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Strange and tricky situation . . . HELP!!!

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Irishgrrrl

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OK, this is going to be a long story I''m afraid. It kinda involves religion, so I''m going to try to be as careful as possible so as not to violate PS policies. Ali, please let me know if I''m out of line here and, if so, I apologize in advance!
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So here''s the situation: DH was raised Catholic and I was raised Lutheran. Neither of us have been to church in probably about 10 years. (We''re both 31.) When we got married (over four years ago), we chose to do a non-denominational ceremony in a local B&B, mainly because we didn''t want to "favor" one church or one religion over the other and risk hurting family members'' feelings. Our officiant was a Methodist minister whose wife is a good friend and former co-worker of mine. (Normally, he wouldn''t have done a wedding for people who are not members of his congregation, but he made an exception in our case, due to our special situation and due to the fact that he knows us personally.)

Prior to the wedding, DH told me that his church would not recognize our marriage unless we were married in the Catholic church. (I''m not sure if the Catholic church in general feels this way, or if this is just the opinion of the priest at DH''s particular church.) So in other words, if I ever were to go to church with DH, it would basically be like he was bringing his girlfriend to church as a guest . . . not his wife. Before we got married, I told DH that if it was really important to him to be married in the Catholic church, I would be willing to convert. He said it was not of any importance to him whatsoever, so that''s why we proceeded as we did with the wedding. Another thing to consider here is the fact that DH and I were both married once before. He and his XW did not get married in the Catholic church either, and that was when DH''s priest told him that his marriage was non-existant as far as the Catholic church was concerned. So, when DH and his XW divorced, they did not get an annullment. DH figured this was not necessary since they were not married in the Catholic church, and the Catholic church did not recognize their marriage. Thus, an annullment would be unnecessary, correct? BTW, my first marriage did take place in my church, but the Lutheran church is much more lenient when it comes to issues of marriage/divorce. If DH and I went to my church, our marriage would be recognized just as if it had been done in the Lutheran church. Also, the fact that we were each married once before is not an issue in the Lutheran church (especially since we both had very good reasons for divorcing our former spouses).

Fast-forward to now. DH has been under a lot of stress at work due to a recent promotion, and he had been considering going back to church as a way to cope with this stress. This is something that I encouraged when he brought it up, and I told him that I would be supportive of him if he did decide to do that. He had a doctor''s appointment recently, at which time he explained to the doctor that he has been having these problems handling all this stress, and the doctor also mentioned the possibility that attending church might be helpful. So, DH has decided to try that, which is great.

When he first mentioned returning to church, he was very vague . . . he didn''t know if he wanted to go to his church, or my (Lutheran) church, or to an entirely different church. However, he mentioned to me over the weekend that he would like to go to Mass at his church on Wednesday night, and he''d like for me to come with him.

I feel conflicted about this for a few reasons:

1. As a non-Catholic (in fact, a Protestant), I worry that I might not be very welcome there. Maybe that''s all in my head . . . I really don''t know.

2. I would feel very strange attending a church that does not recognize my marriage. I''m not DH''s girlfriend . . . I''m his wife. I''ve been his wife since July 21, 2005, and I resent being told that my marriage is "invalid" just because it wasn''t performed in the Catholic church. (Again, no offense intended toward anyone who is Catholic. I don''t even know for sure what the Catholic church''s official stance on this is . . . I''m just going by what DH has told me.)

3. A former co-worker of mine, who was let go back in February under not-so-great circumstances, is a very active member of DH''s church. I know she is upset that she was let go, and has a lot of animosity toward our firm (although I agree 100% with their decision to fire her). I have heard that she is upset with me because I didn''t call her or stop by to see her when I found out that she had been let go. However, I didn''t feel that it would be appropriate to do that, since she and I weren''t exactly buddy-buddy outside of work while she WAS employed with our firm, so I''m not sure why she would have expected me to reach out to her. Of course, if I had called and/or stopped by, I would have been in a very awkward position, since I am still employed with this firm and my loyalties need to remain with the firm. I really have NO desire to run into this person, and I''m afraid she might be there.

So, the bottom line is, DH has decided to go to Mass on Wednesday night, and I want to be supportive of his decision to go back to church. But, I don''t know if I should go with him or not for the above reasons. Any suggestions?
 
Honestly, I would tell your DH exactly what you told us. I''m sure he would be understanding, especially since he told you that he didn''t want you to convert when you offered before your wedding.
 
Irishgrrl, I''m sorry you feel stuck in this situation. I''m also sorry that your hubby is so stressed out with work!

If it were me, I would go strictly because it''s important to my husband and he''s looking for support right now to deal with all of the other stress in his life. Whether or not the Catholic church recognizes your marriage or not is irrelevant--you know that you are his wife. He knows you are his wife. That''s all that matters. If I were called my husband''s "girlfriend" by a member of the church I''d probably approach it with some humor. If you get stressed about it, it''s only going to stress hiim out more, which is what you''re trying to avoid.

I also would not worry about the coworker at all. If she approaches you and wants to discuss your firm, I would tell her you don''t feel comfortable discussing it in church, which (I hope) she should respect. You are there with your husband for mass and I would just keep any other stress away from the hubby at this point.
 
Date: 11/9/2009 9:49:12 AM
Author: MonkeyPie
Honestly, I would tell your DH exactly what you told us. I''m sure he would be understanding, especially since he told you that he didn''t want you to convert when you offered before your wedding.
I agree.

And, if you do decide to go to his church with him, I wouldn''t worry about not being welcome. I''m Jewish, and I''ve been to many Catholic and Mormon churches with friends throughout the years. I''ve never felt anything *but* welcome during all of those experiences.
 
I think that you should go with him to support him. Regardless of that fact that the church doesn''t recognize your marriage. I understand how you feel that you are married and it isn''t recognized, but not supporting him in this is not living up to your vows of marriage. You vowed to love and support him, regardless of what the church thinks you took those vows and you are married as far as you are concerned right?

