Home Should I help? (& a minor vent)

[Steel]

Italia: I know you have made a decision here already so my comment is moot. But here it is anyhoo:
I think you did a disservice to yourself by sharing the exact components of your landscaping. My designs have been copied many times and now I refuse point blank to give details of the craftsmanship if I am asked. Given that you did and she copied you exactly I think she again overstepped the mark by making her lack of approval your problem. A problem you must fix (

) by getting your paperwork ready so she can submit it. I think as much as it hurts you have lost out on this one and will lose the friendship/good neighbourly-ness; either by you not handing over your work and she getting PO or you hand it over and begrudging her. I think it does not matter what you do - so you might as well do what you want.

PP: I tend to agree with your posts but I dissent here. I feel that it is Italia’s neighbour who is at fault.It was she who identically copied her design having gleaned all the pertinent supplier information.I would think that a carbon copy of anything should be considered a step too far in most close social circumstances.I think she was improperly forward in asking for a copy of the plans, nay, insisting on them.For me, Italia’s reaction seems measured – she is probably just trying to claw back some personal space.Even if she wanted to help all her neighbours – it is easy to offend and politely asking for help with the HOA is not the same as almost demanding a copy of Italia’s.So if nothing else, the way the request was made would put me off ‘helping’ her. What I am asking is - do you feel that the neighbour should/should not have acted the way she did?

 

[doodle]

This is totally random, Italia, but what is that sticking out behind your puppy''s head in your avatar? Sorry for the threadjack--I''m just very curious!

As for the situation with the neighbor, personally I think the only way you could handle the situation while being completely honest and attempting to keep the peace would be to tell your neighbor, "We worked really hard on making our landscaping personal and unique, so I''m really not comfortable with giving you our identical plans, but if you''d like some help coming up with something unique for yourselves, I''d be more than happy to assist you with coming up with your own plans." If she gets mad about this, it''s because she''s too lazy to bother putting in a minimal amount of effort, at which point, she''ll just have to get over herself. If she doesn''t get mad, genuinely follow through, tweak one or two things, then she''ll be happy with her yard, and you''ll be happy that hers isn''t identical to yours.

 

[VRBeauty]

Date: 5/23/2009 9:57:01 PM
Author: megumic
How rude of her! To me, it's the same as if she painted her house the same color siding and same color shutters. In townhouse developments it's hard to differentiate - she stole the one thing you had the ability to be different with!


Personally, I probably would be frank with her and let her know how you feel she's stolen your idea and creativity. Perhaps she could have asked before taking action, instead of after the fact. Although it's sometimes better to ask for forgiveness than for permission, I think in this case it's a bit different as she now wants YOUR plans so SHE can be approved - AFTER THE FACT at that.

And from Doodle:

As for the situation with the neighbor, personally I think the only way you could handle the situation while being completely honest and attempting to keep the peace would be to tell your neighbor, "We worked really hard on making our landscaping personal and unique, so I'm really not comfortable with giving you our identical plans, but if you'd like some help coming up with something unique for yourselves, I'd be more than happy to assist you with coming up with your own plans." If she gets mad about this, it's because she's too lazy to bother putting in a minimal amount of effort, at which point, she'll just have to get over herself. If she doesn't get mad, genuinely follow through, tweak one or two things, then she'll be happy with her yard, and you'll be happy that hers isn't identical to yours.


Italia -- I agree with megumic and Doodles' approaches. I would definitely let ms. copycat know how disappointed you were to see all the work you put into making your yard unique negated. I think you should just put it out there, for your own sake -- just tell her the same way you told us. Even if she doesn't step up and make some changes in her yard, I think you'll be able to enjoy your own yard a little more if you get it off your chest.

BTW, I would NEVER presume to speak for PP, but I think that expressing your disappointment indirectly via the plans, rather than confronting your neighbor about your disappointment that she copied you, is what prompted PP's "cowardice" remark. In my admittedly pollyanna world, your neighbor's *ahem* request was an opportunity for you to address the real problem.

