Seawater Used To Avoid Meltdown At Japanese Nuclear Reactors

[AGBF]

What follows is excerpted from, "The New York Times". The Japanese have already been traumatized by nuclear power in the form of nuclear weapons, the only people to have had them used against them. Now to face this leak must be appalling. The seawater was apparently truly a last resort, and it does not guarantee that there will be no meltdown. I hope some scientists will post here. And where is Perry? I believe that this is right up his alley! I would really like some more technical elucidation.
(The article is good, though. I recommend reading the entire thing.)

Deb/AGBF


TOKYO — "Japanese officials took the extraordinary step on Saturday of flooding a crippled nuclear reactor with seawater in a last-ditch effort to avoid a nuclear meltdown, as the nation grappled simultaneously with its worst nuclear mishap and the aftermath of its largest recorded earthquake.

A radiation leak and explosion at the Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Station on Saturday prompted the government to expand an evacuation order to affect 170,000 people in the plant’s vicinity. And the plant’s operator issued an emergency notice early Sunday morning that a second reactor at the same aging plant was also experiencing critical failures of its cooling system and that rising pressure there risked a new explosion.

The government said radiation emanating from the first reactor appeared to be decreasing after the blast Saturday afternoon destroyed part of the facility, and they said that they had filled it with sea water to prevent full meltdown of the nuclear fuel. That step would only be taken in extreme circumstances because ocean water is likely to permanently disable the reactor."

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/13/world/asia/13nuclear.html?_r=1&hp

 

[Imdanny]

Re: Seawater Used To Avoid Meltdown At Japanese Nuclear Reac

The Japanese have already been traumatized by nuclear power in the form of nuclear weapons, the only people to have had them used against them. Now to face this leak must be appalling.

That's more or less what my mother said.

She lived there when she was a child and my uncle was born there.

Let's hope the seawater works.

 

[shihtzulover]

Re: Seawater Used To Avoid Meltdown At Japanese Nuclear Reac

This is so scary - I really hope that the seawater works.

Didn't they say that a bit of radiation was already leaking? Did they ever give more details about that?

 

[AGBF]

Re: Seawater Used To Avoid Meltdown At Japanese Nuclear Reac

Didn't they say that a bit of radiation was already leaking?

Did they ever give more details about that?

The article gives a great deal of information on what is occurring. It is three newspaper pages long. Here is another, brief excerpt on the health of the populace, however. Unfortunately, some people have experienced the most dire effects of radiation.

"The Japanese Nuclear and Industrial safety agency said as many as 160 people may have been exposed to radiation around the plant, and Japanese news media said three workers at the facility were suffering from full-on radiation sickness.

The handling of the crisis and the vulnerability of Japan’s extensive nuclear facilities to earthquakes and tsunamis will also add to long-simmering grass-roots resistance against nuclear power within Japan, where people have learned to doubt the industry’s reliability as well as anodyne official statements about safety.

Even if Japan manages to avoid large, uncontrolled releases of radiation that would result from a meltdown, the problems at the Fukushima facility already amounted to the worst nuclear accident in Japan’s history and perhaps the biggest accident at a nuclear plant since the Chernobyl disaster 25 years ago, the worst ever.

Even before the explosion on Saturday, officials said they had detected radioactive cesium, which is created when uranium fuel is split, an indication that some of the nuclear fuel in the reactor was already damaged — a situation sometimes referred to as a partial meltdown. How much damage the fuel suffered remained uncertain, though safety officials insisted repeatedly through the day that radiation leaks outside the plant remained small and did not pose a major health risk.

However, they also told the International Atomic Energy Agency that they were making preparations to distribute iodine, which helps protect the thyroid gland from radiation exposure, to people living near the Daiichi (or No. 1) plant and a second nuclear plant that suffered damage in the quake, Daini (or No. 2), about 10 miles away."

Deb/AGBF

 

[Karl_K]

Re: Seawater Used To Avoid Meltdown At Japanese Nuclear Reac

The sea water stops the reaction so no meltdown, the problem now for that reactor is keeping containment of the waste and cleaning it up.
Once the core is flooded there is 0 chance of a meltdown, the danger is release of the contaminated water and or steam from inside the core which is extremely radioactive.

They are the same basic design as used in the US.
Chernobyl unlike the Japanese and American designs had no provision for flooding the core which is why it melted down.

The other reactors are still a problem, keeping them from doing the same thing is what they are fighting.

