Those of you with Student Loans

[suchende]

I can understand your position, but the thing is, I think people really do work incredibly hard and still end up below median. The grading is just more arbitrary than you might think (like my contracts class, where the curve was razor sharp and the difference btw a median grade in the class and top 10% was 10/200 points). Now, I've not done poorly, and BF has cleaned up, but we could both talk your ear off with stories of friends who did "everything right" and didn't see it reflected in their grades. And for that matter, BF is a terrible student. He only goes to class half the time, doesn't start reading until a few weeks before finals, cobbles together a half-hearted outline and is top single-digits-%, so when you say, oh, his classmates who are bottom half should have worked as hard as he did... well they'd probably lynch you, haha. I am not saying it's luck, because it isn't, but it also isn't hard work. IMO it's a tricky combination of hard work & an intuition for how law school exams are written & game-day performance (which is a little bit luck, to be fair).

The whole school has been abuzz about that article. I agree with you that grown adults should be held accountable, but some of the blame lies with schools who publish deceptive salary info, and a good chunk with the government, who just keeps feeding the beast by not setting appropriate limits on how much you can take out, expected income, etc. When such terrible decisions are being made, there's blame to go around. I know a girl with $100k debt from her undergrad. Was she a moron? Yes. Should the gov't have spent our money on her 7 years of college? Um, no!

IMO,if heavy student loan debt is a problem, it's one we're still perpetuating by lending out stupid amounts of money for liberal arts degrees. Like I said above, you could argue that it's appropriate for the government to support higher ed, so if people default, it's a good use of gov't money anyway, but if that's the end goal, this seems like the dumbest of all ways to go about it.

 

[y2kitty]

If people were smart they would have bought a house in like '03 or '04, refinanced and paid off their student loans with that money, then let the house go into foreclosure! Seriously though, I haven't bought a home or had student loans but I think its a tad unfair that people are walking away from their homes left and right but people can't walk away from their student loans.

 

[Octavia]

If people were smart they would have bought a house in like '03 or '04, refinanced and paid off their student loans with that money, then let the house go into foreclosure! Seriously though, I haven't bought a home or had student loans but I think its a tad unfair that people are walking away from their homes left and right but people can't walk away from their student loans.

I kind of see your point, in the sense that many people have student loans that are as much as a mortgage. Purely in terms of the amount of debt, it doesn't seem fair. However, a mortgage is a secured debt, so if you default, you lose the house. Student loans are probably the ultimate in unsecured debt -- if you don't pay, they can't take back your education and sell it to someone else. I agree with loan forgiveness because the programs are designed mainly for people who are performing services to society that are more valuable than their paychecks would reflect. But I tend to think that people should generally be held to their education debts -- there just needs to be A LOT more counseling before people are allowed to sign on those dotted lines. The entrance/exit interviews required for federal loans are absolutely useless as they are now.

 

[rubybeth]

I considered loan forgiveness but didn't bank on it; I got my library science degree with the goal of working in public libraries, but wound up getting a better position than I'd planned for and now don't quality for IBR because I make too much money. Also, I used a repayment calculator to determine that the loan forgiveness would not actually save me any money vs. paying off the loans as aggressively as possible.

I agree with the posts that have highlighted the problem of expensive degrees with no chance of good paying jobs at the end. My field is one of the worst. I saw a lot of $15/hour part-time librarian jobs when I was job hunting, and I already made that working as a paraprofessional.

 

[swimmer]

Not sure how I feel about the government covering loan forgiveness. DH believes you should never take out more in loans than you'll make your first year working after graduation and I tend to agree with him. He currently has 6 figures in debt from law school but he'll have no trouble paying it back in a few years from his corporate position. If he had chosen to go into public service then the law school themselves would provide loan forgiveness as one of the perks of choosing to attend there. I'll only owe about $30k from my masters degree and while I will probably qualify for some forgiveness b/c I'll most likely teach in a low income area we plan on paying off my debt my first year out so I doubt we will carry any long enough to make it worthwhile. Plus I like not being tied to a school just so I can have my education paid for.

It's not that I can't pay them back, it's a benefit that the government will give me for being in a not so great district with not so great pay. It's to get teachers to stay in a crappy district instead of only going to the higher SES, more affluent areas. The same with nurses and federal employees.

It's a tough situation for so many recent and soon-to-be grads. My own field (education) is super-saturated with recent graduates who go through what we call diploma mills and earn degrees and certificates that aren't really worth much in practice. Schools know which programs churn out unprepared graduates, and they don't make desirable candidates on a job market that is pretty desperate right now. To top it off, these grad programs cost around 30K, so people are choosing to attend sub-par programs, and to take on a lot of debt, when the job market is BLEAK. I don't think that is a wise choice, and it shouldn't be supported, in my opinion.

Katamari recently posted (in another thread) that she believes people shouldn't go to graduate school in the social sciences area unless they are fully funded. I could not agree more. That's not to say that I don't believe in loan forgiveness for people who spend ten years bringing a much needed service to a high-need area. That's a wonderful thing. I just think it's a bad idea to go into serious debt in the hopes of entering a field with dismal job prospects.

Hear Hear! It is one thing to go into a program that publishes great hiring data and one thing to throw good money after bad in a low ranked program. I recently shuffled through a ton of teacher applications (we aren't hiring anyone new this year so they were all unsolicited) with degrees from online universities. None of these people are going to be hired in our area that is super saturated with accredited universities...I don't think they know this! An online degree might work in some fields, but how does one student teach online? Virtual kids? I am hoping these applicants are married well or have some lotto winnings soon. I think the online universities are going to be like check cashing places, the last resort for poor people with limited access.

 

[iugurl]

Disclaimer: I know nothing about current stipulations for loan forgiveness. This response is to the imaginary loan forgiveness that many, many would qualify for, it it were implemented.

