PS Teachers - I need your advice

[elrohwen]

Date: 2/19/2010 10:45:29 AM
Author: oobiecoo
I can't speak as a teacher but I'll give my opinion as a sub/ex-educ. major. In the schools I taught in, basically the kids were mostly HEATHENS! And there is little to nothing you can do about it. The school can call a parent but thats about it... and if the parent doesn't care what the kid did (which is often the case), then calling them really does no good. You are also not really free to teach how or what you want. You go by a very strict curriculum and alot of it is simply preparing the kids for their standardized tests. So you are essentially 'teaching the test'. Your performance is graded by how well your students do on those tests. If you teach in a low income area where many parents don't spend time helping kids w/homework and studying, then it really doesn't matter how well you 'teach the test', your students will do poorly and it reflects on you, unfortunately. The 'politics' are one of the main reasons I changed my major. It just seemed too restricted and almost depressing... for me, at least.

I can absolutely understand why that would be awful. Maybe my high school experiences are not realistic to the majority of high schools? I went to a small private high school where even the slacker kids kind of tried. And most parents cared. My friends went to the big public high school (I went there up to 8th grade) and it really wasn't bad. I'm sure some of the classes were worse than others, but in general the kids were pretty respectful. I know my private school teachers did not make much money (many of them left for public school jobs after a year or two) but some of them had been there for 20 years - I think because they knew what a nice gig it was.

Is it unrealistic to think I could get a job at a place like the schools I attended? I definitely would not be interested in teaching inner city/extremely rural locations. But swimmer's description (in another thread) sounded fine! Though if those jobs are 1 in 100 maybe I'm not being realistic.

 

[Bella_mezzo]

Typically you can get a provisional teaching certificate (you work towards the real one in the evening while you teach during the day). Definitely you don''t need a masters. There are much cheaper routes than COlumbia TC...

My DH was thinking about doing this, let me see waht info I can find tonight and I''ll post more this evening.

 

[elrohwen]

Date: 2/19/2010 10:45:29 AM
Author: oobiecoo
I can''t speak as a teacher but I''ll give my opinion as a sub/ex-educ. major. In the schools I taught in, basically the kids were mostly HEATHENS! And there is little to nothing you can do about it. The school can call a parent but thats about it... and if the parent doesn''t care what the kid did (which is often the case), then calling them really does no good. You are also not really free to teach how or what you want. You go by a very strict curriculum and alot of it is simply preparing the kids for their standardized tests. So you are essentially ''teaching the test''. Your performance is graded by how well your students do on those tests. If you teach in a low income area where many parents don''t spend time helping kids w/homework and studying, then it really doesn''t matter how well you ''teach the test'', your students will do poorly and it reflects on you, unfortunately. The ''politics'' are one of the main reasons I changed my major. It just seemed too restricted and almost depressing... for me, at least.

I can absolutely understand why that would be awful. Maybe my high school experiences are not realistic to the majority of high schools? I went to a small private high school where even the slacker kids kind of tried. And most parents cared. My friends went to the big public high school (I went there up to 8th grade) and it really wasn''t bad. I''m sure some of the classes were worse than others, but in general the kids were pretty respectful. I know my private school teachers did not make much money (many of them left for public school jobs after a year or two) but some of them had been there for 20 years - I think because they knew what a nice gig it was.

Is it unrealistic to think I could get a job at a place like the schools I attended? I definitely would not be interested in teaching inner city/extremely rural locations. But swimmer''s description sounded fine! Though if those jobs are 1 in 100 maybe I''m not being realistic.

 

[swimmer]

Hi E, Teaching is an adventure, you are a rockstar to be thinking of doing it. Maria''s posts are golden. We teach kids first, our subject comes closer to third many days as we fill the role of mom, sister, confidante, counselor, food provider, and prognosticator for so many kids every day.

To answer your first question, well, a school is still a workplace filled with both petty people and your best friends. I depend on a close circle of teachers, we work together so that everyone has it easier. Some teachers aren''t interested in this collaboration, and others we aren''t really interested in working with b/c of their attitudes or inability to pull their weight. So, yeah, there are politics, just like any group of humans trying to get their job done.

