments which I''m not too sure how to react about. The first one was about my husband who''s an American who tends to go around in polo shirts and shorts and loafers (or ''boat shoes'' as I think some people call them). He''s not into designer gear at all and has sometimes complained about my penchant for designer clothes (even though I mostly buy them in the sale at 70-80% discount). He''s just casually dressed at the weekend and he couldn''t really give a t%$# about what other people say or think about his dress sense. We went to their place a couple of weeks ago for a pot luck dinner (not one where they had to cook and lay out the nice crockery and cutlery for us) and there was no request for dress-code. My DH wore his usual weekend outfit (ie. polo shirt and shorts) and took his shoes off when he came in their apartment (which people do in people''s houses in this part of the world). She later complained to me that my DH shouldn''t have worn shorts or gone barefoot in their aprt. I suggested to her that she should next time specify a dress code (eg. long pants and socks). She agreed but added that she was surprised that I married my DH

(I guess her comment referred to the fact that my DH and I seem to dress quite differently and have different tastes when it comes to clothes and accessories).

Then, yesterday when I met her for tea, I had on a top which is *slightly* low cut and I don''t even have big b%%$ (I''m either a 32 double B or a small C). She commented that I was too sexily dressed and that I should tone down. I told her that this is how I normally dress. She responded that in the West I could dress like that but no way in China. Just to be clear, I don''t walk around in short skirts/ dresses and don''t believe I dress inappropriately for my age (early forties). It''s just that sometimes some of my tops are a little low-cut but not extremely so. In Singapore where we lived for 10 years, this was never an issue; and I guess because of the warmer climate there, a lot of women, both younger and older (like myself) do not always completely cover up.

Now, I realise that as an older Asian woman, even someone who lived in the West for several decades, she''s still quite conservative, but I am wondering if she''s out of line.

What do you guys think? Shall I just let her comments slide? Shall I say anything to her?

Yes, she is. Plus, she''s a snob - conservative? maybe, but mostly just a snob. If she wants to cover herself from her chin to her toes with clothing, ok. But you don''t have to apologize to no one for the clothes you like and wear, even if you were in Lady Gaga''s leather bodice, which you clearly weren''t! The comment about your DH is even worse, totally unacceptable and rude. And she''s surprised you married him because he wears shorts?! Honestly, that''s one of the most idiotic things I''ve ever heard.

 

[gemgirl]

While people in general usually have opinions about the people around them, I really don''t know anyone who would allow their negative thoughts about another person to come out of their mouths. And this woman is supposed to be your friend?

I agree with Adi. Your friend was being rude and controlling with her comments. I could never imagine myself saying to a friend that I was surprised that they married their husband.

 

[Irishgrrrl]

This is yet another example of the fact that money can''t buy class.

Phoenix, I think this woman was VERY much out of line! It''s bad enough for her to make the comments that she made about the things you wear, but for her to say that she''s surprised you married your husband because SHE has a problem with the way he dresses??? PLEASE!!! She needs to get over herself!

 

[KimberlyH]

Wow. Out of line? Absolutely. It''s none of her business to comment on your clothing in the first place, unless she is specifying dress code for an event or you''ve asked for an opinion, but it certainly not her place to comment on your choice of a spouse, especially not based on his clothing.

My husband is not the best dresser, but he is a man of great character who treats me amazingly well, and if any of my "friends" made such a comment I think our friendship would be over unless an apology was delivered immediately.

 

[*Danielle*]

I agree. She sounds like a snob. I would tell her that this is MY style and I will not conform to someone elses opinion.

 

[lyra]

My gut feeling was that she was simply being very conservative and old fashioned. It may be just that. I don''t know if it''s worth keeping this friendship, because she seems to lack tact in the very least. Perhaps also this is not a fun relationship to have or be in, I don''t know. I have to agree with her on the sock issue though--we also remove our shoes here and I would *never* go to someone''s house where I''d end up in barefeet. It''s okay for him to wear the boat shoes, no problem, as long as he also wears socks if he''s taking his shoes off. JMO of course.

 

[Porridge]

It seems to me that yes she was out of line and rude.

