Poll: Prenup?

[lyra]

The problem is, without a prenup, the divorce also becomes an emotional thing, when it should be a business thing.

Are you pre-supposing divorce? Sheesh, you have a very tolerant girlfriend. Marriage is emotional, divorce is emotional too. Your g/f said she'd sign, so good for you, sounds like you have nothing to worry about.

 

[stepcutgirl]

I disagree that divorce is a business transaction. If you view it as such then you must view marriage as a business transaction. You are basically then saying that you are only getting married because it's in your best interest now if you feel that divorce should be treated as a business transaction and should the marriage no longer be in your best interest then divorce will occur. You can't treat one as an emotional decision and one as a business decision. They both are either based on emotion or on business.

 

[dawnabee]

I guess my belief is everyone gets whats coming to them one way or another. If you don't lose your money one way, you can bet your bottom dollar you will lose it another! I voted I'd never sign one and therefore I'd never ask someone to sign one either. I understand the cause for them but personally its not my cup of tea. If FI asked me to sign one I'd take my chances and have to walk away.

 

[boredstiff]

The problem is, without a prenup, the divorce also becomes an emotional thing, when it should be a business thing.

Are you pre-supposing divorce? Sheesh, you have a very tolerant girlfriend. Marriage is emotional, divorce is emotional too. Your g/f said she'd sign, so good for you, sounds like you have nothing to worry about.

For the record, I take offense at your statement. But, no I am not presupposing divorce. It happens -- 50% of the time as a matter of fact. And prudent people plan for life's uncertainties. Like some people buy health insurance, in case they get sick. Are they presupposing they'll get cancer? No. Some people buy life insurance. Are they presupposing they'll die while their kids are under 18? No, they are just being prudent.

 

[boredstiff]

I disagree that divorce is a business transaction. If you view it as such then you must view marriage as a business transaction. You are basically then saying that you are only getting married because it's in your best interest now if you feel that divorce should be treated as a business transaction and should the marriage no longer be in your best interest then divorce will occur. You can't treat one as an emotional decision and one as a business decision. They both are either based on emotion or on business.

No, I think marriage is an emotional decision. If it were a business decision, I wouldn't be getting married. Divorce, once the decision has been made to separate is a business decision regarding how to divide assets. Otherwise, you fall in the trap of fighting over the ice cube trays. You suggested that yourself when you gave the example of your husband cheating and fathering kids with other women.

 

[stepcutgirl]

Sigh...we're playing the lawyer game now.

If you see separation as the emotional decision and divorce as the follow up business end of the deal then surely you see living together as an emotional decision and marriage as the business end of that. So why get married?

I do see your point, I really do but there is IMO nothing business like about divorce. Nobody gets a divorce unless something goes wrong in the relationship and there is a disconnect between the two parties. Its completely emotional.

After talking about this with fiancee tonight he said that for him its important to step out of the attorney shoes when it comes to the relationship and step into the boyfriend shoes. He said at times it isn't easy but that it is essential to the relationship.

IMO asking her to sign a prenup that states she could walk away with only assets is you saying your money is more important than her in the long run. Her agreeing to sign it says that she is probably going to get screwed out of the deal but that she is willing to do it if it means being with you. Just my .02. If she is willing to sign it and doesn't have any issues you should consider yourself fortunate.

 

[boredstiff]

Sigh...we're playing the lawyer game now.

If you see separation as the emotional decision and divorce as the follow up business end of the deal then surely you see living together as an emotional decision and marriage as the business end of that. So why get married?

I do see your point, I really do but there is IMO nothing business like about divorce. Nobody gets a divorce unless something goes wrong in the relationship and there is a disconnect between the two parties. Its completely emotional.

After talking about this with fiancee tonight he said that for him its important to step out of the attorney shoes when it comes to the relationship and step into the boyfriend shoes. He said at times it isn't easy but that it is essential to the relationship.

IMO asking her to sign a prenup that states she could walk away with only assets is you saying your money is more important than her in the long run. Her agreeing to sign it says that she is probably going to get screwed out of the deal but that she is willing to do it if it means being with you. Just my .02. If she is willing to sign it and doesn't have any issues you should consider yourself fortunate.