 

[Karl_K]

Re: Seawater Used To Avoid Meltdown At Japanese Nuclear Reac

TOKYO — "Japanese officials took the extraordinary step on Saturday of flooding a crippled nuclear reactor with seawater in a last-ditch effort to avoid a nuclear meltdown,

What is really bugging me about this is the words the media is using.
They are designed to be flooded in case they get to close to meltdown.
It is not a last-ditch effort nor extraordinary it is designed into the system as a safety that is guaranteed to stop a reaction.
It is a bad enough tragedy without the media hyping it up and scaring people more than necessary.

 

[Karl_K]

Re: Seawater Used To Avoid Meltdown At Japanese Nuclear Reac

However, they also told the International Atomic Energy Agency that they were making preparations to distribute iodine, which helps protect the thyroid gland from radiation exposure, to people living near the Daiichi (or No. 1) plant and a second nuclear plant that suffered damage in the quake, Daini (or No. 2), about 10 miles away."

Deb/AGBF

That is a sick public relations ploy.
iodine would have had to been taken 3 days ago to have any effect at all today.
Many people are allergic to iodine and it can cause more deaths than the little radiation released.

 

[AGBF]

Re: Seawater Used To Avoid Meltdown At Japanese Nuclear Reac

The sea water stops the reaction so no meltdown, the problem now for that reactor is keeping containment of the waste and cleaning it up.
Once the core is flooded there is 0 chance of a meltdown, the danger is release of the contaminated water and or steam from inside the core which is extremely radioactive.

They are the same basic design as used in the US.
Chernobyl unlike the Japanese and American designs had no provision for flooding the core which is why it melted down.

The other reactors are still a problem, keeping them from doing the same thing is what they are fighting.

Thanks, Karl. This is clear and makes a lot of sense, given what I have been reading. I keep reading about people being exposed to radiation right now and how they have been advised to stay indoors and keep their mouths covered. I have read that radiation levels right outside the gate are 8 times what they usually are. And there is no meltdown now.

Deb/AGBF

 

[Karl_K]

Re: Seawater Used To Avoid Meltdown At Japanese Nuclear Reac

I keep reading about people being exposed to radiation right now and how they have been advised to stay indoors and keep their mouths covered. I have read that radiation levels right outside the gate are 8 times what they usually are. And there is no meltdown now.

Deb/AGBF

8x background isn't a lot, 1 ct scan would give more than being in 8x for ~20 years.
For an adult it isn't enough to do harm, if someone was pregnant I would get them out of the area asap however.

 

[VRBeauty]

Re: Seawater Used To Avoid Meltdown At Japanese Nuclear Reac

Karl - thanks for adding factual information to the discussion - that helps a great deal!

 

[ksinger]

Re: Seawater Used To Avoid Meltdown At Japanese Nuclear Reac

I just saw this via a friend in my FB feed. Supposedly, this was about 200+ miles away from the epicenter of the earthquake. Scary stuff and just insanely freaky to watch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkHxDZGSM7E

 

[Karl_K]

Re: Seawater Used To Avoid Meltdown At Japanese Nuclear Reac

Karl - thanks for adding factual information to the discussion - that helps a great deal!

Your welcome.
I had to turn off the news because I was screaming at the reporter, because they had it totally wrong!

 

[JulieN]

Re: Seawater Used To Avoid Meltdown At Japanese Nuclear Reac

Many people are allergic to iodine and it can cause more deaths than the little radiation released.

[/quote]

People would only die from it if they weren't exposed since infancy/childhood. Since Japan is surrounded by the ocean, I'm sure their diet is very iodine rich.

 

[Imdanny]

Re: Seawater Used To Avoid Meltdown At Japanese Nuclear Reac

If putting seawater in it is a failsafe mechanism and the crisis is over at the reactor where the explosion occurred why hasn't the Japanese government said as much?

I don't believe the crisis is over at any of the six reactors currently affected personally.

 

[Imdanny]

Re: Seawater Used To Avoid Meltdown At Japanese Nuclear Reac

Scary stuff and just insanely freaky to watch.

I agree. The videos show such strange juxtapositions of things (e.g. a group of houses on fire on what looks to be a tiny island floating in the sea) that I for one could not have imagined these scenes. It's like something out of a nightmare.

Scary stuff indeed.

 

[AGBF]

Re: Seawater Used To Avoid Meltdown At Japanese Nuclear Reac

If putting seawater in it is a failsafe mechanism and the crisis is over at the reactor where the explosion occurred why hasn't the Japanese government said as much?

I don't believe the crisis is over at any of the six reactors currently affected personally.