 

[fleur-de-lis]

As you have recently moved to a new city, in a new country, with a new culture, it's possible that there are subtle cultural differences which may have not been obvious to you... yet. It's possible that she's being rude, but is there a chance that she also feels enough of an intimate that she's trying to help you out socially? Could it almost be that she's trying to be helpful and "mentor" you, so as to help launch you socially by avoiding any unknowing faux-pas?

For instance, how one dresses when the invite says "cocktail attire" is VERY DIFFERENT for New York than in Washington DC, and this applies as well to Los Angeles. (I know you are not American, but I figure most people around the world have solid ideas of each due to American media/entertainment reach.) If a beautiful woman were to wear the more skin-revealing dresses popular in LA (or even the expensive yet hyper-casual cotton casual clothes of daytime) to events in button-up Washington DC, for instance, odds are that she might have greater difficulty being accepted into the old-school, upper-echelons in that button-up town.

This observation may not be applicable to you in your situation, of course. It's just food for thought, and since it seemed like it *might* apply (and be the thing a person would not realize until retrospect), I figured I'd toss it out there. I mean, your husband showing up in Chinese households and walking around barefoot... um, *might* this fact alone give you pause that the two of you are in a new land and might not yet be aware of a rather significant cultural nuances that could harm your reputations? Couldn't your friend's comments actually be a blessing in disguise?

 

[lovegem]

I think my opinion would be in the minority here. As Chinese I think I understand where Phoenix'' friend is coming from. I do not think she''s a snob when she made a comment about why Phoenix married her husband because he is a little carefree about what he wears (maybe she is, only phoenix can tell from their daily interaction). My friends and I joke "badly or bluntly" about each others marriage. Sometimes we joke about we shouldn''t have married our SO even in front of our husbands or "why did you married him?" kind of things when we want to tease each other about their different preferences. Our jokes can be seen as "rude" to some people. I am assuming that phoenix sees her friend so much, so her Asian friends is acting my kind of asian, and use blunt humors.

China is a big country. In some places or to some people taking off your shoes in their house is seen as a rude behavior and barefoot can been seen as one of those.

Phoenix, only you can tell whether she''s a snob or she''s just a friend with a blunt sense of humor.

 

[packrat]

If she thought you and hubby were unaware of some of the customs etc..shouldn''t she have maybe casually mentioned it beforehand? Otherwise, you''re both caught unaware and then made to feel like you''re in the wrong, when you didn''t know. (the barefoot thing for instance)

Until now, I had no idea it wasn''t acceptable to have barefeet..I figured no shoes means everyone''s either barefoot or in socks. Socks with shorts looks weird to me sometimes..so I guess you guys can''t wear anything but long pants??

The comment about marrying your husband..hmmm..was it meant like, he''s so socially awkward as to be offensive? Or was she meaning more like, oh these guys, can''t live w/''em can''t live w/out ''em? My bff calls and when she talks to my husband she tells him the only reason I married him is to be friends with her and they call each other names. But, they''re like brother and sister.

 

[AGBF]

If it were I in this situation, I would end this friendship in a very undramatic way so that she never knew she had offended me. I simply would not allow someone so hostile in my life and I would never try to discuss it with someone so remarkably ill. I am sorry that you were exposed to her hostility, Phoenix. She is an angry person and the remark about your husband was unpardonable in any social circle.

PS-I am in an international marriage. I am used to there being different cultural norms in different countries. It is the unmitigated gall she had in daring to comment on your choice of spouse that makes me certain she is hostile, not trying to be helpful to someone adjusting to a new culture.

Hugs,
AGBF

 

[Gailey]

Date: 9/26/2009 2:13:57 PM
Author: fleur-de-lis
As you have recently moved to a new city, in a new country, with a new culture, it''s possible that there are subtle cultural differences which may have not been obvious to you... yet. It''s possible that she''s being rude, but is there a chance that she also feels enough of an intimate that she''s trying to help you out socially? Could it almost be that she''s trying to be helpful and ''mentor'' you, so as to help launch you socially by avoiding any unknowing faux-pas?

