VACCINES: Please read.

[Porridge]

Date: 11/6/2009 8:17:54 PM
Author: Jas12
ksigner--what you wrote is well articulated, but i don't buy it, not for a minute. Skepticism is healthy, skepticism is a MUST. Blindly trust our government to make choices about our health care.....are you serious? I have no doubt you are a science minded individual of the utmost integrity, but i doubt the many ppl pumping out vaccines for big pharma fall into that category. I am not saying vaccines are of no value, i just believe we need to be very, very wary of the motivations behind them. The US gov. doesn't exactly have a perfect track record in this department (or any dept for that matter), and ignoring this is plain dangerous IMO.


I guess you could dismiss me as one of the irrational ppl looking for someone to blame. My sister became a Type 1 diabetic after her pancreas failed following an immunization. She went to see a pediatrician (specialist) who later contacted her for study b/c he was noticing a statistically-significant # of kids with the same chain of events. This man wasn't being paid to produce these findings (of course not, in fact he admitted pressure to ignore them!) and he is still working on the case. My family never closely questioned the safety of any medical procedure until it hit close to home. Isn't that how it usually works? Ppl rarely just take up a random cause. I don't think that makes us irrational and alarmist--that makes us concerned citizens with critical thinking skills.

Something i believe 'science' often needs a dose of.

And just this month a family friend has been hospitalized (in intensive care ) due to a severe reaction 15 mins following her H1N1 vaccine. Is her reaction a rare event? Most definitely, just like dying from H1N1 is, but it's interesting how the 3 hospitalizations in our city due to this flu are mentioned in the daily news, but the severe side effect was not. Things that make you go 'hmmmm'


.....


I *will* vaccinate my kids against truly life-threatening illnesses, but i am still undecided re: yearly flu shots & have opted to not get one myself and probably won't for my children either. I am just not sure & i have to live with that uncertainty . But something about needle after needle full of crap into my child's body every year just doesn't sit well. My gut says no.

I'm sorry to hear about your sister and family friend Jas. But I think if you read back on this thread, nobody is saying that everyone with a story is irrational and looking for someone to blame. It has been explained that yes, medications can cause bad reactions in some people. Because every person is different. That is why the doctor discusses risks with us before medicating. So of course it is not irrational.

The point is that preventative medicine has eradicated some truly dreadful diseases, and vastly reduced many more. The proof is there, it is simply fact, nobody can argue with it. The benefit far outweighs the risk. The problem is that people seem to be of the opinion that "science", as it is phrased, specifically medication, is out to make money by harming people. It would seem that there is a belief that there is a magic cure out there with none of these risks or side effects that has been somehow kept from the public for greedy purposes. This is simply ludicrous. Just as car engines are not 100% efficient, just as computers sometimes freeze, just as with everything else in the world, there just is no known perfect solution.

Where there are people there will be greed, of course. It is good to question, to do proper research and be informed. But medicine and science is constantly striving for improvement, just like everything else. There majority of scientists go into the field of healthcare research because they want to help make things better, and they are doing just that. Surely the benefits are obvious? Or are we so used to them that we've become blind? I'm speaking for the stats I know here, which is Europe, but that is why we are living longer, that is why infant mortality is down, that is why polio, TB, measles, mumps, small pox etc etc are now practically unheard of, that is why people with disabilities, special needs, chronic illnesses and the elderly have the possibility to lead better and longer lives, that is why I can see perfectly even though I was not born with good vision. The list is endless, and it is constantly improving. I for one am grateful.

 

[luckystar112]

Date: 11/6/2009 8:49:10 PM
Author: thing2of2
This is quickly approaching tin foil hat status.

This

 

[monarch64]

What I take from this thread is the point that we all should think about things before we just take for granted that we are being properly informed. That sort of goes along with anything in life--think for yourself, what is best for you and yours, and don''t just believe everything you hear and see...this thread has made me think twice about getting a flu shot of any type, or vaccinations, etc. Sure, I was vaccinated as a child, and then did the meningitis vacc when I wa in college and there were several outbreaks, but at this point in life, 32, no children, not involved in health care, my decision is a bit easier than most posting here. If I had children I''m sure I would have a ton more research to do and a lot more to think about. Everyone has made good and valid points. That''s the beauty of PS, we have so many informed people from different backgrounds/walks of life who share knowledge, opinions, and information, and we can discuss these things because there NEEDS to be discussion. I''m learning so much about all sides of the vaccination topic just because it''s been brought up here. Thanks Ellen, I may not agree with you, or with the opposing side, but I''m LEARNING. And I''m now doing a bit more reading on my own because it''s such a controversial issue. I appreciate when people take stands on either side. It gives me a chance to gain knowledge and think more about my own stance, which really remains undetermined.