Larger politics are that when town residents vote down tax increases, you get a pay cut or new teachers lose their jobs. That is the political stuff I hate. Also in the US with NCLB we have so much more mindless paperwork that in no way can be connected to helping kids. I love when people in other jobs complain about doing work stuff unpaid...i bet on avg for every teacher its at least 25 hours a week of unpaid out of work stuff that just has to be done. Letters of rec for college, mentoring, classroom decor, chaperoning dances till midnight...all unpaid but expected/required. None of that is directly connected to the planning and grading for 100+ students which are of course also done beyond the school day. Anyway, that is just trying to address your most recent question on politics.

In New England and NYC, the density of colleges and the high pay scale make the hiring situations very very very different from what Oobie and Lucky are talking about in Texas. Yes, sci and math are in higher demand than the humanities with their glut of unemployed grads, so you might not need an MS to get a job in some situations, but because of NCLB, you will need certification. Every school is only allowed a small percent of teachers who are not fully certified and most schools have one or two teachers already taking up that slot...so unless you find a super super dire situation, they need you to have passed the teacher test and be on the way to your masters. CT is a very high paying state and so they have a lot of highly qualified applicants. You really need to talk to some CT teachers to sus out the landscape.

From my perspective in MA, becoming a sub can be the scarlet letter, everyone knows you will work for nothing, so why hire you? Occasionally this path does work, mostly in the younger grades, but subbing is not teaching. However, a long term perm sub (being the classroom teacher for the same classes every day) for a maternity/FMLA leave might be the perfect "in" for you. My district won''t hire a full time teacher without a masters because we have too many applications, but we did hire a guy who is on his way to fill my maternity leave position. These of course pay less and don''t immediately have benefits so are far less desirable for the hordes of teachers who are having their jobs cut in other districts come June. My sub is going to keep my job till Jan 2011, so he will have almost a full year of teaching on his resume plus time to work on his MAT (which is usually a faster masters than an MEd) so by taking that year of lower pay he is ultimately going to be an awesome candidate for his next job.

For science i have a different anecdote about location, last year for an oceanography/earth science position the finalists were mostly PhDs. How else to weed through the hundreds of applications for one opening? This is a middle class boston suburb, not a fancy place, but this situation is not unusual in parts of NE. I visited a hs in Scarsdale, NY recently and you would not believe the qualifications of those teachers...so much depends on location. I know that in West Hartford neighborhood schools this will also be the case...but in Waterbury? A very different situation. If you teach in a high need area a subject like physics, you can also get your school debt written off through a variety of federal programs. Pretty amazing deals are out there if you hunt.

In NYC, you might want to look into the NYC teaching fellows program. There are lots of alt cert programs, but each has very specific qualifiers or requirements upon hiring. There is a scholarship at BU called the Noyes that is free grad school for math/STEM teachers who promise to teach in a high needs area for 2 years. Look around, there might be something like this closer to you.

I hope that this helps, really getting hired varies so much from place to place...and state requirements are very different. Universities have on their websites if they are state approved or not. Taking and passing the tests are very important. Once you get over that hurdle it should be on your resume and cover letter. I hate having to dig through a rez to figure out if the candidate is certified. It seems daunting, but in your town you can call up the principal and ask to shadow a teacher (since the .com bust I''ve had about 30 people shadow me for the day to see if they were interested in teaching). Teachers know the best/free/cheap ways to get certified or into the classroom. Every district''s contract and hiring philosophy will be different so you need to focus your search for information. What is true for Boston is not true for Texas, etc, etc. Hope that this helps!

 

[swimmer]

Oh, and to find teaching positions that don''t require certification or teaching related positions, do check out idealist a free site for non-profits. So many interesting things out there, not many high paying! But a very interesting resource.

 

[elrohwen]

Date: 2/19/2010 11:06:39 AM
Author: Bella_mezzo
Typically you can get a provisional teaching certificate (you work towards the real one in the evening while you teach during the day). Definitely you don''t need a masters. There are much cheaper routes than COlumbia TC...

My DH was thinking about doing this, let me see waht info I can find tonight and I''ll post more this evening.

Thanks, let me know what your DH says! I''m sure there are much cheaper routes than Columbia, but from everything I can find to read, I don''t believe there''s a way to be certified without a masters, unfortunately. There seem to be two different programs, but both take about 2 years and both give you an MA at the end of it. One of the paths did involve teaching and getting paid while earning the masters, so that might be what you''re talking about. But the masters is still required at some point. What did your DH find out? If you have other resources I would be glad to read them! The information out there is pretty confusing.