I do not agree with loan forgiveness. I know so many people who were responsible and went to a cheaper college vs. their "dream" college. They knew that even though they would LOVE to go to Notre Dame or somewhere similar ($50,000ish) but chose to go to Ball State or IU or somewhere similar ($15,000-20,000ish), it simply did not make sense based on their future income. It is tough today, because so many new graduates are having a difficult time finding jobs. I do not think that their debt should be wiped out though. The economy will get better. I don't know how student loans work, but in this bad economic time, I would not object to delaying the payments or lowering the payments until things pick up.

I feel as though it is similar to those who got in over their heads with expensive homes. Do you think the government should pay off such debt? In my area, decent homes are $100,000-180,000, right around there with some of the large student loans that exist.

I do not believe that a 17 or 18 year old is too "young" or "immature" to realize what $50,000 is in the real world. You think that as much as teens surf the internet, they could look up what their career makes a year compared to the cost of education? Even before the internet, it was not very difficult to estimate what a certain field would make. I know this seems harsh, but it is reality! It is hard to imagine someone who is intelligent enough to get into such wonderful schools would not consider the costs!

It may seem like a positive thing to those who have a lot of debt. However, to some who sacrificed a lot by going to an affordable school, it is frustrating. It seems totally unfair to those who did not go to their dream school, but COULD have, had they predicted the loan forgiveness.

I hope no one is offended.

 

[iugurl]

Seriously though, I haven't bought a home or had student loans but I think its a tad unfair that people are walking away from their homes left and right but people can't walk away from their student loans.

I don't really think this is comparing apples to apples. When you walk away from their homes, they LOSE THEIR HOMES (and screw up your credit). If you could walk away from student loans, you would not be walking away from your education. I think apples to apples would be walk away from mortgage and lose house vs. walk away from student loans and lose your degree.

 

[monarch64]

What have I done wrong? My grandfather set aside $100k in 1977 for my college education, and my brother's. My brother chose not to use any of the money. I chose to go to a state school, graduated within 4.5 years (the first of my family to actually gain a degree), whereas my brother did not. So let's say my parents used $50k of that "inheritance" towards my education.

I've worked in my field, used my degree, and been unemployed several times.

I'm now almost 34, once married, once divorced, now engaged to be married again. My fiance has a BS from a school in Connecticut, did graduate work at Harvard, yet lives here in my small town and makes little more than me. I have no health insurance at my (now) part time job. He has better benefits but it's too expensive to include me in his current plan.

Apparently I should have gone to a better school, gotten a better degree, and become a doctor/lawyer/something I wouldn't have had a passion for just to earn more money in the long run.

I'm not anything less than intelligent--in fact, I have a very high IQ. FI is absolutely brilliant, much more intelligent than me...and still we are stuck sort of in the lower middle class due to income/jobs. What gives???

 

[ksinger]

Disclaimer: I know nothing about current stipulations for loan forgiveness. This response is to the imaginary loan forgiveness that many, many would qualify for, it it were implemented.

I do not agree with loan forgiveness. I know so many people who were responsible and went to a cheaper college vs. their "dream" college. They knew that even though they would LOVE to go to Notre Dame or somewhere similar ($50,000ish) but chose to go to Ball State or IU or somewhere similar ($15,000-20,000ish), it simply did not make sense based on their future income. It is tough today, because so many new graduates are having a difficult time finding jobs. I do not think that their debt should be wiped out though. The economy will get better. I don't know how student loans work, but in this bad economic time, I would not object to delaying the payments or lowering the payments until things pick up.

I feel as though it is similar to those who got in over their heads with expensive homes. Do you think the government should pay off such debt? In my area, decent homes are $100,000-180,000, right around there with some of the large student loans that exist.

I do not believe that a 17 or 18 year old is too "young" or "immature" to realize what $50,000 is in the real world. You think that as much as teens surf the internet, they could look up what their career makes a year compared to the cost of education? Even before the internet, it was not very difficult to estimate what a certain field would make. I know this seems harsh, but it is reality! It is hard to imagine someone who is intelligent enough to get into such wonderful schools would not consider the costs!

It may seem like a positive thing to those who have a lot of debt. However, to some who sacrificed a lot by going to an affordable school, it is frustrating. It seems totally unfair to those who did not go to their dream school, but COULD have, had they predicted the loan forgiveness.

I hope no one is offended.

You'll have to forgive me for a bit of a tangent, but what exactly, is going to make the "economy get better"? I love how people take that almost as an article of faith, but have NO idea how that is going to happen or what is going to drive it. Heck, according to the official numbers, the economy IS getting better. Unfortunately the word "better" is usually in the same paragraph as "jobless recovery". I'm afraid that better is going to be relative going forward, and will include a level of structural unemployment that even us older people have never seen. And as long as the government is going to bail out the insanely rich who hide under cover of a corporation, why NOT give the little guy a break? Why is is OK for a corporation - supposedly led by the "smartest" guys on the planet, to judge by their insane salaries and their own chest-beating - to be able to get out from under its debt and no one blinks an eye or gets all morally indignant, but have the little guy get in over HIS head, and HE has a "moral" obligation. Sauce for the goose.

Next semi-random musing (hey, it's late) - as for a teen's maturity level concerning money, well where the heck are the parents? Are these massive loans being made to those teens without any input from mom and dad? Parents are even more culpable to my way of thinking, since most teens can't even GET to that fab college halfway across the country, without support - both financial and otherwise, of the parents. I can only imagine that parents would be a bit less willing to encourage their kids to take out massive debt if they HAD to cosign for that debt.

