Home Single-gender education - what do you think?

[KimberlyH]

Date: 2/29/2008 11:29:32 PM
Author: Fancy605

Date: 2/29/2008 3:32:36 PM
Author: KimberlyH

Date: 2/29/2008 2:55:48 PM



One of the biggest trends in I see in education now is the theme of ''College for All.'' I think this mentality is just another nail in the coffin of our education system. I go into 1st grade classrooms filled with students who are already concerned about what college they are going to attend. I am all for students having ambition and determination, but we are teaching students that there is something wrong with being anything other than a college graduate and I think it''s ridiculous. This mentality equates becoming something other than a college grad -- a construction worker, an automobile mechanic, a plumber -- a failure, when, in fact, these are all admirable career paths that are vital to our society.

Wow, what area of the world is this? where I teach, my middle schoolers are very uneducated about college. A lot of them have no interest in continuing their education past high school (and some don''t even want that. We have a graduation rate of like 65% in the county where I work). A lot of them have the ''I can work in the mill like mom'' mentality. Of course, that isn''t always a bad thing. College isn''t for everyone. It just isn''t. I don''t understand the push for ''college for everyone'' because not everyone needs something like that to be satisfied. I wish my kids knew that they COULD have it if they wanted it with all the scholarship opportunities out there. A lot of mine say they want to go to college because they associate it with partying (and drinking) and sports, both of which are considered cool to our 8th graders, and neither of which are specifically good reasons for attending college. Of course all the boys think they will be playing football for UGA or GA Tech. But in reality a good many of them will end up satisfied to begin working full time straight out of high school and to skip the college thing all together. I just want them to know that the CAN find a college that will fit their lives and that they CAN find financial aid should they want it because a lot of them don''t go simply because they don''t see any way that they can go.

Hi Fancy,

I live in a suburb of San Diego and the push for college here is immense. Third graders go on field trips to college campuses; several elementary schools use colleges as their class mascots, they know the college chants, say them on a daily basis, they write reports on where they intend to go to college and why. There are poster boards that say things like "College Bound: Save A Seat For Me!" hanging in classrooms, etc.

You raise an interesting point about students needing to want it. My sister is brilliant, she is well read, thoughtful, enjoys hearing all viewpoints. The woman can''t focus to save her soul. Her approach to life is quite lackadaisical. She dropped out of college twice. College most certainly wasn''t for her. She is content doing what she does, and I think that''s awesome. She lives a nice life and is satisfied. I think it''s important to help those students who want it, and are willing to work for it, but to say everyone can and should go to college just doesn''t make sense. My sister would tell you she never belonged there in the first place.

 

[KimberlyH]

Date: 3/1/2008 9:51:54 AM
Author: phoenixgirl

So perhaps another part of the problem is that so much depends upon the teachers you have along the way. Kimberly, you mentioned some of the morons getting an MEd . . . well, at my school, we hire teachers who aren''t certified all the time. Imagine how many more morons are out there who aren''t even getting into MEd programs but are still in front of the classroom! One-third of the teachers in my department were hired uncertified (they must get certified in three years). And twice that many have been hired uncertified over the last five years and have left the profession by now. One coworker, for example, always looks clueless when we discuss things at lunch that every English teacher should know: classic literature, rules of grammar and writing, etc. Her first year she was a cart teacher, and for some reason thought it would be appropriate and helpful to make a big poster with pictures of her friends and family (her in a bar with a beer in her hand, etc.) and mount it to the front of the cart she took from room to room. I think this was an example of something her students were supposed to do because as far as I can tell her class consists mainly of making posters and memory boxes. Anyway, as if this weren''t bad enough, she labelled the poster in big letters, ''WHAT [her first name] RELY''S ON''

And this was on her cart for MONTHS! Her first name, inappropriate pictures, and proof that she can''t conjugate a verb! Finally I couldn''t take it anymore, so I mentioned casually to a teacher with a big mouth, ''Oh, I just noticed that ''relies'' is spelled wrong on her cart. Do you think I should tell her?'' The poster was gone by the end of the day.

