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Save the Planet - Don''t have kids

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Moh 10

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http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/greenspace/2009/07/population-control-global-warming.html

Environmentalists tend to avoid the topic of population control.
Too touchy.
But the politically incorrect issue is becoming unavoidable as the global population lurches toward a predicted 9 billion people by mid-century.
Will there be enough food?
Enough water?
Will planet-heating carbon dioxide gas become ever more uncontrollable?

Now comes a study by statisticians at Oregon State University focusing on the elephant in the room.
If you are serious about your carbon footprint, think: birth control.

The greenhouse gas impact of an extra child is almost 20 times more significant than the amount any American would save by such practices as driving a fuel-efficient car, recycling or using energy-efficient light bulbs and appliances, according to Paul Murtaugh, an OSU professor of statistics.
Under current U.S. consumption patterns, each child ultimately adds about 9,441 metric tons of CO2 to the carbon legacy of an average parent--about 5.7 times a person''s lifetime emissions, he calculates.

"Many people are unaware of the power of exponential population growth," Murtaugh said.
"Future growth amplifies the consequences of people''s reproductive choices, the same way that compound interest amplifies a bank balance."

Given how much less the average developing nation consumes per capita, the impact of a child born in the U.S., along with all his or her descendants, is more than 160 times that of a Bangladeshi child, the OSU research found.
And the long-term impact of a Chinese child is less than one fifth the impact of a U.S.-born child.
But as China, India and other developing nations hurtle toward prosperity, that is likely to change.
 
Moh...i promise not to have another kid.
 
Holding up white flag.

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Don''t get me started on people who have 4+ kids who barely work to support their brood but keeps getting government help anyways. Now, don''t get me wrong, I have a friend who''s married who have 2 young children who recieves some baby help, but they both work and both go to school. They only recieved help until the babies are 2 and they don''t take advantage of the system....it just irks me how some people just keeps having kids continously without having any means to take care of them, but to depend on the handout.
 
People having kids to get more govmint assistance is bad, but that's a different matter.
This is about the green movement ignoring the largest contributor to a person's carbon footprint, their offspring.

I didn't write the article, but I can see both sides.
I sure am glad I was born so I'm glad mom and dad weren't too green.
But this can't go on forever.
We now have 6,774,891,743 people competing for the earth's resources, and expect 9 billion by 2050. Yikes!

The paradox of it all is summed up in that famous bumper sticker, "SAVE THE PLANET - KILL YOURSELF!"
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I personally don''t want children, but not for the same reason.
Sure little people are heavy polluters, but they also have brains and potentials to develop into super brains that may one day cure diseases, develop alternative and efficient energy sources, and educate the mass on how NOT to continue to be wasteful. Hek because of the next generations we may even all move to another planet to start our society new and let the earth become a historical museum complex. The cost and return calculation is just too complex when it comes to human life''s "actual worth" in any formula.
 
Date: 8/1/2009 4:53:40 PM
Author: Moh 10
People having kids to get more govmint assistance is bad, but that''s a different matter.
This is about the green movement ignoring the largest contributor to a person''s carbon footprint, their offspring.

I didn''t write the article, but I can see both sides.
I sure am glad I was born so I''m glad mom and dad weren''t too green.
But this can''t go on forever.
We now have 6,774,891,743 people competing for the earth''s resources, and expect 9 billion by 2050. Yikes!

The paradox of it all is summed up in that famous bumper sticker, ''SAVE THE PLANET - KILL YOURSELF!''
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is right! Being "green" had nothing to do with my decision to have a child, and if DH and I decide to have more I don''t look at it as depleting the Earth''s resources
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I can see both sides too, but sometimes I think that some groups will come up with anything to push their agenda.
 
I already had kids, sorry.
Maybe I could shoot one or two?
All joking aside, this issue is much more complex than this study would study.
Google ''birth dearth'' or ''total fertility rate'' and you''ll see what I mean.
Most industrialized nations, far from clogging up the planet with little future polluters, actually are not replacing their population to the point where this is a concern. This would include all of Europe and also Japan. France is the only nation in Western Europe which ALMOST replaces itself (you need each woman to have 2.1 children for the population to stay the same and Frenchwomen have something like 1.7 children, the highest birthrate in Europe.) Italy, Germany, Japan and some other places are in serious trouble. As the populations of these countries age and there are no young people, some fairly serious problems come up.
The U.S. is at replacement rate--but only because of the ''red states'' and because immigrants still have children. The parts of the US who think like Europeans (blue states) have low fertility rates like Europeans, too.