Final semi-random musing. This thread got me curious, So I checked. My degree, from (one of those supposedly crappy) state universities, started out at $17.55 an hour, and as I recall, that included fees. I checked the prices the other day and nearly had a coronary. The price per hour at that same state university, was about $140 an hour and with fees (my god the FEES!) came out to about $235 an hour. Somehow I don't think a recent graduate with my same degree has an earning potential that has also increased almost 13.5 times. If we're truly commited to higher education for the masses (and I suspect we are NOT) then we need to start slapping some of these out of control state colleges back into reality and back into providing something that can be reasonably afforded by more people. God, but I'm so glad I'm not in my 20's anymore...I've got my own issues as a 48 year old, but I do not envy any graduate coming out in this market.

 

[swingirl]

If people were smart they would have bought a house in like '03 or '04, refinanced and paid off their student loans with that money, then let the house go into foreclosure! Seriously though, I haven't bought a home or had student loans but I think its a tad unfair that people are walking away from their homes left and right but people can't walk away from their student loans.

When a person walks away from a mortgage they walk away with nothing but bad credit.
When a person walks away from a student loan, they already got their education.

 

[monarch64]

If people were smart they would have bought a house in like '03 or '04, refinanced and paid off their student loans with that money, then let the house go into foreclosure! Seriously though, I haven't bought a home or had student loans but I think its a tad unfair that people are walking away from their homes left and right but people can't walk away from their student loans.

When a person walks away from a mortgage they walk away with nothing but bad credit.
When a person walks away from a student loan, they already got their education.

Not anymore, Swingirl...

A degreed person nowadays may have their education but they have zero guarantee of a job.

 

[swingirl]

If people were smart they would have bought a house in like '03 or '04, refinanced and paid off their student loans with that money, then let the house go into foreclosure! Seriously though, I haven't bought a home or had student loans but I think its a tad unfair that people are walking away from their homes left and right but people can't walk away from their student loans.

When a person walks away from a mortgage they walk away with nothing but bad credit.
When a person walks away from a student loan, they already got their education.

Not anymore, Swingirl...

A degreed person nowadays may have their education but they have zero guarantee of a job.

But they still have their education. There are never guaranteed jobs for any of us. But the student chose their field of study and had several years to reevaluate it. They still walk away ahead, being educated, and are that much closer to pursuing a second career.

Maybe today's college student feels entitled to a job after their 4 year stint but didn't plan well for life after graduation. I am mostly referring to the OP's friend who has a $140k debt. That is just plain bad planning, not a case of having to take a low paying job until the economy picks up or working in a low-paying field. That was many poor decisions--like attending a school the family couldn't afford, living on campus, not taking CC classes during high school to get credits out of the way, going to a CC for a year or 2 (very cheap), or doing well enough to get scholarships. Yes, college is expensive but planning can reduce the price tag. So when my family has planned better and taken a less expensive route, I resent being stuck with the bill for others who want $140k forgiven because they now realize they can't comfortably pay it back.

 

[iugurl]

You'll have to forgive me for a bit of a tangent, but what exactly, is going to make the "economy get better"?

Final semi-random musing. This thread got me curious, So I checked. My degree, from (one of those supposedly crappy) state .

I don't know how or when. Do you think unemployment and the economy will be this "bad" forever? Or for 20 or 50 or 80 years? I don't. Gosh I hope not.

And I hope you weren't saying the crappy state schools in reference to me.

Edited for spelling error

 

[monarch64]

If people were smart they would have bought a house in like '03 or '04, refinanced and paid off their student loans with that money, then let the house go into foreclosure! Seriously though, I haven't bought a home or had student loans but I think its a tad unfair that people are walking away from their homes left and right but people can't walk away from their student loans.

When a person walks away from a mortgage they walk away with nothing but bad credit.
When a person walks away from a student loan, they already got their education.

Not anymore, Swingirl...

A degreed person nowadays may have their education but they have zero guarantee of a job.

But they still have their education. There are never guaranteed jobs for any of us. But the student chose their field of study and had several years to reevaluate it. They still walk away ahead, being educated, and are that much closer to pursuing a second career.

Maybe today's college student feels entitled to a job after their 4 year stint but didn't plan well for life after graduation. I am mostly referring to the OP's friend who has a $140k debt. That is just plain bad planning, not a case of having to take a low paying job until the economy picks up or working in a low-paying field. That was many poor decisions--like attending a school the family couldn't afford, living on campus, not taking CC classes during high school to get credits out of the way, going to a CC for a year or 2 (very cheap), or doing well enough to get scholarships. Yes, college is expensive but planning can reduce the price tag. So when my family has planned better and taken a less expensive route, I resent being stuck with the bill for others who want $140k forgiven because they now realize they can't comfortably pay it back.

I am absolutely in agreeance with you. I think that my parents held the same sentiment and that is why they never wanted to see me in debt. I wasn't, as far as student loans, but the degree I chose didn't make for a money-making career, as it turned out! So, I hold some sympathy for those college grads who took out loans and ended up taking jobs that didn't exactly pay so well. That is all...not wishing to argue here. I do appreciate your insight, though, and will listen/read til the cows come home!

 

[JulieN]

http://money.cnn.com/2011/01/31/news/economy/low_wage_job_growth/index.htm

Bernhardt's analysis of the first seven months of 2010 found that 76% of jobs created were in low- to mid-wage industries -- those earning between $8.92 to $15 an hour, well below the national average hourly wage of $22.60.

High-wage sectors -- made up of jobs that pay between $17.43 and $31 an hour -- accounted for nearly half the jobs lost during the recession, but have produced only 5% of the new jobs since hiring resumed, Bernhardt's study showed.

 

[monarch64]

http://money.cnn.com/2011/01/31/news/economy/low_wage_job_growth/index.htm

Bernhardt's analysis of the first seven months of 2010 found that 76% of jobs created were in low- to mid-wage industries -- those earning between $8.92 to $15 an hour, well below the national average hourly wage of $22.60.