As far as this ex-coworker goes I am pretty sure that it will not be an issue. I doubt that she would start something in church. If she has animosity thats fine, but it isnt as if you are at dinner with her and she can freely start a heated argument about it. You are at church. She should sit and listen. Then when it is over you can go your separate ways.
 
Date: 11/9/2009 9:58:06 AM
Author: Haven

Date: 11/9/2009 9:49:12 AM
Author: MonkeyPie
Honestly, I would tell your DH exactly what you told us. I''m sure he would be understanding, especially since he told you that he didn''t want you to convert when you offered before your wedding.
I agree.

And, if you do decide to go to his church with him, I wouldn''t worry about not being welcome. I''m Jewish, and I''ve been to many Catholic and Mormon churches with friends throughout the years. I''ve never felt anything *but* welcome during all of those experiences.
Ditto. I wouldn''t worry about being welcome if you go. I''ve been to may catholic masses (I''m protestant) and it''s never been an issue.
 
Irishgrrl, I''m sorry this is causing you stress and that your husband is going through a difficult time right now.

I think that you should attend the mass and support your husband. I am a protestant and have attended several Catholic masses with my SO who is Catholic, in a couple different states and outside of the US. I have never once felt unwelcome or uncomfortable. When people go up to receive communion, I just sit back down and wait for them to return. No one has ever commented, given me an odd look, or anything of the sort. These people are there to worship and seek relief like your husband, not to judge or make others feel unwelcome.

The Church''s recognition of your marriage will really have no effect on Wednesday night. I know many Catholics who were married outside of the church and they still introduce their spouse as husband or wife. The official recognition of your marriage really won''t come up unless you bring it up for some reason.

As for the former-coworker issue, I would think Wed. night is not the most popular mass time. What are the chances she will be there and you won''t be able to avoid her? Is she the type to start an argument at church?

I definitely understand your feeling uncomfortable about attending the mass but your DH is going through a rough time and asked your support.
 
I grew up Methodist, but recently converted to Catholicism before my wedding. My husband said it was up to me if I wanted to, and after attending Mass a number of times, I decided I wanted to convert.

One thing I learned going to RCIA (the conversion classes) was that the "awkwardness" of not being catholic in a catholic church is something many many people experience. But I also learned that the church is very accepting of everyone and so happy that you are just there and present. So put your fears aside- they want you there. I struggled with this, so I completely understand how you feel.

About the marriage- my church asked before our wedding if either of us had ever been married before...period. It didn''t matter what church, what ceremony, anything. If we had a marriage certificate, it was a marriage. We hadn''t, but if either of us had, we would have had to go to even more premarital counseling with the priest before the wedding.
I think what your husband may be referring to is that he has not had the "Rite" of a catholic wedding. In the Church, marriage is one of the 7 "Rites" that a person goes through- along with a baptism, 1st Communion, Confirmation...etc. So I think that is what you might mean by it isn''t "recognized." They do know you are married. You are his wife, it''s just not written in the big books that they have to keep.

My suggestion would be to support your husband and go to Mass. It can''t hurt, can only help. It will provide something to think about and talk about outside of all the stressful stuff going on. See how it goes!

And for the woman at work- you''re in a place of worship- if she can''t get over it, that''s too bad. You do your thing, and don''t worry about her. If she''s there, well, who cares? At least in church you don''t have to mingle the whole hour, so I wouldn''t worry about it.
 
Thank you, ladies. You''ve all given me some things to think about.

On one hand, I do want to be as supportive as possible of DH. But on the other hand, I''m REALLY bothered by the fact that the Catholic church refuses to recognize our marriage. I know it shouldn''t matter, since DH and I know we''re married, but for some reason it really irritates me.

I also have issues with the fact that women aren''t allowed to be Catholic priests. I don''t feel comfortable with any religion that appears to consider women to be "less than." Just so this makes more sense, these are all things I learned after I offered to convert prior to our wedding. I''m sure that, if DH had asked me to convert at that time, I would have found these things out during that process and I would have rethought my offer to convert. Also, I''ve since discovered that the Catholic church does recognize marriages between a Catholic and a non-Catholic, as long as those marriages are performed within the Catholic church. So, if DH had really wanted to get married in the Catholic church, we could have done so even though I''m not Catholic. But, like he said at the time, it really didn''t matter to him.

Just out of curiosity, I did some Googling to see if there would be any way that we could get our marriage recognized by the Catholic church (like a vow renewal ceremony or something like that). Evidently, the only way that would be possible is if we BOTH went through the process of having our first marriages annulled. I find it . . . um . . . INTERESTING that the Catholic church would require our first marriages to be annulled, even though the church did not recognize those marriages as valid since they weren''t performed within the Catholic church.
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Hi, Irishgrrrl! Yesterday I reread the thread about the Biden-Palin vice-presidential debate, so you are very fresh in my mind, friend.

I completely agree with everyone who says not to worry about how the Catholic Church views your marriage. It is not up to individuals within the Church to judge you or your marriage. It is simply the doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church that only Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox* marriages are recognized as valid by the Roman Catholic Church. No individuals present have any business (nor should they have any interest) in where you and your husband got married! I have never been asked where I was married when I was in a Roman Catholic Church, but since Roman Catholics do not recognize any marriage rites except their own, technically I-and everyone else on the planet not married in the Roman Catholic Church-is, in their eyes, living in sin!! (My brother, who is not Catholic, was married to a Catholic woman in her church without converting. All he had to do was to agree that their children be brought up within her church.)

Roman Catholics are usually very tolerant people in the United States in 2009. At least after Vatican II they were. We will see whether things change under the present Pope. I loved the sign of peace that was exchanged at the end of a service.