Danny-I think the crisis is far from over, but I think that I am getting a clearer picture of what is happening now. I think that, "The New York Times" is catching up with Karl in the clarity of its reporting (and exceeding him in its detail since Karl is usually the soul of brevity when he posts!).

It sounds to me as if the one facility that was flooded with seawater is not in danger of a meldown now. It has been put permanently out of commission. However, it is still a grave danger to people since it can still leak radioactive steam and water. That was what Karl said in his pithy posting. The problems with how to get that radioactive material out safely are discussed at length in, "The New York Times".

Then there are the other facilities. I know that at one point I read that it had been impossible to introduce seawater into one of them in order to cool its core and prevent meltdown! I don't know how that turned out. That leaves me feeling that one facility won't experience a core meltdown, but is a hazard. Other facilities remain question marks.

Deb/AGBF

 

[Karl_K]

Re: Seawater Used To Avoid Meltdown At Japanese Nuclear Reac

If putting seawater in it is a failsafe mechanism and the crisis is over at the reactor where the explosion occurred why hasn't the Japanese government said as much?

I don't believe the crisis is over at any of the six reactors currently affected personally.

Danny-I think the crisis is far from over, but I think that I am getting a clearer picture of what is happening now. I think that, "The New York Times" is catching up with Karl in the clarity of its reporting (and exceeding him in its detail since Karl is usually the soul of brevity when he posts!).

It sounds to me as if the one facility that was flooded with seawater is not in danger of a meldown now. It has been put permanently out of commission. However, it is still a grave danger to people since it can still leak radioactive steam and water. That was what Karl said in his pithy posting. The problems with how to get that radioactive material out safely are discussed at length in, "The New York Times".

Then there are the other facilities. I know that at one point I read that it had been impossible to introduce seawater into one of them in order to cool its core and prevent meltdown! I don't know how that turned out. That leaves me feeling that one facility won't experience a core meltdown, but is a hazard. Other facilities remain question marks.

Deb/AGBF

Deb is correct, they are finally getting it mostly right and going into more detail.

They were worried about one of the reactors being able to withstand the corrosive salt water because of some repairs made to it at one point in the past. They brought in fresh water in case it was needed to flood the reactor.
My understanding is they haven't had to use it yet on that particular reactor.
It sounds like they may have flooded two reactors with sea water at this point but it is unclear if it is one or two.
The ones flooded with salt water will never run again, ones flooded with fresh water there is a slight chance they can be saved.
The cleanup of the mess in the flooded reactor(s) is going to be a nightmare but it isn't near as bad as a meltdown and can be done safely if all goes well.
It will take weeks if not months.

 

[Lula]

Re: Seawater Used To Avoid Meltdown At Japanese Nuclear Reac

Interesting read (especially the comments):
http://theenergycollective.com/barr...lear-accident-simple-and-accurate-explanation

 

[Imdanny]

Re: Seawater Used To Avoid Meltdown At Japanese Nuclear Reac

I'm no engineer or anything like that but this situation seems to be going from bad to worse. Yikes.

 

[megeve]

Re: Seawater Used To Avoid Meltdown At Japanese Nuclear Reac

This is devastating! A third explosion has happened this morning and it seems the inner core of one of the reactors has been damaged and there is some leakage!

My heart goes to the people of Japan and fervently hope that they are able to contain this catastrophe and end the nightmare!

 

[soocool]

Re: Seawater Used To Avoid Meltdown At Japanese Nuclear Reac

DH is a nuclear engineer and he lost a lot of sleep last night based on what is happening in the nuclear plants. He said the entire world should worry and be prepared.

 

[iLander]

Re: Seawater Used To Avoid Meltdown At Japanese Nuclear Reac

DH is a nuclear engineer and he lost a lot of sleep last night based on what is happening in the nuclear plants. He said the entire world should worry and be prepared.

Well, you can't just leave us with that socool! Tell us his expert opinion about what's happening and what we should do!

 

[iLander]

Re: Seawater Used To Avoid Meltdown At Japanese Nuclear Reac

I'm no engineer or anything like that but this situation seems to be going from bad to worse. Yikes.

Hi Danny! Glad you're back!

Tell us about evacuating for the tsunami and what that was like!

 

[soocool]

Re: Seawater Used To Avoid Meltdown At Japanese Nuclear Reac

DH is a nuclear engineer and he lost a lot of sleep last night based on what is happening in the nuclear plants. He said the entire world should worry and be prepared.

Well, you can't just leave us with that socool! Tell us his expert opinion about what's happening and what we should do!

iLander, all I can say is that global experts are helping to solve what is happening in Japan. The entire world has a stake in this.