 

[oobiecoo]

Of course there are some nicer districts where the kids are more responsible, have less attitude, etc. And if you can teach the AP classes then its a little better as well. My friend that I mentioned earlier... she searched and searched and didn''t find a teaching job for over a year after she graduated. She ended up back at our old private school where the kids are much better behaved and try hard. She isn''t very happy there though for some reason. Is it possible for you to sign up to substitute for the rest of the school year. You should really get in there and see what its like.

 

[elrohwen]

Swimmer, thank you for chiming in!

Right now I am focusing on NY state, something in the Hudson Valley or more northern - definitely not NYC

I imagine there would be less competition for jobs in these regions, but it is probably still not easy. I definitely wouldn''t want to spend 2 years on a masters and have no good job prospects.

The politics still interest me a lot. Do you find politics impact your reviews and standing within the school? I''m used to politics running rampant and very negatively impacting certain people in their position. Do you find your periodic reviews to be very unfair? I imagine it would be difficult to deal with getting a bad review because some parents were crazy, or based solely on test scores in year you happened to have a bad class. I imagine these things happen, but I have no concept about how often.

Finally, how do you deal with teaching the same thing year after year? Last night DH said that he thought I would get extremely bored with teaching after 5 years or so of going over the same stuff. Do you find new challenges to keep you going ever year? Or does the material become extremely boring? I certainly don''t want to get into something that has a limited potential as a career.

 

[swimmer]

I NEVER get bored. Remember, you are teaching the students first, not the subject. New kids every year, and those who come back for more punishment they are older and more interesting. Also some years I teach genocide studies, some years psychology, but always world history with these other classes, sometimes with another AP English teacher, sometimes solo, sometimes high needs kids, most years AP, (also high needs kids!), but I also chose to get certified as an admin so now spend part of my day in the classroom and part doing administrative stuff. Each one makes me appreciate the other more. Few teachers teach just physics or chem, there are different levels, different electives, we have "forensic chem" as a semester elective and astronomy as well as applied physics which is to keep srs taking a science by letting them blow things up, go skiing, and to theme parks. Lots of investigation, lots of writing, lots of experiential ed. That class could never get old and it changes every semester based upon resources, like ReMax brought their hot air balloon by, and the science museum wanted help designing an exhibit. My heavily tattooed and pierced friend teaches this class, shockingly is is rather popular

Yes, I am glad you are getting on the masters train of thought, I can't imagine getting a job up here without one...look into an MAT, they take less time, and are more focused on subject matter so can give you credit for grad level math courses you have already taken. Most are 12 month programs. I think Hofstra has this, but look around your area, so many options out there. I would caution about diploma mills...no one hires Phoenix grads...online certs for teaching are a joke. Um, virtual kids? not possible. I teach online history classes sometimes, but how to teach? that would be like med school via snail mail.

Politics...really and truly, it varies from building to building. I have seen in my building it change over the last 10yrs. A generation of catty women left and we sort of sighed, got a new principal, and life has been so much better! I would not however want to teach at a nearby middle school who has a vindictive troll of a principal. So, yet again, i'm gonna say it just depends. The one litmus test I know of is right after the bell rings, are the teachers still in the school? How fast does the teacher parkinglot empty? In my casual observation, better communities of teachers stay longer working together by choice. They leave to go to get food together, etc. This is not something you can necessarily ask a principal about...he/she might have no clue. But if the lot is empty (rats jumping a sinking ship) right when the bell rings, don't teach there and don't send your kids there. I promise.

Regarding reviews, I've never encountered a bad situation with this...and my first dept chair here hated me (we were just very different people). But I have heard horror stories here on PS. Not really IRL, but MA is a strong union state you know, like CT, so teachers have protection and a network of support. A friend in TN was fired for being outed as a lesbian. That is wildly illegal here and actually we really really try to hire a diverse population that reflects our students, so it wouldn't hurt her either.

