Should U.S. women serve directly in combat roles?

[kenny]

I say yes.
Agree?

It is finally being considered . . .
http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/01/15/military.women/index.html?hpt=T1

 

[Imdanny]

Re: Should US women serve directly in combat roles?

Yes.

 

[mrscushion]

Yes.

 

[yssie]

sure, why not? as long as all requirements, training, and testing (physical and mental) is of the same standard for both genders.


Edit: I recognize that I'm opining sitting safe and warm in my bed whilst people - men and women - risk their lives to keep my neck safe. I don't know what it's like, I don't know how it is, I don't know the nitty-gritty of it, and I can only assume that there is a lot more to consider than just physical ability - in the logistics of implementing this equalization. I'll leave it to those who know what they are talking about to continue this discussion.

 

[Hudson_Hawk]

If they're willing and trained properly, then yes.

 

[Tuckins1]

Why not? Girls can pull a trigger just the same as boys.

 

[stone-cold11]

sure, why not? as long as all requirements, training, and testing (physical and mental) is of the same standard for both genders.

Ditto this and not getting PC by reducing the requirement for females which is the norm in most military nowadays.

 

[ksinger]

sure, why not? as long as all requirements, training, and testing (physical and mental) is of the same standard for both genders.

Ditto this and not getting PC by reducing the requirement for females which is the norm in most military nowadays.

Yeah, from what I hear that is the dirty little secret. Of course on the other hand, they pretty much ARE in combat whether official or not. So, a quandry....

 

[movie zombie]

women are already being used in urban combat to enter and search homes....a duty for which it is clearly written they are not to be doing.....but the units in iraq have been doing this for years. there are particular areas in which women excel: one of which is sharp shooting. apparently, its worked out well for israel. why not?

MoZo

 

[stone-cold11]

Yeah, from what I hear that is the dirty little secret. Of course on the other hand, they pretty much ARE in combat whether official or not. So, a quandry....

Defending yourself when under attack and direct combat roles are 2 different things. Defending means you have support, ammo and water/food in place/nearby. Direct combat roles for infantry means the door kicker, they carries all the water, meals, ammo, communication gear they need for the mission on them, sometimes far in excess of 80lbs, depending on the mission. During the Falklands war, the paras are packing 160lbs each. If someone in the unit is not able to pack as much, someone else will have to pick up the slack or unit effectiveness drops.

 

[ksinger]

Yeah, from what I hear that is the dirty little secret. Of course on the other hand, they pretty much ARE in combat whether official or not. So, a quandry....

Defending yourself when under attack and direct combat roles are 2 different things. Defending means you have support, ammo and water/food in place/nearby. Direct combat roles for infantry means the door kicker, they carries all the water, meals, ammo, communication gear they need for the mission on them, sometimes far in excess of 80lbs, depending on the mission. During the Falklands war, the paras are packing 160lbs each. If someone in the unit is not able to pack as much, someone else will have to pick up the slack or unit effectiveness drops.

I stand corrected, and more informed. Thanks Stone-cold. I would think there would be very very few women who could actually make that required standard, if it's based on sheer brute strength. Not to say that no woman could, but certainly fewer than men. Fact of life.

 

[kenny]

If this passes I'm sure women will be reassigned when no longer able to meet physical requirements X, Y and Z when 8 months pregnant.
But how about 8 weeks pregnant?
I wonder if the physical and psychological stress of combat affects a fetus as does smoking and alcohol.

Plus while I applaud treating both genders equally, does anyone have and ethical/moral concerns about putting a fetus in harms way?
Clearly the adult woman can choose to be there or not, but the fetus can't.

 

[kenny]

Besides concerns related to pregnancy what about that time of the month?

I'm ignorant on this subject because, being gay, I don't have personal experience with a girlfriends or a female spouse.
Are they any physical or mental factors related to menstruation that would affect ability to perform such duties?

A simple no would suffice.
You don't have to castrate me for being an ignorant chauvinist male pig, ladies.

I hope our female service member in Iraq, Adelain (sp?), speaks up.

 

[AnneinGA]

Kenny, there are birth control pills that either give you three months of no period then one week on, so you only have four a year, or most doctors will tell you that you can take them without the "off week" and just not have a period at all. But "that time of the month" is applicable to any soldier, either in boot camp or in combat.

I went to a military college and had this debate in my poli-sci class, with half the class being uniformed cadets who would commission US Army. This was always a heated debate, but it did not usually center on whether or not a female could carry a ruck sack or be mentally capable of combat during that time of the month. In my opinion, as long as any soldier (man or woman) can carry their weight, gender should not matter.

