VACCINES: Please read.

[AprilBaby]

"We are only having this discussion because the vast majority of people here have never seen, nor even known, a person who had one of the diseases that we now routinely vaccinate against. Ironically we are to a great degree, damned by our own success, and people's woefully short historical memories. (I found it particularly amusing one day when a young gal in my office said, "Well, I mean, what's the big deal with smallpox anyway, I mean, it's just like chickenpox." After I picked my jaw up off the floor, I educated her swiftly.) Also, back in 1981, when I was in college and a goodly portion of the women here who are now of child-bearing age were likely not yet born, I became friends with a woman who was in the first stages of post polio syndrome. What she went through over the ensuing years was an eye-opener. I personally have had shingles, and know someone who suffers daily from post herpetic neuralgia. It's pretty vile. "

I have had chicken pox, measles, and mumps and I am fine. My grandfather had polio. He led a fine life. ( I realize polio is much more severe, my point being I DO know people who had polio) Not to put down vaccination, but I am happier that I have natural immunity. I didn't lose a single classmate to ANY of the big three MM/CP nor do I know anyone of my geneartion who knows someone who died of it. I feel we over vaccinate for things which we might have been better off just aquiring naturally. BTW, I am a healthcare worker and I will NOT be recieving the swine flu shot. Neither will my associates or my physicians office.

 

[LtlFirecracker]

Ellen,

I understand you are trying to do what you think is best, but, did you research the validity of any of these articles, or take them at face value? I looked into a couple of them.

http://www.generationrescue.org/blaylock/Truth-behind-vaccine-cover-up.pdf

the author is a retired neurosurgen who makes his money writing books on "government cover ups" and and is now affiliated with certain Christian groups who lead these anti-immunization campaigns. His positions are not based on modern science. These anti-immunization groups are very good at making their info look like they are based on good research in the eyes of lay person. However, no real journal article (I have never heard of the journal) would put key points in bold in the body of the article.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell_Blaylock

Were you aware the the swine flu is most dangerous to children under 2? That kids are dying from this? One of my friends just witnessed a child die 2 weeks ago. Bet those parents are wishing a vaccine was around. This vaccine was made is the same manner the previous flu immunizations have been made. Every year the immunization is made with the strains that are predicted to be most prevalent. This year, the regular vaccine was already in production when the swine flu became a problem, so they had to make a separate one.

The mercury in immunizations has not been shown to be at toxic levels, you probably ingest more if you eat certain cold water fish. And There was one study done that was published in the Lancet in the mid nineties. Since then, several of the authors have revoked their position on that study and several studies have shown their is no link between autism and immunizations. In fact, the rate of autism is slightly higher in the unimmunized population. The rate of autism has not changes after the removal of thimerosal.

Here are some resources on the topic.

http://www.iom.edu/en/Reports/2004/Immunization-Safety-Review-Vaccines-and-Autism.aspx

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/updates/thimerosal.htm


Here is a general site by the AAP which includes pictures of some of the diseases we are protecting our children against.


http://www.cispimmunize.org/

And how can someone argue that the immunizations (esp the polio vaccine) has not made an impact on these diseases? When is the last time you have seen someone with polio in the US? It used to be so common, they would be whole hospital units to deal with the respiratory failure people developed. The reason why we couldn't eradicate is because there are cultures in the world who have these anti-immunization views. I have seen two cases of chicken pox during my residency. This is a disease that in a significant amount of people caused permeant brain damage. Newborns were at highest risk. When is the last time anyone has seen a baby with congenital Rubella syndrome? If a mother got Rubella during pregnancy, there was a chance their baby would have serious malformations including congenital heart disease and mental retardation. I can tell you the HIB vaccine has changed pediatrics. Meningitis in newborns and epiglottitis (a disease which caused the throat to close unless their was prompt diagnosis and placement of an advanced airway) are complications of this bacterial infection. I have never seen H. flu, the generation above me will never forget it.

The reason this is a big deal, is to keep these disease under control, a certain percentage of the population needs to be immunized. The concept is called herd immunity. The measles outbreak in San Diego occurred (which I was there for) because there is a significant percentage of the population who are not immunized, so it was allowed to spread. One in every 500-1000 people who get measles will have severe neurologic complications from that disease.

I have a lot more I can say on this topic, but I will stop here.

I fight for immunizations because I truly believe they are in the best interest of our children and population.

 

[mayachel]

Date: 10/31/2009 11:49:26 PM
Author: MakingTheGrade

Date: 10/31/2009 11:17:17 PM


Honestly, every drug developed has the potential to cause fatal consequences, and vaccines are no exception. The FDA often has to recall drugs because during trials, you simply don''t have a large enough patient population to bring out all the potential side effects since the most fatal ones are often very rare, and only seen after hundreds of thousands of people have taken it. Given how many people receive multiple vaccinations, the cases of fatal/serious reactions is actually remarkably low in comparison IMO. That''s not to say it NEVER happens, but it is very rare, so I would just carefully look at the risk to benefit ratio, the current literature on vaccination risks, and make an educated choice. A recent study in the Pediatrics journal showed that those that were not vaccinated against Pertussis had a 23x increase in catching it. I personally think 23 fold increase is much larger than the 1 in 500,000 chance of a severe reaction, not to mention the effect on the community.

