Those of you with Student Loans

[mayachel]

In the past couple of years, loan forgiveness in the US seemed to come up every so often, but I haven't heard a whisper about it in over a year. So, just for the fun of it-what do you think? what have you heard?

I know this is all just speculation, but as someone about to finish grad school, despite only taking some unsubsidized loans, I do feel aware of the massive debt facing me. I have already finished paying back around $20,000 in loans from undergrad, so feel confident that it is doable, but this time around the debt will be sig. higher and interest rates aren't what they were 10 years ago.

 

[that_someone_special]

I have one friend that desperately needs it. She has $140k in loans now... no good paying job.. no health benefits... she can barely eat and has no money for loans. It's so sad. They want over $1500 a month for her loans and she doesn't make near that. After seeing what her and a few friends have gone through with loans I just strongly suggest to pay that stuff off asap- if that means, no trips or jewelry... well..

 

[Octavia]

My undergrad loans are significantly smaller but are at a ridiculously low interest rate, so I'm not worried about paying those quickly. My law school loans are at 6.55% (was 6.8% but direct debit knocks it down a bit), which is not good at all. Loan forgiveness is available for some lawyers, but only with a minimum aggregate amount of public interest/public service work. I'm not exactly sure what the requirements are in other disciplines, though. I know that many of my classmates are planning to apply once eligible, but we're nowhere near that point yet.

Personally, though, I won't be taking advantage of loan forgiveness. First, I don't qualify for an income-contingent repayment plan, so my payoff timeline is less than ten years, and the loans aren't eligible until ten years have passed. And although I intend to stay in public service (as long as I am able to find another gov't job after my clerkship), I don't want my loans hanging over my head that long. Financially, it's not smart for us either -- we have too high a combined income to take advantage of the student loan interest deduction, and the amount of interest I'd pay over the next 10 years would basically cancel out the forgiven amount, plus you pay taxes on the amount of the loan that gets forgiven at the end. My DH was getting a stupidly low rate on some savings he had, so we did some calculations and decided to use a portion of that to pay down a big chunk of my loans. I'd rather "owe" him than some big bank. And the hundreds of dollars in interest I'd otherwise be paying can go back into paying off the remainder and building up the savings again. It hurts to see the bank balance go down so much, but it's much smarter for us in the long run.

Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of people for whom the loan forgiveness programs will be an amazing help. It just made no sense for me, in my situation. And even if it did, I think I would struggle with hanging onto the debt for longer than necessary just to get the "payday" at the end, if there was any chance of paying them off before I got to that point. I'd probably feel differently if I had a higher debt load, though.

 

[neatfreak]

There are a number of ways that the gov't will help with student loan repayment. But that's assuming that they are only federal loans. Private loans and you are out of luck.

There is the Income Based Repayment program, which caps the amount of money you pay back per month based on your income. Then after a number of years, 10 if you work in public service or 25 otherwise, it discharges the amount left. This is a GREAT way for those with small incomes to pay off large debts.

The easiest way out IMO is to get a job in public service. MANY jobs qualify and then you can get the rest discharged after making 120 payments (i.e., 10 years). If you make very little your monthly payment will be manageable.

There actually were a number of small changes to the federal student loan programs in PPACA, aka, health care reform. But I personally wouldn't get your hopes up that you'll see some huge program to relieve student debt anytime soon. Ain't gonna happen IMO.

 

[ksinger]

There are a number of ways that the gov't will help with student loan repayment. But that's assuming that they are only federal loans. Private loans and you are out of luck.

There is the Income Based Repayment program, which caps the amount of money you pay back per month based on your income. Then after a number of years, 10 if you work in public service or 25 otherwise, it discharges the amount left. This is a GREAT way for those with small incomes to pay off large debts.

The easiest way out IMO is to get a job in public service. MANY jobs qualify and then you can get the rest discharged after making 120 payments (i.e., 10 years). If you make very little your monthly payment will be manageable.

There actually were a number of small changes to the federal student loan programs in PPACA, aka, health care reform. But I personally wouldn't get your hopes up that you'll see some huge program to relieve student debt anytime soon. Ain't gonna happen IMO.

Yeah, well, I hate to be a downer, but don't get your hopes too high for federal positions either. There is currently a hiring freeze, pay freeze, only the most minimal travel, less heat, less AC, less janitorial staff, and less security. There is talk swirling about reducing federal bennies too. And they're just getting warmed up with the cuts in the federal sector. I know that federal jobs ARE available, but they are likely to be drying up for a good bit.

 

[JulieN]

It's not going to happen. You can IBR that, go into public service, etc, but there's going to be no real forgiveness.

