talk to me about dogs

[AmberGretchen]

Date: 2/8/2010 3:31:32 PM
Author: NewEnglandLady

Date: 2/8/2010 1:57:48 PM
Author: AmberGretchen

Date: 2/8/2010 11:04:56 AM
Author: NewEnglandLady
Hey, Lovegem, how did the interview with the breeder go?

I currently show my younger dog and am a bit perplexed as to why a breeder would put all of the work into having a dog get his championship, then sell him. DEFINITELY ask him/her why he/she has decided to retire the dog. My gut tells me it''s a health issue, otherwise she would use hiim for breeding...especially if she''s in love with his temperament.

Also, make sure that she isn''t looking for a co-ownership. Unless, of course, you are okay with this. This would give her all breeding rights to the dog while you are considered the owner.

And finally, if you are interested in this dog, definitely ask the breeder for her opinion on neutering. There is a lot of medical research out there supporting the belief that keeping a dog in-tact is more healthy than neutering, so I would definitely talk with her about her lines and ask her what she believes is best for the dog, then take that into consideration before making any decisions.

Agreed with what NEL says about checking carefully into why she wants to sell the titled dog - that does sound fishy to me as well.

Re: the neutering, I think in your case, it sounds like neutering would be a really really good plan - you say yourself that you are not the most well-behaved people and aren''t planning on being super-strict with a dog, and an un-neutered male dog is something you have to be SUPER careful with - their mating urges are very strong and can lead to all kinds of bad behavior, including escaping to get to females.

Also, re: health issues - NEL, is there new research that I''m not aware of into health benefits of intact dogs in non-giant breeds? As far as I could tell from my research, for non-giant breeds, the pros (improved temperament, reduced risk of some cancers) pretty much equal the cons (possible issues with bone development, tendency to gain weight), and that plus the risk of adding more unwanted puppies makes me a very strong spay/neuter advocate. I know with your big guys, its a bit of a different story, but if there is new research for small and medium dogs, can you share it with me? I really worry about potentially sending the message that its OK for the average dog owner to leave their animal unfixed, due to the high risk of unwanted litters, and I know with all of your rescue and breed advocacy work you must too, hence I''d really like to see any new info you have that is leading you to write the post above.

Very good point, AG. I will definitely say that all of my research has been focused on giant breed dogs, however I was recently reading a study specifically on labs in which is why I thought it might be good for LG to ask her breeder specifically for her opinion on the matter. I wish I could provide an electronic link the the study (I did a quick search, but couldn''t find it). I was reading it at a local kennel club meeting before a handling class about a month ago. I agree that if a person is not willing to take on the extra work in order to ensure that the dog does not produce puppies, then he/she should not keep an in-tact dog. Eeighing the pros and cons of neutering the dog is something I would want to talk about with the breeder, though.

Fair enough - I freely concede there are health consequences of spaying and neutering, though there are also health consequences of not doing so. I just try to be super careful what I put out there in a public space, because those who are ignorant are so prone to mis-use the balanced information (such as what you''ve provided) for their own purposes or flawed logic.

I will do some poking around over the weekend and see if I can find the lab article you referenced.

 

[waterlilly]

Date: 2/8/2010 3:55:58 PM
Author: NewEnglandLady

Date: 2/8/2010 2:23:53 PM

Author: waterlilly

As I mentioned before - a breeder (a REPUTABLE one) would never, never, never sell one of their pet quality dogs intact. If they decided the dog was not worthy of breeding - they would never allow it to breed with their dogs or anyone else's. No true breeder wants a sub standard dog in the gene pool, especially one that they produced and would have their names attached to.


In my opinion, it's a no-brainer. If you aren't showing your dog, it should be fixed. There are health arguments both ways - but there is no disputing the disgusting numbers of perfectly good puppies and adult dogs that are gassed everyday in this country because of overpopulation. The last thing we need are more dogs being produced because a couple of irresponsible neighbors didn't watch their dogs close enough. Who want's an intact dog as a pet? When I have intact fosters I count the days until their surgery - they are such PITA's with raging hormones.

WL, while I am most active in the giant-breed world, it's very common for very reputable breeders to decide to sell a young adult dog in-tact (over 6 months). In fact, I've known several breeders who took BoB at Westminster who do this. Most reputable giant-breed dog breeders won't allow the dog to be neutered BEFORE a certain age. For my older dog it was 1 year and for my younger dog it is 15 months. I've looked over several contracts where the minimum age is 18 months to 24 months. Even for small/medium breeds, most reputable breeders don't want the dog neutered before the 6-month mark due to the issues with early neutering for all breed sizes.