High-wage sectors -- made up of jobs that pay between $17.43 and $31 an hour -- accounted for nearly half the jobs lost during the recession, but have produced only 5% of the new jobs since hiring resumed, Bernhardt's study showed.

I just literally choked on those figures. Wow. Something isn't right these days when I'm earning $7.75/hr. I mean, I knew I was taking a MAJOR pay cut...but really?? I love my job but apparently I haven't been keeping up with the times.

 

[y2kitty]

In the cases of both education and housing the government and society in general promoted falsehoods that made taking on extreme amounts of debt both acceptable and encouraged. Housing prices will always go up. If you get a good education you will always have a job. Here, have more debt. The way I see it, it is apples to apples but I know many of you will not agree. For the record, I have never bought a house or borrowed money to finance education. People are walking away from houses at historic high rates. Yes the bank still has the house but it was over valued to start with. Some banks are eating losses like 100k-200k on just one home. That's like some people's student loans. People who got in over their head with houses and education are both irresponsible, but it doesn't seem right to me that one has an out and the other does not.

 

[megumic]

I'm kind of frustrated with this thread. If students never took out exorbitant student loans, we'd never any professionals in the world who require a graduate degree. I get the point that a PP made about planning ahead to reduce high student loans, but that's nearly impossible with graduate school, unless you get a scholarship. It used to be that you could file for bankruptcy on your student loans. That is no longer, but why?

Maybe I'm a little defensive because I'm a student who will have 6 figures of debt when I graduate from law school in a few months. I think student loan forgiveness for those who work in public interest or government positions deserve to have their loans forgiven. They are accepting to work in a lower-paying industry than they could (i.e. accepting a $60k salary that won't budge, versus going to a firm for a fancy first-year salary starting at $100k that will quickly and continuously spike....). Typically those that work in govt or public interest work do so because they are passionate about the work, and accordingly they need the financial "bone" of loan forgiveness.

Although the stats below do not include graduate degrees, it shows how much students take in loans on average just for undergraduate. If more than half of all students need loans ranging from $23k to $27k, on average, it's clear something is broken. Or, perhaps student debt is just part of the American college graduate lifestyle...

Two-thirds (65.6%) of 4-year undergraduate students graduated with a Bachelor's degree and some debt in 2007-08, and the average student loan debt among graduating seniors was $23,186 (excluding PLUS Loans but including Stafford, Perkins, state, college and private loans).
...
When one includes PLUS loans in the total, 66.0% of 4-year undergraduate students graduated with some debt in 2007-08, and the average cumulative debt incurred was $27,803.

Source: http://www.finaid.org/loans/

 

[ksinger]

You'll have to forgive me for a bit of a tangent, but what exactly, is going to make the "economy get better"?

Final semi-random musing. This thread got me curious, So I checked. My degree, from (one of those supposedly crappy) state .

I don't know how or when. Do you think unemployment and the economy will be this "bad" forever? Or for 20 or 50 or 80 years? I don't. Gosh I hope not.

And I hope you weren't saying the crappy state schools in reference to me.
Edited for spelling error

No, and not sure how you could even think so really. Did you say somewhere in here that you went to a state college? If so I missed it. No, I was merely referring to the general perception that state colleges are not as good as privates or ivies, a sentiment that is not unique to this board. Perhaps this is true to some extent, and yet the gap seems to be closing in light of the fact that private/Ivy or not, the jobs just are.not.there.period. If we're all going to have to make do going forward with reduced wages - and that seems to be looking like the "new normal", then the return on the difference in cost between the two looks like it might not be worth that extra cost/debt anymore.

As for the economy, why NOT a long time? The Great Depression lasted for about 10 years and Japan had its "lost decade" in the 90's, what makes our current situation significantly different? We're even responding the same way.

I do think it is going to be this bad for a long enough time for it to change what is considered normal in the way of full employment, and in our expectation of wages, and to sear its way into the national psyche just as The Depression did. Even if it doesn't technically last forever, how long can we as individuals and as society, continue to pump out college grads with huge debts and no real prospects? The fact that it ain't actually forever is going to be moot at some point. And relying on entrepreneurship from young people already saddled with massive debt starting out, probably isn't going to be the savior of America either.

Each time we've done one of these boom bust cycles in the last decade or so, we have seen job creation lag far behind what the government and pundits have hailed as recovery. The last bust, in 2000, had a 36 month lag, and this one is predicted to be far longer. And unless the recovery is fueled by something other than what fueled the last one - ie, churning cheap money, a housing bubble, and the financialization of businesses that should have been making things and investing in their own infrastructure (see automaker bailouts as a perfect example) we're likely going to see the woes repeat and deepen.

 

[iugurl]

If students never took out exorbitant student loans, we'd never any professionals in the world who require a graduate degree.

I think student loan forgiveness for those who work in public interest or government positions deserve to have their loans forgiven. They are accepting to work in a lower-paying industry than they could (i.e. accepting a $60k salary that won't budge, versus going to a firm for a fancy first-year salary starting at $100k that will quickly and continuously spike....). Typically those that work in govt or public interest work do so because they are passionate about the work, and accordingly they need the financial "bone" of loan forgiveness.

I am not sure about the first sentence. I, nor anyone else that I saw, said that people should not take out loans.However, I do not believe that 100% of those who continue on to graduate school have "exorbitant" student loans. Many that I personally know, paid little to nothing for their first years of school (scholarships) and some continued their schooling at a less expensive university to avoid extreme debt.