*When the Eastern and Western Churches split during the Great Schism, it was at the level of bishops. Since the Roman Catholic Church recognized the right of a bishop to ordain priests it recognizes the priests of the Eastern Orthodox Churches although it does not recognize Protestant ministers.

AGBF
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As a Catholic, I would be surprised if any church was unwelcoming to you, and the church may not officially recognize your marriage, but that doesn't mean the members won't.
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The only thing that may make you uncomfortable is not being allowed to take communion. If your DH needs your support, I think you should go with him regardless... Don't worry, we don't bite.
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Date: 11/9/2009 10:33:19 AM
Author: AGBF
Hi, Irishgrrrl! Yesterday I reread the thread about the Biden-Palin vice-presidential debate, so you are very fresh in my mind, friend
:-).

I completely agree with everyone who says not to worry about how the Catholic Church views your marriage. It is not up to individuals within the Church to judge you or your marriage. It is simply the doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church that only Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox* marriages are recognized as valid by the Roman Catholic Church. No individuals present have any business (nor should they have any interest) in where you and your husband got married! I have never been asked where I was married when I was in a Roman Catholic Church, but since Roman catholics do not recognize any marriage rites except their own, technically I-and everyone else on the planet not married in the Roman Catholic Church-is, in their eyes, living in sin!! (My brother, who is not Catholic, was married to a Catholic woman in her church without converting. All he had to do was to agree that their children be brought up within her church.)

Roman Catholics are usually very tolerant people in the United States in 2009. At least after Vatican II they were. We will see whether things change under the present Pope. I loved the sign of peace that was exchanged at the end of a service
:-).

*When the Eastern and Western Churches split during the Great Schism, it was at the level of bishops. Since the Roman Catholic Church recognized the right of a bishop to ordain priests it recognizes the priests of the Eastern Orthodox Churches although it does not recognize Protestant ministers.

AGBF
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Hi, Deb! Nice to see you again too!
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What is the "sign of peace" you mentioned? Is that where everyone shakes hands with the people near them at the end of the service and says "peace be with you" or something to that effect? If so, we have that in our church too. DH and I often joke that Lutheran is basically "Catholic lite"! LOL!
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Date: 11/9/2009 10:36:42 AM
Author: anchor31
As a Catholic, I would be surprised if any church was unwelcoming to you, and the church may not officially recognize your marriage, but that doesn''t mean the members won''t.
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The only thing that may make you uncomfortable is not being allowed to take communion. If your DH needs your support, I think you should go with him regardless... Don''t worry, we don''t bite.
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LOL! Thanks, Anchor!
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Actually, I did go to DH''s church once before, but that was years and years ago . . . long before DH and I got together. I think I was married to my first husband at the time. Back then, our office didn''t close on Good Friday (we do now), but we were allowed to leave work to attend a church service if we chose to do so. One of the attorneys here at my firm, and also the former co-worker I mentioned, attended DH''s church at the time and they asked if I wanted to go. So I went, and no one bit me!
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I don''t remember much about it since it was so long ago, but I seem to remember a lot of similarities between that service and my church''s services. I was a little confused by the holy water right inside the door, though . . . wasn''t sure what to do with that! And the kneelers . . . we don''t have those either!
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Date: 11/9/2009 10:38:02 AM
Author: Irishgrrrl




Date: 11/9/2009 10:33:19 AM
Author: AGBF
Hi, Irishgrrrl! Yesterday I reread the thread about the Biden-Palin vice-presidential debate, so you are very fresh in my mind, friend
:-).

I completely agree with everyone who says not to worry about how the Catholic Church views your marriage. It is not up to individuals within the Church to judge you or your marriage. It is simply the doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church that only Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox* marriages are recognized as valid by the Roman Catholic Church. No individuals present have any business (nor should they have any interest) in where you and your husband got married! I have never been asked where I was married when I was in a Roman Catholic Church, but since Roman catholics do not recognize any marriage rites except their own, technically I-and everyone else on the planet not married in the Roman Catholic Church-is, in their eyes, living in sin!! (My brother, who is not Catholic, was married to a Catholic woman in her church without converting. All he had to do was to agree that their children be brought up within her church.)

Roman Catholics are usually very tolerant people in the United States in 2009. At least after Vatican II they were. We will see whether things change under the present Pope. I loved the sign of peace that was exchanged at the end of a service
:-).

*When the Eastern and Western Churches split during the Great Schism, it was at the level of bishops. Since the Roman Catholic Church recognized the right of a bishop to ordain priests it recognizes the priests of the Eastern Orthodox Churches although it does not recognize Protestant ministers.

AGBF
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Hi, Deb! Nice to see you again too!
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What is the 'sign of peace' you mentioned? Is that where everyone shakes hands with the people near them at the end of the service and says 'peace be with you' or something to that effect? If so, we have that in our church too. DH and I often joke that Lutheran is basically 'Catholic lite'! LOL!
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Indeed it is! I was going to go back to answer someone else's posting earlier in the thread. Marriage is not just a "rite", but a sacrament in the Catholic Church. I believe the Catholic Church recognizes seven sacraments, although perhaps I should look that up (I have not). (Some churches have only two or three.)

I also do not believe that either you or your husband would need to have a marriage annulled to be married within the Catholic Church, nor would you need to convert. You would have to tell the priest of a parish where you attended church that you wanted to marry within the church, then he would tell you what classes and counseling you would need to attend in order to do so. Remember: this will not be necessary for you to be accepted as a member of people worshipping at any Catholic service, however!!! I have attended many, many Catholic services. I know all the responses. I am not a Catholic!

AGBF
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in religion you have a few things going on, one is a sense of community, one is a philosophical agreement, one is a spiritual affinity.

There are also different degrees people believe things, even in the same pew of the same church.