Makingthegrade, I think that this statement you made is well put and is extremely important for us all to keep in mind.

I live in NYC and am in the health care environment. In september, we were notified that it would be manditory to receive both the seasonal and H1N1 vaccine. This was than modified to say "when it becomes available, but by Nov. 1st". Guess what? We still don''t have enough vaccines, and so they have downgraded it to "we strongly encourage you to get them if and when they become available"

Since I work with pregnant women and newborns, I believe it is my responsibility being an otherwise healthy and allergy free person, to get the vaccines as able, on behalf of the care that I give and my patient contact. It doesn''t mean there aren''t MANY health care workers, who aren''t leery about it. For the very fact that we ARE either more informed than the average patient about the significance of trials and testings and recalls that happen in medicine.

I find that it is important to acknowledge to my patients, that yes, we "believe" this to be safe based on previous evidence and understanding of vaccines, but no, we can not, and should not be asked to proclaim it effective beyond all measure with no risk what so ever. What I think tends to drive my patients crazy, are the health care workers who are tired of explaining the pros and cons and blow them off with little information or acknowledgement of their (legitimate) concerns.

 

[MakingTheGrade]

Date: 11/1/2009 3:18:41 PM
Author: mayachel
Since I work with pregnant women and newborns, I believe it is my responsibility being an otherwise healthy and allergy free person, to get the vaccines as able, on behalf of the care that I give and my patient contact. It doesn''t mean there aren''t MANY health care workers, who aren''t leery about it. For the very fact that we ARE either more informed than the average patient about the significance of trials and testings and recalls that happen in medicine.

Good for you! I have to admit, I don''t understand how health care workers who have substantial patient contact can choose to not get vaccinated if they are coming into regular contact with the ill, elderly, or very young. That''s gambling with the lives of patients, not just your own!

 

[neatfreak]

Date: 11/1/2009 3:12:35 PM
Author: LtlFirecracker
I understand you are trying to do what you think is best, but, did you research the validity of any of these articles, or take them at face value? I looked into a couple of them.

I really don't think anyone who believes these articles has researched them thoroughly. Just because someone who wrote it is a retired doctor or is otherwise involved with the medical field does NOT mean the info is GOOD info.

Obviously everyone has to make their own decision about vaccines. But PLEASE before trying to influence other people's decisions make sure your "research" is well done.

And really? Vaccines as conspiracy theory? Why don't you tell that to all the children across the world disfigured by these diseases. Or better yet talk to a parent whose child has been killed by one of these diseases.

Mark my words-if people do not vaccinate their children we WILL see a resurgence of these deadly diseases in the US. Children WILL be killed and severely disfigured. We have already seen a few small outbreaks of diseases that were supposedly eradicated because of loss of herd immunity because of parents choosing not to vaccinate. And it's a lot scarier than the potential side effects of a vaccine.

 

[sparklyheart]

Date: 11/1/2009 3:12:35 PM
Author: LtlFirecracker

And how can someone argue that the immunizations (esp the polio vaccine) has not made an impact on these diseases? When is the last time you have seen someone with polio in the US? It used to be so common, they would be whole hospital units to deal with the respiratory failure people developed.

My thoughts exactly. Also, vaccines don''t just help you, they help those who cannot be protected by vaccines.. For example, if your 10 year old gets exposed to pertussis (a vaccine-preventable disease), it may not be a big deal... but if your 3 month old, who has no immunity from it, is exposed to pertussis then it can be extremely harmful. Or, consider a person with a compromised immune system who cannot get a live-virus vaccine (i.e. MMR) so if everyone else is protected from it then they can help provide herd immunity to the sickest people who cannot otherwise be protected.

Also, how many people do you know who have had bad reactions to vaccines? Yes, SOME people have bad reactions to vaccines, which is why some reactions are considered contraindications to vaccines. Does this mean everyone should stop getting vaccinated because a small part of the population reacts badly?? What if we stopped using penicillin because SOME people have bad reactions?? How many people would be dead because of that? Instead we try it and if it has a bad reaction then we don''t use it again. There is no way to know what reaction a person will have from a shot or medication.

How many people do you know who are autistic? If vaccines were truly causing autism (which btw has been disproven more times than it has been proven), then don''t you think a larger part of the population would be autistic? The majority of the population does still choose to vaccinate their children but the majority of the population is not autistic. I wish people would stop clinging to every scrape of hope for a cause for autism. The shot theory is so overdoacne and studies have shown that autism truly appears before children even get the shots that people were claiming cause autism.