I completely agree that overpopulation is a serious (and infuriating) issue. However I've also known many pet owners who've struggled with the neutering debate while figuring out what is healthiest for their dog, and I can understand that. Not to start any type of neutering debate here, and I do think that this particular scenario with the Corgi has some red flags, but in general I don't find it to be a red flag if a breeder sells a young adult dog in-tact so long as the parameters for neutering are outlined in the contract.

Yes, yes, I should have included instances when the dogs are simply too young - or the breeder has their own preference for an age it be done. What I should have said is that they will never sell an intact dog without a contract saying NO breeding allowed AND that surgery will be performed at the age determined to be best. Getting a 2.5 yo from a breeder with NO contract wouldn't happen with a good breeder.

As far as the raw diet, there's a ton of info on the web and there are a lot of strong opinions on this. One being, is that a pre-packaged raw diet is no better than premium kibble. Reason is - chewing and eating bones is a big part of the beneficial aspect of feeding raw. Feeding pre-packaged raw is like feeding canned food everyday - either they get the benefit of bones, or you need to feed a crunchy kibble to keep teeth/gums healthy. If you don't want to do raw, check out EVO kibble. Grain free, closest to raw you can get. Just stay away from any of the foods you see commercials for on TV and keep in mind that many vets have never heard of some of the top quality foods out there so they'll likely recommend commercial foods.

Energy will be the same as long as you feed a good kibble.

Also, if you are worried about not being home enough to care for a 2.5yo adult, keep in mind - a puppy is going to be 10x more work and more demanding of your time. Puppies require you to get up every few hours around the clock to let them out - months to house train, chewing stage, biting stage, etc. Whenever I foster puppies I need at least a 2 week rest to get my house back in order and decompress.

Corgis need a LOT of exercise regardless of age, so perhaps a more sedate breed would be better for you? Are you a runner? He's going to need more than just a casual walk once a day...people who ignore the physical and mental stimulation needs of herding dogs can end up with a very frustrated and destructive dog on their hands, so be sure you are ready !

 

[NewEnglandLady]

Date: 2/8/2010 4:29:54 PM
Author: lovegem
Thanks NEL, Waterlilly and Amber for sharing your thoughts.

I talked to the breeder and found out that the dog isn't neutered because she has been showing him and he is also the father of one of her litters. she didn't explicitly say why she's not using him anymore, but she did mention that the corgi is wider on his sides. She said he's healthy and great with kids and cats (problem is, we have birds, so she doesn't know whether the dog and my birds would get along or not).

He's also on a half raw diet. He is fed ground chicken meat three times a week (if I remember it right). NewEnglandLady, I know you also feed your dog a raw diet, maybe you can give me some idea about this.. If I switched the dog out of a raw diet, will the dog miss the raw meat? My birds may smell and look very tasty to him when/if he miss the raw meat. How's their energy level if we stop the raw meat diet?

We are also a little concern about this young corgi's well being if he lives with us. The breeder is retired, so she is home most of the time and like she said, she took them for a walk for 4 or 5 times a day and they have access to a big back yard, which we don't have because we live in an apartment. She also has 6 dogs in the house, so I am worried that this corgi would get lonely in our home.

We will meet the corgi next weekend and the breeder also has a clutch of puppies in March, we may be able to meet the parents first. In the mean time, I will continue to check on petfinder for a corgi.

Hey, LG, I know you said that she didn't state why he wasn't siring any more litters, but did she state why she's giving him up? I don't want to come off as paranoid, but I want to make sure she isn't avoiding the question since it could be a health issue that would cost you $$ and heartache down the road. Hopefully she wouldn't cover something like that up, but you never know!

Switching to a kibble should be fairly easy for you, especially since it sounds like he's on a part-kibble diet currently. I would ask the breeder what kibble she is currently feeding and use that during the transition period. Once the transition is over you can choose another kibble if you'd like. When we travel, I feed a kibble called Orijen.

Sounds like it could be a good fit, but it's great that you are weighing all of your options and thinking about this very practically. I'm sure that whatever decision you make will be for the best!

ETA: AG, your point is very well-taken. I definitely don't want to come off as anti-neutering, nor do I want to make it seem like the general public should avoid fixing their pets!