I see what you are saying too. We kind of got lost in the weeds here. All I was saying was that, god forbid, if there was a divorce, it would be a lot easier with a prenup than without. You've already negotiated what happens in advance with cooler heads.

I think agreeing to split the community property evenly for people who make very different salaries is a fair offer from the higher earner. A lot of other prenups do it the other way around and offer a lump sum. I thought I was being fair, but with all the dissenters on this thread, who knows.

 

[pennquaker09]

Personally, I don't believe in prenups. I feel like if you love someone and you've made the decision to commit to a life together, you shouldn't need or want a prenup. I'll go so far to say that if you want a prenup, you probably don't completely love/trust the person, and therefore, you shouldn't be getting married. I'm not so naive as to think all marriages will last forever, but I don't believe in divorce, I believe in marrying one person and spending my life with them until He says my time is up.

Now, I guess I should also add that since I can't legally get married, my opinions should be taken with a grain of salt. However, whether I was marrying a woman or a man, I would still feel the same. Money can be used for great things, but it is also a rather evil thing. I don't like the idea of being a person that putting my relationships with people below money. Because at the end of the day, whether one wants to admit it or not, if you want someone to sign a prenup, you're putting money and things first.

 

[Trekkie]

I am newly engaged girl but I would never consider getting married without a prenup. In fact. I'm insisting on it, even though he is not terribly keen.

Like many of you here, he feels that one should not enter marriage while planning for divorce. I say it's incredibly stupid not to.

Besides, it's not only planning for the sake of divorce. What if either of us wants to start a business? Here in South Africa it would be perfectly legal to transfer assets into the name of the non-business owner to protect the family. For instance, if we jointly own a home and he starts a business, he would transfer ownership of the home to me. This means if his business ever fails and leaves huge debt, our family would still have a roof over their heads. Or what if one spouse dies unexpectedly and leaves a lot of debt? Would you be prepared to sacrifice your home and children's university education for the sake of proving a principle?

Yes, I am getting married for better or worse, but I see no reason why we should not plan ahead in order to minimize the worse.

 

[SeattleSweetheart]

I am a woman and I asked for the pre-nup. No, I am not rich.

I am planning on going to grad school and I know that some marriages don't last during an intensively stressful time. I wanted to show my future husband that I had no interest in having him support me during school and then if the marriage (god forbid) doesn't last he would loose out.

My first marriage didn't last because of multiple reasons but one main one was that he couldn't hold a job and racked up a bunch of debt. I had been responsible and had accumulated retirement through my job. I had no debt. Because we had no pre-nup, he could have taken 1/2 of what I had carefully put away and forced me to pay half his debt even though none of it had benefited me, and in fact had resulted from his refusing to work 12 months a year. I vowed after that I would never, ever be financially vulnerable like that again.

I love my current husband very, very much and I plan on being married to him until the day I die, but I would not have married him if he had not agreed to a pre-nup. I do believe that money plays a very big part in marriage and that the license that is granted for marriage is just like a business license. All the other lovey dovey stuff that goes with marriage doesn't required a piece of paper from the State to make it legal.

I know there are many people on pricescope who totally disagree with me. But I almost got really, really burned and that scared me for the rest of my life. I got the pre-nup to protect my husband from my future school debt and to protect me if he makes some bad financial decisions. Working through the pre-nup process showed me that my husband and I can talk about money without issue and that bodes well for our future. I wish pre-nups were required for marriage because they force people to talk about money. Money issues are one of the top reasons for divorce. Maybe if pre-nups were required there would be less divorce.