 

[Tuckins1]

I do qualify for loan forgiveness, and I am absolutely going to take advantage of it! For special education, you have to work in a low income rural or urban school for 5 years. After that, the government will forgive up to $17,500 of your student loans. I'm just now in my first semester of grad school, so i'm just adding to my debt... But that $17,500 will definitely help!

 

[swingirl]

I have one friend that desperately needs it. She has $140k in loans now... no good paying job.. no health benefits... she can barely eat and has no money for loans. It's so sad. They want over $1500 a month for her loans and she doesn't make near that. After seeing what her and a few friends have gone through with loans I just strongly suggest to pay that stuff off asap- if that means, no trips or jewelry... well..

$140K in loans and no job? How could that happen?
What sort of college degree does one get that doesn't lead to a career or job?

Quite honestly I don't want the government to forgive student loans. I don't want to pay for someone's education beyond what the government subsidizes or allows under certain forgiveness programs. Private colleges are expensive and everyone knows that when they make that choice. I've had to send my kids to a cheap community college and state school because that's what we can afford. So it's hard to sympathize with those who needed a private unaffordable school for their education or a graduate degree that did not lead to employment.

 

[Siamese Kitty]

I have one friend that desperately needs it. She has $140k in loans now... no good paying job.. no health benefits... she can barely eat and has no money for loans. It's so sad. They want over $1500 a month for her loans and she doesn't make near that. After seeing what her and a few friends have gone through with loans I just strongly suggest to pay that stuff off asap- if that means, no trips or jewelry... well..

$140K in loans and no job? How could that happen?
What sort of college degree does one get that doesn't lead to a career or job?

Quite honestly I don't want the government to forgive student loans. I don't want to pay for someone's education beyond what the government subsidizes or allows under certain forgiveness programs. Private colleges are expensive and everyone knows that when they make that choice. I've had to send my kids to a cheap community college and state school because that's what we can afford. So it's hard to sympathize with those who needed a private unaffordable school for their education or a graduate degree that did not lead to employment.

Swingirl, I agree with you to an extent and the case above may very well be someone who overindulged in private education. That said, please understand you can have student loans for the most frugal of state schools/community colleges if your parents couldn't afford to foot the bill. Even if a student works in college, their debt is going to exceed their pay. College tuition is insane these days. I'm teaching a class this semester with a $350 book/workbook package.

Let it also be said that some students choose these expensive schools at 17/18 years old and don't know what they're getting into, especially those who are first generation college students whose parents can't advise them better. And sometimes fields of expertise go sour and you're left at a crossroads-cut your losses and start over with debt, or go for broke, take more loans, and get an advanced degree in the field to increase your odds of finding a job.

Obviously, that is not the fault of the responsible tax payer who "does the right thing". Just another perspective.

This post wasn't entirely directed at the one above, by the way.

 

[suchende]

I will owe a sick amount of money by the time I am done with school, and BF will owe even more. We're both law students at a school with cost of attendance around $70k/year. I am lucky that, besides IBR, my school has a forgiveness plan of its own, which is designed to work with IBR to dramatically reduce my financial burden on a sliding scale according to income if I can find a public interest or government job. I'd like to do federal government, but as ksinger mentioned, this is sure no guarantee.

BF has an internship next summer that, if it turns into a full time offer (like these things traditionally do in law), will easily pay back his loans -- assuming he can keep the job. It's a stressful thing for sure, but we chose to go to this school because we thought the job prospects were better than at cheaper ones. I came here over "better" schools for about 1/3 reduced tuition over my next best alternative.

It's pretty amazing to me that the government is willing to make these freaking gigantic student loans to just about anyone who wants them. I know a lot of people who are going deeply into debt for degrees that don't necessarily lead to jobs, and I have no idea how they'll ever be able to pay the gov't back. I guess if they don't it isn't a terrible use of taxpayer dollars really; I would rather see our money go to educational institutions than spending even more on some of our current programs, but it seems like lots of defaults and late payments are inevitable, and I don't trust the people who are in charge of calculating the real future cost to be doing so accurately. It's going to be a big budget headache sooner or later.

 

[swingirl]

My understanding is that in most cases student loans are not forgivable, but things might be changing.

A few years ago it was much more common for a student to take off a year or so from school to work and save money for their tuition. 99% of these people (baby boomers) were also the first in their families to graduate high school and college. But rather than take out loans they postponed their education to work and save. Most of them made it through just fine and got some work experience along the way.

 

[suchende]

Here's my understanding of student loan "forgiveness," correct me if I'm mistaken: you still cannot discharge your debt through bankruptcy, however, under the new federal program, if you have certain types of jobs (like non-profits and other types of work the program seeks to encourage) and pay back a certain amount towards your loans calculated according to your income, the debt will be forgiven after 10 years. You will have to pay taxes on the interest of this because this is essentially "income" you're receiving to pay off the balance, and it's gonna be a doozy. The other way is to pay a percentage of your income for 25 years, and then the remainder will also be forgiven. This doesn't have the same restrictions on types of jobs. As I mentioned above, some schools have their own "forgiveness" programs and will pay off your debt for you under certain circumstances.