I don't think it is always unwise to take out expensive student loans. I think it is silly when people who are going into low paying fields do, as they will struggle for payments. Did the Ivy League (or similar in $) college make a difference in your career vs the good state school or even community college? When future doctors rack up a lot of debt, it is very, very likely that they will have a high enough paying job that you can pay off student loans. That makes sense to me. Someone who wants to be a teacher (NO OFFENSE I PROMISE, just it is not known for being a career that makes the big bucks) racks up $100,000+ in student loans, that does not make sense to me. It is their choice, I am not saying it should not be allowed. When that person struggles to make the payments, are they surprised? It just makes me mad when some people do not consider education cost vs. potential salary, and then expect to have their debts "forgiven."

I was not disputing the loan forgiveness for those who work in govt or public interest fields. I am unsure of how I feel about this as I know nothing about it. My argument was to the "dream" of many graduates to have the debt forgiven in many different fields and NOT necessarily in govt or public interest fields.

I would be interested in how exactly this works. Is all of the loan forgiven? Who decides if it can be forgiven? How is this paid for? etc.

 

[purselover]

What have I done wrong? My grandfather set aside $100k in 1977 for my college education, and my brother's. My brother chose not to use any of the money. I chose to go to a state school, graduated within 4.5 years (the first of my family to actually gain a degree), whereas my brother did not. So let's say my parents used $50k of that "inheritance" towards my education.

I've worked in my field, used my degree, and been unemployed several times.

I'm now almost 34, once married, once divorced, now engaged to be married again. My fiance has a BS from a school in Connecticut, did graduate work at Harvard, yet lives here in my small town and makes little more than me. I have no health insurance at my (now) part time job. He has better benefits but it's too expensive to include me in his current plan.

Apparently I should have gone to a better school, gotten a better degree, and become a doctor/lawyer/something I wouldn't have had a passion for just to earn more money in the long run.

I'm not anything less than intelligent--in fact, I have a very high IQ. FI is absolutely brilliant, much more intelligent than me...and still we are stuck sort of in the lower middle class due to income/jobs. What gives???

Aww Monarch, I had the exact same feelings as you when I got laid off last year. (And I believe we have the same degree, fashion merchandising) My institution (Which is a famous non-profit mind you, yet still greedy to the core) sold our entire buying department out to a for profit company.

DH and I really struggled (and continue to) emotionally with what I should have done after that. He agreed with your inner monologue about how I should have picked a better school/degree and thought I should have made a change and become a corporate lawyer. I vehemently disagreed with him and disagree with you as well! I'm not cut out to be a lawyer/investment banker or anything else like that. I need to do what fufills me emotionally, even though it may not equal big money. In the end after a lot of soul-searching I realized on my own I had no desire to continue on in my degree and I just started grad school for education. While it is not the path he would have chosen for me DH realizes how wrong he was trying to turn me into someone I'm not.

Anyway - hang in there, our industry has been horribly hit the past few years, (only one of my co-workers laid off with me has a job now ) but try to stay positive. You will find a wonderful full-time job it just might take a little while. Wishing you the best with your job.

 

[ksinger]

I'm kind of frustrated with this thread. If students never took out exorbitant student loans, we'd never any professionals in the world who require a graduate degree. I get the point that a PP made about planning ahead to reduce high student loans, but that's nearly impossible with graduate school, unless you get a scholarship. It used to be that you could file for bankruptcy on your student loans. That is no longer, but why?

Maybe I'm a little defensive because I'm a student who will have 6 figures of debt when I graduate from law school in a few months. I think student loan forgiveness for those who work in public interest or government positions deserve to have their loans forgiven. They are accepting to work in a lower-paying industry than they could (i.e. accepting a $60k salary that won't budge, versus going to a firm for a fancy first-year salary starting at $100k that will quickly and continuously spike....). Typically those that work in govt or public interest work do so because they are passionate about the work, and accordingly they need the financial "bone" of loan forgiveness.

Although the stats below do not include graduate degrees, it shows how much students take in loans on average just for undergraduate. If more than half of all students need loans ranging from $23k to $27k, on average, it's clear something is broken. Or, perhaps student debt is just part of the American college graduate lifestyle...

Two-thirds (65.6%) of 4-year undergraduate students graduated with a Bachelor's degree and some debt in 2007-08, and the average student loan debt among graduating seniors was $23,186 (excluding PLUS Loans but including Stafford, Perkins, state, college and private loans).
...
When one includes PLUS loans in the total, 66.0% of 4-year undergraduate students graduated with some debt in 2007-08, and the average cumulative debt incurred was $27,803.

Source: http://www.finaid.org/loans/

Part of that "new normal" is going to be (and you see it beginning now) that those firms offering those "fancy first-year salaries starting at $100k that will quickly and continuously spike" are not doing that anymore, (or have the reports I've been reading on such things just wrong? You would know better than I...) and that what used to supposedly be idealism in taking a public sector job, has now become, damn, I have massive debts to pay right NOW, and I just need a JOB! All the thrash about doing what makes you happy and fulfilled is falling to the reality of plain old survival. I see this happening right now to some of my young friends on FB. One comes to mind: highly educated - degree in anthropology, and currently working two low-paying dead-end jobs JUST to pay the loan, barely able to live beyond that. So much for being "fulfilled".

And unless we're exclusively talking about lawyer jobs, many federal positions are now paying quite a bit more than their public sector equivalents. When the world is now swimming in applicants for all the jobs out there, even the ones that a few years ago, college grads would have turned up their noses at, why the need for loan forgiveness to attract employees? I can vouch for this mindset in the public school sector, where teachers all over the country now have their backs to the wall against a business paradigm that sees them as easily replaceable by any of the hordes of desperate new applicants for any position at all. It's pretty classic really.

I'm not arguing against loan forgiveness here, I'm merely saying the rules of the game have changed drastically, and not in the favor of the individual worker.

 

[iugurl]

No, and not sure how you could even think so really. Did you say somewhere in here that you went to a state college? If so I missed it.