 

[Cehrabehra]

when my husband and I got married we were very young and had absolutely nothing (including educations)... I had a couple thousand dollars and he was in the military. We'd known each other since we were 5 and 3 years old and truly planned to spend our lives together for better or worse so not only did it not come up, it would have been ridiculous to even consider one IMO because absolutely everything we have we made together - whether he actually earned the money or not. 19 years, 3 children - I put "I don't know" because I haven't put any real thought into it and hope I never have to. I understand them, but there is something like an escape clause there that bothers me. Still, you never know... it can be good for the woman to have them - love to have a nice clause like if I cheat I get nothing, if you cheat I get everything lol

ETA money issues have never been a source of contention in our relationship... the biggest thing in our marriage is how different we are about how we organize things lol

 

[Trekkie]

I am a woman and I asked for the pre-nup. No, I am not rich.

I am planning on going to grad school and I know that some marriages don't last during an intensively stressful time. I wanted to show my future husband that I had no interest in having him support me during school and then if the marriage (god forbid) doesn't last he would loose out.

My first marriage didn't last because of multiple reasons but one main one was that he couldn't hold a job and racked up a bunch of debt. I had been responsible and had accumulated retirement through my job. I had no debt. Because we had no pre-nup, he could have taken 1/2 of what I had carefully put away and forced me to pay half his debt even though none of it had benefited me, and in fact had resulted from his refusing to work 12 months a year. I vowed after that I would never, ever be financially vulnerable like that again.

I love my current husband very, very much and I plan on being married to him until the day I die, but I would not have married him if he had not agreed to a pre-nup. I do believe that money plays a very big part in marriage and that the license that is granted for marriage is just like a business license. All the other lovey dovey stuff that goes with marriage doesn't required a piece of paper from the State to make it legal.

I know there are many people on pricescope who totally disagree with me. But I almost got really, really burned and that scared me for the rest of my life. I got the pre-nup to protect my husband from my future school debt and to protect me if he makes some bad financial decisions. Working through the pre-nup process showed me that my husband and I can talk about money without issue and that bodes well for our future. I wish pre-nups were required for marriage because they force people to talk about money. Money issues are one of the top reasons for divorce. Maybe if pre-nups were required there would be less divorce.

Thank you for so eloquently stating what I was trying to explain!

I hate it when people say 'why do you want a prenup? Don't you love him?' I try to explain yes, I do love him, and that's why I want a prenup, to protect him and the family from debt and other situations life throws at us.

Like you, I've been married before. The first marriage ended up in divorce less than two years later. We had no prenup and I could very easily have taken him to the cleaners, insisting on support and a share of the assets. I didn't, because what he had was not mine. I walked away from that marriage with nothing.

My next serious relationship was with a Greek multimillionaire. When we split, he insisted that I kept the cars he'd given me earlier in our relationship, and he insisted on giving me the two homes we had lived in together, the business he had started for me, as well as a lump sum of money. I refused and again walked away with nothing.

Today, I'm engaged to the man of my dreams. I still have very little more than nothing, but I do have self-respect and the respect of my exhusband and the Greek.

This self-respect insists that I can make my own way in the world - I don't need a man to provide what my hard work can earn.

 

[zhuzhu]

Prenup is appropriate for some couples but not others, just like love is the foundation for some marriages but definitely not for all marriages. Many marry for love, but some marry for financial security, social pressure, desire to "fit in", or whatever the reasons there are!

If both you and your future spouse accept the idea of prenup as a necessity to a more secure future, all the more power to you both. What is bad is when one person insists on it when the other have reservation and feelings of resentment towards it. It is a deeply personal "couple's" decision and should be made with a lot of thoughtfulness and hopefully very little selfish motivations.

 

[Autumnovember]

SO and I have talked about pre-nups. Before we get married, we're going to seek legal advice about it and hopefully write up a contract that suits us both. I have absolutely no problems signing one at all.

 

[diva rose]

Prenups - I'm not for or against it - it really depends on the couple and their situation/beliefs.

However I have an issue with this poll. To assume the women are the ones who are asked by the men to sign a prenup isn't right.
Now days some women have more assets and earn more than their partner.
Maybe it's a good idea to modify the words of the poll.

 

[Indylady]

The poll is missing the answer choice that a woman asks her fiancee for a pre-nup.