Ellen, I appreciate the time and effort you put into this but please don''t forget to look at the other side of the story. There will always be anti-establishment people/organizations who are more than willing to throw their thoughts out there to sway people. Some of them may even have valid points but please don''t start thinking vaccines are pointless and have never done anyone any good. Like I said in another vaccine thread, how many people would turn down something like a breast cancer vaccine?? It''s so much more prevalant here in the U.S. than, say, polio, measles, mumps, rubella, pertussis, diptheria...because we have vaccines to prevent the spread of these dangerous diseases!

 

[Ellen]

I appreciate all of your comments, and I especially appreciate that everyone kept it civil. I do realize this is a topic with potential for heated comments/debate. Much of what I would offer back in response to many of the comments, is already in the data given (which leads me to think many comments were made without reading/watching, but I could be wrong), so I''ll let it go at that. If one chooses to ignore it, or not read it, that is their perogative. But a lot of it is based on official reports from the govt., I''m not sure how one refutes that.


Ltl, does being Christian automatically nullify his intelligence? (I really don''t even know why you brought that up, what difference does it make? Being Christian isn''t "bad", quite the contrary) Does it take away his medical degree? Does it void the questions he asked, that revealed some damning evidence? Like, the proper studies really haven''t been done? That some questions he raised had never even been considered? And what about this quote:

At this point Dr. Johnson tells the group of his concerns for

his own grandchild. He says, (page 200)

“Forgive this personal

comment, but I got called out at eight o’clock for an

emergency call and my daughter-in-law delivered a son by

C-section. Our first male in the line of the next generation

and I do not want that grandson to get a Thimerosal containing

vaccine until we know better what is going on. It

will probably take a long time. In the meantime, and I know

there are probably implications for this internationally, but

in the meanwhile I think I want that grandson to only be

given Thimerosal-free vaccines.”