 

[elrohwen]

Date: 2/19/2010 11:56:13 AM
Author: swimmer
I NEVER get bored. Remember, you are teaching the students first, not the subject. New kids every year, and those who come back for more punishment they are older and more interesting. Also some years I teach genocide studies, some years psychology, but always world history with these other classes, sometimes with another AP English teacher, sometimes solo, sometimes high needs kids, most years AP, (also high needs kids!), but I also chose to get certified as an admin so now spend part of my day in the classroom and part doing administrative stuff. Each one makes me appreciate the other more. Few teachers teach just physics or chem, there are different levels, different electives, we have 'forensic chem' as a semester elective and astronomy as well as applied physics which is to keep srs taking a science by letting them blow things up, go skiing, and to theme parks. Lots of investigation, lots of writing, lots of experiential ed. That class could never get old and it changes every semester based upon resources, like ReMax brought their hot air balloon by, and the science museum wanted help designing an exhibit. My heavily tattooed and pierced friend teaches this class, shockingly is is rather popular

Yes, I am glad you are getting on the masters train of thought, I can't imagine getting a job up here without one...look into an MAT, they take less time, and are more focused on subject matter so can give you credit for grad level math courses you have already taken. Most are 12 month programs. I think Hofstra has this, but look around your area, so many options out there. I would caution about diploma mills...no one hires Phoenix grads...online certs for teaching are a joke. Um, virtual kids? not possible. I teach online history classes sometimes, but how to teach? that would be like med school via snail mail.

Politics...really and truly, it varies from building to building. I have seen in my building it change over the last 10yrs. A generation of catty women left and we sort of sighed, got a new principal, and life has been so much better! I would not however want to teach at a nearby middle school who has a vindictive troll of a principal. So, yet again, i'm gonna say it just depends. The one litmus test I know of is right after the bell rings, are the teachers still in the school? How fast does the teacher parkinglot empty? In my casual observation, better communities of teachers stay longer working together by choice. They leave to go to get food together, etc. This is not something you can necessarily ask a principal about...he/she might have no clue. But if the lot is empty (rats jumping a sinking ship) right when the bell rings, don't teach there and don't send your kids there. I promise.

Regarding reviews, I've never encountered a bad situation with this...and my first dept chair here hated me (we were just very different people). But I have heard horror stories here on PS. Not really IRL, but MA is a strong union state you know, like CT, so teachers have protection and a network of support. A friend in TN was fired for being outed as a lesbian. That is wildly illegal here and actually we really really try to hire a diverse population that reflects our students, so it wouldn't hurt her either.

In the NY system, you get certified in a very specific area - Chem 7-12, Physics 7-12, etc. So that's why I have a worry that after a few years I'm going to be so sick of chemistry that I just want to teach math/physics/whatever, but I won't be able to. You can get a new certification I suppose, with some extra work. Not sure how possible that is though. That's something I'll have to ask a real teacher. It might not be too hard or it might take a lot of time and effort.

A friend is putting me in touch with a high school math teacher in CT, so I'll be able to ask her specific questions. I'm also looking for a friend of a friend in NY to talk with and if nobody comes up I might just get in touch with a local NY school district and ask if I can shadow someone.

Very good advice about watcing the teacher's parking lot! I love that. Not something I would've thought of but it makes tons of sense.

eta: I'm hearing a lot about paperwork. What kind of paperwork is this?

 

[swimmer]

E, Mass is the same way. Well, history is a big/vague field so I teach psych, econ, law, business, sociology, world, us, modern, ancient, and topical stuff too, but science works similarly even though there are distinct subject tests.

My friend who teaches forensic chem is certified chem. Then she also teaches some electives to spice it up, but most of her day is chem in various levels from honors for frosh to remedial for jrs. There is no oceanography or astronomy certifications so she has also taught those. Applied physics is a different class than physics, then there are the 2 diff physics AP classes. There is also remedial "science." Seriously, variety is not the thing to worry about, it is having too many preps that can kill ya! Also you can teach up to 20% out of your certification field. So sometimes a science teacher could be teaching a math course if the numbers didn''t line up just right. This is rare, but might make you valuable as a candidate. Once you are certified in one subject area in order to get certified in another you need a certain number of graduate credits and to pass the subject area...and to pay the DOE something for their precious time...then you are certified. Much easier than the first cert.