The church recognizes that you are LEGALLY married. If my husband and I came in off the street we would be considered husband and wife and so would the two of you. They may not consider you SPIRITUALLY married - but if you don''t agree 100% with the rules and dogma that support that, it seems irrelevant to me. If you did agree 100% with them, you would have married in a Catholic church.

Your own ambivalence toward attending Catholic church will be swayed by your husband''s desire for you to go. The two of you have to find the right balance between him not wanting to go it alone and your hesitancy to go at all. You need to have a discussion with him and in that discussion you need to find out what he is seeking. If all he seeks is community support, the spiritual issues may not be issues at all. If he is looking to realign his philosophical belief to mirror that of the Church, then you may be heading down a road where another wedding takes place in the Catholic church. Find out what he is seeking. As long as you are not being disrespectful, they will welcome you sitting in with them.

You may want to discuss whether you will be tithing the full customary amount every week. I think before you can decide if you''re going to go, you both need to define exactly what it is that you seek. Has he considered finding a therapist or psychologist to talk things through? Or is he seeking spiritual support? And to what degree?
 
Date: 11/9/2009 9:34:45 AM
Author:Irishgrrrl
OK, this is going to be a long story I''m afraid. It kinda involves religion, so I''m going to try to be as careful as possible so as not to violate PS policies. Ali, please let me know if I''m out of line here and, if so, I apologize in advance!
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So here''s the situation: DH was raised Catholic and I was raised Lutheran. Neither of us have been to church in probably about 10 years. (We''re both 31.) When we got married (over four years ago), we chose to do a non-denominational ceremony in a local B&B, mainly because we didn''t want to ''favor'' one church or one religion over the other and risk hurting family members'' feelings. Our officiant was a Methodist minister whose wife is a good friend and former co-worker of mine. (Normally, he wouldn''t have done a wedding for people who are not members of his congregation, but he made an exception in our case, due to our special situation and due to the fact that he knows us personally.)

Prior to the wedding, DH told me that his church would not recognize our marriage unless we were married in the Catholic church. (I''m not sure if the Catholic church in general feels this way, or if this is just the opinion of the priest at DH''s particular church.) So in other words, if I ever were to go to church with DH, it would basically be like he was bringing his girlfriend to church as a guest . . . not his wife. Before we got married, I told DH that if it was really important to him to be married in the Catholic church, I would be willing to convert. He said it was not of any importance to him whatsoever, so that''s why we proceeded as we did with the wedding. Another thing to consider here is the fact that DH and I were both married once before. He and his XW did not get married in the Catholic church either, and that was when DH''s priest told him that his marriage was non-existant as far as the Catholic church was concerned. So, when DH and his XW divorced, they did not get an annullment. DH figured this was not necessary since they were not married in the Catholic church, and the Catholic church did not recognize their marriage. Thus, an annullment would be unnecessary, correct? BTW, my first marriage did take place in my church, but the Lutheran church is much more lenient when it comes to issues of marriage/divorce. If DH and I went to my church, our marriage would be recognized just as if it had been done in the Lutheran church. Also, the fact that we were each married once before is not an issue in the Lutheran church (especially since we both had very good reasons for divorcing our former spouses).

Fast-forward to now. DH has been under a lot of stress at work due to a recent promotion, and he had been considering going back to church as a way to cope with this stress. This is something that I encouraged when he brought it up, and I told him that I would be supportive of him if he did decide to do that. He had a doctor''s appointment recently, at which time he explained to the doctor that he has been having these problems handling all this stress, and the doctor also mentioned the possibility that attending church might be helpful. So, DH has decided to try that, which is great.

When he first mentioned returning to church, he was very vague . . . he didn''t know if he wanted to go to his church, or my (Lutheran) church, or to an entirely different church. However, he mentioned to me over the weekend that he would like to go to Mass at his church on Wednesday night, and he''d like for me to come with him.

I feel conflicted about this for a few reasons:

1. As a non-Catholic (in fact, a Protestant), I worry that I might not be very welcome there. Maybe that''s all in my head . . . I really don''t know.

2. I would feel very strange attending a church that does not recognize my marriage. I''m not DH''s girlfriend . . . I''m his wife. I''ve been his wife since July 21, 2005, and I resent being told that my marriage is ''invalid'' just because it wasn''t performed in the Catholic church. (Again, no offense intended toward anyone who is Catholic. I don''t even know for sure what the Catholic church''s official stance on this is . . . I''m just going by what DH has told me.)

3. A former co-worker of mine, who was let go back in February under not-so-great circumstances, is a very active member of DH''s church. I know she is upset that she was let go, and has a lot of animosity toward our firm (although I agree 100% with their decision to fire her). I have heard that she is upset with me because I didn''t call her or stop by to see her when I found out that she had been let go. However, I didn''t feel that it would be appropriate to do that, since she and I weren''t exactly buddy-buddy outside of work while she WAS employed with our firm, so I''m not sure why she would have expected me to reach out to her. Of course, if I had called and/or stopped by, I would have been in a very awkward position, since I am still employed with this firm and my loyalties need to remain with the firm. I really have NO desire to run into this person, and I''m afraid she might be there.

So, the bottom line is, DH has decided to go to Mass on Wednesday night, and I want to be supportive of his decision to go back to church. But, I don''t know if I should go with him or not for the above reasons. Any suggestions?
Go with your husband to church.Im sure the support will be important to him.I believe you are worrying about situations before they arise.If you run into the ex co-worker, which may or may not happen ...if it does then be polite and say hello and wish her a pleasant day and thats it...no more should be expected.The priest isnt going to check your identification for membership and Im sure you will be welcomed as many visitors are.I understand that you do feel resentment about the non-marrige issue,but you are just visiting for now and supporting your husband is important so for now maybe tolerance for a belief you dont agree with might be the best avenue.Your feelings about attending his church are valid and maybe attending will help you either strengthen them or alieviate them.Good luck to helping with your husbands stress...I know my faith and place of worship is always helpful in times of stress.
 