So, we have a scientist sitting on this panel which will eventually

make policy concerning all of the children in this country,

as well as other countries, who is terrified about his new

grandson getting a Thimerosal-containing vaccine but he is not

concerned enough about your child to speak out and try to stop

this insanity. He allows a cover-up to take place after this meeting

adjourns and remains silent.

```````````````````````````````````



Does that not bother you? Doesn''t that say something? (besides the fact that his comment admits they DON''T know the true repercussions of Thimerosal)



Kenny, I do not want everyone to be like me, but I want people to know there IS another side. We are not afforded that, on many issues. And that''s wrong.



The only thing I''ll add is that I had both the mumps and measles as a child, and the chicken pox at 30. I''m still here, as are many others. I will let this thread go now, it was never my intent to debate the issue, that could go on ad infinitum. I just wanted people to know both sides, they can take from it what they want.


Thanks again, El

 

[neatfreak]

Date: 11/1/2009 6:18:09 PM
Author: Ellen

The only thing I'll add is that I had both the mumps and measles as a child, and the chicken pox at 30. I'm still here, as are many others. I will let this thread go now, it was never my intent to debate the issue, that could go on ad infinitum. I just wanted people to know both sides, they can take from it what they want.

Just because YOU are still here and YOU had no side effects doesn't mean others were so lucky.

ETA: I should also add that yes I did read/watch what you presented. My question is did YOU do any background research to see where this info was really coming from? Just because a crackpot person wrote a book on the topic does not make him an expert. And MANY MANY more reputable people dispute him than agree with him.

 

[hlmr]

I appreciate you taking the time and effort to share information with us Ellen!

Being informed about all points of view is paramount, especially when it comes to our health.

I am still feeling very conflicted about flu vaccines in general, and especially the H1N1.

 

[Mara]

I agree that the reason that all the vaccinations are so hotly debated is because they have been so darn effective at what they do in general. Not many people (if any) remember what it was like before we had the vaccines protecting us...and allowing us to actually stand here years later questioning if they are the right way.

That said...on the flip side of 'talk to a parent whose child was hurt or died from an illness because a vaccination wasn't given or wasn't available' is the 'talk to the parent whose child died or had serious complications from a vaccine'. It is those 1 in a 10000 people who are often very vocal...and many of them probably wish they had someone encouraging them to research first.

Personally, I think everyone should read what they can and talk to whom they can, not rely on what is in the news, and make their own educated decisions on what they feel most comfortable about. As Kenny said, often times people act like 'any other way than my way is the wrong way'.

Until government requires vaccinations if you move anywhere in society (not likely?), there will be those who opt out for themselves or their children. The way of the mass immunizations for the herd may be a thing of the past. Bad for society? Potentially so....but do people make decisions based on what is good for society, or for themselves and their own families? I tend to think the latter.

 

[hlmr]

Date: 11/1/2009 6:55:25 PM
Author: neatfreak

Date: 11/1/2009 6:18:09 PM
Author: Ellen

The only thing I''ll add is that I had both the mumps and measles as a child, and the chicken pox at 30. I''m still here, as are many others. I will let this thread go now, it was never my intent to debate the issue, that could go on ad infinitum. I just wanted people to know both sides, they can take from it what they want.

Just because YOU are still here and YOU had no side effects doesn''t mean others were so lucky.

She didn''t state that everyone will/would survive the mumps, measles and pox without immunization.

I had all three as a child and also survived.

People reading can and will use their own intellect to make an informed decision, for themselves and for the masses.

 

[neatfreak]

Date: 11/1/2009 6:59:10 PM
Author: Mara
That said...on the flip side of ''talk to a parent whose child was hurt or died from an illness because a vaccination wasn''t given or wasn''t available'' is the ''talk to the parent whose child died or had serious complications from a vaccine''. It is those 1 in a 10000 people who are often very vocal...and many of them probably wish they had someone encouraging them to research first.

I would love to see links of *legitimate* cases where someone died from/were significantly maimed or harmed from vaccines and it wasn''t a coincidental death (this is an honest question as I haven''t seen/been able to find any)? I HAVE seen many many children/adults dead or disfigured from diseases that can easily be prevented from vaccines.

 

[sparklyheart]

Just a couple more comments..

Thimerosal has been used since at least the 1930s..it came under fire when it was used in large quantities and vaccines were given to children with underlying conditions where they would be more susceptible to many more things than the average person.

Also, you can ask your doctor for preservative-free immunizations. (aka-no thimerosal)

I agree with everyone who has said that parents need to do their research. Don''t just take some little snippit you heard on the news and run with it. Talk to your child''s doctor, ask for resources if you need to, and be educated when you make your decision.

 

[NovemberBride]

Posts like these are terrifying to me, particularly as a mother-to-be and someone with a background in public health. The hysteria that has recently arisen surrounding vaccines with no medical evidence to support it is astonishing. Yes, there is a very, very small percentage of the population that has a negative reaction to vaccines, and of that very small percentage, a tiny fraction has a serious reaction. This is not something that the CDC, FDA or pharmaceutical companies are hiding from you. In fact, you are informed of these risks as part of the informed consent process before receiving any vaccine. This is true of all medical interventions, but as others have mentioned, this does not indicate that we should abandon modern medicine. The US is already beginning to see repercussions from parents buying into this hysteria and refusing to vaccinate. There have been recent outbreaks of diseases such as whooping cough and measles that were all but eradicated in the US 10 years ago. Your child''s risk of death if they contract one of these diseases is much, much higher than their risk of a negative reaction to a vaccine. As more parents choose not to vaccinate, there will be an increasingly real threat of your child contracting these life-threatening diseases.