 

[mayachel]

I am always impressed by the wide range of knowledge this group possess. I especially appreciate hearing more about the ins and outs of public programs. I am in health care, a soon to be midwife, who did go to a state school, with in-state tuition, but let me tell you, $20,000 a year plus living, adds up quickly. I have owned my own business and worked for 5 years before going back to school. So in the beginning, I didn't qualify for the subsidized loans. Each year, I was able to work less and less, as the school and clinical hours required more and more time. So each year I qualified for a little bit more. Now, I have no savings left. (Thankfully my husband does.) Still, I'm not sure those of you who haven't been in school recently are aware that the state cap given of fully subsidized loans, meaning no interest until I graduate, is only $2000 a year! That doesn't cover much of that $20,000 slice. The rest is a federal loan, currently around 6% a private loan (which I did not take) would be closer to 10-12%. Yeesh!

I don't have any intention of filing for bankruptcy, nor am I trying to "get out" of paying it.

Being in the health field there are some programs, for working with low income populations, and yes we do still have a hiring freeze going on. Although, it is my impression they can fill vacancies of people who leave. What I don't understand about this program is, do you still earn an income while working? Or does all of what you would earn go to the loan, but is then matched so worth more in repayment?

 

[rockzilla]

My understanding is that in most cases student loans are not forgivable, but things might be changing.

A few years ago it was much more common for a student to take off a year or so from school to work and save money for their tuition. 99% of these people (baby boomers) were also the first in their families to graduate high school and college. But rather than take out loans they postponed their education to work and save. Most of them made it through just fine and got some work experience along the way.

The chart below shows why this is simply no longer a reasonable strategy. College tuition has increased MUCH faster than the inflation rate. So, tuition that was, say $10k in 1985 would now be ~$55k. Say a student back then took a part or full time job paying $10k/year, and their parents provided room & board -- they would have been able to swing a year's tuition with minimal debt. That same job today would pay $20k/year, not even covering half of tuition. You'd have to work and save (everything) for TEN years to save up the cost of four years of college.

Given that the job you can get before/during college is likely to be lower paying than after college, it doesn't make sense to delay school to "save up" IF you can get reasonable loans and go into a decent paying field after. Students saving up for college before going/ working their way through is just no longer workable...it'd be like telling folks to save up to pay for a house in cash rather than taking out a mortgage.

 

[kagordo4]

I'm in my first year of Medical School and I must say it makes me a little sick to my stomach anytime I think about how much money I'll be paying back.

 

[neatfreak]

There are a number of ways that the gov't will help with student loan repayment. But that's assuming that they are only federal loans. Private loans and you are out of luck.

There is the Income Based Repayment program, which caps the amount of money you pay back per month based on your income. Then after a number of years, 10 if you work in public service or 25 otherwise, it discharges the amount left. This is a GREAT way for those with small incomes to pay off large debts.

The easiest way out IMO is to get a job in public service. MANY jobs qualify and then you can get the rest discharged after making 120 payments (i.e., 10 years). If you make very little your monthly payment will be manageable.

There actually were a number of small changes to the federal student loan programs in PPACA, aka, health care reform. But I personally wouldn't get your hopes up that you'll see some huge program to relieve student debt anytime soon. Ain't gonna happen IMO.

Yeah, well, I hate to be a downer, but don't get your hopes too high for federal positions either. There is currently a hiring freeze, pay freeze, only the most minimal travel, less heat, less AC, less janitorial staff, and less security. There is talk swirling about reducing federal bennies too. And they're just getting warmed up with the cuts in the federal sector. I know that federal jobs ARE available, but they are likely to be drying up for a good bit.

Agreed, but there are MANY other jobs that qualify you for the public service loan forgiveness. They don't have to be federal jobs to be public service. See below, MANY jobs qualify:

___________________________________________________
For purposes of the Public Service Loan Forgiveness Program, the term “public service organization” means –

A federal, state, local, or Tribal government organization, agency, or entity (includes most public schools, colleges and
universities);
A public child or family service agency;
A non-profit organization under section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code that is exempt from taxation under
section 501(a) of the Internal Revenue Code (includes most not-for-profit private schools, colleges, and universities);
A Tribal college or university; or
A private organization that is not a for-profit business, a labor union, a partisan political organization, or an organiza
tion engaged in religious activities (unless the qualifying activities are unrelated to religious instruction, worship
services, or any form of proselytizing) and that provides the following public services –
Emergency management;
Military service;
Public safety;
Law enforcement;
Public interest law services;
Early childhood education (including licensed or regulated health care, Head Start, and state-funded pre-kin
dergarten);
Public service for individuals with disabilities and the elderly;
Public health (including nurses, nurse practioners, nurses in a clinical setting, and full-time professionals
engaged in health care practioner occupations and health care support occupations);
Public education;
Public library services; and
School library or other school-based services