Pre-nups aren't all "bad". Many take on religious pre-nups, or marital contracts that guarantee the wife is offered some financial support by the husband in the case divorce. Some couples make a show of their love by making this sum very high, in effect saying something like, "We're so sure we're not going to get divorced that I'll put my $$ down to show it!" while others make theirs $10 cause they're also sure they're not getting divorced, and basically saying, "We won't need that money, so who cares what we put down?"

Would I sign one? It depends on what the heck is written in it.

 

[Jennifer W]

My views on pre-nups are largely irrelevant, since they have no legal standing where I live. You can sign what you want, but it isn't binding and the statutory provisions are what will be applied whether you like it or not.

That said, if people in areas where such agreements are binding wish to have them, then that's none of my business. We all do what we feel is right, right?

I personally would not sign such an agreement, I would walk away from that person and find someone else - that way he would have the legal certainty of keeping all of his assets entirely to himself.

Jen

 

[Yimmers]

My views on pre-nups are largely irrelevant, since they have no legal standing where I live. You can sign what you want, but it isn't binding and the statutory provisions are what will be applied whether you like it or not.

That said, if people in areas where such agreements are binding wish to have them, then that's none of my business. We all do what we feel is right, right?

I personally would not sign such an agreement, I would walk away from that person and find someone else - that way he would have the legal certainty of keeping all of his assets entirely to himself.

Jen

But I think at least one of the posters pointed out that the prenup was to make sure she would not potentially be subjected to another situation where she could be liable for someone else's debt which occurred during the marriage, as well as have to pay alimony for a dead beat spouse.

Whether you like it or not, if you are asked to sign a prenup, you should seek independent legal advice. Could it be a red flag for the marriage? Who knows. A lot of marriages end over disputes with money. Maybe it could lead to a good discussion about marriage finances.

Boredstiff, I'm going to assume that you have advised your FI to seek independent counsel and that consulting with them, she's fine with the consequences. To anyone who decides they don't need to seek sound legal advice...well...that's why lawyers still stay in business.

 

[Dancing Fire]

i don't have a problem with signing a prenup if my FI was loaded with $$$s.

 

[Lady_Disdain]

I wouldn't be offended by being asked to sign a prenup, but I might be offended by the contents of one. As long as it is a fair document, covering both partners, then no problem. If the document was deliberately screwing me, then I would rethink what sort of partner that person was and his motives.

Because of my life plan, I could get in serious financial problems under the current divorce laws, which would lead to a very inequitable divide (because of what would be considered joint property and my investment philophy). So, even though I would never enter a marriage without considering it for ever (I take vows very, very seriously), I would have a prenup anyway, just in case.

 

[Jennifer W]

My views on pre-nups are largely irrelevant, since they have no legal standing where I live. You can sign what you want, but it isn't binding and the statutory provisions are what will be applied whether you like it or not.

That said, if people in areas where such agreements are binding wish to have them, then that's none of my business. We all do what we feel is right, right?

I personally would not sign such an agreement, I would walk away from that person and find someone else - that way he would have the legal certainty of keeping all of his assets entirely to himself.

Jen

But I think at least one of the posters pointed out that the prenup was to make sure she would not potentially be subjected to another situation where she could be liable for someone else's debt which occurred during the marriage, as well as have to pay alimony for a dead beat spouse.

Whether you like it or not, if you are asked to sign a prenup, you should seek independent legal advice. Could it be a red flag for the marriage? Who knows. A lot of marriages end over disputes with money. Maybe it could lead to a good discussion about marriage finances.

Boredstiff, I'm going to assume that you have advised your FI to seek independent counsel and that consulting with them, she's fine with the consequences. To anyone who decides they don't need to seek sound legal advice...well...that's why lawyers still stay in business.

It may be different in the US, but where I live, you can't be held responsible for a spouse's debt unless you're a co-debtor on the item, i.e. you take the debt on jointly. Otherwise, it's the debt of the spouse who signed for it. Regardless, I personally would not sign a pre-nup even if it did have any legal status, which was the original question.

ETA I didn't answer the poll because my gender isn't relevant to my opinion of pre-nuptial contracts. Nor is my opinion relevant to anyone who wants one. Each to their own.

