Pianos

[DiamanteBlu]

You are out in San Francisco if I recall correctly. I pass through there periodically. [In fact, I was there a couple of weeks ago!]. Perhaps on a future trip I could invite myself over, maybe with some additional fellow pricescopers to drool over and maybe play this magnificent instrument?

 

[DiamanteBlu]

Date: 7/17/2009 12:28:47 PM
Author: Moh 10
Anyone even thinking of buying a piano from a modest one to the finest MUST read this book:


The Piano Book, Buying & Owning a New or Used Piano, by Larry Fine.

ISBN 1-929145-01-2.

It costs about $20.


It is Piano 101.


You can really get ripped off buying a piano and this book will teach you sooooo much not just about pianos but the piano market.


They also produce semi-annual supplements that update you on the newest prices and what is happening to the companies.


I will say this Steinway is the best piano MARKETER in the world, but not the best piano maker.

They have the public snowed, especially in the US where access to the many fine European makes is limited, a chicken and egg thing.

Over the years Steinway has done many unethical things in the background to keep other pianos brands off concert stages and strong-armed pianists who dare to play other brands.


Most Steinways are sold as status symbols to people who do not play and they take advantage of that.

Take your time to get educated about Steinway and all the other fine brands.


Then if you still want a Steinway carefully pick a good one and find the best tech in town to finish it.

Yes they do not bother with about 40 to 80 hours of the expensive final prep work.

Why should they?

Most customers are ignorant of this and don''t play anyway.

They just want a pretty piece of furniture with the Steinway logo, that has 3 pedals, and 88 keys that make sound.


But if your goal is to impress 99% of the public buy a Steinway, not one of the better but little-known pianos.

I love when someone comes over and says, ''Do you want a Steinway someday?''

Rant over.


Again some Steinways CAN be fabulous.

The two largest models the B and D get better materials and craftsmen working on them but still there are plenty of lemon Bs and Ds too.

A friend of mine is a piano technician. He rebuilds some magnificent old grands. Almost every time we talk he gives me grief for having a Steinway! LOL!

 

[John P]

Wow. Just... Wow. Moh, you take me back to university. A dear friend was a piano performance major while I was pursuing my ed degree. This thread brings back so many memories of discussions of piano & percussion pedigrees.

Date: 7/16/2009 5:20:32 PM
Author: Moh 10
Another unique thing Blüthner does:

Count the strings for this note.

The top two octaves or so have 4 strings per note instead of the standard 3.
The 4th string is not struck by the hammer though, because it is raised up slightly at the other end.
It resonates sympathetically on loud blows adding color and power to the highest treble where all pianos have trouble projecting.

! I recall this so well. I'm sure you know sympathetic resonance is a huge factor in percussive music too. A group of us did experiments with resonance cylinders and brass instruments, checking what frequencies caused a timpano, tom or snare tuned to X Y or Z pitch to respond most aggressively. The result was a friend writing a clever duet for "Euphonuim and Unmanned Percussion," performed by the euph player inside a circle of drums tuned to respond sympathetically - some with snares, sizzle mechanisms or ball-bearings laid-on. The only function of the percussionist was to keep some of the drums muted when they were not to be heard, and to play a buzz roll and cymbal splash at the end of the piece. It brought the house down at old Wazzu.

What a connoisseur you are.

 

[John P]

Date: 7/16/2009 4:56:41 PM
Author: Moh 10
One thing unique about Blüthner''s painos. . .
The hammers are sawn differently.
Hammers start out as a long continuous piece and are sawn into 88 hammers.

In all other pianos they are sawn perpendicular to the bottom and glued onto their shanks at angles that vary to match the changing angle of the strings.
On Blüthner they are sawn at varyng angles that vary to match the strings but glued on at 90 degrees to the hammer shank.
Blüthner claims this delivers more power from the hammer to the string.

I absolutely buy this. "Quality of sound" depends on implement and strength of impact. "Consistency of sound" depends on angle and velocity. You can have one without the other... It''s why two drummers using the same drums and sticks can sound completely different. But if you teach them uniform grip, velocity and angle of impact they will sound identical.

 

[Moh 10]

Thanks John.
I know you are a fellow musician and connoisseur.
If you are ever in town . . .

Date: 7/17/2009 12:24:50 AM
Author: musincy
Oh my, what a beautiful instrument. I'm a pianist myself. When I was five, I begged my parents to buy a piano so I could learn to play, and they bought a used upright. I've been playing ever since and I'm still in love with that same old piano... the sound is so beautiful and familiar. I'm not sure I will ever be able to give it up, but I would love to have a grand someday!