 

[Maria D]

Date: 5/23/2009 8:49:19 PM
Author: purrfectpear

Generally I try to be the bigger person, especially if I have nothing to gain by NOT helping a neighbor. You never know when you might want some karma points in your favor

I disagree that Italia has "nothing to gain by NOT helping". Since she doesn't want to share her hard work and clearly feels put out by the request, she is going not going to be happy with herself if she hands over the plans. Since she'll lose self-respect by giving the plans she GAINS it by keeping her plans to herself.

Italia, I think the situation your neighbor put you in is only a problem if you feel you have to be in anyway involved in her landscaping decisions/approval. You don't. The next time she asks you for the plans (or tells you she needs them ASAP) you can say, "Sorry, they're not available." She'll ask what you mean. You can say it one more time and then change the subject. "They're just not available -- hey, do you know anyone who does windows?"

You do not have to try to help her solve her problems. You don't have to mention where she can get downloadable approval forms or how you were/are upset about the copycatting. It's not confrontational to simply stand your ground without explanation! It's certainly not "acting like a toddler" -- I don't get that analogy at all. I learned this technique from my husband who is the master at dealing with people who overstep boundaries. You'd be surprised how even the ballsiest people stop dead in their tracks when your denial of their request is simple and without explanation. Yes, it is an uncomfortable moment but it is only a moment. What is she going to do, keep badgering you to explain what "unavailable" means? The only way she can do that is to be blatantly unreasonable and if that happens, it will actually be a whole lot *easier* to stand your ground.

"But you've got to have them, you submitted them, how can you say they are unavailable?"
"They just aren't, sorry"
"You just don't want to give them to me, why?"
"I told you already, they're not available -- well, I've got stuff to do so I guess I'll see you around."

She'll have to wonder if your husband said no, or you just changed your mind or if you actually lost them -- who cares? Not your problem.

 

[purrfectpear]

Steel, no I don''t think the neighbor was right to copy exactly and I do think she was pretty nervy by asking for plans "after the fact". In short I don''t agree with what the neighbor did at all.

So...I would either swallow my disappointment and help out anyway, or, I would stare her down and tell her she wouldn''t be getting any plans. I don''t tell "little white lies" except in cases where it salves the other person''s feelings (like "does this dress make me look fat?"

). I would never lie, and "can''t find them" is a lie, to save myself from repercussions or embarrassment, or because I lacked the courage to own my decision. There''s nothing "graceful" about a lie, a deception, or avoiding the truth.

Yep, life is much, much simpler when you eliminate as many shades of gray as possible. There is enough ambiguousness without intentionally adding to it just ''cause you don''t want to face the music IMO.

 

[House Cat]

Italia,

I wouldn't be giving the plans to the neighbor, but I would be honest with her about why.

Here is why. This neighbor has no respect for personal boundaries. She just assumed that you would give her the fruits of all of your hard work and creativity, and possibly money if you paid for the design! Personally, I think that after copying your landscape design, she is asking a bit too much.

Any normal person with an ounce of respect would have asked you from the beginning if you had any qualms with the duplicate job. They also would have asked if they could borrow your plans in the beginning. This woman didn't even really ask you, she just demanded the plans from you.

Now, to be truthful, it would probably take me a day or two to compose my response. But I would have to remain authentic to myself in all ways in this situation. What would be sitting in the back of my mind would be, what's next? She's testing me. This is the way these types of people work. They push a little at first. Then when they see that they can get away with a little bit, they start walking all over you. I suspect that eventually, you will have to be direct with her, if you aren't direct with her this time.

 

[fatafelice]

I think the copying your design part is a moot point. She already did it, for one, and she has a right to do whatever she wants to her own property for another (well, as long as it is HOA approved!

). Do I think it is rude? Sure, but there really isn''t anything that can be done about it.