People don't realize that we need nuclear power plants to provide electricity. As long as there is a ginormous demand for electricity there will be nuclear power plants since we know that the burning fossils fuels degrade the earth.There is no way that fossil fuels including natural gas can meet the global demand for electricity.

 

[Lula]

Re: Seawater Used To Avoid Meltdown At Japanese Nuclear Reac

DH is a nuclear engineer and he lost a lot of sleep last night based on what is happening in the nuclear plants. He said the entire world should worry and be prepared.

Well, you can't just leave us with that socool! Tell us his expert opinion about what's happening and what we should do!

iLander, all I can say is that global experts are helping to solve what is happening in Japan. The entire world has a stake in this.

People don't realize that we need nuclear power plants to provide electricity. As long as there is a ginormous demand for electricity there will be nuclear power plants since we know that the burning fossils fuels degrade the earth.There is no way that fossil fuels including natural gas can meet the global demand for electricity.

Be prepared like fallout shelter prepared?

 

[soocool]

Re: Seawater Used To Avoid Meltdown At Japanese Nuclear Reac

DH is a nuclear engineer and he lost a lot of sleep last night based on what is happening in the nuclear plants. He said the entire world should worry and be prepared.

Well, you can't just leave us with that socool! Tell us his expert opinion about what's happening and what we should do!

iLander, all I can say is that global experts are helping to solve what is happening in Japan. The entire world has a stake in this.

People don't realize that we need nuclear power plants to provide electricity. As long as there is a ginormous demand for electricity there will be nuclear power plants since we know that the burning fossils fuels degrade the earth.There is no way that fossil fuels including natural gas can meet the global demand for electricity.

Be prepared like fallout shelter prepared?

No, not fallout shelter prepared.

But we all should always be prepared for any disaster. Do you have flashlights, batteries, and hand cranked radio, enough water and food to last at least 2 weeks? In many cases your home is a safe haven.

Just read about what happened, years later,after the atomic bomb was dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. My heart just cries for the people in Japan and for the people who are working at the nuclear plant sites trying to stop the meltdown.

 

[Lula]

Re: Seawater Used To Avoid Meltdown At Japanese Nuclear Reac

DH is a nuclear engineer and he lost a lot of sleep last night based on what is happening in the nuclear plants. He said the entire world should worry and be prepared.

Well, you can't just leave us with that socool! Tell us his expert opinion about what's happening and what we should do!

iLander, all I can say is that global experts are helping to solve what is happening in Japan. The entire world has a stake in this.

People don't realize that we need nuclear power plants to provide electricity. As long as there is a ginormous demand for electricity there will be nuclear power plants since we know that the burning fossils fuels degrade the earth.There is no way that fossil fuels including natural gas can meet the global demand for electricity.

Be prepared like fallout shelter prepared?

No, not fallout shelter prepared.

But we all should always be prepared for any disaster. Do you have flashlights, batteries, and hand cranked radio, enough water and food to last at least 2 weeks? In many cases your home is a safe haven.

Just read about what happened, years later,after the atomic bomb was dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. My heart just cries for the people in Japan and for the people who are working at the nuclear plant sites trying to stop the meltdown.

Thanks, socool -- you make a great suggestion; we should all make sure we've got the basics for survival, whether it's to get through a power outage due to a storm or other natural disaster, or through a man-made disaster, such as this. I share your concern for the people of Japan, especially the workers at the plants who continue to do their jobs at great risk to their own health and safety.

 

[Imdanny]

Re: Seawater Used To Avoid Meltdown At Japanese Nuclear Reac

I'm no engineer or anything like that but this situation seems to be going from bad to worse. Yikes.

Hi Danny! Glad you're back!

Tell us about evacuating for the tsunami and what that was like!

Hi iLander!

Thanks for the warm welcome back!

Sincere thanks to everyone who thought of us.

We spent the night in the car at a very high elevation parked on the side of the road with a lot of other people who were doing the same thing. We listened to the radio off and on all night (I had to turn the car on most of the times we did to keep the battery from running out). SO texted his family (until his phone battery ran out) and my parents called me early in the morning when they found out what was happening. We went home in the morning after the Governor made his announcement that the tsunami warning was over. We didn't know what to expect. We thought the place might be flooded (it's in the evacuation zone and a few blocks from the water). There was no flooding and no evidence of any damage. The first thing I did when we got home was get on the computer and saw the devastation in Japan for the first time and of course this continuing situation with the nuclear plants there has been on my mind constantly.