Thank you for sharing the photos. There's nothing like the piano...

You bring up an important point.
People get used to their piano even a modest one, even one that needs new hammers or strings and even how it sounds when out of tune.
Frequently piano technicians after tuning or improving a piano in a very legitimate way hear from their customers that they don't like it, and get asked to put it back the way it was.

We tell them to try it out for two weeks and give us a call.
The call never comes.

Also when piano shopping often times the owner of a modest pianos will not like the sound of a good piano - it is just soooo different to what they have become accustomed.
It is a real problem for shoppers and for piano salespeople.

 

[John P]

Date: 7/27/2009 5:21:10 PM
Author: zhuzhu
Hi Moh,

I would like to show you how I ''stabilize'' the piano strong cover on mine. Two dozen strong magnets!

Cheers!
Zhu

That is a very elegant solution Zhuzhu. I have been an irresponsible scalliwag who doesn''t use a string cover. I close the lid and clean regularly but I should do more.

I''m not remotely in the league of Moh, Diamante or you with my modest little baby Kimball. But I love the way it looks, keep it tuned/maintained and enjoy giving my fingers an escape a few times a week.

 

[zhuzhu]

Often they (consumers) are turned away from a different type of piano not because of the "different sound", but more because they are not accustomed to the "touch". A grand piano is much heavier to play on than an upright. A Kawai is also generally "heavier" to play on compared to an equal size/grade Yamaha. That differences in "touch and feel" of the keys are very difficult to adjust to given the time shoppers examine potential new pianos in the store.

 

[John P]

Date: 7/28/2009 12:06:36 AM
Author: Moh 10

Thanks John.
I know you are a fellow musician and connoisseur.
If you are ever in town . . .

I am sure we''ll hear the chimes at midnight.

 

[Moh 10]

Another major problem with piano shopping is few pianos get the finishing work that optimizes the feel and sound.
This is anywhere from 4 to 80 hours of work and it is called prep.

We have a saying that no piano is ever finished.
There is always something a good tech can do to nudge any piano a little close to that elusive perfection.

This work is expensive.
In a large city a good tech's time is near $100 per hour.

Most stores do as little of this as they can get away with.
If the store's competitor does less they can sell the piano for less.
Unfortunately customers think Piano Brand X model Y are all the same so the shop only on price.
That's why few pianos feel or sound anywhere as good as they can in the store.

Next, dealers don't tell customers they just bought a box that will never perform at its peak unless you sink, say, $1000 or $2000 into it over the first couple years of ownership.
Piano dealers work hard to reduce fear and anxiety, not increase it.

But I'm telling you, ANY piano can be kicked up several notches by a good tech.
Even the best pianos break in.
Thousands of parts of leather, felt, canvas, wood, metal, and sometimes plastic, bang against each other with great force a zillion times.
As they break in parts change dimension, density and position and they need to be brought back into alignment or they will be lopsided and the paino's feel and sound will gradually degrade, perhaps irreversibly.

If a piano gets this care, probably less than 1% do, when it matures it will be able to play whisper soft and responsively with the feel of a BMW, tight and controlled yet smooth as silk.
It will respond sensitively to the pianists slightest change in touch.

This work can actually make a more noticeable improvement on less expensive pianos since better brands (except NY Steinways) are usually dialed in closer to where they should be at the factory.

 

[Black Jade]

It''s a pleasure to see such a piano even in pictures. I wish I could hear it.

I have a upright--a Knabe from 1942, it''s console, not a spinet so does have a decent sound, though not like a really good grand, like yours.

I''ve read Larry fine''s Piano Book from cover to cover several times. It was interesting, when I finally convinced my husband that an electronic keyboard was not the same as a piano and that I needed a PIANO, I found that when I brought that book along with me to dealers, I got shown entirely different instruments. It was sort of like bringing a loupe along when you go diamond shopping.

I played for about twenty years then got tendinitis and was out of commission for a year (not jsut from playing piano--for the first six months I couldn''t cook, drive or hardly dress myself). then I came back from that, was playing piano for the church again, and then came down with the tendinitis again. it turned out that I also had carpal tunnel and pinched nerve in my back. it took them about a year to figure it all out. I was afraid to play the piano after that. I''d play a little and then be afraid to be in terrible pain again that wouldn''t let up. But I''ve been getting over it recently and relearning some of the gentler pieces I used to play--I''ve almost got Moonlight down again. My son is also studying piano, which makes me happy. He''s the third one. I tried to get the older two interested, but they weren''t and I was so tired of fighting them that I didn''t even start him with lessons. Then he came and asked me and he is doing very well, no fighting, he just practices because he likes it.