 

[Tuckins1]

I have one friend that desperately needs it. She has $140k in loans now... no good paying job.. no health benefits... she can barely eat and has no money for loans. It's so sad. They want over $1500 a month for her loans and she doesn't make near that. After seeing what her and a few friends have gone through with loans I just strongly suggest to pay that stuff off asap- if that means, no trips or jewelry... well..

$140K in loans and no job? How could that happen?
What sort of college degree does one get that doesn't lead to a career or job?

Quite honestly I don't want the government to forgive student loans. I don't want to pay for someone's education beyond what the government subsidizes or allows under certain forgiveness programs. Private colleges are expensive and everyone knows that when they make that choice. I've had to send my kids to a cheap community college and state school because that's what we can afford. So it's hard to sympathize with those who needed a private unaffordable school for their education or a graduate degree that did not lead to employment.

I didn't go to a private college... The government is kind enough to recognize that teaching in an urban or rural, low income district won't pay CRAP. It's their way of trying to get quality teachers to work there and stay there.... I got my job BEFORE I was even graduated. And I payed for my books myself and worked two jobs while in school to support myself.

 

[ksinger]

My understanding is that in most cases student loans are not forgivable, but things might be changing.

A few years ago it was much more common for a student to take off a year or so from school to work and save money for their tuition. 99% of these people (baby boomers) were also the first in their families to graduate high school and college. But rather than take out loans they postponed their education to work and save. Most of them made it through just fine and got some work experience along the way.

The chart below shows why this is simply no longer a reasonable strategy. College tuition has increased MUCH faster than the inflation rate. So, tuition that was, say $10k in 1985 would now be ~$55k. Say a student back then took a part or full time job paying $10k/year, and their parents provided room & board -- they would have been able to swing a year's tuition with minimal debt. That same job today would pay $20k/year, not even covering half of tuition. You'd have to work and save (everything) for TEN years to save up the cost of four years of college.

Given that the job you can get before/during college is likely to be lower paying than after college, it doesn't make sense to delay school to "save up" IF you can get reasonable loans and go into a decent paying field after. Students saving up for college before going/ working their way through is just no longer workable...it'd be like telling folks to save up to pay for a house in cash rather than taking out a mortgage.

Such sobering statistics. It not only breaks my heart for you guys, it also drives home the fact that I probably would not be able to swing college today, and certainly can't justify any type of grad school at this point. My mother, that child of The Depression, would have hurked up a lung before she'd had let me, (or signed for me) to get into the level of debt that most college students are having to take on nowadays. It's truly criminal. And now, the return on that investment is not only not assured, heck, you can barely even get out from under the load to start a life.

I came out from 5 1/2 years of college time (in 1986) at a decent state university with a total loan bill of $9800. I got about 2/3's more in state and federal grants, and I worked part time starting my second year of college. But still....pretty doable. Today? OMG.

 

[ksinger]

There are a number of ways that the gov't will help with student loan repayment. But that's assuming that they are only federal loans. Private loans and you are out of luck.

There is the Income Based Repayment program, which caps the amount of money you pay back per month based on your income. Then after a number of years, 10 if you work in public service or 25 otherwise, it discharges the amount left. This is a GREAT way for those with small incomes to pay off large debts.

The easiest way out IMO is to get a job in public service. MANY jobs qualify and then you can get the rest discharged after making 120 payments (i.e., 10 years). If you make very little your monthly payment will be manageable.

There actually were a number of small changes to the federal student loan programs in PPACA, aka, health care reform. But I personally wouldn't get your hopes up that you'll see some huge program to relieve student debt anytime soon. Ain't gonna happen IMO.

Yeah, well, I hate to be a downer, but don't get your hopes too high for federal positions either. There is currently a hiring freeze, pay freeze, only the most minimal travel, less heat, less AC, less janitorial staff, and less security. There is talk swirling about reducing federal bennies too. And they're just getting warmed up with the cuts in the federal sector. I know that federal jobs ARE available, but they are likely to be drying up for a good bit.