I think it''s great that schools are trying out different pedagogical philosophies because I see so many teachers who don''t know the basics of their content area, let alone the different theories on learning styles and differences. So it can only be a good thing. I don''t think any approach is ''one size fits all,'' or even ''one size fits all boys and another size fits all girls.'' But I''m glad that there are still people out there trying to evaluate and diagnose the ills of our system.

Phoenix,

I was discussing the calibur of teachers with my husband the other day and his point was if we don''t allow the people who frighten me to teach the classrooms will be empty. My district doesn''t allow uncertified teachers in the classroom, thank goodness, but that doesn''t mean they are all good at what they do.

Our education system is in desperate need of an overhall. It saddens me so.

 

[Fancy605]

It does need an overhaul. That''s what frustrates me so about being a teacher. I love my content area. I love instruction. I am getting to where I am an effective disciplinarian (not just adequate like I was my 1st and 2nd year). I love the kids (even the ones I don''t like all the time). But, I do not love how our system is so trend driven. I actually do not understand the purpose of public education anymore. For example, I know my school''s mission statement, but I really don''t think that it is anything but a bunch of words that sound good. Our school lately has become obsessed with what teachers have on the walls. We have an evaluation that consists primarily of what is on our walls and in our lesson plan books and has absolutely nothing to do with instruction and classroom management. So, a teacher who does nothing but sit at his/her desk while the students to busywork can come across as a superb educator based on how good he/she is at BS. Meanwhile, those of us who use our planning time doing things for the kids rather than decorating prettily are left looking bad somehow. I fail to see how my kids benefit from having things like a list of the state mandated standards on the wall, which are written in language and acronyms that they have 0 comprehension of. I can see where things like essential questions work, but only when they are used effectively, not when they are just there for show. To me the education system in some states has become a set of nice hoops for both teachers and students to hop through rather than anything of quality. My least favorite comment I here is, "Why are you bothering to teach them that? It''s not going to be on the CRCT" (CRCT= our high stakes test that all 8th graders must pass to be promoted to 9th grade). My other least favorite is, "What do you mean you''re not doing CRCT practice this week?" Well, I don''t know, I figure if the kids learned all of the stuff I exposed them to this year, then they''ll probably pass the test without a week of filling in bubbles.

 

[fisherofmengirly]

I think it could be a good thing, and could be a bad thing.

I think that sometimes, especially in middle and high school years, girls (for whatever reason) start to "dumb down" in order to appear more attractive (or less intimidating) to boys. So, having girls and boys separated could be a good thing, for that purpose. Teasing, acting "tough," and like the class clown could possibly be reduced by separating the genders, too. Possibly.

I also think school is a key element to a child''s socialization and I wonder how never really having to interact with the opposite sex in a structure environment would effect a child (as an adult, as well). Of course, many children have other activities they participate in, but many really onlly have going to school for social learning and social norms.

 

[Independent Gal]

That reminds me of another consideration. I wonder whether boys can sometimes be a moderating influence on girls'' bad behaviour toward each other and toward themselves. We all know how outrageous and cruel middle school girls can be! Do boys exacerbate that? mitigate it? no effect? I''m curious.

 

[diamondfan]

I do know that early on, boys can be intimidating to the girls because boys handle things so differently. Boys will call out answers, without raising their hands, and are not ashamed or embarrassed if they are incorrect. No biggie, and they will do it again five minutes later. Girls, research shows from a young age DO feel shame and are hesitant even to raise hands and be called on lest they are incorrect, and even getting the answer right does not make this less prevalent. I remember reading about this in college, and this was sort of viewed as a negative of being with boys at the younger ages. (I was studying elementary ed and wanted to teach school). Once a girl has the confidence, being around boys is less scary to them. I also know girls (daughters of my friends who go to all girls school) who love single sex schooling, love the uniforms and not really caring about make up, clothes or what their hair looks like, since no boys are there. BUT, on weekends they are very boy crazy and want to socialize with boys and dress funky, so it is not eliminating it just pushing it to the weekends. I certainly think not all girls feel this but the ones that do might have confidence issues. And they will say that they are uncomfortable in the setting with boys. I am not sure nowadays if young girls think they need to dumb down to get boy attention, could be yes, sort of the age old thing...I remember a girl I knew in high school who was very technical and knew a lot about cars but liked this one boy who was into cars, so she acted dumb in order to talk to him about some car issue and get him to help her. She actually knew more than he did and it killed her to sit there and act like a dingy girl when she knew more. And remember in Mean Girls when LL pretends not to get the math stuff so the cute guy will tutor her and she starts failing tests so she can go to him for help? Since my sons have no sisters and their camp is not co ed, I really could not send them to an all boys school, but that is just my opinion.