Before you say, fine, it doesn''t matter than certain types of people are not replacing themselves, because the world still has too many people (as some people do, sometimes even stating that it''s ''racist'' to be concerned that first world, mainly white European nations are not replacing), you need to realize that there are other complications. China and India both have a billion people at the moment, true. China, however, has had the ''one-child'' policy for a generation. The one-child policy SOUNDED like a good solution for China''s overpopulation (if you can ignore some minor details like the well-documented forced abortions) but the result has been a problematic imbalance in the sex ratio. The ''one child'' that everyone was allowed to have turned out to be overwhelmingly a male child. (If it was a female who survived the sex-selection abortion thing, she was very likely dropped off at an orphanage soon after birth and is now in the US). So now there''s the problem of all the young Chinese men who don''t have enough women to marry and are therefore not going to be having even ''one child''. This is undoubtedly going to impact the population of China by 2050. They are not going to be contributing all that much to the projected 9 billion people. India has similar issues. They did not have a one-child policy there, but sex-selection abortions are a tremendous problem in that country. The government has outlawed the use of sonograms for sex-selection purposes, but all that has done is to make the sonograms more expensive (but still terrifically in demand). There are already some Indian states with as much of an imbalance of the sexes as China. Same problem with envisioning them contributing to the 9 billion people that Oregon State University is sure are going to be leaving their carbon footprint all over by mid-century.

The only places where women do still have large, large families tend to be in Africa (Mali has the highest TFR in the world at present), where this is not going to be much a problem for the planet because in Africa life expectancy is low, AIDS is rampant and wars kill people off before they have a fighting chance to become ''polluters'' (which they couldn''t in most of Africa anyway because technology is not there). Also the Middle East. But not all the Middle East. Israeli Jews, except for the ultra-orthodox, have the European problem of not replacing the existing population. Parts of the Middle east which are prosperous, like Dubai, have sinking birth rates also.

An interesting footnote is that African-Americans in the U.S. who are about 12% of the population, do not have a high birth rate. Although a disproportionate amount of this population is low income and low income people tend to have higher birthrates, the black American population has been so successfully targeted for abortion that this is no longer the case (as it actually once was). You have the greatest chance of being aborted in the US if you are an unborn African American--by far the greatest. More than 1/3 of the abortions performed in the US since the 1970''s have been abortions of blacks. I repeat the statistic above--that this is a 35% rate on 12% of the population. Since 1973, heart disease has killed -2,266,789 blacks, cancer- has killed 1,638,350, AIDS (which is always in the news as regards the black community) -203,695, and violent crimes-306, 313. Abortion has killed 13 MILLION.

Back to the main subject--the study that Moh quotes is faulty in many, many ways. Here''s an interesting link which lays the math out. http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/P/Populations.html

In short, don''t have kids if you don''t want to have kids (it''s certainly best for the kids if you don''t), but it would be silly not to have kids because you''re worried about their ''carbon footprint''.
 
This goes along with the overcrowding theory: I worry about there being enough room for everyone on Earth through the years. My big thing is cemeteries. I am against burying dead people in the ground, it takes up too much precious land. Dead people do not need "space", living people and animals do. I am a pro-cremation type of gal. Donate my organs to help others who need them and cremate me!
 
As a soon-to-be-mom, this argument is crap. Just because things are looking bleak for the earth''s future does not mean it will remain that way, and it is highly possible that one of the children born into my baby''s generation will solve a major resource problem that we have in MY generation. So articles like this can kiss my arse.
 
Date: 8/1/2009 8:37:16 PM
Author: MonkeyPie
As a soon-to-be-mom, this argument is crap. Just because things are looking bleak for the earth''s future does not mean it will remain that way, and it is highly possible that one of the children born into my baby''s generation will solve a major resource problem that we have in MY generation. So articles like this can kiss my arse.
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I agree, too late for me have two kids, but they are all about being GREEN and all about sustainability.. Son was head of it at his school...
Every little bit helps... They make me conscious of everything... I am very thankful they have educacted Hubby and I, more so than studies or the media... I take what they have to say very seriously...
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Date: 8/1/2009 8:37:16 PM
Author: MonkeyPie
As a soon-to-be-mom, this argument is crap. Just because things are looking bleak for the earth''s future does not mean it will remain that way, and it is highly possible that one of the children born into my baby''s generation will solve a major resource problem that we have in MY generation. So articles like this can kiss my arse.
ditto! sorry already have two kids, and will likely have a couple of more
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As a very science-minded individual, I am of the opinion that population growth is an important issue and needs to be considered for the future. I mean, who wants to have children knowing they''ll be living in a world that is so far removed from what we know that life is pretty miserable? I would much rather every couple have one child that will go on to lead a happy, comfortable, long life than have 4 who struggle to survive in a terrible climate.