I do think it is going to be this bad for a long enough time for it to change what is considered normal in the way of full employment, and in our expectation of wages, and to sear its way into the national psyche just as The Depression did. Even if it doesn't technically last forever, how long can we as individuals and as society, continue to pump out college grads with huge debts and no real prospects? The fact that it ain't actually forever is going to be moot at some point. And relying on entrepreneurship from young people already saddled with massive debt starting out, probably isn't going to be the savior of America either.

The comment was grouped in with other things that were in response to what I had written. I was just hoping you did not think I felt that way. I don't view any "class" of colleges "crappy." Not all community colleges, not all state schools, not all private schools etc. I think there are bad and good of each.

I think if the economy does not "get better" people may be discouraged from attending such pricey schools. I would think so at least. If it 10 years, the job market still stinks as it does, or worse, I could not encourage fresh out of high schoolers to go to expensive schools (unless they had great scholarships or parents could easily pay for it or a few other scenarios). This is because IMO it is financially unsound to get into tons of debt and then not have a NO chance at getting a job.. That is just me though.

 

[purselover]

I'm kind of frustrated with this thread. If students never took out exorbitant student loans, we'd never any professionals in the world who require a graduate degree. I get the point that a PP made about planning ahead to reduce high student loans, but that's nearly impossible with graduate school, unless you get a scholarship. It used to be that you could file for bankruptcy on your student loans. That is no longer, but why?

Maybe I'm a little defensive because I'm a student who will have 6 figures of debt when I graduate from law school in a few months. I think student loan forgiveness for those who work in public interest or government positions deserve to have their loans forgiven. They are accepting to work in a lower-paying industry than they could (i.e. accepting a $60k salary that won't budge, versus going to a firm for a fancy first-year salary starting at $100k that will quickly and continuously spike....). Typically those that work in govt or public interest work do so because they are passionate about the work, and accordingly they need the financial "bone" of loan forgiveness.

Although the stats below do not include graduate degrees, it shows how much students take in loans on average just for undergraduate. If more than half of all students need loans ranging from $23k to $27k, on average, it's clear something is broken. Or, perhaps student debt is just part of the American college graduate lifestyle...

Two-thirds (65.6%) of 4-year undergraduate students graduated with a Bachelor's degree and some debt in 2007-08, and the average student loan debt among graduating seniors was $23,186 (excluding PLUS Loans but including Stafford, Perkins, state, college and private loans).
...
When one includes PLUS loans in the total, 66.0% of 4-year undergraduate students graduated with some debt in 2007-08, and the average cumulative debt incurred was $27,803.

Source: http://www.finaid.org/loans/

Part of that "new normal" is going to be (and you see it beginning now) that those firms offering those "fancy first-year salaries starting at $100k that will quickly and continuously spike" are not doing that anymore, (or have the reports I've been reading on such things just wrong? You would know better than I...) and that what used to supposedly be idealism in taking a public sector job, has now become, damn, I have massive debts to pay right NOW, and I just need a JOB! All the thrash about doing what makes you happy and fulfilled is falling to the reality of plain old survival. I see this happening right now to some of my young friends on FB. One comes to mind: highly educated - degree in anthropology, and currently working two low-paying dead-end jobs JUST to pay the loan, barely able to live beyond that. So much for being "fulfilled".

And unless we're exclusively talking about lawyer jobs, many federal positions are now paying quite a bit more than their public sector equivalents. When the world is now swimming in applicants for all the jobs out there, even the ones that a few years ago, college grads would have turned up their noses at, why the need for loan forgiveness to attract employees? I can vouch for this mindset in the public school sector, where teachers all over the country now have their backs to the wall against a business paradigm that sees them as easily replaceable by any of the hordes of desperate new applicants for any position at all. It's pretty classic really.

I'm not arguing against loan forgiveness here, I'm merely saying the rules of the game have changed drastically, and not in the favor of the individual worker.

Not megumic but -the very top firms here are still offering the same high salaries and raises however bonuses have decreased - although even that might be rebounding since many of these firms are adding on a smaller second Spring bonus this year. You are extremely right about the top public lawyer jobs however, while they were always a high prestigious position there is a lot more competition from those unable to land top firms.

 

[lucyandroger]

I'm kind of frustrated with this thread. If students never took out exorbitant student loans, we'd never any professionals in the world who require a graduate degree. I get the point that a PP made about planning ahead to reduce high student loans, but that's nearly impossible with graduate school, unless you get a scholarship. It used to be that you could file for bankruptcy on your student loans. That is no longer, but why?

Maybe I'm a little defensive because I'm a student who will have 6 figures of debt when I graduate from law school in a few months. I think student loan forgiveness for those who work in public interest or government positions deserve to have their loans forgiven. They are accepting to work in a lower-paying industry than they could (i.e. accepting a $60k salary that won't budge, versus going to a firm for a fancy first-year salary starting at $100k that will quickly and continuously spike....). Typically those that work in govt or public interest work do so because they are passionate about the work, and accordingly they need the financial "bone" of loan forgiveness.

Although the stats below do not include graduate degrees, it shows how much students take in loans on average just for undergraduate. If more than half of all students need loans ranging from $23k to $27k, on average, it's clear something is broken. Or, perhaps student debt is just part of the American college graduate lifestyle...

Two-thirds (65.6%) of 4-year undergraduate students graduated with a Bachelor's degree and some debt in 2007-08, and the average student loan debt among graduating seniors was $23,186 (excluding PLUS Loans but including Stafford, Perkins, state, college and private loans).
...
When one includes PLUS loans in the total, 66.0% of 4-year undergraduate students graduated with some debt in 2007-08, and the average cumulative debt incurred was $27,803.