 

[phoenixgirl]

It''s interesting to me how many people have said that girls lose confidence, etc., when schooled with boys, and yet from my experience where I work (and what the article says) it''s the boys who are underperforming.

In my own high school growing up, from what I can recall, boys were equally if not overly represented in honors classes and the cum laude society (the top 5% of our class). And I know that boys were 4 out of the top 5 students, although the valedictorian was a girl. But I believe where I work is more "average America" (at my own high school, those top 5 students went to Harvard, Harvard, Princeton, Yale, Princeton; where I work, everyone goes to a state school). So I think in my own hometown there was this culture of education to a fault, even. Nobody worked outside of school because they spent all of their free time being the captain of sports teams, candy striping at the hospital, running the yearbook or newspaper, and being the president of three clubs. Where I work, the kids all work ten, twenty, thirty hours a week, and the parents seem to think the child pulling his or her own weight financially is more important than doing all the little tricks that will those students get into better colleges.

So it is in this less-savvy type of environment is where I think the boys are falling through the cracks. Honestly, we''ve been realizing as a school that we aren''t helping our kids if we''re discouraging them from taking AP classes (hello crazy 11th grade teacher). We know that kids who don''t take AP English won''t get into the best state schools. So just this year I''ve begun telling the kids to take as many AP/honors classes as they can junior and senior years. And I can tell that literally no one has ever told them this by their frightened expressions and many follow-up questions. I''ve also been telling them that they must have some kind of extracurricular leadership (captain, president, editor, etc.), which also seems to have come as a surprise, but I know if they don''t, they won''t even get into the honor society which I sponsor. These practices--taking the hardest classes and having impressive extracurriculars--were common knowledge in the richish north-eastern suburb where I grew up, but at my average high school, everyone is clueless!

Now, these are the honors students that I''m talking about. They plan to go to college and think they''re doing what they need to do to get there, but no one is giving them the advice to make them competitive. Getting back to the whole "college for everyone!" discussion, we do have a significant population who won''t be going to college, but my point is that even our best students are not making themselves as attractive as possible.

Because IQ points for IQ points, these kids are not dumber than my peers at my high school. It''s all in the packaging.

 

[diamondfan]

I think it means girls do not FEEL good, but that they still probably work hard to get good grades. Whereas a boy might not get as upset if he does not get the good marks, he could still be okay in terms of his self image.

 

[strmrdr]

Iv been in single gender classrooms and mixed when I was in school and I don''t see how it really made any difference one way or the other.
But then again I went to school in the age when the teacher actually had control of the classroom.

Of course most classes Id walk in and look over that days work, get it, then take a nap so I didn''t really care who was in class.

 

[Kaleigh]

My kids would tell you that in the early years it's great. But as time goes on it's isolating. My DD went K -12th. She was ready to leave by 10th grade, but she felt it was too late. She got a great education, has great friends but was plain bored there. My son was in a single gender school from preK - 9th grade. He loved it when he was a little guy, he was sick a lot and this school embraced him. But once he was ready to fly, he was out of there. He's very happy where he is now, it's co ed, and close to home. She tells him all the time, if she had the gumption, she would have done the same thing. So now she's in college at Penn, majoring in Economics with a minor in *********

There aren't that many women majoring in ECON. She's not in Wharton, but in the School of Art and Sciences. I believe her confidence in speaking up came from her single gender school. The goal of the school was to raise articulate bright young women, who could think on their feet. That she got in spades, am very thankful.
I am thankful to both schools, they gave them a great foundation, self confidence, and the courage to seek out what they wanted to be in life. Can that happen anywhere, yes!!! Absolutely!!