The debate for me is the added dimension of sexual torture. I belive that if a taliban soldier captured a female combat soldier that they would have the opportunity (and take it in my opinion) to rape and sexually torture a female. I do not know if they do that to men or not, but is this nation ready to handle the rape and torture of our mothers, sisters, grandmothers, daughters, and girlfriends? This is a risk that our female pilots already take should they be shot down. And I do not believe a woman should be barred from combat simply because she is a woman. However, are our female soldiers ready to be raped and is our nation ready to have those videos published? Some parts of the middle east practice female genital mutliation. Should our soliders also be subject to these risks?

I am not saying that women have more combat risk than men. I am not saying they can't mentally handle being in combat.. I am talking about step two, which occasionally happens, when our soliders are captured and tortured. I do not believe that we are ready to see our women in this place.

Thank you for all who serve, regardless of gender.

 

[kenny]

Anne, excellent points that I had not considered.

 

[lulu]

I have always believed that the best armies would consist of rotating groups of premenstrual women deployed one week at a time.
Deprive them of chocolate and give them guns.
(It's just a joke!)

 

[megumic]

Actually, I've heard that a woman's physical stamina is increased during her period -- perhaps it's the hormones?? Personally, as a runner, I've experienced this and feel it is certainly true and can imagine while in combat it would be an added boost.

As to the OP, yes, I think women should serve in whatever capacity they can. Sex is not determinative of ability or success.

 

[kenny]

I have always believed that the best armies would consist of rotating groups of premenstrual women deployed one week at a time.
Deprive them of chocolate and give them guns.
(It's just a joke!)

LOL.
That's a joke I'm glad I didn't tell here.
I have a penis.

 

[Jennifer W]

I have always believed that the best armies would consist of rotating groups of premenstrual women deployed one week at a time.
Deprive them of chocolate and give them guns.
(It's just a joke!)

The tried that, I think. The British Army, I mean. It didn't work - we all synchronised our cycles after a few months, then as we got further into training, they stopped completely.

 

[Andelain]

I hope our female service member in Iraq, Adelain (sp?), speaks up.

I normally won’t touch a thread like this with the end of my rifle, but since I was named and the posters in her seem to want to know instead of insult women as I often see, here I am. I'm not a combatant, but have been outside the wire several times and have been in combat situations. Not as a ground pounder, but while in vehicle transport. I've seen the effects of war and just how ugly it really is. So here's my $.02 worth.

No, women should not be allowed in combat MOS’s. For several reasons.

1. Physical. Most women simply don’t have the strength to hump a combat load at the speed and distance required in combat. Not being able to keep up with your squad can get your battle buddy killed. They also would have to be able to pull their 250 # wounded squadmate from the line of fire. Women also have a lighter bone structure, making them prone to stress fractures and other problems caused by those loads even if they can tote them. That requires they be pulled from combat while being treated, which takes away from unit cohesiveness. Sure, there’s some women out there that could handles it, but they’re the exception. The PT test that we women are required to pass is considerable easier then the test for the same age male. That’s fine for most MOS’s, like mine for example, but completely unacceptable in an MOS where strength and endurance is needed. Most women can’t pass the men’s PT requirements.

2. Many combat units are stationed at places like COPs (Combat Outposts). Most people don’t know what crapholes these places are, but I’ve seen a couple for myself. They simply don’t have separate latrines and showers for the women, nor the resources to build them. When a man has to relieve himself while on a patrol it’s much easier, and he doesn’t have to squat behind a rock to hide from the men, as a woman would have to do. While riding in a vehicle a man can make water into an empty bottle. Ladies, just try that yourself, especially while bouncing down a dirt ‘road’.

3. Women, by our nature are mothering, nurturing, caring. We find it harder to engage the enemy. Sure, we do, but that split second hesitation can get our battle buddies killed. Women are also more prone to PTSD. While that may not be a negative on the battlefield it costs you taxpayers more to care for us afterwards.

4. Men, by their nature are the protectors, the warriors, the defenders. They cannot stand to watch women suffer, bleed and die. They’ll take unacceptable risks to protect or save a woman, and people die that way. I can tell you for a fact that a wounded woman, even an unattractive middle-aged one, upsets the men around her to the point that medics will leave a more critically injured man to go to her aid. That’s completely unacceptable and can cost lives.

5. There are a lot of jobs that women can do as well as, or even better than a man. Let them do just that, don’t try to retool the military, waste taxpayer money, and risk the lives of my brothers in arms for the rare woman who could handle it. I'm not even going to address things like sexual harassment and unit morale, plus Anne made a very good point about females being captured and being used to break our will to fight.

Kenny, your question on pregnancy is actually moot. Pregnancy renders a woman non-deployable, no exceptions, no grace period. Sadly some women use that to get out of deployments.