Agreed, but there are MANY other jobs that qualify you for the public service loan forgiveness. They don't have to be federal jobs to be public service. See below, MANY jobs qualify:

___________________________________________________
For purposes of the Public Service Loan Forgiveness Program, the term “public service organization” means –

A federal, state, local, or Tribal government organization, agency, or entity (includes most public schools, colleges and
universities);
A public child or family service agency;
A non-profit organization under section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code that is exempt from taxation under
section 501(a) of the Internal Revenue Code (includes most not-for-profit private schools, colleges, and universities);
A Tribal college or university; or
A private organization that is not a for-profit business, a labor union, a partisan political organization, or an organiza
tion engaged in religious activities (unless the qualifying activities are unrelated to religious instruction, worship
services, or any form of proselytizing) and that provides the following public services –
Emergency management;
Military service;
Public safety;
Law enforcement;
Public interest law services;
Early childhood education (including licensed or regulated health care, Head Start, and state-funded pre-kin
dergarten);
Public service for individuals with disabilities and the elderly;
Public health (including nurses, nurse practioners, nurses in a clinical setting, and full-time professionals
engaged in health care practioner occupations and health care support occupations);
Public education;
Public library services; and
School library or other school-based services

Great info! Thanks!

I wonder how many loans these days are actually originated with the federal gov. Not all that many I suspect, just from what I've heard over the years. I know when I was getting loans, they really WERE from Uncle Sam, not from a local lender. (Uncle Sam propping up banks don'tcha know). All that loan forgiveness stuff sounds great, but doesn't do anyone much good if the fed isn't really making but about 5 direct loans a year. I know my husband sourly noted that all that loan forgiveness, began right AFTER he paid his off. (He's in one of those low-income urban districts). Said it was testament yet again to his stellar timing.

 

[Octavia]

I wonder how many loans these days are actually originated with the federal gov. Not all that many I suspect, just from what I've heard over the years. I know when I was getting loans, they really WERE from Uncle Sam, not from a local lender. (Uncle Sam propping up banks don'tcha know). All that loan forgiveness stuff sounds great, but doesn't do anyone much good if the fed isn't really making but about 5 direct loans a year. I know my husband sourly noted that all that loan forgiveness, began right AFTER he paid his off. (He's in one of those low-income urban districts). Said it was testament yet again to his stellar timing.

For many years, big banks acted as middlemen for federal student loans. But recently, the government resumed direct lending because of the abuses and inefficiencies in the middleman system. I know that, if I wanted to pursue loan forgiveness for my law school loans, I would have had to consolidate them into the Federal Direct program, which basically means that the government takes back ownership of the note. I think my graduating class was the last group who got all our federal loans through indirect channels.

Rockzilla, thanks for posting that graph. I remember when I was in HS, my business teacher said he felt sorry for kids nowadays because, when he was in college, he could work all summer and make enough for tuition, books, and living expenses for the next year. Now, you scarcely make enough for books, and most "employers" actually want you to work for free. When I was in law school, the only way I could get paid in the summer was through work-study, and my loans for the next year were reduced correspondingly...but the student budget is only calculated on the 9 months of the school year, so basically we were supposed to have NO expenses for the summer (including things like rent, food, transit) to make the budget work. I felt really bad for my friends who didn't have a SO to pitch in, they were constantly at the financial aid office begging for extensions to their loans.

 

[ksinger]

I wonder how many loans these days are actually originated with the federal gov. Not all that many I suspect, just from what I've heard over the years. I know when I was getting loans, they really WERE from Uncle Sam, not from a local lender. (Uncle Sam propping up banks don'tcha know). All that loan forgiveness stuff sounds great, but doesn't do anyone much good if the fed isn't really making but about 5 direct loans a year. I know my husband sourly noted that all that loan forgiveness, began right AFTER he paid his off. (He's in one of those low-income urban districts). Said it was testament yet again to his stellar timing.

For many years, big banks acted as middlemen for federal student loans. But recently, the government resumed direct lending because of the abuses and inefficiencies in the middleman system. I know that, if I wanted to pursue loan forgiveness for my law school loans, I would have had to consolidate them into the Federal Direct program, which basically means that the government takes back ownership of the note. I think my graduating class was the last group who got all our federal loans through indirect channels.

Rockzilla, thanks for posting that graph. I remember when I was in HS, my business teacher said he felt sorry for kids nowadays because, when he was in college, he could work all summer and make enough for tuition, books, and living expenses for the next year. Now, you scarcely make enough for books, and most "employers" actually want you to work for free. When I was in law school, the only way I could get paid in the summer was through work-study, and my loans for the next year were reduced correspondingly...but the student budget is only calculated on the 9 months of the school year, so basically we were supposed to have NO expenses for the summer (including things like rent, food, transit) to make the budget work. I felt really bad for my friends who didn't have a SO to pitch in, they were constantly at the financial aid office begging for extensions to their loans.