Lapsed Catholic here! I ditto Deb on everything. I also did not get married in the Catholic church for many of the same reasons you list and more. (It''s hard to be Catholic when you''re a pro-choice feminist who doesn''t think there''s anything wrong with being gay!
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However, the fact that my marriage is not recognized by the Catholic church doesn''t bother me in the least. I mean if I believed in it all I would have gotten married in the Catholic church to begin with, you know? I still go to church every now and then for my nieces'' and nephews'' baptisms/First Communions, etc. It''s not as if a priest or parishioner is going to say "Wife? Oh you must mean girlfriend since you didn''t get married in the Catholic church." Kind of like I''m not going to tell the priest or parishioners that I don''t agree with the church''s views on women.
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If you have a problem with your husband wanting to be a part of a religion you disagree with, that''s a whole other issue. But if you don''t mind him going and want to support him, it really won''t be a big deal if you go with him! And I''m betting there won''t be very many people at a Wednesday night mass, so I doubt you''ll run into your former coworker.
 
Deb ~ That''s interesting that we may not need to get our first marriages annulled. I hope you''re right! If so, and if I wouldn''t have to convert, then I''d have no problem at all with doing a Catholic ceremony to renew our vows, or whatever would need to be done.

Cehra ~ Actually, he is exploring the possibility of counseling in addition to going to church. In fact, he has gone so far as to find a counselor who accepts our insurance, so hopefully he''ll have an appointment with that person soon. I hear you, though, about talking to him to find out exactly what he''s looking for. I think that would be a helpful conversation for both of us. And as far as agreeing with the Catholic church''s rules and dogma: I don''t agree with ALL of them, but I do agree with many of them. As I mentioned to Deb above, I would have no problem getting (re)married in the Catholic church, if that is important to DH. Had I known that it was an option when we got married, we may have done it at that time . . . or we may not have anyway, since it wasn''t of any great importance to DH. It''s just that we didn''t really know that it was an option when we got married, without going through the process of me converting (which, from what I understand, is QUITE a process).

Jewelerman ~ Yes, I definitely AM worrying about situations before they arise, at least with regard to my former co-worker. She tends to be rather nasty sometimes, and I wouldn''t put it past her to say something inappropriate. But honestly, she''s the least of my concerns. As far as the other two issues (possibly being out-of-place in a Catholic church since I''m not Catholic, and having issues with the fact that the Catholic church doesn''t recognize our marriage), well those two situations HAVE arisen, in that DH has asked me to go to Mass with him and I''m trying to decide if I should go or not. And I believe that I''m being tolerant of a religion that is not my own, simply by CONSIDERING going to Mass with him. If I were intolerant of beliefs differing from my own, I would have just categorically said "no" when he asked. Please don''t take this the wrong way . . . I don''t think you were necessarily saying that I''m not being tolerant. I just want to avoid even the appearance of being intolerant of other religions. Just because the Catholic church may not be the right church FOR ME doesn''t mean that everything they believe in is 100% wrong, and I fully respect those who practice Catholicism.
 
Date: 11/9/2009 11:01:58 AM
Author: thing2of2
Lapsed Catholic here! I ditto Deb on everything. I also did not get married in the Catholic church for many of the same reasons you list and more. (It''s hard to be Catholic when you''re a pro-choice feminist who doesn''t think there''s anything wrong with being gay!
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However, the fact that my marriage is not recognized by the Catholic church doesn''t bother me in the least. I mean if I believed in it all I would have gotten married in the Catholic church to begin with, you know? I still go to church every now and then for my nieces'' and nephews'' baptisms/First Communions, etc. It''s not as if a priest or parishioner is going to say ''Wife? Oh you must mean girlfriend since you didn''t get married in the Catholic church.'' Kind of like I''m not going to tell the priest or parishioners that I don''t agree with the church''s views on women.
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If you have a problem with your husband wanting to be a part of a religion you disagree with, that''s a whole other issue. But if you don''t mind him going and want to support him, it really won''t be a big deal if you go with him! And I''m betting there won''t be very many people at a Wednesday night mass, so I doubt you''ll run into your former coworker.
OK, Thing, the highlighted portion just totally summed up my issues with the Catholic church! I''m glad to hear that I''m not the only one who has this viewpoint!
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I have no problem with DH being Catholic. It''s how he was raised, the rest of his family is Catholic, and I respect that. I also know that he sees women as equals, believes that abortion should be legal, and doesn''t think there''s anything wrong with being gay. So it''s not like his beliefs and my beliefs are so different. Like Cehra said in her post above, there are differing degrees of belief within the same church, and even within the same pew. DH is I guess what you''d call a "liberal Catholic" for lack of a better term!
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As anchor said above - the ''church'' as a denomination may not offically recognize your marriage, but that is a formality. The actual people that make up this church will see you as husband and wife. Imo, that''s what really counts. I say give it a shot. At least once, and just see how it goes. Tell your dh your apprehensions before hand, and if you feel uncomfortable, and don''t wish to go again, he may be more understanding. But ya, don''t know til you try!
 
I disagree that he would not have to have his first marriage annulled. If that were true then I would not have had a priest calling me some 20 years after my divorce to a protestant, who was now trying to marry a catholic in the church. We were both protestants, and married in the protestant church. He was now dating a catholic and needed an annullment per his priest.

YMMV, as obviously the priest has the final say.
 
I am Protestant, my DH Catholic and DD is Catholic. I never converted or wanted to convert. Neither did DH. DD was baptized in the Catholic church because MIL is an interfering PITA. DD goes to both catholic and protestant masses and I leave it up to her to decide which religion she wishes to follow.

As far as I am concerned I grew up in my church and that is what I love and MIL has no power over what religion I desire to embrace. Religion is a personal decision.
 