That said, I am all for people informing themselves about the issue. But the responsible way to inform yourself is to find a doctor you trust and have the discussion with him or her or read established medical journals. Searching the internet and reading websites with dubious origins is not a responsible way of informing yourself about what is truly a life or death decision. It scares me that people may decide to vaccinate their children or not based on a posting on an internet message board.

 

[LtlFirecracker]

Ellen, I will try to answer that question without breaking policy. There are some small sects of people, many of whom are associated by faith (although they are not the mainstream) who have been campaigning against immunizations long before Jenny McCarthy and the vaccine autism debate that has brought this into the mainstream. This physician is writing articles for that group, I am not sure what he personally believes.

Here is a great article given to me by one of my classmates. It is long, but it really does a nice job of showing how the anti-vacceine industry bends facts for their positions. One tactic they are using is scapegoating single physicians by saying they are only in this for fincicial incentives. This artcle constrasts the things that are being said by the anti-immunization industry with the true life of this physician and his real motivations for dedicating his life to the fight against disease in children.

http://www.wired.com/magazine/2009/10/ff_waronscience/

 

[neatfreak]

Date: 11/1/2009 7:26:04 PM
Author: LtlFirecracker
Ellen, I will try to answer that question without breaking policy. There are some small sects of people, many of whom are associated by faith (although they are not the mainstream) who have been campaigning against immunizations long before Jenny McCarthy and the vaccine autism debate that has brought this into the mainstream. This physician is writing articles for that group, I am not sure what he personally believes.


Here is a great article given to me by one of my classmates. It is long, but it really does a nice job of showing how the anti-vacceine industry bends facts for their positions. One tactic they are using is scapegoating single physicians by saying they are only in this for fincicial incentives. This artcle constrasts the things that are being said by the anti-immunization industry with the true life of this physician and his real motivations for dedicating his life to the fight against disease in children.


http://www.wired.com/magazine/2009/10/ff_waronscience/

I was going to link that article too. It''s really a great article in a surprising place.

 

[kennedy]

Date: 11/1/2009 6:18:09 PM
Author: Ellen
I appreciate all of your comments, and I especially appreciate that everyone kept it civil. I do realize this is a topic with potential for heated comments/debate. Much of what I would offer back in response to many of the comments, is already in the data given (which leads me to think many comments were made without reading/watching, but I could be wrong), so I'll let it go at that. If one chooses to ignore it, or not read it, that is their perogative. But a lot of it is based on official reports from the govt., I'm not sure how one refutes that.



Ltl, does being Christian automatically nullify his intelligence? (I really don't even know why you brought that up, what difference does it make? Being Christian isn't 'bad', quite the contrary) Does it take away his medical degree? Does it void the questions he asked, that revealed some damning evidence? Like, the proper studies really haven't been done? That some questions he raised had never even been considered? And what about this quote:




The only thing I'll add is that I had both the mumps and measles as a child, and the chicken pox at 30. I'm still here, as are many others. I will let this thread go now, it was never my intent to debate the issue, that could go on ad infinitum. I just wanted people to know both sides, they can take from it what they want.

Ellen -- I can't speak for others, but I have looked at your links and find your sources more than a bit questionable.

Take Dr. Blaylock, for instance: The reason his religious background is relevant here is that it appears to inform his rather bizarre scientific views. More importantly, he is affiliated with an organization (the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons) and was on the editorial board of their journal. Amongst this organization's questionable beliefs: that the "gay male lifestyle" shortens life expectancy by 20 years; that increased carbon dioxide in the atmosphere has not caused global warming; that HIV does not cause AIDS. He also believes that Bill Clinton gave pardons and "free access to the Whitehouse" to "syndicate crime families" and that he allowed "Chinese ships" to give weapons to gangs in Los Angeles. The mere fact that he earned an MD means nothing to me about his credibility. It sounds to me like he is both delusional and paranoid and not someone to whom I would turn for valid scientific opinions.

Another of your articles comes from Generation Rescue, Jenny McCarthy's website. Need I say more?

And yet another source is just some guy (Ian Sinclair) who is anti-vaccine. He has no credentials whatsoever and makes some pretty big claims without any valid scientific data to support his positions.

We can all go on the internet to find "evidence" that supports any position we want to take. The mere fact that it's in print means nothing about whether it's valid or accurate.

I wanted to make one final comment: As the mother of a very young child, I would be thrilled if there was some way to guarantee my child's safety. No one likes giving their children vaccines because, yes, the possibility of a negative reaction exists. But there is also the very real and more likely possibility that the child could contract the illness itself. In the end, that scares me much more and the numbers support that fear. I also feel a sense of responsibility to my community and would never rely on or expect others to do their part in order to keep my child safe.

 

[icekid]

Date: 11/1/2009 6:55:25 PM