Now, not getting the plans approved and asking for yours? That is her problem. I absolutely would not give her the plans (I am glad you aren''t), not because she copied your design, but solely because it bugs me when people try to take the lazy way out at the expense of the hard work of others. As the secretaries in my building say, "Lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part." I do feel that Maria D''s suggestion about how to tell her would be best. It is the most honest and the least dramatic way, since it doesn''t involve making up a lie. You don''t have to make excuses for not giving her YOUR plans. Just don''t. She is an neighbor, not a friend or family member, and you don''t owe her anything.

And just because I am curious, did you all pay anyone else to design your landscape? Because that is even more reason not to share them, if you ask me.

 

[Italiahaircolor]

Date: 5/24/2009 10:43:05 PM
Author: fatafelice
I think the copying your design part is a moot point. She already did it, for one, and she has a right to do whatever she wants to her own property for another (well, as long as it is HOA approved!

). Do I think it is rude? Sure, but there really isn''t anything that can be done about it.

Now, not getting the plans approved and asking for yours? That is her problem. I absolutely would not give her the plans (I am glad you aren''t), not because she copied your design, but solely because it bugs me when people try to take the lazy way out at the expense of the hard work of others. As the secretaries in my building say, ''Lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part.'' I do feel that Maria D''s suggestion about how to tell her would be best. It is the most honest and the least dramatic way, since it doesn''t involve making up a lie. You don''t have to make excuses for not giving her YOUR plans. Just don''t. She is an neighbor, not a friend or family member, and you don''t owe her anything.

And just because I am curious, did you all pay anyone else to design your landscape? Because that is even more reason not to share them, if you ask me.

We paid someone. She didn''t. She used the same wholesale lot for stone, same lighting company we used and the same stone carver for the decorative stone accent.

 

[Italiahaircolor]

Date: 5/24/2009 5:26:05 PM
Author: doodle
This is totally random, Italia, but what is that sticking out behind your puppy''s head in your avatar? Sorry for the threadjack--I''m just very curious!

As for the situation with the neighbor, personally I think the only way you could handle the situation while being completely honest and attempting to keep the peace would be to tell your neighbor, ''We worked really hard on making our landscaping personal and unique, so I''m really not comfortable with giving you our identical plans, but if you''d like some help coming up with something unique for yourselves, I''d be more than happy to assist you with coming up with your own plans.'' If she gets mad about this, it''s because she''s too lazy to bother putting in a minimal amount of effort, at which point, she''ll just have to get over herself. If she doesn''t get mad, genuinely follow through, tweak one or two things, then she''ll be happy with her yard, and you''ll be happy that hers isn''t identical to yours.

Thats Diesel, sitting on my DH''s lap...that "thing" is actually my husbands thumb! Hahah

 

[Italiahaircolor]

Well everyone I finally confronted my neighbor...

I was outside this evening, overwhelmed with my three dogs doing their "thing"...and she came over. She immediately jumped into the plans...and I told her that they aren''t available--sorry. She got somewhat "huffy"...clearly this wasn''t what she had hoped for. I explained that they are specific to our property...and that we aren''t comfortable handing them out, no offense intended--of course. I also told her that she can jump start her own approval process by printing out the first form online. She kind of rolled her eyes, spun on her heels and walked away--without so much as a good bye. P.S...she was pissed.

I feel good with my decision, which is most important...and now, life will go on!

So, thanks again for the suggestions and directional advice...it certainly went to good use!

 

[Blair138]

Good for you Italia!

 

[doodle]

Date: 5/25/2009 12:39:23 AM
Author: Italiahaircolor

Date: 5/24/2009 5:26:05 PM

Author: doodle

This is totally random, Italia, but what is that sticking out behind your puppy''s head in your avatar? Sorry for the threadjack--I''m just very curious!

Thats Diesel, sitting on my DH''s lap...that ''thing'' is actually my husbands thumb! Hahah

Tehehehehe, thanks for clearing that one up! My DH and I were both sitting here the other night trying to figure out if your cute little puppy had a penis growing out of the side of his head!

Glad to hear you were upfront about the plans with the neighbor, and honestly, I think it''s kind of funny that she was pissed off because she didn''t get something that she was neither entitled to nor deserved in the first place! People are nuts sometimes!