 

[ksinger]

Date: 11/6/2009 7:13:10 PM
Author: HollyS

Date: 11/6/2009 1:34:38 PM
Author: LtlFirecracker
For those of you against immunizations, go to a clinic in a third world county and than tell me if you think the risk of the immunization outweighs the devastating consequences these diseases have.

Too many people have forgotten about these diseases or are too young to remember them. It is sad that so many scientists spend years in school in a hope to make a positive impact in the world are being accused of having purely selfish motives.

Well said. And really, there is no debating this post. We have less disease in the world, and certainly in the U.S., because of our policies on immunizations. . . regardless of anyone''s personal opinion here on the motives of: doctors, health professionals, drug makers, or our government.

But quackery, well, there''s something we can believe in! That reminds me, I should make an appointment with an astral healer about my allergies. Or maybe buy a crystal or something.

And you KNOW it''s got to be a position with INCREDIBLE amounts of heft and INCREDIBLE and irrefutable evidence, when Holly and I are in perfect agreement on the subject.

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 11/6/2009 9:55:48 PM
Author: ksinger

Date: 11/6/2009 7:13:10 PM
Author: HollyS

Date: 11/6/2009 1:34:38 PM
Author: LtlFirecracker
For those of you against immunizations, go to a clinic in a third world county and than tell me if you think the risk of the immunization outweighs the devastating consequences these diseases have.

Too many people have forgotten about these diseases or are too young to remember them. It is sad that so many scientists spend years in school in a hope to make a positive impact in the world are being accused of having purely selfish motives.

Well said. And really, there is no debating this post. We have less disease in the world, and certainly in the U.S., because of our policies on immunizations. . . regardless of anyone''s personal opinion here on the motives of: doctors, health professionals, drug makers, or our government.

But quackery, well, there''s something we can believe in! That reminds me, I should make an appointment with an astral healer about my allergies. Or maybe buy a crystal or something.

And you KNOW it''s got to be a position with INCREDIBLE amounts of heft and INCREDIBLE and irrefutable evidence, when Holly and I are in perfect agreement on the subject.

Yup. Ski season just started in hell.

 

[iheartscience]

Date: 11/6/2009 9:55:48 PM
Author: ksinger

Date: 11/6/2009 7:13:10 PM

Author: HollyS

Date: 11/6/2009 1:34:38 PM

Author: LtlFirecracker

For those of you against immunizations, go to a clinic in a third world county and than tell me if you think the risk of the immunization outweighs the devastating consequences these diseases have.

Too many people have forgotten about these diseases or are too young to remember them. It is sad that so many scientists spend years in school in a hope to make a positive impact in the world are being accused of having purely selfish motives.

Well said. And really, there is no debating this post. We have less disease in the world, and certainly in the U.S., because of our policies on immunizations. . . regardless of anyone''s personal opinion here on the motives of: doctors, health professionals, drug makers, or our government.

But quackery, well, there''s something we can believe in! That reminds me, I should make an appointment with an astral healer about my allergies. Or maybe buy a crystal or something.

And you KNOW it''s got to be a position with INCREDIBLE amounts of heft and INCREDIBLE and irrefutable evidence, when Holly and I are in perfect agreement on the subject.

HA! Ditto.

 

[FrekeChild]

SKI SEASON?! Hell is a flipping ICE STORM/FROZEN TUNDRA/ICE CUBE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Either that or...I can't come up with anything.

I never thought I'd see the day where Holly and Karen would AGREE!


I might have to give up all of my shoes!

 

[purrfectpear]

Date: 11/6/2009 9:35:39 PM
Author: luckystar112

Date: 11/6/2009 8:49:10 PM
Author: thing2of2
This is quickly approaching tin foil hat status.