 

[ksinger]

To the post that Kenny deleted....periods stop for any number of reasons: stress and too-low body fat level being biggies. I think it reasonable that both of those come into play in the military.

But really, I would hope we're all past the "women have periods and so aren't fit to serve" bit. That should have gone out with high-button greaves, and I'm kinda surprised it's even being discussed. As Anne pointed out, what is so vastly different about COMBAT that would make a bodily function more impactful than it already is? Out in the boonies with minimal supplies is out in the boonies with minimal supplies, whether you're fighting or on a camping trip.

The REAL difference (as I've been informed by Stone-cold AND my husband - and probably next week when I ask an army Lt. Col friend of mine) is the physical - can a woman truly handle the physical stresses and carry the weight - and be able to do it in a life-and-death situation.

Heck, even MEN are coming back with severe knee, back and hip injuries from the weight they carry. I know one personally - a young marine who is the son of a marine drill sargeant, so NO wimp. He came back from his time in the service, with a seriously hammered back from carrying 130-ish lbs all the time.

There is mounting evidence that women suffer more PTSD than men too. It's horrible when men have it. How much MORE horrible is it going to be when MOM has it?

Then there is the oft-cited unit cohesion. At the end of the day, this is still a woman, and these are men in an extremely high-stress environment. Considering the number of women in the military who are raped by their own comrades, I would think that this is a pressure cooker we might not want to get into. It certainly bears some serious consideration. For reasons FAR beyond monthly body function, this may actually be the end of the line for what women SHOULD do.

 

[ksinger]

I hope our female service member in Iraq, Adelain (sp?), speaks up.

I normally won’t touch a thread like this with the end of my rifle, but since I was named and the posters in her seem to want to know instead of insult women as I often see, here I am. I'm not a combatant, but have been outside the wire several times and have been in combat situations. Not as a ground pounder, but while in vehicle transport. I've seen the effects of war and just how ugly it really is. So here's my $.02 worth.

No, women should not be allowed in combat MOS’s. For several reasons.

1. Physical. Most women simply don’t have the strength to hump a combat load at the speed and distance required in combat. Not being able to keep up with your squad can get your battle buddy killed. They also would have to be able to pull their 250 # wounded squadmate from the line of fire. Women also have a lighter bone structure, making them prone to stress fractures and other problems caused by those loads even if they can tote them. That requires they be pulled from combat while being treated, which takes away from unit cohesiveness. Sure, there’s some women out there that could handles it, but they’re the exception. The PT test that we women are required to pass is considerable easier then the test for the same age male. That’s fine for most MOS’s, like mine for example, but completely unacceptable in an MOS where strength and endurance is needed. Most women can’t pass the men’s PT requirements.

2. Many combat units are stationed at places like COPs (Combat Outposts). Most people don’t know what crapholes these places are, but I’ve seen a couple for myself. They simply don’t have separate latrines and showers for the women, nor the resources to build them. When a man has to relieve himself while on a patrol it’s much easier, and he doesn’t have to squat behind a rock to hide from the men, as a woman would have to do. While riding in a vehicle a man can make water into an empty bottle. Ladies, just try that yourself, especially while bouncing down a dirt ‘road’.

3. Women, by our nature are mothering, nurturing, caring. We find it harder to engage the enemy. Sure, we do, but that split second hesitation can get our battle buddies killed. Women are also more prone to PTSD. While that may not be a negative on the battlefield it costs you taxpayers more to care for us afterwards.

4. Men, by their nature are the protectors, the warriors, the defenders. They cannot stand to watch women suffer, bleed and die. They’ll take unacceptable risks to protect or save a woman, and people die that way. I can tell you for a fact that a wounded woman, even an unattractive middle-aged one, upsets the men around her to the point that medics will leave a more critically injured man to go to her aid. That’s completely unacceptable and can cost lives.

5. There are a lot of jobs that women can do as well as, or even better than a man. Let them do just that, don’t try to retool the military, waste taxpayer money, and risk the lives of my brothers in arms for the rare woman who could handle it. I'm not even going to address things like sexual harassment and unit morale, plus Anne made a very good point about females being captured and being used to break our will to fight.

Kenny, your question on pregnancy is actually moot. Pregnancy renders a woman non-deployable, no exceptions, no grace period. Sadly some women use that to get out of deployments.

Thanks Andelain. We were posting at the same time and you beat me and said it far better, and with the authority of being there. You've confirmed what my hubs has told me, and what I've heard several others say recently. I'll still ask my Lt. Col bud just for fun though. He was in Iraq when we rolled in. Interesting stories for sure!

 

[kenny]

Andelain, thank you so much for responding.
I value your input on the this topic more than ANYTHING I read ANYWHERE.