 

[Steel]

Date: 5/24/2009 8:23:10 PM
Author: purrfectpear
Steel, no I don''t think the neighbor was right to copy exactly and I do think she was pretty nervy by asking for plans ''after the fact''. In short I don''t agree with what the neighbor did at all.

So...I would either swallow my disappointment and help out anyway, or, I would stare her down and tell her she wouldn''t be getting any plans. I don''t tell ''little white lies'' except in cases where it salves the other person''s feelings (like ''does this dress make me look fat?''

). I would never lie, and ''can''t find them'' is a lie, to save myself from repercussions or embarrassment, or because I lacked the courage to own my decision. There''s nothing ''graceful'' about a lie, a deception, or avoiding the truth.

Yep, life is much, much simpler when you eliminate as many shades of gray as possible. There is enough ambiguousness without intentionally adding to it just ''cause you don''t want to face the music IMO.

Thanks PP.

I would take the latter position. Hopefully in time, people will stop asking me for ''favours''.

Italia: Glad you have some closure, hopefully she will steer clear in future.

 

[fatafelice]

Good for you! That was the perfect way to handle it.

 

[vespergirl]

Date: 5/25/2009 12:38:29 AM
Author: Italiahaircolor

Date: 5/24/2009 10:43:05 PM
Author: fatafelice
I think the copying your design part is a moot point. She already did it, for one, and she has a right to do whatever she wants to her own property for another (well, as long as it is HOA approved!

). Do I think it is rude? Sure, but there really isn''t anything that can be done about it.

Now, not getting the plans approved and asking for yours? That is her problem. I absolutely would not give her the plans (I am glad you aren''t), not because she copied your design, but solely because it bugs me when people try to take the lazy way out at the expense of the hard work of others. As the secretaries in my building say, ''Lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part.'' I do feel that Maria D''s suggestion about how to tell her would be best. It is the most honest and the least dramatic way, since it doesn''t involve making up a lie. You don''t have to make excuses for not giving her YOUR plans. Just don''t. She is an neighbor, not a friend or family member, and you don''t owe her anything.

And just because I am curious, did you all pay anyone else to design your landscape? Because that is even more reason not to share them, if you ask me.

We paid someone. She didn''t. She used the same wholesale lot for stone, same lighting company we used and the same stone carver for the decorative stone accent.

I agree that you shouldn''t give her your plans. And maybe it''s just me, but I prefer to play the passive/agressive game with annoying neighbors rather than tell them off. So, I would probably just tell her that my husband misplaced the plans, and we couldn''t find them, sorry. Then, if she really pressed you, it would be her that was being rude.

 

[vespergirl]

Date: 5/25/2009 12:44:54 AM
Author: Italiahaircolor
Well everyone I finally confronted my neighbor...

I was outside this evening, overwhelmed with my three dogs doing their ''thing''...and she came over. She immediately jumped into the plans...and I told her that they aren''t available--sorry. She got somewhat ''huffy''...clearly this wasn''t what she had hoped for. I explained that they are specific to our property...and that we aren''t comfortable handing them out, no offense intended--of course. I also told her that she can jump start her own approval process by printing out the first form online. She kind of rolled her eyes, spun on her heels and walked away--without so much as a good bye. P.S...she was pissed.

I feel good with my decision, which is most important...and now, life will go on!

So, thanks again for the suggestions and directional advice...it certainly went to good use!

Sorry, I responded before I read this - good for you! You totally did the right thing, and who cares if she''s upset, you know that you''re right. She really had a lot of nerve ...

 

[Kay]

Italia, good for you for standing up to your neighbor. Her behaviour was very rude and presumptious.

My advice it a bit late, but I''ll throw it out there anyway in case she has the nerve to ask again. We spent a decent amount of money having plans drawn up by a professional landscape designer. Our contract with the designer specified that the plans were only allowed to be used for our house, either by us or by subsequent owners. We do not have the legal right to give or sell the designer''s intellectual property to be used for someone else''s property. (It also wouldn''t work for anyone else because our lot is unique.) I don''t know if that was the case with your designer, but it would be a good reason for not sharing the plans. No one can stop a neighbor from copying without plans, but if you hand over the plans you may have legal difficulty with the designer.

