Sterilization of the Disabled ...

[kenny]

At first, for me, this smacked of what Nazis did.

But, after listening to this NYT's link's in-depth 24-minute audio I realize that this topic is not so clear cut and black and white as I previously thought.

Despite Bans, Disabled Women Are Still Being Sterilized in Europe (Published 2023)

Governments have declared the practice a human rights violation. But they have made exceptions that are divisive among parents, doctors and social workers.

www.nytimes.com

 

[HGar]

My mother is the baby of 10 children. Her older sister became a ward of the state in the 1940’s as a very young child after a seizure rendered her brain damaged. My grandmother faithfully visited her until the 1970’s when she was moved to an institution and my Grandmother was not told where. In the late 1980’s we were then informed that (a) my aunt had passed away some time in the last 10yrs and (b) someone had relations with her resulting in the birth of a son. As a child of a ward of the state this boy was given up for adoption at birth. My grandmother never met him as he was adopted in another state however he had tracked another of my Uncles who lived in the same state so he at least met part of his extended family.
He would now be in his late forties / early 50’s but we know nothing else about him. I’m not sure the trauma my late aunt would have gone through - both through the sexual experience / assault (we don’t know if it was consensual or not but as she was brain damaged it would seem assault) then to give birth but maybe sterilisation may have stopped at least one form of trauma.

This was Australia in the 1940’s to the early 2000’s when “mental institutions” were pretty much closed down. Now we have group homes within the community overseen by 24hr staff.

 

[kenny]

@HGar Thank you for sharing your heart wrenching account.
I'm so sorry.
This must all be so painful for you.

Human rights for the mentally disabled (or whatever is currently the correct/woke/not-insulting/non-demeaning term, since it's nearly impossible to keep up these days) is just a massive field of no-win landmines.

I'm at a loss for what is right and wrong here.
On one hand I agree that each individual has the inalienable right to choose what is right for them.
But what if an individual is truly not mentally capable of understanding and, therefore, deciding?

Does the power to decide shift from that individual to his/her caregivers or family/loved ones, or doctor, or government, etc.?
I've no clue.

UGH!

But I must say, this carefully-considered and sensitively-produced 21-minute audio (podcast?) really opened my eyes ... and breaks my heart.

 

[seaurchin]

I haven't watched the podcast yet but so sorry to hear, @HGar . You've probably already thought of this but if you join 23 and me or another DNA forum, there's always a chance of connecting with lost family that way.

This reminds me of someone I knew who had a son with Down syndrome. The son would be in his mid-fifties now. Anyway, he had to give his consent to get the vasectomy his mother wanted him to get, and answer questions so it was clear to the doctor that he understood what it meant. I don't think he should have been left to possibly father a child but then that's a slippery slope.

 

[kenny]

... very slippery slope, indeed!

 

[Lookinagain]

I haven't watched the podcast yet but so sorry to hear, @HGar . You've probably already thought of this but if you join 23 and me or another DNA forum, there's always a chance of connecting with lost family that way.

This reminds me of someone I knew who had a son with Down syndrome. The son would be in his mid-fifties now. Anyway, he had to give his consent to get the vasectomy his mother wanted him to get, and answer questions so it was clear to the doctor that he understood what it meant. I don't think he should have been left to possibly father a child but then that's a slippery slope.

I guess to me, I'd want to know if the person was mentally capable of actually consenting to the sexual act that could cause the pregnancy, and was cognitively aware that it may produce a child that they could parent. If the answer is no to both, then I guess I understand the motive behind this. It does sound horrible, but I have very mixed feelings about it and can understand both sides.

 

[Rfisher]

Yep. Mixed feelings. Grey area. A lot of what if’s. A huge grey area. Can see both sides. Can also bring up a bunch of scenarios to expand on ‘if they can consent’ to wanting sex - to truly not understanding what it means to be pregnant, not understanding what it means to give birth, and not understand what it is to take care/provide for the child(ren), and that child’s environment growing up.

I have witnessed the above same scenario fold out in a young girl thru ages of 16-25 (and the child she bore) go very very awry - multiple forms of abuse - but can understand someone living the scenario /having a relative living the scenario being appalled at my words, disagreeing with me & calling me a nasty name for being a fence sitter.
I’m ok with that.

 

[yssie]

I read this article shortly before I saw your post here Kenny.

My take on the broader topic of reproduction is… Unforgiving, I suppose. I think there are too many people who are supposedly of sound mind who shouldn’t be having or raising children. I don’t believe that a human with the capacity to become a parent should automatically have the right to do so.

Now actually gating that “privilege” in a sensible, equitable, reasonable way… Taking background and beliefs and age and health and support structure and finances into account in sensible and equitable and reasonable ways… Completely impossible. So in practice it’s just a mental safety blanket when I read about issues like this. And maybe also a hypothetical platform from which to bleat my opinions.

I don’t have any answers at all. But I do believe this is one slice of a much bigger “topic”.

Edit: I have a severely mentally incapacitated cousin in India. I don’t know if he’s capable of having children or not - he doesn’t have any. His parents and extended family are responsible for his health and welfare and will be his caretakers his entire life… In my family he’s an anomaly, there are extremely few people who have disabilities they were born with. Plenty of people with disabilities thanks to #Life. I’ll leave the whys of that unexplored. If he’d had children the caretaking burden would have fallen fully on his family.

I’m sure that my family would feel that it’s a privilege to even be in a societal position where the cultural mores of a disabled individual’s right to reproduction are considered and discussed.

 

[seaurchin]

As with my last post, this is from years ago, but fwiw and as an fyi, in a group home I knew of, they would put the mentally handicapped girls on the pill, just give it to them along with their daily vitamins.

 

[Piper70]

Not a gray area for me. If someone has the intellectual capacity of a minor, they can’t consent to sex at any age IMO and therefore can’t make the decision about a possible pregnancy. The pill and IUD aren't foolproof. And if the potential parents can’t fully take care of themselves, how could they raise a child? It would fall on the extended family.
I had 2 children and even as a SAHM, it was hard. And as a 55 yo grandmother, I am exhausted after babysitting and could not fathom having to raise a child at the age. I’m all for these adults finding love but the responsibility of raising a child is a different ball game.