This

Pricescope was a bit more fun before every crackpot with a pet conspiracy theory decided to "warn" us all with "love"

 

[HollyS]

Date: 11/6/2009 9:55:48 PM
Author: ksinger

Date: 11/6/2009 7:13:10 PM
Author: HollyS

Date: 11/6/2009 1:34:38 PM
Author: LtlFirecracker
For those of you against immunizations, go to a clinic in a third world county and than tell me if you think the risk of the immunization outweighs the devastating consequences these diseases have.

Too many people have forgotten about these diseases or are too young to remember them. It is sad that so many scientists spend years in school in a hope to make a positive impact in the world are being accused of having purely selfish motives.

Well said. And really, there is no debating this post. We have less disease in the world, and certainly in the U.S., because of our policies on immunizations. . . regardless of anyone''s personal opinion here on the motives of: doctors, health professionals, drug makers, or our government.

But quackery, well, there''s something we can believe in! That reminds me, I should make an appointment with an astral healer about my allergies. Or maybe buy a crystal or something.

And you KNOW it''s got to be a position with INCREDIBLE amounts of heft and INCREDIBLE and irrefutable evidence, when Holly and I are in perfect agreement on the subject.

 

[HollyS]

PP, while I almost always agree with you, and fully understand your opinions, I have often been open-mouthed amazed at how . . . blunt to the point of unkindness you can sometimes be. I laugh, but then I cringe.

I wish you would dial it back a notch or two. Please. I know you don''t have to. I just thought I''d ask nicely.

 

[Heidi137]

I used to be very pro-vaccination UNTIL I watched my son drift away shortly after receiving his MMR vaccination. He was later diagnosed with autism. We saw absolutely no signs of autism prior to this. Later on, we also never dreamed that a shot of penicillin for strep would develop into cellulitis and a trip to a children''s hospital with an overnight stay for IV antibiotics. So...I will do my homework on any vaccinations my son receives in the future. It''s easy to dismiss any possible consequences if you haven''t been there...

 

[ksinger]

Date: 11/6/2009 8:17:54 PM
Author: Jas12
ksigner--what you wrote is well articulated, but i don''t buy it, not for a minute. Skepticism is healthy, skepticism is a MUST. Blindly trust our government to make choices about our health care.....are you serious? I have no doubt you are a science minded individual of the utmost integrity, but i doubt the many ppl pumping out vaccines for big pharma fall into that category. I am not saying vaccines are of no value, i just believe we need to be very, very wary of the motivations behind them. The US gov. doesn''t exactly have a perfect track record in this department (or any dept for that matter), and ignoring this is plain dangerous IMO.

I guess you could dismiss me as one of the irrational ppl looking for someone to blame. My sister became a Type 1 diabetic after her pancreas failed following an immunization. She went to see a pediatrician (specialist) who later contacted her for study b/c he was noticing a statistically-significant # of kids with the same chain of events. This man wasn''t being paid to produce these findings (of course not, in fact he admitted pressure to ignore them!) and he is still working on the case. My family never closely questioned the safety of any medical procedure until it hit close to home. Isn''t that how it usually works? Ppl rarely just take up a random cause. I don''t think that makes us irrational and alarmist--that makes us concerned citizens with critical thinking skills.
Something i believe ''science'' often needs a dose of.
And just this month a family friend has been hospitalized (in intensive care ) due to a severe reaction 15 mins following her H1N1 vaccine. Is her reaction a rare event? Most definitely, just like dying from H1N1 is, but it''s interesting how the 3 hospitalizations in our city due to this flu are mentioned in the daily news, but the severe side effect was not. Things that make you go ''hmmmm''

.....

I *will* vaccinate my kids against truly life-threatening illnesses, but i am still undecided re: yearly flu shots & have opted to not get one myself and probably won''t for my children either. I am just not sure & i have to live with that uncertainty . But something about needle after needle full of crap into my child''s body every year just doesn''t sit well. My gut says no.

Jas, if you think I don''t question our government you either never read my posts in the old political threads, or have done a core dump of what you DID read. (Understandable) Honestly, who, ANYWHERE at any time, ever promised us perfect safety for our kids or ourselves? When did we get the idea that drugs were supposed to be risk free?

In fact, the only contingent I hear making routine claims of perfect safety and reliability of their products, are those in the natural food and supplement industry, an industry with a BUNCH to lose if it becomes regulated in any way. But hey! It must be OK...it''s NATURAL!! Yeah...so is lead.