 

[boredstiff]

Brant vs. Brant: Divorce Celebrity Style

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/22/fashion/22Brant.html?hpw

The union of Peter and Stephanie Brant was always a bit odd, and now it has turned into one of the most bitter, high-profile divorces in years.

By the time Brant v. Brant goes to trial on Sept. 20, the two sides will have generated more than 12,000 pages of public divorce documents (with thousands more sealed), paid millions of dollars in lawyers fees and fractured an already delicate cadre of family and friends forced to take sides.

Among their neighbors in Greenwich, the enclave of hedge fund managers and Connecticut bluebloods, the reaction to the Brants’ nasty dispute is largely one of witnessing a car wreck they want to move quickly past.

At the most basic level, this has turned into a case of “he said, she said,” with charges ranging from infidelity to rampant drug use. To complicate matters, Mr. Brant, whose estimated net worth is near $500 million, did not sign a prenuptial agreement.

. . .

NO one falls in love thinking they will end up sparring over sconces. But that’s what happened on Oct. 13, 2009, when a moving van arrived at the couple’s winter estate in Palm Beach, Fla. Ms. Seymour needed furniture for her rented Greenwich home. Without telling her estranged husband what she was doing, Ms. Seymour had the movers load almost 90 percent of the contents of the house into the van — the children’s bedroom sets, artwork, silver and china, five chandeliers and about a dozen sconces — which she planned to take to her new home, court records say.

 

[Iowa Lizzy]

DH and I have a prenup. Initiated by me, but he was happy to sign. We both came into the marriage with our own money. I happen to have quite a bit more. I get supremely offended when people assume that prenups are "cold" or only signed because you plan to divorce.

 

[vbnet]

Just to set the background, I've been married 25 yrs. The only prenup I would have signed is even steven if we just decide to go seperate ways, 80/20 (my favor) if he's caught cheating. And at that, I feel it's a generous offer. It's ok to stipulate 80/20 the other way if I were caught cheating. Prenups to me are setting up the possiblity of the split just as you should be planning on staying together forever. I realize many people these days think they understand til death do us part but when the relationship gets hard feel they don't deserve that. Just my $.02

 

[vbnet]

I am newly engaged girl but I would never consider getting married without a prenup. In fact. I'm insisting on it, even though he is not terribly keen.

Like many of you here, he feels that one should not enter marriage while planning for divorce. I say it's incredibly stupid not to.

Besides, it's not only planning for the sake of divorce. What if either of us wants to start a business? Here in South Africa it would be perfectly legal to transfer assets into the name of the non-business owner to protect the family. For instance, if we jointly own a home and he starts a business, he would transfer ownership of the home to me. This means if his business ever fails and leaves huge debt, our family would still have a roof over their heads. Or what if one spouse dies unexpectedly and leaves a lot of debt? Would you be prepared to sacrifice your home and children's university education for the sake of proving a principle?

Yes, I am getting married for better or worse, but I see no reason why we should not plan ahead in order to minimize the worse.

I'm not an attorney, but I believe this could be also protected with a trust.

 

[onedrop]

I am a woman and I asked for the pre-nup. No, I am not rich.

I am planning on going to grad school and I know that some marriages don't last during an intensively stressful time. I wanted to show my future husband that I had no interest in having him support me during school and then if the marriage (god forbid) doesn't last he would loose out.

My first marriage didn't last because of multiple reasons but one main one was that he couldn't hold a job and racked up a bunch of debt. I had been responsible and had accumulated retirement through my job. I had no debt. Because we had no pre-nup, he could have taken 1/2 of what I had carefully put away and forced me to pay half his debt even though none of it had benefited me, and in fact had resulted from his refusing to work 12 months a year. I vowed after that I would never, ever be financially vulnerable like that again.

I love my current husband very, very much and I plan on being married to him until the day I die, but I would not have married him if he had not agreed to a pre-nup. I do believe that money plays a very big part in marriage and that the license that is granted for marriage is just like a business license. All the other lovey dovey stuff that goes with marriage doesn't required a piece of paper from the State to make it legal.