More info! LOL! I've been out of the game for (mmghghghhffhgh) years now, so it's looking like the pendulum has swung SEVERAL times since I last checked. And allow me my sour little "political" observation....I have no idea why the fed would have ever thought that local banks would NOT end up abusing that little system. But then the government turning a blind eye to banks of all stripes is a good part of why we find ourselves in this mess in the first place. <end tiny political comment>

But aside from the loans and the issues around THEM, a lot of this mess has been created by the universities, as illustrated by that graph of cost. Lord, but what is UP with that? Talk about a bad bargain, at least these days. We (as a society) rant and rave about how everyone needs to go to college to compete in the new economy, but who in heck can afford it?? All that debt and low-paying or NO jobs? It used to be that spending that extra money for a top-flight school would reap great rewards over a lifetime, but one has to wonder if that still holds true. One thing though, it sure ain't available to the average people anymore, and even some state colleges are out of the reach of many. Very sad.

 

[neatfreak]

I wonder how many loans these days are actually originated with the federal gov. Not all that many I suspect, just from what I've heard over the years. I know when I was getting loans, they really WERE from Uncle Sam, not from a local lender. (Uncle Sam propping up banks don'tcha know). All that loan forgiveness stuff sounds great, but doesn't do anyone much good if the fed isn't really making but about 5 direct loans a year. I know my husband sourly noted that all that loan forgiveness, began right AFTER he paid his off. (He's in one of those low-income urban districts). Said it was testament yet again to his stellar timing.

A surprising amount of people I know have only federal loans actually (and I am finishing my PhD so I know a lot of people with loans!).

There are a lot of loan types that are federal that qualify.

Much has changed in recent years for the betterment of students, in particularly in the last few years with PPACA and the student loan legislation as well.

Not huge changes, but every bit counts IMO!

Will answer any other questions anyone has, I work in public policy and deal with medical students, so I am very familiar with all the loan regs and new programs.

 

[suchende]

Will answer any other questions anyone has, I work in public policy and deal with medical students, so I am very familiar with all the loan regs and new programs.

Do you think the gov't will change or limit anything related to IBR? It seems like it could turn out to be a very expensive program; do you know what sorts of cost projections have been done? Do you think they're sufficient?

I worry there may be some public opinion backlash due to the growth of for-profit educational institutions, which, as I understand it, are taking a big chunk of the subsidized loan money and are publicly-traded companies.

 

[purselover]

Not sure how I feel about the government covering loan forgiveness. DH believes you should never take out more in loans than you'll make your first year working after graduation and I tend to agree with him. He currently has 6 figures in debt from law school but he'll have no trouble paying it back in a few years from his corporate position. If he had chosen to go into public service then the law school themselves would provide loan forgiveness as one of the perks of choosing to attend there. I'll only owe about $30k from my masters degree and while I will probably qualify for some forgiveness b/c I'll most likely teach in a low income area we plan on paying off my debt my first year out so I doubt we will carry any long enough to make it worthwhile. Plus I like not being tied to a school just so I can have my education paid for.

 

[Tuckins1]

Not sure how I feel about the government covering loan forgiveness. DH believes you should never take out more in loans than you'll make your first year working after graduation and I tend to agree with him. He currently has 6 figures in debt from law school but he'll have no trouble paying it back in a few years from his corporate position. If he had chosen to go into public service then the law school themselves would provide loan forgiveness as one of the perks of choosing to attend there. I'll only owe about $30k from my masters degree and while I will probably qualify for some forgiveness b/c I'll most likely teach in a low income area we plan on paying off my debt my first year out so I doubt we will carry any long enough to make it worthwhile. Plus I like not being tied to a school just so I can have my education paid for.

It's not that I can't pay them back, it's a benefit that the government will give me for being in a not so great district with not so great pay. It's to get teachers to stay in a crappy district instead of only going to the higher SES, more affluent areas. The same with nurses and federal employees.

 

[suchende]

Not sure how I feel about the government covering loan forgiveness. DH believes you should never take out more in loans than you'll make your first year working after graduation and I tend to agree with him. He currently has 6 figures in debt from law school but he'll have no trouble paying it back in a few years from his corporate position. If he had chosen to go into public service then the law school themselves would provide loan forgiveness as one of the perks of choosing to attend there. I'll only owe about $30k from my masters degree and while I will probably qualify for some forgiveness b/c I'll most likely teach in a low income area we plan on paying off my debt my first year out so I doubt we will carry any long enough to make it worthwhile. Plus I like not being tied to a school just so I can have my education paid for.