Source: http://www.finaid.org/loans/

Part of that "new normal" is going to be (and you see it beginning now) that those firms offering those "fancy first-year salaries starting at $100k that will quickly and continuously spike" are not doing that anymore, (or have the reports I've been reading on such things just wrong? You would know better than I...) and that what used to supposedly be idealism in taking a public sector job, has now become, damn, I have massive debts to pay right NOW, and I just need a JOB! All the thrash about doing what makes you happy and fulfilled is falling to the reality of plain old survival. I see this happening right now to some of my young friends on FB. One comes to mind: highly educated - degree in anthropology, and currently working two low-paying dead-end jobs JUST to pay the loan, barely able to live beyond that. So much for being "fulfilled".

And unless we're exclusively talking about lawyer jobs, many federal positions are now paying quite a bit more than their public sector equivalents. When the world is now swimming in applicants for all the jobs out there, even the ones that a few years ago, college grads would have turned up their noses at, why the need for loan forgiveness to attract employees? I can vouch for this mindset in the public school sector, where teachers all over the country now have their backs to the wall against a business paradigm that sees them as easily replaceable by any of the hordes of desperate new applicants for any position at all. It's pretty classic really.

I'm not arguing against loan forgiveness here, I'm merely saying the rules of the game have changed drastically, and not in the favor of the individual worker.

Not megumic but -the very top firms here are still offering the same high salaries and raises however bonuses have decreased - although even that might be rebounding since many of these firms are adding on a smaller second Spring bonus this year. You are extremely right about the top public lawyer jobs however, while they were always a high prestigious position there is a lot more competition from those unable to land top firms.

Firms have drastically reduced their summer classes and are not coming anywhere near replacing the associates that were let go in 2008 and 2009. Salaries are back up but they're paying a lot fewer people. No firm wants to get themselves back into the over-leveraged situation they experienced in 2008-2009.

 

[lucyandroger]

I can understand your position, but the thing is, I think people really do work incredibly hard and still end up below median. The grading is just more arbitrary than you might think (like my contracts class, where the curve was razor sharp and the difference btw a median grade in the class and top 10% was 10/200 points). Now, I've not done poorly, and BF has cleaned up, but we could both talk your ear off with stories of friends who did "everything right" and didn't see it reflected in their grades. And for that matter, BF is a terrible student. He only goes to class half the time, doesn't start reading until a few weeks before finals, cobbles together a half-hearted outline and is top single-digits-%, so when you say, oh, his classmates who are bottom half should have worked as hard as he did... well they'd probably lynch you, haha. I am not saying it's luck, because it isn't, but it also isn't hard work. IMO it's a tricky combination of hard work & an intuition for how law school exams are written & game-day performance (which is a little bit luck, to be fair).

The whole school has been abuzz about that article. I agree with you that grown adults should be held accountable, but some of the blame lies with schools who publish deceptive salary info, and a good chunk with the government, who just keeps feeding the beast by not setting appropriate limits on how much you can take out, expected income, etc. When such terrible decisions are being made, there's blame to go around. I know a girl with $100k debt from her undergrad. Was she a moron? Yes. Should the gov't have spent our money on her 7 years of college? Um, no!

IMO,if heavy student loan debt is a problem, it's one we're still perpetuating by lending out stupid amounts of money for liberal arts degrees. Like I said above, you could argue that it's appropriate for the government to support higher ed, so if people default, it's a good use of gov't money anyway, but if that's the end goal, this seems like the dumbest of all ways to go about it.

Totally agree with this post.

 

[NewEnglandLady]

I readily admit that I was a stupid 18-year-old who took on quite a bit of debt ($60K) in order to get my undergrad degree thinking I could pay it off fairly easily once I got a high-paying job. My parents were too poor to pay for college, but made too much for me to qualify for financial aid and I did apply to every scholarship I could and ended up getting about half of my education paid that way. I also took summer classes and graduated in 3 years instead of 4, which helped.

I hated that I started my life in the hole and basically lived on rice and beans in order to pay off my debt (which I did in about 7 years...much longer than I anticipated). Once I paid off the debt, I thought about getting my MBA, but you know what? It wasn't worth the money for me. I refused to go back into debt after crawling out of it and once I had the money to actually pay for grad school without going into debt, I decided I'd rather focus on retiring as early as I can!

In my opinion, education has become a business. I am not convinced that those coming out of college are any more intelligent or ready for the "real world" than high school grads who've worked in low-end jobs for a few years and built basic skills. It's obvious that undergrad degrees are becoming more and more meaningless, which only makes the problem worse since getting the degree is so costly.

 

[suchende]

FWIW 70% of the people in the class ahead of me at my school got a big firm job with a 6-figure starting salary. I don't think the wheels have come off the Cravath model the way some people are predicting. Don't get me wrong, I am not a big fan of the system as it is, but I am not seeing major changes. The recruiting model at my school appears to be untouched.

 

[megumic]

I'm kind of frustrated with this thread. If students never took out exorbitant student loans, we'd never any professionals in the world who require a graduate degree. I get the point that a PP made about planning ahead to reduce high student loans, but that's nearly impossible with graduate school, unless you get a scholarship. It used to be that you could file for bankruptcy on your student loans. That is no longer, but why?

Maybe I'm a little defensive because I'm a student who will have 6 figures of debt when I graduate from law school in a few months. I think student loan forgiveness for those who work in public interest or government positions deserve to have their loans forgiven. They are accepting to work in a lower-paying industry than they could (i.e. accepting a $60k salary that won't budge, versus going to a firm for a fancy first-year salary starting at $100k that will quickly and continuously spike....). Typically those that work in govt or public interest work do so because they are passionate about the work, and accordingly they need the financial "bone" of loan forgiveness.

Although the stats below do not include graduate degrees, it shows how much students take in loans on average just for undergraduate. If more than half of all students need loans ranging from $23k to $27k, on average, it's clear something is broken. Or, perhaps student debt is just part of the American college graduate lifestyle...