I know there are many people on pricescope who totally disagree with me. But I almost got really, really burned and that scared me for the rest of my life. I got the pre-nup to protect my husband from my future school debt and to protect me if he makes some bad financial decisions. Working through the pre-nup process showed me that my husband and I can talk about money without issue and that bodes well for our future. I wish pre-nups were required for marriage because they force people to talk about money. Money issues are one of the top reasons for divorce. Maybe if pre-nups were required there would be less divorce.

We don't have a prenup but I tend to agree with SeattleSweetheart's reasoning behind why one should be in place. I don't think most people go into marriage thinking that divorce is inevitable for them, but the reality is that is does happen. To me there is no issue in having an agreement that allows for an unfortunate split to be possibly less contentious.

 

[vbnet]

I am a woman and I asked for the pre-nup. No, I am not rich.

I am planning on going to grad school and I know that some marriages don't last during an intensively stressful time. I wanted to show my future husband that I had no interest in having him support me during school and then if the marriage (god forbid) doesn't last he would loose out.

My first marriage didn't last because of multiple reasons but one main one was that he couldn't hold a job and racked up a bunch of debt. I had been responsible and had accumulated retirement through my job. I had no debt. Because we had no pre-nup, he could have taken 1/2 of what I had carefully put away and forced me to pay half his debt even though none of it had benefited me, and in fact had resulted from his refusing to work 12 months a year. I vowed after that I would never, ever be financially vulnerable like that again.

I love my current husband very, very much and I plan on being married to him until the day I die, but I would not have married him if he had not agreed to a pre-nup. I do believe that money plays a very big part in marriage and that the license that is granted for marriage is just like a business license. All the other lovey dovey stuff that goes with marriage doesn't required a piece of paper from the State to make it legal.

I know there are many people on pricescope who totally disagree with me. But I almost got really, really burned and that scared me for the rest of my life. I got the pre-nup to protect my husband from my future school debt and to protect me if he makes some bad financial decisions. Working through the pre-nup process showed me that my husband and I can talk about money without issue and that bodes well for our future. I wish pre-nups were required for marriage because they force people to talk about money. Money issues are one of the top reasons for divorce. Maybe if pre-nups were required there would be less divorce.

Ok, even though I posted a different opinion, talking about $$ early is good. Planning your finances is good. So I guess just writing stuff down just in case can be good too.

 

[DivaDiamond007]

I didn't vote in the poll because it doesn't apply to me - I live in Ohio, which is a non-community property state and therefore prenups are not valid or enforceable.

If I lived in a community property state and one or both parties had significant assets then I would not be offened to be asked to sign one, considering the contents of the agreement were fair.

I work for a divorce attorney and sometimes divorcing people will fight tooth and nail over every little thing. We had a woman once insist that her ex return her "personal items" to her. Meaning her sex toys! And she said it on the record at the final hearing! The judge got a hearty laugh out of that one. In the end, when she went to the marital residence to collect her belongings she discovered that her ex sold said personal items to another woman, presumably his mistress! Ew ew ew ew!

 

[vbnet]

... and sometimes divorcing people will fight tooth and nail over every little thing. We had a woman once insist that her ex return her "personal items" to her. Meaning her sex toys! And she said it on the record at the final hearing! The judge got a hearty laugh out of that one. In the end, when she went to the marital residence to collect her belongings she discovered that her ex sold said personal items to another woman, presumably his mistress! Ew ew ew ew!

Thanks for making me laugh til I cried!!

 

[boredstiff]

I didn't vote in the poll because it doesn't apply to me - I live in Ohio, which is a non-community property state and therefore prenups are not valid or enforceable.

Actually, prenups are valid and enforceable in non community property states, including Ohio. See e.g., http://www.familylawsoftware.com/splitgen/sp/oh/prenuptialagreementenforceable.htm and http://www.ohioprenuptial.com/Welcome.html

I would go as far as to argue that prenups are more important in separate property states due to the uncertainty in how assets are divided.