But isn't this really a gamble? I am sitting right now next to a girl who will have $150k in law school debt who doesn't have a job lined up after graduation and probably won't make $150k, although when she made the decision to come to law school she thought she would. She just happened to be in the half of the class who ends up below median in terms of grades, and hasn't secured a second-year summer internship at a corporate firm, though she thought she would. I don't think her belief was irrational either, since she got into a top 5 law program with some merit-based scholarship. It doesn't seem right to me that higher ed (at least in law) has turned into a high-stakes casino game. That doesn't mean that the federal gov't should automatically be who pays the bill, but there are certainly reasons why we might want that.

 

[Haven]

Not sure how I feel about the government covering loan forgiveness. DH believes you should never take out more in loans than you'll make your first year working after graduation and I tend to agree with him. He currently has 6 figures in debt from law school but he'll have no trouble paying it back in a few years from his corporate position. If he had chosen to go into public service then the law school themselves would provide loan forgiveness as one of the perks of choosing to attend there. I'll only owe about $30k from my masters degree and while I will probably qualify for some forgiveness b/c I'll most likely teach in a low income area we plan on paying off my debt my first year out so I doubt we will carry any long enough to make it worthwhile. Plus I like not being tied to a school just so I can have my education paid for.

It's not that I can't pay them back, it's a benefit that the government will give me for being in a not so great district with not so great pay. It's to get teachers to stay in a crappy district instead of only going to the higher SES, more affluent areas. The same with nurses and federal employees.

I agree with your husband, purselover, that students should not take out huge loans. My mother ingrained the idea that one should never pay for graduate school into my head, so I only attended once I had an employer who was willing to pay for the entire thing. If that hadn't worked out, I would have secured a full scholarship, first. (That's what I did for law school, but it turned out that I didn't want to be a lawyer, so I walked away from that.)

ANyway, as Tuckins said, the loan forgiveness for pubic service workers is to encourage qualified people to work in less desirable areas. I heard a story on NPR not so long ago about a dental school graduate who moved out to a very rural, economically depressed area, in order to take advantage of some sort of loan forgiveness. He was the first real dentist this area had ever had. Before he arrived, the nearest dentist was a very far distance away, which meant unreachable for the impoverished people of the area. I think that sort of thing is wonderful.

It's a tough situation for so many recent and soon-to-be grads. My own field (education) is super-saturated with recent graduates who go through what we call diploma mills and earn degrees and certificates that aren't really worth much in practice. Schools know which programs churn out unprepared graduates, and they don't make desirable candidates on a job market that is pretty desperate right now. To top it off, these grad programs cost around 30K, so people are choosing to attend sub-par programs, and to take on a lot of debt, when the job market is BLEAK. I don't think that is a wise choice, and it shouldn't be supported, in my opinion.

Katamari recently posted (in another thread) that she believes people shouldn't go to graduate school in the social sciences area unless they are fully funded. I could not agree more. That's not to say that I don't believe in loan forgiveness for people who spend ten years bringing a much needed service to a high-need area. That's a wonderful thing. I just think it's a bad idea to go into serious debt in the hopes of entering a field with dismal job prospects.

 

[purselover]

Not sure how I feel about the government covering loan forgiveness. DH believes you should never take out more in loans than you'll make your first year working after graduation and I tend to agree with him. He currently has 6 figures in debt from law school but he'll have no trouble paying it back in a few years from his corporate position. If he had chosen to go into public service then the law school themselves would provide loan forgiveness as one of the perks of choosing to attend there. I'll only owe about $30k from my masters degree and while I will probably qualify for some forgiveness b/c I'll most likely teach in a low income area we plan on paying off my debt my first year out so I doubt we will carry any long enough to make it worthwhile. Plus I like not being tied to a school just so I can have my education paid for.

But isn't this really a gamble? I am sitting right now next to a girl who will have $150k in law school debt who doesn't have a job lined up after graduation and probably won't make $150k, although when she made the decision to come to law school she thought she would. She just happened to be in the half of the class who ends up below median in terms of grades, and hasn't secured a second-year summer internship at a corporate firm, though she thought she would. I don't think her belief was irrational either, since she got into a top 5 law program with some merit-based scholarship. It doesn't seem right to me that higher ed (at least in law) has turned into a high-stakes casino game. That doesn't mean that the federal gov't should automatically be who pays the bill, but there are certainly reasons why we might want that.

Maybe it's harsh of me but I just can't have sympathy in that situation. You don't just end up in the bottom half of your class IMHO, law school is ridiculously hard work and you need to be prepared for that when you make the commitment to go. DH and I discussed ad nauseum whether he should go to a lower ranked (top 30) law school for free or a top 5 full price and we agreed top 5 all the way because of the better opportunities - but he went in with both of us fully prepared to sacrifice that first year to make sure his grades were stellar. We gave up anniversary dinners the entire time he's been in school, we planned a wedding around when would be the least stressful time, and sacrificed weekends out so he can study. We hardly had any quality time together that first year, but now he graduates in May near the very top of his class, not because it just happened but because he dedicated every moment to it.