Paperwork...well, huge numbers of special needs kids who need their daily assignments written down for them, need all notes in advance, daily after school tutoring sessions, daily updates to parents...I don''t teach anyone younger than 16yrs, but various processing disorders mean that you can be doing this for several kids even at the AP level. When co-teaching with a special ed teacher you have to meet outside of school time to plan b/c you won''t have common planning time. Ed plans are re-written every year and every teacher has to evaluate each of his/her special needs (IEP) or disabled (504) students'' progress over the past year and go to a meeting to craft this plan with their advocate and parents. This is about 90hours a year unpaid afterschool or you can give up your planning period to do it. These are necessary but hard, some parents want you to magically fix their kid during school while the parent provides no reinforcement at home, others don''t care, but most are rewarding to work with...its just that the bad apples can suck up to 6 hours a week out of you...when teaching a full load of 5 classes a day, our cap is 26 students per class. Some are smaller...but some are not! I know some places have higher caps than that.

To me, learning more than 120 names in the first week is so killer! figure if you teach Jrs that you will write letters of rec for 30% of your students. That is unpaid weekend work with each letter taking at least an hour. Save them all and use them as templates while inserting new details and anecdotes and changing all names is the only advice i can give on that on. Only chaperone every other dance or other activity that you are asked to do, 8 dances a year means a ton of unpaid time watching teens make out while dressed totally inappropriately. My least fave is selling concessions at football and hockey games...has to be done occasionally and I grin while doing it, but again, unpaid and another friday night you can''t spend doing things you want to do.

Other time sucks that vary by district but are generally within this range; 2xs monthly school-wide meetings on our vision, common assessment rubrics, terror threat training, cpr, restraint training, lots of random mandates like learning that kids who don''t speak English might not understand you. Uh huh, I get that. How to use the defibrilator, smartboards, new online gradebooks, yeah, some random stuff, those are after school but required parts of the contract. The daily grading of quizzes, tests, papers, well, that depends upon you and that is all out of school b/c your only "planning time" is devoted to making photocopies and running errands around the school. 4-6 days a year we have a 7am to 9pm work day for parent teacher nights, concerned parents come in and you chat with them and try to remember who you are talking to. Oh, lunch at my school is 21 minutes long. At least I never have lunch duty (preventing food fights) and one block a day is a duty. Study hall is fine, bathroom duty blows. Hopefully you can use that time to grade...if there is wireless there you have hit the jackpot!

I really really love my job! but wow, reading this it doesn''t sound that fun. I do choose to coach and sponsor clubs too, and field trips, international summer trips, meetings with parents and school committee for all of these...it does get exhausting. I sometimes forget to do the most basic paperwork required each class...attendance!

 

[elrohwen]

That does sound totally exhausting! Haha. I''m really thinking this through carefully - it seems like there are so many negatives that you really really have to love the positives to make it worthwhile (basically what you and Maria and everyone else has been saying). DH thinks going for teaching is a "safe" option over getting another engineering position, but I''m trying to explain to him how daunting it really is! At this point it seems like the more difficult option when compared with waiting around for another engineering job - but since I do think I could like it and be good at it, I want to give it all the research I can before settling with the easier route.

I''m going to chat with a Greenwich teacher (friend of a friend) and see if I can shadow her. Then maybe if I''m still into it I"ll look for a NY teacher to get a more realistic view of that state. I think this will help me get a feel for whether it''s manageble chaos or if it really is as overwhelming as it seems.

Thank you so so much for your thoughtful advice! You''ve been a huge help.

 

[zoebartlett]

Date: 2/18/2010 2:17:52 PM
Author:elrohwen
Lately I''ve been thinking of getting in to teaching. Maybe it''s that I''m having a hard time finding a job in my field (that''s also anywhere near DH''s job) or because my mom''s nagging about me becoming a teach is paying off

I have a BS in chemical engineering and would love to teach chemistry, physics, or math at the high school level. I actually tutored a lot of kids in chemistry during high school and I think I''d be a pretty good teacher. I''ve also been told that there is always a shortage of math and science teachers (is this true?) I have a lot of questions though!


Education: From my understanding, most schools require a masters in education. However, I went to a small private high school and we had a lot of teachers who were getting their masters as they taught us (making much less money than they would at a public school, which is fine). Is this still possible? Is it realistic to think I could do the same? Or would I need to get a masters degree before anything?


First Job: What kind of job would I currently be qualified for? Substitute only? I''m not really sure how it works - would someone just hire me to begin teaching full time? When do they do their hiring - summer? Spring?