For instance, how one dresses when the invite says ''cocktail attire'' is VERY DIFFERENT for New York than in Washington DC, and this applies as well to Los Angeles. (I know you are not American, but I figure most people around the world have solid ideas of each due to American media/entertainment reach.) If a beautiful woman were to wear the more skin-revealing dresses popular in LA (or even the expensive yet hyper-casual cotton casual clothes of daytime) to events in button-up Washington DC, for instance, odds are that she might have greater difficulty being accepted into the old-school, upper-echelons in that button-up town.

This observation may not be applicable to you in your situation, of course. It''s just food for thought, and since it seemed like it *might* apply (and be the thing a person would not realize until retrospect), I figured I''d toss it out there. I mean, your husband showing up in Chinese households and walking around barefoot... um, *might* this fact alone give you pause that the two of you are in a new land and might not yet be aware of a rather significant cultural nuances that could harm your reputations? Couldn''t your friend''s comments actually be a blessing in disguise?

Phoenix, I agree with Fleur to a point. Everything she says is very valid. I can remember being schooled on all things Canadian by a Chinese Canadian when we moved here. It could well be that she is looking out for you and doesn''t want you committing social suicide when in "company".

I can remember being apalled at some of the table manners, or lack of them rather I witnessed when I moved here. I very quickly had to learn that this was the accepted way they do things here and I was the one that was out of line - Canadian PS''rs, don''t bite me OK, I am no longer judgemental.

That being said, the comment about your husband seems out of line to me. I can think of no good "helpful" reason why she would have said that to you.

Good luck to you in your new environment.

 

[Gailey]

I will just add that should your friend ever visit Alberta, Canada and be invited to someone''s home, she had best be prepared to take off her shoes, no matter the weather.

Every culture differs in someway to another and the savvy traveller will quickly learn what is acceptable in someone else''s homeland and what is not. I find this concept can be a little difficult to grasp by people who have never been outside of their own borders.

 

[lyra]

Date: 9/26/2009 4:44:33 PM
Author: Gailey
I will just add that should your friend ever visit Alberta, Canada and be invited to someone''s home, she had best be prepared to take off her shoes, no matter the weather.

Every culture differs in someway to another and the savvy traveller will quickly learn what is acceptable in someone else''s homeland and what is not. I find this concept can be a little difficult to grasp by people who have never been outside of their own borders.

This is true for all of Canada.

So....what were the bad table manners?

 

[canuk-gal]

Date: 9/26/2009 5:19:09 PM
Author: lyra

Date: 9/26/2009 4:44:33 PM
Author: Gailey
I will just add that should your friend ever visit Alberta, Canada and be invited to someone''s home, she had best be prepared to take off her shoes, no matter the weather.

Every culture differs in someway to another and the savvy traveller will quickly learn what is acceptable in someone else''s homeland and what is not. I find this concept can be a little difficult to grasp by people who have never been outside of their own borders.

This is true for all of Canada.

So....what were the bad table manners?

HI:

Except in my house--or my neighbours....or my sister''s...or my Mom''s....

cheers--Sharon

 

[VRBeauty]

Date: 9/26/2009 4:44:33 PM
Author: Gailey

Every culture differs in someway to another and the savvy traveller will quickly learn what is acceptable in someone else''s homeland and what is not. I find this concept can be a little difficult to grasp by people who have never been outside of their own borders.

So true.

Many cultures also have different mores about personal boundaries and offering advice. Comments that might be considered intrusive or "buttinsky" in the U.S might be considered OK elsewhere.

 

[swingirl]

I am confused about the sock thing. If a woman wears high-heals and takes them off in someone''s house it is unlikely that she would be wearing socks with high heals. Or sandals or flip flops.

So if you are expected to take off your shoes but not go barefoot---what do you do? Bring your own socks just in case? Or should the host offer some sort of acceptable foot coverings? What is the correct thing to do?

 

[lyra]

I don''t know what the answer is for women and heels. I just said it''s something I would never do. Not saying there aren''t people who do go barefeet in other people''s houses. Obviously there are exceptions too. I just mean at informal gatherings, in general, in Canada, we take off our shoes pretty much automatically. Many women still wear hosiery with dress shoes too, which is not barefoot. Just depends really. I''m sure there are some that feel the opposite is true, that we should never take our shoes off in their houses. I just hate the idea of the germs that are carried around on shoes.