Date:
11/9/2009 11:14:53 AM
Author: Irishgrrrl

Deb ~ That's interesting that we may not need to get our first marriages annulled. I hope you're right! If so, and if I wouldn't have to convert, then I'd have no problem at all with doing a Catholic ceremony to renew our vows, or whatever would need to be done.
Irishgrrrl-

I am pretty sure that no annulments are needed since, in the eyes on the Roman Catholic Church, no other true marriages existed! Only real marriages (i.e. marriages performed by the Roman Catholic Church) need to be anulled; that is just common sense, right? I should, also, share with you that I have helped a friend try to get her (Roman Catholic) marriage annulled, so I know what I am talking about. (In the end my friend became tired of waiting and was married by a Unitarian-Universalist minister. When her annulment came through-and it did- she chose not to remarry within the Catholic Church although she had the right to do so. She said that she didn't feel her marriage by the Unitarian-Universalist minister had been a "second class" marriage.)

I do want to point out that, in the eyes of the Roman Catholic Church, you would not be "renewing your vows", but getting married, however. This may put you off. You cannot take it personally. It is simply based on Catholic doctrine. In the eyes of the Roman Catholic Church only their marriage (and Eastern Orthodox marriage) is legitimate. So you and your husband would be going to embark on marriage. You would probably be told to enroll in pre-marital counseling since the Catholic Church does not recognize divorce and wants marriages performed within it to stay together. If you can swallow that, you need not convert.

As I have said (probably ad nauseum), though, you absolutely do not need to marry within the Catholic Church in order to worship in a Catholic Church! You will be welcomed anyway. Wait and see!

AGBF
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My mom was raised catholic and she got engaged to an episcopalian boy who agreed to marry in the catholic church and raise the children catholic. They were going to the pre-marriage counseling and he was made aware of some of the (now possibly antiquated? not sure) rules he would have to agree to and one of them was that if there was a problem during childbirth and a choice had to be made between the mother and the child, that the catholic church''s stance was to save the child. He could not, would not agree to that, the church refused to marry them, my grandmother refused to attend a marriage that wasn''t in a catholic church, they were forced to separate. (she ended up marrying him 20 years later but by then he''d turned into a raging alcoholic and she was too blind to see anything other than their peaches and cream "reunited and it feels so good" 2nd chance) But I digress... my father was raised LDS and when my parents got married both were disgruntled and got married at a UU church (which my grandmother did condescend to attend). I was raised flower child free and neither ever went back to church on a regular basis... my mother however did ask for a priest on her deathbed. In the end she needed that from the church. She asked if she was forgiven - like three times. She didn''t believe it could be so easy lol "Are you sure?" it''s a little funny to hear your dying mom continue to ask that - mom what did you DO?? haha My dad doesn''t practice LDS at all but when he had my brother 18 years ago he suddenly wanted him to be raised in that church so he has and my brother is planning to go on mission etc.

I think for most of us our spirituality is an evolution, even if we remain in the same faith for a lifetime. What you are going through right now is another step in it and I think the more you can make these steps with your husband, hand in hand, the better off you will both be and the fewer issues may pop up ugly heads in the future :)
 
Date: 11/9/2009 11:47:18 AM
Author: Cehrabehra
My mom was raised catholic and she got engaged to an episcopalian boy who agreed to marry in the catholic church and raise the children catholic. They were going to the pre-marriage counseling and he was made aware of some of the (now possibly antiquated? not sure) rules he would have to agree to and one of them was that if there was a problem during childbirth and a choice had to be made between the mother and the child, that the catholic church''s stance was to save the child. He could not, would not agree to that, the church refused to marry them, my grandmother refused to attend a marriage that wasn''t in a catholic church, they were forced to separate. (she ended up marrying him 20 years later but by then he''d turned into a raging alcoholic and she was too blind to see anything other than their peaches and cream ''reunited and it feels so good'' 2nd chance) But I digress... my father was raised LDS and when my parents got married both were disgruntled and got married at a UU church (which my grandmother did condescend to attend). I was raised flower child free and neither ever went back to church on a regular basis... my mother however did ask for a priest on her deathbed. In the end she needed that from the church. She asked if she was forgiven - like three times. She didn''t believe it could be so easy lol ''Are you sure?'' it''s a little funny to hear your dying mom continue to ask that - mom what did you DO?? haha My dad doesn''t practice LDS at all but when he had my brother 18 years ago he suddenly wanted him to be raised in that church so he has and my brother is planning to go on mission etc.

I think for most of us our spirituality is an evolution, even if we remain in the same faith for a lifetime. What you are going through right now is another step in it and I think the more you can make these steps with your husband, hand in hand, the better off you will both be and the fewer issues may pop up ugly heads in the future :)
Whoa! That seems awfully harsh! I had no idea that the Catholic church expected that. I know . . . absolutely, unequivocally KNOW . . . that DH would NEVER, EVER agree to that under any circumstances. So, if that rule is still in place, I guess we couldn''t have been married in the Catholic church anyway.
 
my father was raised catholic. my mother is the daughter of a southern baptist.
i was not baptised.....and still am not.
i attended catholic services with my catholic grandmother and even took communion.....what did i know but to do what my grandmother told me to do?
i went to many protestant churches.
i view a church as 1-a community and 2-a place to go for meditation/contemplation
spirituatlity is my personal business. just because i walk in a door does not mean i adhere to all the principles of a group.
my first husband was raised catholic. his family very catholic. i attended midnight christmas eve mass with them many times. the congregation is large and the priest just isn''t going to delve into your situation unless you or your husband invite him to do so.
it did not bother me nor would it bother me to attend a church that didn''t recognize my marriage as in actuality it is that piece of paper/contract i signed when we got the license that is the legal binding contract recognized by civil law.

go. support your husband. cross bridges when you get there, not before. there are some nice aspects to mass. while i don''t approve of many of the catholic church positions or its history, while in mexico i went to mass 3 sundays in a row and felt a deep connection with the people and with my long deceased grandmother.

again, go.... at least this time. take it a service at a time, an event at a time. talk with your husband and let him know your feelings but give him your support now and give it a try. going once does not commit you to going for life.

mz
 
Date: 11/9/2009 10:45:24 AM
Author: AGBF

Date: 11/9/2009 10:38:02 AM
Author: Irishgrrrl





Date: 11/9/2009 10:33:19 AM
Author: AGBF
Hi, Irishgrrrl! Yesterday I reread the thread about the Biden-Palin vice-presidential debate, so you are very fresh in my mind, friend
:-).