Just sharing my own experience, or that of children as they saw it.

 

[brazen_irish_hussy]

I think it depends more on the person than the sex in my experience as to how much they speak up. I was raised by my parents to speak in class and be open and trusting in my intelect and I have done it so well that teachers sometimes asked my NOT to talk during class so others might get a better chance. My brother and I are the same in this because our mother taught us that way. My friends who have mothers who were not the same way didn''t answer questions and participate during class. In my experience, it is what they see from their parents and not the sex they happen to be. I think girls just see their mothers not being as vocal and do the same.

 

[diamondfan]

If you want to read an interesting book, easy to get through, on gender differences, get Carol Gilligan''s "In a Different Voice". I am not saying I agree with her 100%, but her postulates are interesting. I do not think her research methodology was totally up to par and it is mostly anecdotal, but she makes some very interesting obsevations about girls and boys and the way they evolve...she talks about school and how the differences play out.

 

[Pandora II]

I went to an all-girls school and then an all-boys school (there was only one other girl in my year, 6 total in a school of 300) and then to a co-ed secondary school at 13.

If I have kids in the future, I will send the girls to a single-sex school and the boys to co-ed.

 

[Fancy605]

I just realized I never got around to commenting on the topic.

As a middle grades teacher, I would love to wok in a single gender environment. I don''t know about how it would work for k-5, and I think co-ed works well for high school, but with middle grades, the presence of members of the opposite gender is SUPER distracting. One year, I taught a brilliant, popular girl in both my reading and my English classes. Now, my reading class was predominantly female with a few VERY intelligent males. My English class was more of a mixed bag. When I called on brilliant, popular girl in reading, she produced brilliant answers, but when I called on her in English, she was scatter brained and mostly said, "IDK" When I asked her about this, she admitted that she didn''t like answering questions in English because of all the boys that were in there with her. It was just easier pretending not to know than to have to look nerdy in front of them. Now, this phenomenon is not true of all girls, but it is true of enough to make a difference.
It''s also true that today''s version of public education VERY MUCH caters to girls and the way they learn more so than it does to boys. This would account for the rise in female achievement. A lot of what we do in the classroom is geared towards female success (of course there are exceptions to every rule some girls learn more like the majority of boys and vice versa)
The bulk of the research I''ve looked at suggests that behavior is the main difference. Single gender classrooms tend to be easier for teachers to manage as far as behavior goes. As a teacher, I can see where that makes a lot of sense at the middle school level.

I know of a school that is thinking of doing single gender academic classes and mixed gender exploratory classes (Art, band, technology, PE, etc). I will be interested to see how that works.

 

[diamondfan]

I can only tell you the one thing that my friends have been dealing with with their daughters, and I am not sure if co ed or single sex would deal with this. I only have sons so I do not know about this currently, but I hear the teen age and pre teen girls are horrid and viscious for the most part. They bully each other in really insidious ways, and they tease girls who are not in their group. And one day you are in the group and fine, the next you are an outcast. My friends tell me of hysteria before a school dance because the hair is not right etc, and while I recall being a tad dramatic in middle and high school, almost all of my friends with this age group of daughters in my area are pulling out their hair. Maybe all girls education at the right time helps put the focus on cooperative stuff but I am just not sure how things are in this day and age. I do know that a pal of mine with three daughters interviewed at one of the all girls schools in my neighborhood. She was looking for first grade placement for her oldest. She told me a story that when she went into the room, the teacher announced that Mrs. So and So was visiting and that the girls were going to put on a skit or something. These 1st graders stood up on their chairs and each said a line like "I will be empowered" and "I will not allow anyone to put me down" and "Girl power is the best" and "I will have a voice"...and she was shocked that in first grade this was going on. She felt like she is raising her girls to be strong and confident and just felt this was carrying the notion too far. And this is a nationally known school that is considered one of the top all girls schools in the country.