 

[Bliss]

Wow. She strikes me as the "Well, I NEVER!" dames who act shocked when societal norms are broken - yet break them themselved by making others feel ashamed or uncomfortable. Classy people are gracious to the end and never make their guests feel small. Grace can shelter a thousand gaffes and they can be corrected gently in a more compassionate manner.

It sounds from what you wrote that she let her complaints loose and added in a personal jab to boot. Maybe she is emotional and unused to having company from other parts of the world. In either case, if you aren''t able to laugh it off and take it all in stride, this friendship could be more stress than enjoyment.

I was thinking, why would she complain about the no socks thing? Women wear heels often with no socks or hoisery. I would imagine that she has a foot phobia and assumed that men wearing shoes with no socks all day = smelly feet? That was puzzling. If it were a formal affair, then men should wear socks for a dinner party or pot luck if everyone is dressed up. Maybe she sees men''s bare feet as unappetizing at dinner? Hmmm... I don''t quite get that.

I am sure as a classy lady yourself, your husband is equally a great gent and she sounds a little overboard in her criticism. It would sting me, too.

((HUGS))

 

[MakingTheGrade]

She may just think you two are closer friends than you really are, and is comfortable enough to make off-color comments?

I''ve had close friends make playful jokes at my hubby''s expense, and I''ve certainly gotten comments about my clothes from friends before too. Sometimes they''re just giving me a hard time, but sometimes they mean well when they remark that my shoes might not be appropriate for the occasion as they''re just trying to cue me in on what is "the norm" so that I don''t unknowingly stand out in a bad way. Hehe, they don''t mind if I Knowingly dress oddly (which I sometimes do!), but they know I was raised in a different culture, and might not always be aware of social expectations and implications, so they let me know out of concern and not cattiness.

 

[wolftress]

It just sounds to me like she doesn''t want you to make any faux pas in a new country. From how you have described her, I don''t think there is any maliciousness, just a lack of tact. I don''t know what you can do except thank her for her ''advice'' but gently let her know her comments make you feel uncomfortable.

 

[Phoenix]

Wow, I woke up to find all these responses. Thanks very much, everyone, for responding. Your replies are certainly food for thought.

To clarify something about the barefoot issue. In a lot of other Asian coutries (Vietnam, Hong Kong, Singapore, Malaysia, Thailand etc), people *are* expected to take off their shoes when they go inside. In China, I think but am not sure that people also go barefoot or alternatively wear house sliipers when they step inside someone's home or their own. In all these countries, shoes that are worn outside are seen as unhygienic - literally - since the streets are grimy and dirty; it is the *norm*. This friend and her husband take off their own shoes in their home, except that the husband wears socks. I take off my shoes when I am there and go barefoot and she's fine with that, as she herself goes barefoot too in their home and in our home when they come over. We've also been to another couple's place in SH, and we and they also go barefoot, or wear house slippers. When we came to this friend's house for this pot luck dinner, she never offered slippers so we figured it'd be fine to go barefoot. When she made the complaints later, she made it clear to me that she "hates* MEN going barefoot (she "just doesn't like to see men's feet") and who wear shorts; so she always makes sure that her husband *only* wears long pants/ trousers and always socks. I told her that had it been a formal dinner instead of pot luck or had she specified a dress-code beforehand, for sure my DH would have donned his trousers, as we do know social etiquette (or at least we think we do

). She agreed with that.

As for my dress sense, I will observe what other women wear in SH and go from there. I thanked her for the "suggestion" and agreed that i would tone down in her presence. I think that it's the right thing to do, since my dressing clearly made her uncomfortable. Whether outside her presence I'd continue to dress the way I always have would depend I guess on what's socially acceptable in SH. I have to say though I've seen some women, both Chinese and Western, wear ultra-short shorts and skirts (which I no longer wear myself, since some 7-8 yrs ago), but I can't say with certainly what's the norm or social acceptance re low-cut blouses.

What I did and still do find rather objectionable is her comment as to why I'd married my DH. I wanted to tell her that a marriage is about more than just how you dress or how you seem suited to each other on the outside on the superficial level, but I elected to keep my mouth shut. I figured she'd be upset (as she strikes me as being quite a strong-minded person) or I might appear too defensive.