Skepticism IS healthy. I apply a goodly dose of it to most things every day. But what Ellen and others on here are displaying is a bifurcated illogical distrust of everything official simply BECAUSE it''s official or "accepted", a distrust they then refuse to apply equally to whacko anecdotal, and completely unsupported claims like Essiac being a cancer cure. (Re-read the part about my uncle. I''m VERY acquainted with this mindset.) Her original assertion was that "vaccines are BAD". At least that was to be inferred from her words AND her sources, which consisted mainly of Youtube videos (I know I go there FIRST, don''t you?) and statements from "doctors condemning vaccines" (note: not just H1N1, but ALL vaccines). Statements like this classic:

With reference to Smallpox;

"Vaccination is a monstrosity, a misbegotten offspring of error and ignorance, it should have no place in either hygiene or medicine...Believe not in vaccination, it is a world-wide delusion, an unscientific practise, a fatal superstition with consequences measured today by tears and sorrow without end."
Professor Chas Rauta, University of Perguia, Italy , (New York Medical Journal July 1899)

Heck, in 1899, this guy was probably dead-set against germ theory and the use of antisepsis too.

As "proof" or support of a antivaccine position, this guy''s statement has got to take the cake, truly.

Then, when the healthcare brigade on here eviscerated her sources, she changed her approach somewhat to point out the flaws in the government approval process of drugs in general, and vaccines in particular. A much better point to make, it has some teeth, but it still does not provide anything that would invalidate vaccination as a strategy (which has been wildly successful overall), nor does it implicate all vaccines as approved too soon with conflicts of interest, since many of them have been around for decades. Nor does it support the primary claims of the antivac people, which is that vaccines are bad because they cause autism, asthma, depression, boils, and ingrown toenails.

How one gets from distrusting all evidence based on the scientific method (the basis for virtually ALL of the science that allows us to live like we do) simply because it MAY at some time be tainted by messy human foibles, to an uncritical acceptance of something like Essiac is beyon...wait..not it''s NOT! Evidence of ANYTHING is simply ignored! Where there is NO evidence (as in thimerosol causing autism) I just refuse to believe it and say that they haven''t found evidence YET. I am thus absolved from looking at any evidence that contradicts my SUBJECTIVE INTUITIONS in the matter and my emotional need for a pat answer. However, when I find something that goes along with my SUBJECTIVE INTUITIONS, I won''t need any evidence at all. I won''t require any chemical analysis of Essiac to be sure it''s not tainted with THIMEROSOL, or to be sure that the formula is stable, with all the active ingredients always in the right proportions, or well-designed studies to see if cancer is actually cured by it. Hell, I won''t even ask if they KNOW what the active ingredients ARE or the mechanism by which the ingredients effect the alleged cure. I''ll just swallow it down and let it clean the mucous from my nerve channels and organs!!

What we have here is not any kind of analysis of the relative weights of any research, that is quite clear. What we are seeing is different standards applied to CDC versus Essiac, based on perception of "intent". So if I distrust your INTENT, then I don''t have to pay attention to any evidence you have, while if I think you''re a really nice person, I''ll believe any cockamamie claim you make. It''s insane.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 11/6/2009 11:37:15 PM
Author: HollyS
PP, while I almost always agree with you, and fully understand your opinions, I have often been open-mouthed amazed at how . . . blunt to the point of unkindness you can sometimes be. I laugh, but then I cringe.

I wish you would dial it back a notch or two. Please. I know you don''t have to. I just thought I''d ask nicely.

x2.

 

[LtlFirecracker]

Date: 11/6/2009 7:13:10 PM
Author: HollyS

Date: 11/6/2009 1:34:38 PM

Author: LtlFirecracker

For those of you against immunizations, go to a clinic in a third world county and than tell me if you think the risk of the immunization outweighs the devastating consequences these diseases have.


Too many people have forgotten about these diseases or are too young to remember them. It is sad that so many scientists spend years in school in a hope to make a positive impact in the world are being accused of having purely selfish motives.

Well said. And really, there is no debating this post. We have less disease in the world, and certainly in the U.S., because of our policies on immunizations. . . regardless of anyone''s personal opinion here on the motives of: doctors, health professionals, drug makers, or our government.


But quackery, well, there''s something we can believe in! That reminds me, I should make an appointment with an astral healer about my allergies. Or maybe buy a crystal or something.

Thanks!

 

[Ellen]