 

[Independent Gal]

I''ve read that Carol Gilligan book. I agree it''s interesting, and I also don''t agree with all of it. There''s a lot to be said for ''thought provoking'', even when one doesn''t agree, though. So, it''s got my vote too.

 

[diamondfan]

She was a mom to three boys, and taught at Harvard. I think she worked under Erikson and Kohlberg. I think decades ago her ideas were much more radical. The book is interesting, I might even re read it now and see what I think. I read it in graduate school over 15 years ago. It is interesting to think that a lot of theorems were postulated by men and applied to men first and then to women, and if women are wired differently that is using a broad brush for sure. I would not take her word as gospel but I do recall thinking it was interesting stuff at the time.

 

[anchor31]

Date: 2/29/2008 3:32:36 PM
Author: KimberlyH

You asked for it....

One of the biggest trends in I see in education now is the theme of ''College for All.'' I think this mentality is just another nail in the coffin of our education system. I go into 1st grade classrooms filled with students who are already concerned about what college they are going to attend. I am all for students having ambition and determination, but we are teaching students that there is something wrong with being anything other than a college graduate and I think it''s ridiculous. This mentality equates becoming something other than a college grad -- a construction worker, an automobile mechanic, a plumber -- a failure, when, in fact, these are all admirable career paths that are vital to our society.

I am so concerned for our future, and the hands that it lies in.

I know this isn''t the main topic of this thread, but I had to reply to this. I totally agree with your opinion, Kimberley. It''s not only in the States but also in Canada... It''s been pounded into my generation''s head that without a college degree we would have no life. My parents (bless them) have also been like this. My dad put himself through college to become an engineer and graduated with 20k of debt in 1974... He had to work full time while taking classes to pull it off. And in his mind, there is nothing more important than going to college and he worked very hard to put money aside to help us get there and through it. While I admire and appreciate the intention greatly, the fact that it was expected of me to attend college wasn''t easy for me. I''m almost done now (thank God), but I''ve pretty much struggled thoughout. I often wonder if I''d have been happier doing a technical course (3-year programmes in junior colleges in Qc) instead. But in my family it wasn''t an option.

Take my FI, for example. He''s a certified carpenter and an industrial designer, working in the petroleum industry in computer assisted drawing and design. He graduated on top of his industrial design class 3 years ago, got a job right away, gets at least 2 offers a year, and his salary is rising so fast he''s already making more than I will ever make as a teacher, even though I went to college. He''s getting noticed quite a lot (in a good way!) by some of the big heads in the field and I expect we''ll have to move to Alberta before long. Despite all that, he often struggles with confidence issues just because he didn''t go to college. Well, I know his self-esteem issues go deeper than that (try believing in yourself after spending 20 years being told you''re a loser...

), but I don''t think whether he went to college or not should be an issue. He''s a very intelligent man and he''s successful. He''s got a great job and he makes good money. He''s happy. And that''s what matters.

/rant and off my soapbox...

 

[diamondfan]

The thing I appreciate is that our school college advisors told the parents that IF your child wants to go to college, there IS a college for all types, be it art college, a traditional 4 year, big, small, etc. I liked that they were not trying to fit all kids into the same mold. Pressuring someone to attend at all, when their career choice does not indicate doing so, is a different matter. But I know it has taken pressure off of the kids I know looking at college soon, since even if they are not fitting in the traditional mold, there are options for them. I know kids who have been concerned about this since the 5th grade in a serious way, it must be the parents influence of course, but still, who starts to worry about this at such a young age?

 

[Tacori E-ring]

I didn''t read the article OR the other responses (Bad PSer, Bad!) But wanted to share my own experience. I went to an all girls prep high school and it was a great experience. It really opened me up (I was so shy before but it is hard to blend in when teacher/student ratio is 1:. It was kind of like summer camp. I loved having a uniform and not having to look good (or compete) for boys. It was a tough school, harder than college. I would love to send my daughter there though we don''t live in the same state. For boys I am not sure. I heard horror stories about our brother school.