Author: neatfreak

Date: 11/1/2009 6:18:09 PM

Author: Ellen


The only thing I''ll add is that I had both the mumps and measles as a child, and the chicken pox at 30. I''m still here, as are many others. I will let this thread go now, it was never my intent to debate the issue, that could go on ad infinitum. I just wanted people to know both sides, they can take from it what they want.

Just because YOU are still here and YOU had no side effects doesn''t mean others were so lucky.


ETA: I should also add that yes I did read/watch what you presented. My question is did YOU do any background research to see where this info was really coming from? Just because a crackpot person wrote a book on the topic does not make him an expert. And MANY MANY more reputable people dispute him than agree with him.

C''mon neat- sample size of one! You don''t want real evidence, do you? You know, I once knew of this guy who cured himself of cancer by jumping off a cliff! I don''t really think we should bother with that crazy surgery or chemotherapy anymore.

Really, I have nothing more to add to this than what has already been eloquently said by neat, Ltl, MTG, and NovermberBride. When you do not vaccinate, you are putting more than yourself at risk. Period. We are absolutely going to see a resurgence of deadly infectious diseases and that thought is frightening to me.

And umm, wow- polio is DEVASTATING. Again, sample size of one person who did well does not negate this fact

This is not a very PC thing to say, but most folks simply do not have the knowledge to read legitimate scholarly articles and make decisions based upon them. Physicians train for many years to gain the ability to do so. I am all for people educating themselves and researching before making decisions. But, doing so requires a huge amount of fortitude in being sure not to be swayed by pop culture opinions with no basis in science. Therefore, I really think this is best done in conjunction with a medical professional.

 

[LtlFirecracker]

Neatfreak -

Just wanted to let you know I have used some of your quotes from past discussions when talking to people and they have been very effective

 

[hlmr]

Date: 11/1/2009 7:32:47 PM
Author: icekid

Date: 11/1/2009 6:55:25 PM
Author: neatfreak

Date: 11/1/2009 6:18:09 PM

Author: Ellen


The only thing I''ll add is that I had both the mumps and measles as a child, and the chicken pox at 30. I''m still here, as are many others. I will let this thread go now, it was never my intent to debate the issue, that could go on ad infinitum. I just wanted people to know both sides, they can take from it what they want.

Just because YOU are still here and YOU had no side effects doesn''t mean others were so lucky.


ETA: I should also add that yes I did read/watch what you presented. My question is did YOU do any background research to see where this info was really coming from? Just because a crackpot person wrote a book on the topic does not make him an expert. And MANY MANY more reputable people dispute him than agree with him.

C''mon neat- sample size of one! You don''t want real evidence, do you? You know, I once knew of this guy who cured himself of cancer by jumping off a cliff! I don''t really think we should bother with that crazy surgery or chemotherapy anymore.

Really, I have nothing more to add to this than what has already been eloquently said by neat, Ltl, MTG, and NovermberBride. When you do not vaccinate, you are putting more than yourself at risk. Period. We are absolutely going to see a resurgence of deadly infectious diseases and that thought is frightening to me.

And umm, wow- polio is DEVASTATING. Again, sample size of one person who did well does not negate this fact

This is not a very PC thing to say, but most folks simply do not have the knowledge to read legitimate scholarly articles and make decisions based upon them. Physicians train for many years to gain the ability to do so. I am all for people educating themselves and researching before making decisions. But, doing so requires a huge amount of fortitude in being sure not to be swayed by pop culture opinions with no basis in science. Therefore, I really think this is best done in conjunction with a medical professional.

This is true, but are there not physicians who read those same legitimate scholarly articles and make decisions upon them that are different than yours?

 

[neatfreak]

Date: 11/1/2009 7:33:32 PM
Author: LtlFirecracker
Neatfreak -


Just wanted to let you know I have used some of your quotes from past discussions when talking to people and they have been very effective

Thanks MTG. I do heath research by profession so you could say that I am pretty passionate and well informed about the topic. Honestly that is what gets my goat more than anything else is when people read something in print somewhere and believe it without making sure it''s legitimate first. All these "scientific" articles and vague statements with no backup studies that the anti-vaccine movement uses to spread their propaganda frustrates me beyond belief.

I absolutely think that people need to do their own research when it comes to their health but I think it''s IMPERATIVE that people get the CORRECT information, from legitimate sources, when making such life threatening decisions. Because their decision doesn''t just impact their child, it impacts society.

 

[neatfreak]

Date: 11/1/2009 7:41:29 PM
Author: hlmr

Date: 11/1/2009 7:32:47 PM

Author: icekid

Date: 11/1/2009 6:55:25 PM

Author: neatfreak

Date: 11/1/2009 6:18:09 PM


Author: Ellen



The only thing I''ll add is that I had both the mumps and measles as a child, and the chicken pox at 30. I''m still here, as are many others. I will let this thread go now, it was never my intent to debate the issue, that could go on ad infinitum. I just wanted people to know both sides, they can take from it what they want.

Just because YOU are still here and YOU had no side effects doesn''t mean others were so lucky.



ETA: I should also add that yes I did read/watch what you presented. My question is did YOU do any background research to see where this info was really coming from? Just because a crackpot person wrote a book on the topic does not make him an expert. And MANY MANY more reputable people dispute him than agree with him.

C''mon neat- sample size of one! You don''t want real evidence, do you? You know, I once knew of this guy who cured himself of cancer by jumping off a cliff! I don''t really think we should bother with that crazy surgery or chemotherapy anymore.