I completely agree with everyone who says not to worry about how the Catholic Church views your marriage. It is not up to individuals within the Church to judge you or your marriage. It is simply the doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church that only Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox* marriages are recognized as valid by the Roman Catholic Church. No individuals present have any business (nor should they have any interest) in where you and your husband got married! I have never been asked where I was married when I was in a Roman Catholic Church, but since Roman catholics do not recognize any marriage rites except their own, technically I-and everyone else on the planet not married in the Roman Catholic Church-is, in their eyes, living in sin!! (My brother, who is not Catholic, was married to a Catholic woman in her church without converting. All he had to do was to agree that their children be brought up within her church.)

Roman Catholics are usually very tolerant people in the United States in 2009. At least after Vatican II they were. We will see whether things change under the present Pope. I loved the sign of peace that was exchanged at the end of a service
:-).

*When the Eastern and Western Churches split during the Great Schism, it was at the level of bishops. Since the Roman Catholic Church recognized the right of a bishop to ordain priests it recognizes the priests of the Eastern Orthodox Churches although it does not recognize Protestant ministers.

AGBF
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Hi, Deb! Nice to see you again too!
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What is the ''sign of peace'' you mentioned? Is that where everyone shakes hands with the people near them at the end of the service and says ''peace be with you'' or something to that effect? If so, we have that in our church too. DH and I often joke that Lutheran is basically ''Catholic lite''! LOL!
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Indeed it is! I was going to go back to answer someone else''s posting earlier in the thread. Marriage is not just a ''rite'', but a sacrament in the Catholic Church. I believe the Catholic Church recognizes seven sacraments, although perhaps I should look that up (I have not). (Some churches have only two or three.)

I also do not believe that either you or your husband would need to have a marriage annulled to be married within the Catholic Church, nor would you need to convert. You would have to tell the priest of a parish where you attended church that you wanted to marry within the church, then he would tell you what classes and counseling you would need to attend in order to do so. Remember: this will not be necessary for you to be accepted as a member of people worshipping at any Catholic service, however!!! I have attended many, many Catholic services. I know all the responses. I am not a Catholic!

AGBF
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I''ve got a case of the Mondays. Yes, marriage is a SACRAMENT- not a rite. The Catholic church has 7 SACRAMENTS...ooops.

I tend to view things a bit from the "left" as well, so it was a bit difficult to understand a few things that were going on in the Catholic church. However, I go to a pretty "progressive" Catholic church, where the views post Vatican II are very much so enforced. I was able to reconcile my differences with my priest in some counseling, so I''m at peace with myself and my church.

I also go to a Catholic church with no kneelers, so its really comfortable for those who might not know what to do. Which, by the way, as a non-Catholic, you are still invited to kneel when others kneel, cross yourself, all that stuff that Catholics do...just not take communion since that is a Sacrament of the church.

From what I understand, you would need to have your first marriages annulled in order to have yours "recognized" by the church. Here''s sort of how it was explained to me:
Your husband was baptized Catholic. That church has a record of him being baptized, and whenever he goes through ANY sacrament, it is recorded in their book of members. There are 7 spaces in that book- 1 for each sacrament. As he completes those sacraments, they are recorded. So what I mean by your marriage being "recognized" by the church- its all in doctrine and formalities. It does not mean that you can''t still be members together or anything like that. Shoot- you could even go get communion and no one would even know the difference if you didn''t tell them- its all about what you believe in.
 
Wow, I started writing this response before I had to fly off to my husband''s job to drop off something he needed and look at all the responses and such confusion! but our Church is strict and complex and definitely slow to progress at least in comparison to how progress happens in society.

Irish, I think it''s wonderful that your husband is feeling the call back to a life of faith to help him to deal with his stress. We believe that these sticky points in our lives are actually opportunities to grow closer to God, to lean on Him more for His unconditional love for us and guidance, and they are the situations that help us to grow as people of faith, to become stronger as individuals. Having said all that.....

I think the confusion might be in your lack of distinction between the Church as a whole (the Catholic practicing world wide body of people governed by the Vatican and the Holy See) vs. your husband''s individual parish. While there most definitely are laws, Canon Law to be specific, that govern the practices of our Church''s people as a whole; individual parishes- it''s people and their practices are very different.

Canon Law? Yes, they exist and you can''t get around them. They are strict and they are not open to debate, discussion or rule bending; but the general practice of most parishes, their pastor''s and their parishioners is usually more "human", more accepting and in fact more Christ-like. Please do go with your husband to Mass on Wednesday night if that''s what you''d really like to do. Our Church is very accepting of all people of faith who come to worship. Believe me when I tell you that no one will care how you got married. How would they even know? You are married and that''s all that matters. It is no human''s right to judge you or your circumstance. Only God can judge. That''s an important thing to remember.

As far as Canon Law goes, yes, we have seven sacraments, Matrimony being number five. While it is true that you and your DH are not in a "sacramental marriage", you are most certainly in a "Christian marriage" since you were married by a Methodist minister. This point of controversy has been brought up in Retrouvaille because many couples in our group are in their second marriages. The Church does recognize with respect- the marriage of a Catholic and a Christian, or the marriage of two Catholics in a faith outside of Catholicism as a "Christian marriage".