 

[KimberlyH]

Date: 3/7/2008 2:22:12 PM
Author: diamondfan
The thing I appreciate is that our school college advisors told the parents that IF your child wants to go to college, there IS a college for all types, be it art college, a traditional 4 year, big, small, etc. I liked that they were not trying to fit all kids into the same mold. Pressuring someone to attend at all, when their career choice does not indicate doing so, is a different matter. But I know it has taken pressure off of the kids I know looking at college soon, since even if they are not fitting in the traditional mold, there are options for them. I know kids who have been concerned about this since the 5th grade in a serious way, it must be the parents influence of course, but still, who starts to worry about this at such a young age?

The people who worry about this at such a young age are the children I work with who are force fed that college is where they all belong. There''s big difference between saying "All of you should be planning to go to college" and "If college is your goal you need to work hard, study and do your very best. And if college isn''t your goal, or it''s not the right path for you, that''s okay too, because there are many paths you can follow to be successful."

I''m all for promoting children becoming what it is they want to be, but there are limits. For example, I wanted to be (either a teacher or) a nurse. One slight problem: I performed poorly in all of the prerequisite courses, because I am simply not science minded. I did my best, I sought tutoring, I studied hard, it simply isn''t the career for me. Knowing that no one would think less of me for trying made my attempts to do so more meaningful, and it was a great life lesson for me that I can''t have everything I want. Knowing that no one would be disappointed in me for not being successful made it a much easier pill to swallow. And I found my niche, and I''m good at what I do, and that''s what I want for all students. To try, fail, try again, explore, learn, and be happy. Not think that if they don''t go to college they are not intelligent, or capable of becoming productive members of society.

 

[pennquaker09]

As a teacher, I prefer having girls in my classroom. I teach chemistry. Chemistry labs are dangerous, and when you add boys to it, it''s a recipe for destruction.

And just as a personal opinion, girls rock.

 

[perry]

I wonder about how much of the differences is Female/Male based and how much of the differences are basic personality type differences.

In college, I ended up in a discussion on teaching techniques with one of the more interesting professors I had that year. He explained that as a general rule different people with different personalities tended to learn by different methods. Engineers tended to fall mainly into two of those groups. As such, did I notice that he went over each subject example twice - but in different ways; with one of the ways clear to me and the other harder to follow. I nodded yes. Well, about half of the class easily follows the explanation you find hard to follow; and by teaching it both ways is why I''m such a good professor.

It''s been a long time (decades in fact) since then - and I did a little poking around in the library. Sure enough, there was a fair amount of literature discussing how in an ideal setting the material would be presented in the method the student would innately grasp. Ideally, people would be broken into groups based on learning method.

Of course, a secondary part of education is learning to deal with people; and you need to be in mixed personality - and mixed sex environments for that. The question is really how much of that is needed, and in what environment. Should school be broken into two sections where some of the key "R" subjects (Reading, Righting, Rithmatic, Reproduction, Religion, Recreation, Resourcefulnesses, Rights, Responsibilities, etc) are taught in segregated classes by learning method, and other in mixed groups where social interaction is necessary.

So I question breaking the issues down to just Females versus Males. In some things there are differences there. But, I feel learning method matched to the student is far more important.

Also, A good teacher in a good school can create a responsible environment where people of both sexes can interact without fear. Too bad we don''t have as many of those as we used to (and I remember a 5th and 6th grade teacher who was marvelous with engaging both the gals and guys in the class - on any subject).


Perry

 

[diamondfan]

I do not disagree.

There is a much broader "stereotype" of how male and female brains are wired. It has been generally viewed that men are better at math and logic and critical thinking while women are better with the abstract, emotive and creative. Of course that it is generalization but I think brain scans do confirm some of the wiring basics.

However, people are unique and have different styles even within a more broad framework.