Two-thirds (65.6%) of 4-year undergraduate students graduated with a Bachelor's degree and some debt in 2007-08, and the average student loan debt among graduating seniors was $23,186 (excluding PLUS Loans but including Stafford, Perkins, state, college and private loans).
...
When one includes PLUS loans in the total, 66.0% of 4-year undergraduate students graduated with some debt in 2007-08, and the average cumulative debt incurred was $27,803.

Source: http://www.finaid.org/loans/

Part of that "new normal" is going to be (and you see it beginning now) that those firms offering those "fancy first-year salaries starting at $100k that will quickly and continuously spike" are not doing that anymore, (or have the reports I've been reading on such things just wrong? You would know better than I...) and that what used to supposedly be idealism in taking a public sector job, has now become, damn, I have massive debts to pay right NOW, and I just need a JOB! All the thrash about doing what makes you happy and fulfilled is falling to the reality of plain old survival. I see this happening right now to some of my young friends on FB. One comes to mind: highly educated - degree in anthropology, and currently working two low-paying dead-end jobs JUST to pay the loan, barely able to live beyond that. So much for being "fulfilled".

And unless we're exclusively talking about lawyer jobs, many federal positions are now paying quite a bit more than their public sector equivalents. When the world is now swimming in applicants for all the jobs out there, even the ones that a few years ago, college grads would have turned up their noses at, why the need for loan forgiveness to attract employees? I can vouch for this mindset in the public school sector, where teachers all over the country now have their backs to the wall against a business paradigm that sees them as easily replaceable by any of the hordes of desperate new applicants for any position at all. It's pretty classic really.

I'm not arguing against loan forgiveness here, I'm merely saying the rules of the game have changed drastically, and not in the favor of the individual worker.

I don't disagree with what you call the "new norm" and that the rules of the game have changed, I just refuse to accept it. Of course, we all need money to have a roof over our heads and food in our bellies, but I reject the idea that as a society we should just take whatever jobs we can get because we need money and accordingly should forget what makes us fulfilled and happy.

I understand that that is a reality for a lot of people and many of them are thrilled just to be making ends meet. But at the same time, student loans shouldn't shackle us to a job we are overqualified to perform. Unfortunately, as you mention, we've got hordes of new applicants for everything and everyone is replaceable. But doesn't that show the attitude of pure capitalism at its best? We've just become too greedy, focusing only on that bottom line.

In my mind, pursuing higher education shouldn't mean being forced out of the very industry in which you are educated just to pay your loans -- this defeats the purpose of pursuing an education and leaves society with fewer skilled/educated individuals to perform a certain job that may be (or perhaps not...) in high demand.

Maybe the supply of higher educational institutions outweighs demand and thus leaves each school with a deficit, forcing the school to charge higher tuition rates to make up for the difference...? Can anyone speak to this?

 

[Siamese Kitty]

I'm kind of frustrated with this thread. If students never took out exorbitant student loans, we'd never any professionals in the world who require a graduate degree. I get the point that a PP made about planning ahead to reduce high student loans, but that's nearly impossible with graduate school, unless you get a scholarship. It used to be that you could file for bankruptcy on your student loans. That is no longer, but why?

Maybe I'm a little defensive because I'm a student who will have 6 figures of debt when I graduate from law school in a few months. I think student loan forgiveness for those who work in public interest or government positions deserve to have their loans forgiven. They are accepting to work in a lower-paying industry than they could (i.e. accepting a $60k salary that won't budge, versus going to a firm for a fancy first-year salary starting at $100k that will quickly and continuously spike....). Typically those that work in govt or public interest work do so because they are passionate about the work, and accordingly they need the financial "bone" of loan forgiveness.

Although the stats below do not include graduate degrees, it shows how much students take in loans on average just for undergraduate. If more than half of all students need loans ranging from $23k to $27k, on average, it's clear something is broken. Or, perhaps student debt is just part of the American college graduate lifestyle...

Two-thirds (65.6%) of 4-year undergraduate students graduated with a Bachelor's degree and some debt in 2007-08, and the average student loan debt among graduating seniors was $23,186 (excluding PLUS Loans but including Stafford, Perkins, state, college and private loans).
...
When one includes PLUS loans in the total, 66.0% of 4-year undergraduate students graduated with some debt in 2007-08, and the average cumulative debt incurred was $27,803.

Source: http://www.finaid.org/loans/

I'm honestly a bit frustrated, too. Perhaps PS has a high concentration of the 1/3 of students who didn't take/need student loans, but not everyone has a paying parent or a college fund. Even those of us who do, is it going to be enough? The problem really does lie with the disparity between the cost of higher education and wage levels. Even state schools can be really expensive to the lower/middle-class. Should those young adults just not go to school? Or as mentioned above, just choose a degree that will make them money, regardless of talent or interest?

I don't get the house comparison at all either. We are talking about someone who has chosen the only means possible (as a teenager most likely) to educate themselves in order to become a productive member of society. Then we're comparing this someone with a "responsible" adult who felt they just had to have a 4000 sq ft home they couldn't afford and didn't need? Then said college student goes out and works a job for loan "forgiveness" and this is somehow viewed as an entitlement program? Not to mention, these jobs (as stated above) pay less and at least in the case of teaching, are often in understaffed disciplines in challenging school districts. House foreclosure person files bankruptcy and walks away, repaying very little if any of their debt.

I do have some students loans, and I will repay every penny. I had scholarships, assistantships with remitted tuition in grad school, grants, you name it, but it wasn't enough. But as a taxpayer, I would heavily prefer my money going to educational forgiveness programs that give our best, brightest, and least privileged a shot at an education rather than some other programs I could mention.