That being said, it would be very difficult to actually draw the line in the sand as to how many children are "ideal" or "acceptable." I think it should be below exponential, which seems like common sense -- however, if I remember correctly from my population ecology classes, that''s exactly the pattern we''re following. For the life of me, I can''t remember the actual terminology, but basically the question is, "Are humans X or Y?"...X being a type of species that produces many offspring with a low chance of survival and have very exponential growth rates with enough resources -- and Y being a species that produces fewer offspring and only follow logistic growth rates. We obviously WANT to be Y, but you can''t ignore our overuse of resources and enormous rate of growth. 9 billion by 2050 is based on moderate fertility; it''s quite possible that we could actually hit more like 11 billion if everyone gets rather fertile in the next 40 years (and with technology, that''s not unlikely).

I know I am not a parent, so I have a different opinion than others who are already raising families. I just think that when it comes to the future, ethical issues like this need to be considered objectively. I see it similar to an ethics committee making decisions regarding any life and death issue (organ transplant recipients, assisted euthanasia, etc). If you want the best for everyone, you have to put yourself aside. Much easier said than done.
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However, I don''t think anyone has a right to raise a litter, so to speak. That only takes away from the sustainability for the rest of the population.
 
Sorry... I have 3 kids...and I want granchildren...I mean these great genes need to be continued
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FF and I have no plans to have children, for multiple reasons.

I, personally, have never understood why some partners choose to have multiple children, especially when they are unable to properly care for them, and use government assistance as a means through which to provide for them. Now, ethically, I understand that some people would be furious with their government telling them they can only have a set number of children. That they feel it''s their right to have as many as they''d like. If they can truly care for these children, then to a certain extent, I suppose I agree... That being said, if you truly have a love for children, adopt. While it''s not the exact same thing, if you already have 1 or 2 biological children that you love and care for, and you have your heart set on more, why not take in a child who has already been born, and give them a chance at a better future? Just mho...
 
Just to be clear.
I'm not some anti-kid monster.

I like to discuss interesting subjects, and that would be controversial ones.

BTW, whether I have children or not is irrelevant.
200 years ago you didn't have to be a slave or even be black to have been against slavery.
You can work hard to promote green living but still need an SUV.

I thought it was perfectly fine for Al Gore to own a big house yet preach about global warming.
Yes it is inconsistent; he is not practicing what he preaches and that may reflect poorly on him, not on the legitimacy of his message itself.
Like the priests who did bad things, they were bad but that doesn't take away from what they preach.

I just cited something in the Los Angeles Times - It is not an opinion piece that I wrote.
I feel very strongly that you don't shoot the messenger.
Mature people will discuss the issue, they won't go after the person who brought it up.
This is a hangout forum where we can discuss anything, right?

I don't think any other subject results in as much passion as people's kids.
We love our children and can't image not having them.
Yet the earth does not have unlimited capacity and deciding how many kids to have is a classic application of, "Think globally, act locally".
 
I don't have children, but my thoughts are everyone can make a difference especially if we show those children who will be part of the future 9 billion how to ' think green' and not waste this planet's resources. If we try to lead by example then the future generations might be able to make a real difference on sustaining resources and do better than their predecessors.
 
The arguement has merit. Resources are not infinite and massive escalation of population will at some stage (maybe starting already) cause dramatic and negative upheaval.

However, if everyone stopped having kids right now, that would also be a disaster and we see the start of that in places like Japan, which faces a big demographic disturbance as there are fewer women having kids. In fact, Japan PAYS women to have kids at this stage. Seriously.

So, logic would tell us that having two kids would replace the population and is likely manageable. Everyone having large families is obviously a big problem.
 
Date: 8/2/2009 11:02:57 AM
Author: atroop711
Sorry... I have 3 kids...and I want granchildren...I mean these great genes need to be continued
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Atroop - LOVE this!!!

OOohhh this is interesting!! Im in the camp that agrees that population control is a very important, and people shouldnt be having lots of kids. But as others have pointed out, its not ''western'' countries that are the problem, its developing countries that have high birth rates (though these countries wont be able to sustain or grow their economies, which are still labour based, without lots of people). So its a vicious cycle.

I also think there is absolutely no value in this discussion in taking it personally...eg, my future children could do this, I''ll teach my children differently etc. Because that has nothing to do with it (and its a rather arrogant assumption!!), we''re just talking about what the earth can sustain and what it cant. And for every educated Pricescoper out there telling their kids to watch their carbon footprint, there are 1 million parents who dont know what a carbon footprint is.

When im at that stage though the decision to have kids or not im sure will not come down to the environment unfortunately...but maybe parents and people planning to be parents should be thankful to the people who dont have kids...because they''re going to make the world better for everyone elses
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On 12/20/2012 the world is going to end. Have babies, don''t have babies, just enjoy your life.
 