Next, your husband has no need to seek an annulment for his first marriage because he and his ex were not married in the Catholic Church. The Church and it''s Tribunal have no interest in dissolving outside marriages.
Again, it''s not that your husband''s first marriage never happened, it wasn''t a Catholic sacramental marriage and therefore can not be dissolved by Tribunal annulment.

I''ve been surrounded by nuns and priests for my entire life. I was educated in the Catholic school system for twelve years, I worked for the Church as a teenager, we''ve had a priest in our family for years, my husband and I have worked in ministry for the last ten years and we count our Retrouvaille priests as our friends and cherished advisors. Having said all that? Even Retrouvaille itself was born in the late 70''s as a call by the Pope worldwide to help save troubled marriages. The program was written by Catholic people, but since then has broadened to accept most certainly ALL Christians, but also people of all faith orientations. Heck, I was keeping the statistics for our community for years and I can tell for fact that we have had every combination of faith backgrounds that you can think of on our weekends including the most remote you can think of. The only thing the non-Catholic couples can do, if they choose, is skip the closing Mass. But we welcome every-one.
The only thing I suggest that you make a decision for yourself about- is considering that all Catholics receive the sacrament of First Holy Communion which entitles them to take Communion at Mass. Since you''ve not received this sacrament as a Lutheran, you decide for yourself what you should do about that. And if you choose to skip Communion, and I don''t why anyone would ask you this, but if they do? You didn''t fast for the hour before Mass. Period. But that''s the point too. Our faith orientations, the religions we were born into, the religions we choose to practice, all well and good; but it''s your personal relationship with God and it''s your conscience that makes you the quality of person that you are.

Last for now, I could write about this forever because this is one of my favorite discussions to have. I don''t think there''s a living Catholic on the planet who accepts every single solitary rule, law and belief of the Church.
It''s very strict. Don''t let that keep you from participating in the practice of faith. Does the Church look down on women? No they don''t, they just subscribe to the Biblical interpretation of order within the family. But please remember that the Bible was written thousands of years ago and it''s up to the Holy See and future Vatican Councils to change that. Will it change in our life times? No it probably won''t since the Church moves at slower than a snail''s pace. Will the Church ever accept homosexuality as a life style? No, it probably won''t ever, but that doesn''t mean that we can''t love and support our gay friends as children of God and human beings that are worthy of our love and support. The good Lord gave us "free will", the right and ability to make decisions for ourselves. Just use that right as fairly, justly and always as respectfully as you possibly can and I don''t think He will ever be disappointed in any of us.

Go! Worship, pray, sing and support your husband. That, I am sure, will make God proud! The most important thing in life is not HOW you believe, but THAT you believe!


 

Date:
11/9/2009 11:47:18 AM
Author: Cehrabehra

My mom was raised catholic and she got engaged to an episcopalian boy who agreed to marry in the catholic church and raise the children catholic. They were going to the pre-marriage counseling and he was made aware of some of the (now possibly antiquated? not sure) rules he would have to agree to and one of them was that if there was a problem during childbirth and a choice had to be made between the mother and the child, that the catholic church's stance was to save the child.

Hi, Sara :-). Although my mother had renounced her own Greek Catholic religion many years before I was born, that was one point of Catholic belief/practice that she could never quite get over. It continued to gall her that her church would have such an atavistic policy even after she had renounced her ties with her church! She had found an OB/GYN here in Connecticut, but then he took on a young partner and that partner was Roman Catholic. Knowing the stance of the Roman Catholic Church, my mother was uneasy about going into labor and ending up with the new doctor. So she confronted him about this policy before she went into labor! She had one small child at home at this point and was expecting her second, so she was even more galled to think that any church would dare to force her to desert a toddler at home on the off chance of saving a new baby! Luckily her doctor agreed to abide by her wishes and no emergency choices had to be made anyway!

AGBF
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Date: 11/9/2009 11:52:11 AM
Author: Irishgrrrl


Date: 11/9/2009 11:47:18 AM
Author: Cehrabehra
My mom was raised catholic and she got engaged to an episcopalian boy who agreed to marry in the catholic church and raise the children catholic. They were going to the pre-marriage counseling and he was made aware of some of the (now possibly antiquated? not sure) rules he would have to agree to and one of them was that if there was a problem during childbirth and a choice had to be made between the mother and the child, that the catholic church's stance was to save the child. He could not, would not agree to that, the church refused to marry them, my grandmother refused to attend a marriage that wasn't in a catholic church, they were forced to separate. (she ended up marrying him 20 years later but by then he'd turned into a raging alcoholic and she was too blind to see anything other than their peaches and cream 'reunited and it feels so good' 2nd chance) But I digress... my father was raised LDS and when my parents got married both were disgruntled and got married at a UU church (which my grandmother did condescend to attend). I was raised flower child free and neither ever went back to church on a regular basis... my mother however did ask for a priest on her deathbed. In the end she needed that from the church. She asked if she was forgiven - like three times. She didn't believe it could be so easy lol 'Are you sure?' it's a little funny to hear your dying mom continue to ask that - mom what did you DO?? haha My dad doesn't practice LDS at all but when he had my brother 18 years ago he suddenly wanted him to be raised in that church so he has and my brother is planning to go on mission etc.

I think for most of us our spirituality is an evolution, even if we remain in the same faith for a lifetime. What you are going through right now is another step in it and I think the more you can make these steps with your husband, hand in hand, the better off you will both be and the fewer issues may pop up ugly heads in the future :)
Whoa! That seems awfully harsh! I had no idea that the Catholic church expected that. I know . . . absolutely, unequivocally KNOW . . . that DH would NEVER, EVER agree to that under any circumstances. So, if that rule is still in place, I guess we couldn't have been married in the Catholic church anyway.
That thought is way off base. The life of the mother is always considered first.

 
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