PCness and equality can be its own worst enemy at times.
PC is simple and black and white, while reality is often complex and nuanced.

You have brought up things I never would have imagined since I never saw combat in my 6 years on active duty.

Not being in your world I have a few terminology questions.
What is:
a combat MOS
outside the wire
ground pounder
PT test

Why are women more prone to PTSD?

 

[Andelain]

Andelain, thank you so much for responding.
I value your input on the this topic more than ANYTHING I read ANYWHERE.

PCness and equality can be its own worst enemy at times.
PC is simple and black and white, while reality is often complex and nuanced.

You have brought up things I never would have imagined since I never saw combat in my 6 years on active duty.

Not being in your world I have a few terminology questions.
What is:
a combat MOS
outside the wire
ground pounder
PT test

Why are women more prone to PTSD?

Oops, sorry for the military lingo. I didn't consider my audience.

MOS = Military Occupational Specialty. In other words, your job. Infantryman is a combat MOS, or job.

Outside the wire = off the US base. We have to travel between bases regularly, either by ground transport or by air. That's where all the stuff happens that you hear on the news. I’ve been on choppers that were shot at by AK-47’s and rockets, luckily the rockets missed and the SAF did no damage. I’ve been on an MRAP that was hit by an IED.

Ground pounder = slang for a foot soldier, such as an infantryman or scout. Infantrymen are also called grunts and a couple other terms that might get me in trouble here. Said with respect of course.

PT test = the physical test that we have to do regularly. Consists of push-ups, sit-ups, and 2 mile run. Women have much longer to complete the run and are not required to do nearly as many pushups as men. Only the sit-up requirement is the same.

As to why we’re more prone to PTSD, I’ll leave that one to the medical professionals to answer. I just know that we are, and the soldiers where I am is no different.

 

[yssie]

Ande - thank you for posting your views. As Kenny said you are definitely in the best position to know, and your words make sense.

Thanks again to you and yours for working to keep us safe.

 

[anchor31]

Yes. Women do in Canada and Israel. I'm sorry, Adelain, I admire and respect what you do, but I have to disagree. My sister is a Combat Engineer in the Army (Canadian Forces). She loves what she does and is darn good at it. Finished 2nd in her class in training and is on the fast-track for a promotion. She's definitely a tough woman, but she can do just as well as the guys, even better than some. I strongly believe that if a woman wants to do it and can prove that she can do it just as well as the guys, she should. She will definitely have to work harder than the guys, but she should be given a chance. Not giving her a chance is discriminatory.

 

[Miss Sparkly]

I do not think that women should be in combat just to make thing equal. Women and men ARE NOT equals. Never have been and never will be. I feel that the best person for the job should fill that job regardless of gender. That means that we will probably have more women nurses and more men in combat but that's okay. I also believe that women who are captured by the enemy will be sexually abused - heck they abuse their own people this way. What if this woman is rescued but is pregnant? Maybe she doesn't believe in abortion? Or even if she does, abortion is a very difficult process to go thru. I can't begin to imagine the psychological implications this would have on the individual woman and have on the women troops.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I really respect your reply Andelain! Women and men are made differently and sometimes fulfill different roles better than the other. I would not want my daughters drafted for combat. No way.

 

[packrat]

JD and I were watching one of those shows on the military channel the other day, about the Special Forces Green Berets and the training they go thru. I love those shows; they're so interesting. Anyway, while we were watching men run rolling and vomiting and rolling in the vomit, I asked if women ever train for those things, and he gave me a lot of the same reasons Andelain did in her reply. Made sense to me. We're both of the mind that there are certain things "most" women can do better than men and certain things "most" men can do better than women. If a woman can do it, we're all for it.

 

[AGBF]

Yes. Women do in Canada and Israel. I'm sorry, Adelain, I admire and respect what you do, but I have to disagree. My sister is a Combat Engineer in the Army (Canadian Forces). She loves what she does and is darn good at it. Finished 2nd in her class in training and is on the fast-track for a promotion. She's definitely a tough woman, but she can do just as well as the guys, even better than some. I strongly believe that if a woman wants to do it and can prove that she can do it just as well as the guys, she should. She will definitely have to work harder than the guys, but she should be given a chance. Not giving her a chance is discriminatory.

Things may have changed in Israel, but women were not allowed in combat in the past. Recently, I heard some discussion of women in combat. Maybe someone in the know could update us. swimmer? (I have a great-niece in the army there right now!)

I can't vouch for the veracity of the information on this site, but you may find it useful:

http://www.your-krav-maga-expert.com/women-in-idf.html


Deb


Diamonds Are A Girl's Best Friend