Really, I have nothing more to add to this than what has already been eloquently said by neat, Ltl, MTG, and NovermberBride. When you do not vaccinate, you are putting more than yourself at risk. Period. We are absolutely going to see a resurgence of deadly infectious diseases and that thought is frightening to me.


And umm, wow- polio is DEVASTATING. Again, sample size of one person who did well does not negate this fact

This is not a very PC thing to say, but most folks simply do not have the knowledge to read legitimate scholarly articles and make decisions based upon them. Physicians train for many years to gain the ability to do so. I am all for people educating themselves and researching before making decisions. But, doing so requires a huge amount of fortitude in being sure not to be swayed by pop culture opinions with no basis in science. Therefore, I really think this is best done in conjunction with a medical professional.

This is true, but are there not physicians who read those same legitimate scholarly articles and make decisions upon them that are different than yours?

Of course. But the evidence FOR vaccines is so overwhelming in the academic journals that one would be hard pressed to be anti-vaccine after reading the information without personal bias.

 

[icekid]

Date: 11/1/2009 7:44:50 PM
Author: neatfreak

Date: 11/1/2009 7:41:29 PM

Author: hlmr

Date: 11/1/2009 7:32:47 PM


Author: icekid

Date: 11/1/2009 6:55:25 PM


Author: neatfreak

Date: 11/1/2009 6:18:09 PM



Author: Ellen




The only thing I''ll add is that I had both the mumps and measles as a child, and the chicken pox at 30. I''m still here, as are many others. I will let this thread go now, it was never my intent to debate the issue, that could go on ad infinitum. I just wanted people to know both sides, they can take from it what they want.

Just because YOU are still here and YOU had no side effects doesn''t mean others were so lucky.




ETA: I should also add that yes I did read/watch what you presented. My question is did YOU do any background research to see where this info was really coming from? Just because a crackpot person wrote a book on the topic does not make him an expert. And MANY MANY more reputable people dispute him than agree with him.

C''mon neat- sample size of one! You don''t want real evidence, do you? You know, I once knew of this guy who cured himself of cancer by jumping off a cliff! I don''t really think we should bother with that crazy surgery or chemotherapy anymore.

Really, I have nothing more to add to this than what has already been eloquently said by neat, Ltl, MTG, and NovermberBride. When you do not vaccinate, you are putting more than yourself at risk. Period. We are absolutely going to see a resurgence of deadly infectious diseases and that thought is frightening to me.



And umm, wow- polio is DEVASTATING. Again, sample size of one person who did well does not negate this fact

This is not a very PC thing to say, but most folks simply do not have the knowledge to read legitimate scholarly articles and make decisions based upon them. Physicians train for many years to gain the ability to do so. I am all for people educating themselves and researching before making decisions. But, doing so requires a huge amount of fortitude in being sure not to be swayed by pop culture opinions with no basis in science. Therefore, I really think this is best done in conjunction with a medical professional.

This is true, but are there not physicians who read those same legitimate scholarly articles and make decisions upon them that are different than yours?

Of course. But the evidence FOR vaccines is so overwhelming in the academic journals that one would be hard pressed to be anti-vaccine after reading the information without personal bias.

Ditto! This is NOT a controversy within medicine. I do not personally know any physicians who do not vaccinate their children.

 

[hlmr]

Date: 11/1/2009 7:44:50 PM
Author: neatfreak

Date: 11/1/2009 7:41:29 PM
Author: hlmr

Date: 11/1/2009 7:32:47 PM

Author: icekid

Date: 11/1/2009 6:55:25 PM

Author: neatfreak

Date: 11/1/2009 6:18:09 PM


Author: Ellen



The only thing I''ll add is that I had both the mumps and measles as a child, and the chicken pox at 30. I''m still here, as are many others. I will let this thread go now, it was never my intent to debate the issue, that could go on ad infinitum. I just wanted people to know both sides, they can take from it what they want.

Just because YOU are still here and YOU had no side effects doesn''t mean others were so lucky.



ETA: I should also add that yes I did read/watch what you presented. My question is did YOU do any background research to see where this info was really coming from? Just because a crackpot person wrote a book on the topic does not make him an expert. And MANY MANY more reputable people dispute him than agree with him.

C''mon neat- sample size of one! You don''t want real evidence, do you? You know, I once knew of this guy who cured himself of cancer by jumping off a cliff! I don''t really think we should bother with that crazy surgery or chemotherapy anymore.

Really, I have nothing more to add to this than what has already been eloquently said by neat, Ltl, MTG, and NovermberBride. When you do not vaccinate, you are putting more than yourself at risk. Period. We are absolutely going to see a resurgence of deadly infectious diseases and that thought is frightening to me.


And umm, wow- polio is DEVASTATING. Again, sample size of one person who did well does not negate this fact

This is not a very PC thing to say, but most folks simply do not have the knowledge to read legitimate scholarly articles and make decisions based upon them. Physicians train for many years to gain the ability to do so. I am all for people educating themselves and researching before making decisions. But, doing so requires a huge amount of fortitude in being sure not to be swayed by pop culture opinions with no basis in science. Therefore, I really think this is best done in conjunction with a medical professional.

This is true, but are there not physicians who read those same legitimate scholarly articles and make decisions upon them that are different than yours?

Of course. But the evidence FOR vaccines is so overwhelming in the academic journals that one would be hard pressed to be anti-vaccine after reading the information without personal bias.

The same could be said for labotomies in the 40''s and 50''s.

 

[Logan Sapphire]

Date: 11/1/2009 7:47:14 PM
Author: icekid

Ditto! This is NOT a controversy within medicine. I do not personally know any physicians who do not vaccinate their children.