 

[D&T]

Date: 5/23/2009 9:46:49 PM
Author: kama_s
My issue with this situation is that she never asked you if you would be okay with her replicating your design (but really, even if she did ask, how do you even say 'no'?!), and more importantly, she didn't request for the blueprints, she demanded them. If it were a friend, I would give the blueprints without missing a heartbeat. For her? Na-uh.

ditto. That would irk me

... i'd just file it away and forget about the blueprints, and just keep putting her off so she can jump through her own hoops... Some things should be worked for not just handed to her kwim?

ETA: just read the entire post

good for you for sticking to your grounds...She knows she was in the wrong being all huffy and puffy and walking off and being mad over what??? her own fault for not asking you in the first place.

 

[luvthemstrawberries]

Date: 5/25/2009 12:44:54 AM
Author: Italiahaircolor
Well everyone I finally confronted my neighbor...

I was outside this evening, overwhelmed with my three dogs doing their ''thing''...and she came over. She immediately jumped into the plans...and I told her that they aren''t available--sorry. She got somewhat ''huffy''...clearly this wasn''t what she had hoped for. I explained that they are specific to our property...and that we aren''t comfortable handing them out, no offense intended--of course. I also told her that she can jump start her own approval process by printing out the first form online. She kind of rolled her eyes, spun on her heels and walked away--without so much as a good bye. P.S...she was pissed.

I feel good with my decision, which is most important...and now, life will go on!

So, thanks again for the suggestions and directional advice...it certainly went to good use!

Haha, this made me laugh. How ridiculous, that someone would be pissed at that. As Kay said, which is the point I was trying to get at before - blueprints are legal designs. They''re not carbon copies out of a book. And as you said, you PAID for them. So good for you Italia, because you probably saved yourself even more headaches. If she''d taken those blueprints and turned them in with her forms, it''d come up later publicly that they were used without the designer''s permission. Plus, like you, I''d be annoyed that I paid for something like that just for someone else to rip off. Maybe she''s pissed because she''s not going to be able to keep the stuff in her yard, and you know as well as I do that no designer''s going to fabricate some fake plans after the fact, as legal as things like blueprints are nowadays. I''d be interested to hear what the HOA makes her do.

Anyway, I''m glad for you for the way it turned out. It''s sad that you do like to keep up with the community feel, and based on her reaction, she''s probably going to give you the cold shoulder, but she doesn''t sound like someone worth socializing with anyway if she acts this childish. Glad it''s settled.

 

[Indylady]

Italia- I don''t think that you are a coward for not telling her off. I think that you are tactful for it.

 

[movie zombie]

i''m with Steel: her problem is not your problem. she created a problem and now wants you to get her out of it.

tell her the HOA has a copy already and maybe they''ll just make a copy of what you submitted for her to use....meow.

mz

 

[*Danielle*]

I am glad you kept them for yourself. She had the opportunity to be nice and ask before hand, but went about it the wrong way. You handled the situation perfectly!

 

[hlmr]

Glad you were able to work it out!!

 

[PilsnPinkysMom]

Date: 5/26/2009 11:22:01 PM
Author: movie zombie
i''m with Steel: her problem is not your problem. she created a problem and now wants you to get her out of it.


tell her the HOA has a copy already and maybe they''ll just make a copy of what you submitted for her to use....meow.


mz

I agree w. MZ X10 (!!!) She wouldn''t dare ask the HOA for the plans because then the HOA would know they weren''t plans for her own lot and for all the legal issues that may be involved. Can you imagine that scene? "Oh, well, I don''t have plans to submit because YOU already have them! How? Well, I did the same thing Italia did... Can''t you just look at the plans she and Mr. Italia submitted?" Ha. If the HOA (presumably) frowns on re-using plans, well, then, plans shouldn''t be reused.

I''m glad you stuck up for yourself & did so in a truthful way. Kudos to you!