I think what I'll do is to keep my distance from her, a bit. Whilst I don't think I need to burn any bridges, i don't need to "hang out" with her as often as I have thus far; maybe just once a week or once every two weeks would suffice. I don't think she meant any malice or ill-will, perhaps she lacks some tact but also perhaps she meant well too and wanted us to fit better into this new social environment.

Thank you, PS'ers. Your replies have enabled me to be able to see "this situation" from different perspectives and to really think through this "friendship" and how to act in an acceptable manner whilst still maintaining my grace.

 

[KimberlyH]

Phoenix, your response seems level headed and reasonable; very classy of you. While I understand she may be trying to help you understand the cultural norms and mores of a new community, her behavior was gauche and her comment about your selection in spouse completely unneccessary.

 

[HappyAnniversary]

The only person who has ever made a comment on my choice of husband (to me at least) was an international student who said (just before we got married), that she didn''t think he was right for me and why did I choose him? I was surprised by the bluntness but let it pass and we just celebrated 30 years of blissful marriage ( really) so its a good thing I didn''t listen. BUT she was a great friend and I just saw it as cultural differences as to what is acceptable to say. Yes, I think my international friends were a little more blunt about "butting" into personal decisions about boyfriends than I was used to.

I recently talked to an American who had been living in Hong Kong for several years and just moved back--she commented on how brightly dressed every one was here. She said in HK bright colors were considered garish, and neutrals were sophisticated and classy. (my terms but you get the idea)

My take on your friend is that she is trying to kindly let you know the subtle rules of this culture. What if a husband of your friend came to your house, he was inappropriately dressed for the occasion and committed a definite social etiquette mistake that other people in the party thought was gross. Would you tell her, or let it go? I would want the friend to tell me.

And does it matter to you if other people think you are dressed too sexy? If she thought you did, most likely many other people you interacted with thought so, too. Is that ok with you? A little cleavage to you might look like a hooker to them, or a woman who wants . . .well, you get my drift. Again, what if a friend from another country comes to visit you and when you go out, she''s dressed too sexy, and you see the looks, reaction that other people are giving her. You know she''s nice, but is it your business to tell her that she''s over to top? What if she is embarrassing you?

My absolute most fun with the international students I interacted with was to talk about social norms in their culture. Without going into specifics of what she said about your husband, why not talk about what does a "good" guest do, wear, say? What does a low cut top imply? What would be rude to say to a guest, a friend? What constitutes a good husband/wife ? What is rude in public? at the movies? on the streets? How important is the clothing one chooses, is the person more important or the clothes? It is really interesting and may help you have a better relationship with your friend.

For example, one friend thought it was incredibly rude when American students were eating something in the grad room and did not offer it to the person they were talking with. You never ate in front of someone without offering them the food, too. Everyone knew that was good manners!, (except the grad student)

Anyway, I ramble. Don''t forget to take advantage of the opportunity to see where your friend is coming from, and learn more about the culture (from her perspective)--Is the friendship good enough to take it to the level of really discussing things like that? Maybe you''ll find it is more generational than cultural?

 

[cindygenit]

Date: 9/26/2009 9:31:14 PM
Author: wolftress
It just sounds to me like she doesn''t want you to make any faux pas in a new country. From how you have described her, I don''t think there is any maliciousness, just a lack of tact. I don''t know what you can do except thank her for her ''advice'' but gently let her know her comments make you feel uncomfortable.

Agree with wolftress completely.

 

[kenny]

This is a tough one.
I'm all for diversity.
But I'm all about respect for other cultures when visiting their country too.

When I was in the military I was stationed in three other countries for 18 month tours of duty.
Upon arrival we were sent to cultural sensitivity training.
I found out Americans are this way and locals are that way.

They told us don't turn into a local, but here are the things that are real potential conflicts waiting to happen.
It was very very helpful.
Without this training I would have completely misread the locals on several important occasions.

I don't know what the answer is here but I just wanted to say when in Rome do as the Romans do - to an extent.
Ask around in your new location to make sure this is not just one woman's opinion.