Obviously this is a touchy topic. I am a parent but I do not think it should be something that should be off limits. In fact, parents should be the most concerned because our children will inherit the problems that we created. These issues weighed on my mind during my decision to have my own biological children (especially my 2nd). Two things should be taken into consideration a) the number of people and b) the amount of resources each person consumes. We can reduce the impact by a) stablizing/reducing the human population on planet b) reducing the amount of resources each person uses, c) or both.

I can''t change that I have my children, they are my most precious possesions. My child living in a "first world" society has more impact on the environment than say a child born in Italy or Africa. Naturally everyone wants their children to have the highest available standard of living. But maybe we need to re-think what makes a good standard of living. Even 50 years ago American''s concept of a good standard of living was dramatically different than what it is now. I would think that the average Italian has a pretty good standard of living, but it''s estimated they use about half the resources an average US citizen does. It''s a good idea for everyone to be aware of how much resources one uses (gallons of gasoline, electricity, natural gas, amount of recyclables/bags of trash created each week). Just like someone trying to lose weight, you first has to know where you are starting out, before you can decide what target you are shooting for.

At present we are out-consuming the total world''s resources faster than they can be renewed; rainforests (the world''s oxygen factories and stablizers of climate) fresh water, soil quality, air, marine ecosystems, so we can''t continue in the present way.

Part of my responsibility as a parent is to educate my children about these issues. That we are part of the natural system, and depend on it for our existence, and our actions affect it. I''m hoping my children are part of the solution, not part of the problem.
 
Date: 8/2/2009 12:38:07 PM
Author: Hudson_Hawk
On 12/20/2012 the world is going to end. Have babies, don''t have babies, just enjoy your life.
ROFL! The greys and reptilians are going to inadvertantly destroy our world while settling a dispute over the Mayan calendar . . .
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I don''t plan to have children because I don''t want them. I think it is a little mean to have only 1 child. Parents should have at least 2. I feel this way because when you die your only child will have no one that knows how they feel. When you have 2 they have each others shoulders to cry on.

Isn''t there a religion that is against birth control? How do you feel about that?

There is constantly a "new" green theory. There was one that said that everyone should be vegetarian because since we eat beef there are too many cows and when they pass gas it pollutes the air. There is always something. Going extinct to save the earth doesn''t make a whole lot of sense to me. Some people feel that need for children. I say let them do it as long as they can take care of them. It is not fair to tell one couple they can have a baby and another couple that they can''t

Are they thinking of implementing a limit? If so someone can have the babies that would have been allocated to me.
 
Date: 8/2/2009 11:25:08 AM
Author: Moh 10
I feel very strongly that you don''t shoot the messenger.

Dude, half the people in this thread agreed with you. Where the heck do you see anybody "shooting the messenger?" Cause all I see are a few halfway sarcastic answers.
 
I don''t think anti baby is the issue here so much as people who have families with 7-8 or more children. Where is the need really? And how often do these families really make enough to care for all. I know that many times in these scenarios, those children weren''t always planned. I also think it''s important to educate our youth, so we don''t end up with as many young mothers who put children up for adoption. Unwanted children becomes an issue. I DO think our populations are spiraling to a dangerous point IF the population doesn''t work to help the environment and live a healthy and green lifestyle. I think education is the biggest thing we need to focus on, education on what effects these spiraling populations will have, education on how to live a green lifestyle, education on what needs to be done in the future, and education about our planet an ecosystems. Families should be allowed to have children, but proper education will allow them to know the limits, and understand what impact they are really having with 8 kids.
 
Date: 8/3/2009 11:53:54 AM
Author: dragonfly411
I don''t think anti baby is the issue here so much as people who have families with 7-8 or more children. Where is the need really? And how often do these families really make enough to care for all. I know that many times in these scenarios, those children weren''t always planned. I also think it''s important to educate our youth, so we don''t end up with as many young mothers who put children up for adoption. Unwanted children becomes an issue. I DO think our populations are spiraling to a dangerous point IF the population doesn''t work to help the environment and live a healthy and green lifestyle. I think education is the biggest thing we need to focus on, education on what effects these spiraling populations will have, education on how to live a green lifestyle, education on what needs to be done in the future, and education about our planet an ecosystems. Families should be allowed to have children, but proper education will allow them to know the limits, and understand what impact they are really having with 8 kids.

Word.
 
I don''t have any kids.
I certainly do not regret my decisiob. I would be the worst mother on the planet! I am such a space cadette, i would probably forget my child in a grocery cart somewhere... I am serious!!!
 
I''ll have to show this to DH to help my argument for stopping at 1 kid! (he wants 2)
 
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