If this girl didn't have a job because the firm did lay offs and her summer position fell through I would feel awful for her but that's not the case, in this instance this was in her control.

 

[suchende]

Maybe it's harsh of me but I just can't have sympathy in that situation. You don't just end up in the bottom half of your class IMHO, law school is ridiculously hard work and you need to be prepared for that when you make the commitment to go. DH and I discussed ad nauseum whether he should go to a lower ranked (top 30) law school for free or a top 5 full price and we agreed top 5 all the way because of the better opportunities - but he went in with both of us fully prepared to sacrifice that first year to make sure his grades were stellar. We gave up anniversary dinners the entire time he's been in school, we planned a wedding around when would be the least stressful time, and sacrificed weekends out so he can study. We hardly had any quality time together that first year, but now he graduates in May near the very top of his class, not because it just happened but because he dedicated every moment to it.

If this girl didn't have a job because the firm did lay offs and her summer position fell through I would feel awful for her but that's not the case, in this instance this was in her control.

I just can't agree (though you're entitled to not have sympathy). Half of everyone has to be below median, by definition. I won't say every single person I go to school with works as hard as they can every second of 1L, but some of my friends who are bottom half at my top 15 (I don't go to the same school as my friend) worked harder than I did. Most top programs are more than 50% hard-working, smart people. Someone has to be below median, and those people are going to have an uphill battle employment-wise and is probably going to have some debt. It's not fair to say they just should have done more or done better when law school is curved, against other capable and hard-working students.

Honestly I have a lot of sympathy for my friend and less sympathy for people who, against good advice, went to T30s or worse, paid sticker, and now don't have much hope of paying back their loans, but since the federal gov't decided to lend pretty much limitless cash in the name of higher ed, seems like the gov't's arguably bad decision is now everyone's bad decision.

Congratulations to your husband. It's an amazing accomplishment to be at the top of one's class at a top program.

 

[purselover]

Maybe it's harsh of me but I just can't have sympathy in that situation. You don't just end up in the bottom half of your class IMHO, law school is ridiculously hard work and you need to be prepared for that when you make the commitment to go. DH and I discussed ad nauseum whether he should go to a lower ranked (top 30) law school for free or a top 5 full price and we agreed top 5 all the way because of the better opportunities - but he went in with both of us fully prepared to sacrifice that first year to make sure his grades were stellar. We gave up anniversary dinners the entire time he's been in school, we planned a wedding around when would be the least stressful time, and sacrificed weekends out so he can study. We hardly had any quality time together that first year, but now he graduates in May near the very top of his class, not because it just happened but because he dedicated every moment to it.

If this girl didn't have a job because the firm did lay offs and her summer position fell through I would feel awful for her but that's not the case, in this instance this was in her control.

I just can't agree (though you're entitled to not have sympathy). Half of everyone has to be below median, by definition. I won't say every single person I go to school with works as hard as they can every second of 1L, but some of my friends who are bottom half at my top 15 (I don't go to the same school as my friend) worked harder than I did. Most top programs are more than 50% hard-working, smart people. Someone has to be below median, and those people are going to have an uphill battle employment-wise and is probably going to have some debt. It's not fair to say they just should have done more or done better when law school is curved, against other capable and hard-working students.

Honestly I have a lot of sympathy for my friend and less sympathy for people who, against good advice, went to T30s or worse, paid sticker, and now don't have much hope of paying back their loans, but since the federal gov't decided to lend pretty much limitless cash in the name of higher ed, seems like the gov't's arguably bad decision is now everyone's bad decision.

Congratulations to your husband. It's an amazing accomplishment to be at the top of one's class at a top program.

Logically I know you're right someone has to be at the bottom half, but I just can't help but feel when you take on that much debt you should work hard every second to make sure that investment pays off. This is a part of the reason I never went to law school despite my parents and DH pushing, I know I don't have that type of drive/commitment!

Although I definitely agree with you about people spending a ton of money (they don't have!) on law and other grad schools. Did you see the article in the NYTimes the other week called Is Law School A Losing Game? If not you and your SO should read it it's very interesting. I agree with a lot of the article (basically what you said don't spend a ton of money on lower tiered law schools) but DH who is much more sympathetic than I am felt bad for these people. He thinks people are naive and law schools prey on that while I tend to think that may be true but people need to be adults and make informed decisions!

RE the bolded above, I just told DH I'm really so against all this loan forgiveness b/c I barely want to pay off his loans let alone everyone elses

Thank you, I will pass that along to DH, in case you couldn't tell I'm an overly proud wife