I guess, other than applying for masters programs right now, I don''t really know where I could begin. And part of me doesn''t want to commit to a few years of grad school if I haven''t even had experience.


Thanks for your help in advance!

I just saw this. I don''t have experience teaching at the high school level (and I''m not science oriented, if that''s the right phrasing), but I wanted to wish you luck, whatever you decide. Teaching is a great profession, and yes, there are negatives in the profession, but overall, it''s awesome. The best part is when the light goes on and you see a kid *get it* and understand whatever concept you''re teaching. It''s really cool when they''re 6, anyway.

 

[zoebartlett]

I'm in the middle of reading the rest of the thread (I had just read your first post when I replied). You mentioned being scared to just jump into an advanced degree, and I wanted to share my experience.

I had worked in children's publishing for a well-known company in Boston and then I got a job in NH (my home state) with an educational pub. co. I hated my new job and I left after 3 months. Before I left, I had to think about my next steps, and I knew that publishing wasn't what I wanted in my future. One thing that working in children's publishing taught me about was the quality of children's literature. I wanted to be more involved with the kids who were reading the books I had helped to create. I decided to contact my state university and ask about their masters programs in reading and the (elementary) education certification options. I was in the process of applying to grad school when I left my job, and I had the chance to go to my old elementary school and observe a few classes and I spent a lot of time with my first grade teacher (that was fun!). In the span of 3 months, I went from getting one new job to leaving it and spontaneously applying to grad school (being nervous the whole time). It was honestly one of the best decisions I've ever made. Sure it was a nerve-wracking time, but it's definitely worth it.

Okay, so that was longer than I had intended, but I hope you got something helpful from my ramblings.

 

[elrohwen]

Thanks, Zoe! Everyone on this thread has given me a lot to think about. I''m gathering that there are a lot of negatives, but if it''s something you really love, it''s totally worth it. I just need to figure out if it''s something I would totally love

I will admit that I''m worried I would get into it and be completely burnt out and overwhelmed after the first year.

 

[zoebartlett]

You''re welcome El! I''m not gonna lie -- I think teaching HS (and science, at that) sounds really hard! Plus, the kids are so big!

I hate No Child Left Behind with a passion, and it creates a whole lot of red tape in my opinion (restrictions here, tests there...). That''s one of the negatives of the profession. I wish administrators and elected officials would trust teachers to teach in the best way that suits their students, not the way admins and officials THINK is best. They''re not the ones in the classrooms working with kids on a daily basis. Okay, I''ll get off my soap box now. To me, that''s the biggest issue I have with my profession, but I DO love it.

I''d definitely make a lot of phone calls and see who you can shadow (as you mentioned). That''s a great idea and I''m sure it will help you sort things out and see if it''s the path you want to take. Good luck!

 

[elrohwen]

Date: 2/19/2010 6:52:07 PM
Author: ZoeBartlett
You''re welcome El! I''m not gonna lie -- I think teaching HS (and science, at that) sounds really hard! Plus, the kids are so big!

I hate No Child Left Behind with a passion, and it creates a whole lot of red tape in my opinion (restrictions here, tests there...). That''s one of the negatives of the profession. I wish administrators and elected officials would trust teachers to teach in the best way that suits their students, not the way admins and officials THINK is best. They''re not the ones in the classrooms working with kids on a daily basis. Okay, I''ll get off my soap box now. To me, that''s the biggest issue I have with my profession, but I DO love it.

I''d definitely make a lot of phone calls and see who you can shadow (as you mentioned). That''s a great idea and I''m sure it will help you sort things out and see if it''s the path you want to take. Good luck!

I definitely worry about a lot of this stuff too! NY is very geared towards the Regents exams - much more than I remember my schools caring about standardized tests (I grew up in PA). I have a feeling (and have read some first hand experiences) that there is a lot of "teaching to the test" that is expected. It seem silly to get a 2 year degree just to regurgitate test questions that have shown up every year. I actually think CT seems like the better place to teach, but there is really no chance that we''ll stay in this state long term (we almost want to move to NY now) so it doesn''t seem worth pursuing.

But as you ladies have pointed out, if it''s something I feel I''ll love, it would be worth it! Thanks for taking the time to share your experiences, even if you teach teh little kids

(and by the way, I kind of think little kids are scary! not in general, but for me personally because I don''t relate to them as well as older kids for some reason).