I do, depending on what vaccine you're talking about. My good friend (pediatrician) does do the regular flu shot for her two kids, but is not doing the H1N1. I don't know if she herself is getting or not, or if she's just not getting it for her kida. What she's done for other vaccines, I'm not sure. FWIW, I'm not anti-vax at all myself.

 

[hlmr]

Date: 11/1/2009 7:47:14 PM
Author: icekid

Date: 11/1/2009 7:44:50 PM
Author: neatfreak

Date: 11/1/2009 7:41:29 PM

Author: hlmr

Date: 11/1/2009 7:32:47 PM


Author: icekid

Date: 11/1/2009 6:55:25 PM


Author: neatfreak

Date: 11/1/2009 6:18:09 PM



Author: Ellen




The only thing I'll add is that I had both the mumps and measles as a child, and the chicken pox at 30. I'm still here, as are many others. I will let this thread go now, it was never my intent to debate the issue, that could go on ad infinitum. I just wanted people to know both sides, they can take from it what they want.

Just because YOU are still here and YOU had no side effects doesn't mean others were so lucky.




ETA: I should also add that yes I did read/watch what you presented. My question is did YOU do any background research to see where this info was really coming from? Just because a crackpot person wrote a book on the topic does not make him an expert. And MANY MANY more reputable people dispute him than agree with him.

C'mon neat- sample size of one! You don't want real evidence, do you? You know, I once knew of this guy who cured himself of cancer by jumping off a cliff! I don't really think we should bother with that crazy surgery or chemotherapy anymore.

Really, I have nothing more to add to this than what has already been eloquently said by neat, Ltl, MTG, and NovermberBride. When you do not vaccinate, you are putting more than yourself at risk. Period. We are absolutely going to see a resurgence of deadly infectious diseases and that thought is frightening to me.



And umm, wow- polio is DEVASTATING. Again, sample size of one person who did well does not negate this fact

This is not a very PC thing to say, but most folks simply do not have the knowledge to read legitimate scholarly articles and make decisions based upon them. Physicians train for many years to gain the ability to do so. I am all for people educating themselves and researching before making decisions. But, doing so requires a huge amount of fortitude in being sure not to be swayed by pop culture opinions with no basis in science. Therefore, I really think this is best done in conjunction with a medical professional.

This is true, but are there not physicians who read those same legitimate scholarly articles and make decisions upon them that are different than yours?

Of course. But the evidence FOR vaccines is so overwhelming in the academic journals that one would be hard pressed to be anti-vaccine after reading the information without personal bias.

Ditto! This is NOT a controversy within medicine. I do not personally know any physicians who do not vaccinate their children.

Really? I do. Perhaps they are not sharing that information with all of their colleagues.

 

[hlmr]

Date: 11/1/2009 7:52:30 PM
Author: Logan Sapphire

Date: 11/1/2009 7:47:14 PM
Author: icekid

Ditto! This is NOT a controversy within medicine. I do not personally know any physicians who do not vaccinate their children.

I do, depending on what vaccine you're talking about. My good friend (pediatrician) does do the regular flu shot for her two kids, but is not doing the H1N1. I don't know if she herself is getting or not, or if she's just not getting it for her kida. What she's done for other vaccines, I'm not sure. FWIW, I'm not anti-vax at all myself.

Nor I am (except flu). But I do believe it is very okay to debate this topic, even without a MD.

 

[icekid]

Date: 11/1/2009 7:53:09 PM
Author: hlmr

Date: 11/1/2009 7:47:14 PM

Author: icekid


Ditto! This is NOT a controversy within medicine. I do not personally know any physicians who do not vaccinate their children.

Really? I do. Perhaps they are not sharing that information with all of their colleagues.

shrug... I am sure they exist. But not among my circle.

LS- Not sure why someone would be okay with the seasonal flu vaccine and not H1N1, but that is a bit of a different situation anyway.

 

[icekid]

Date: 11/1/2009 7:56:15 PM
Author: hlmr

Date: 11/1/2009 7:52:30 PM

Author: Logan Sapphire

Date: 11/1/2009 7:47:14 PM

Author: icekid


Ditto! This is NOT a controversy within medicine. I do not personally know any physicians who do not vaccinate their children.

I do, depending on what vaccine you''re talking about. My good friend (pediatrician) does do the regular flu shot for her two kids, but is not doing the H1N1. I don''t know if she herself is getting or not, or if she''s just not getting it for her kida. What she''s done for other vaccines, I''m not sure. FWIW, I''m not anti-vax at all myself.

Nor I am (except flu). But I do believe it is very okay to debate this topic, even without a MD.

Certainly folks without a medical degree are welcome to debate the validity of vaccination! I''d love to see more scientific support against it.

Lobotomies? There was not much evidence-based medicine in the 1930s unfortunately

We''ve come a long way!

 

[radiantquest]

When I was a baby my mother chose to not have me immunized for Polio because of the horror stories and she chose to not have me immunized for whooping cough (pertussus) because when she got hers she said that she was partially paralyzed for a little while. Having said that she got me the rest because it was required to go to school.

As an adult I have never gotten the flu vaccine. I have never gotten the flu either. I will not get it this year or the H1N1. I have not been sick in about 4 years. Not even a cold. I work with the public so it is not as if I am not exposed, I just don''t get it. I attribute this to getting plenty of sleep regularly and I take vitamins.

No matter where you stand on the issue it will not change what others do. I don''t eat right and I smoke yet people that are constantly telling me that smoking is bad and what I eat is bad are the ones who are sick every 3 months.

I am not saying that everyone should smoke and eat Big Macs and they will never get sick as long as you get enough sleep and take vitamins. What I am saying is that if you get the flu shot every year and it works for you and that is what you are comfortable with then keep getting them. If you are like me then do what you do. Whatever works.

There will always be controversy about this and that. One day milk is good for us, the next thing you know there is a study that says it is not.