Very nice to end the eveining looking at your beautiful instrument, Moh. I''ve had a discouraging day--I''ve had laryngitis two days in a row now. I''m gargling with salt water and hoping that tomorrow I will have a speaking voice? It''s wierd to open your mouth and have absolutely nothing come out. I''m on antibiotics though and hopefully tomorrow things will be improved.

 

[John P]

Date: 7/28/2009 10:36:28 PM
Author: Black Jade
Very nice to end the eveining looking at your beautiful instrument, Moh. I''ve had a discouraging day--I''ve had laryngitis two days in a row now. I''m gargling with salt water and hoping that tomorrow I will have a speaking voice? It''s wierd to open your mouth and have absolutely nothing come out. I''m on antibiotics though and hopefully tomorrow things will be improved.

Jade, my mother was a professional singer all of her adult life. For throat ailments she always used very hot tea with a few teaspoons of lemon and a few tablespoons of honey. I used that mix to this day with great effect. If nothing else it will feel good on your throat.

 

[John P]

Ok Moh, you inspired me last night. I gave my piano a good cleaning this evening. I also took photos to share - even though my 5'2" baby is not in the same league as your amazing D-Flawless. I still have great affection for her.

 

[John P]

She was happy when I told her an internet acquaintance convinced me to have a complete go-over done when it''s time for the next tuning.

 

[Luckyeshe]

I am sooo jealous right now! I soo need to wipe up my keyboards because of your pianos!! Moh and John, I wish I could hear you play...any ideas when you''d post something on youtube....

 

[Moh 10]

John, that's a beautiful piano.
I love the woodwork and carving in the legs and music desk.

The home is very classy too.
Such high ceilings.
I'll bet that makes the piano sound better.

I may set up a file hosting account so I can post a link to an audio file.
Is that illegal here?

John, what kind of music do you play on piano?
Does your wife play too?

 

[Moh 10]

Okay I hope these links works.
You may have to cut and paste it into your browser.

The following three recordings of me playing about 4 years ago.
They were made on my previous grand piano, the 7' Mason and Hamlin BB pictured below.
I have not yet recorded on the new Blüthner.

Ignore all my mistakes.
Just listen to the nice parts.

Here's the Aria from the Goldberg Variations, by J.S.Bach.

http://www.box.net/shared/f1gnc5vddi

 

[Moh 10]

Chopin Nocturne, Op 72 No. 1 posthumous.

http://www.box.net/shared/sesngvfszo

 

[Moh 10]

Prelude 1913 by Maurice Ravel.

http://www.box.net/shared/0k56f77deu

 

[zhuzhu]

Moh, how I love the tone and resonance of M&H. I can''t wait to hear the sound of your new baby.

I only heard the Bach recording, and it was very beautifully played. I especially appreciate the personalized tempo and trill variation you have inserted throughout "sentences". A very personal interpretation of the music.

 

[Moh 10]

Thanks.
I think the Ravel is the best performance and the Chopin the worst.
In fact, wish I didn't post the Chopin.

Bach's Goldberg Variations is my #1 favorite piece of music ever composed.
I'd love to learn all 32 of them but most are way too hard for me.
BTW, all 30 variations are all based on the Aria I recorded.
The Aria opens and closes the piece, making 32.

The MH was a superb piano.
I really miss it.
May visitors preferred it over the new one.

 

[John P]

Date: 7/29/2009 9:31:46 PM
Author: Moh 10
John, that''s a beautiful piano.
I love the woodwork and carving in the legs and music desk.

The home is very classy too.
Such high ceilings.
I''ll bet that makes the piano sound better.

I may set up a file hosting account so I can post a link to an audio file.
Is that illegal here?

John, what kind of music do you play on piano?
Does your wife play too?

Thank you Moh,

The house has 10-12'' ceilings which is wonderful for music but terrible for summer energy bills here in Tejas. Angela played clarinet professionally when she was young but chose another career path. She rarely plays now, but still loves music.

I listened to your recordings. I love how articulate the low end of the M&H sounds while managing to stay lush! Beautiful. And that''s on my desktop system - I''m tempted to put it through the Martin Logans later.

I''m glad you posted the Chopin. I realize you''re listening with a critical ear but it was honestly my favorite; probably because it was like I was in the room with a friend playing casually. There are many recordings of "perfect" performances. Where I''m at now in life I prefer personal performances.

Chopin is also the kind of music I love on piano - and aspire to play - albeit with mangled fingers and fumbling hands. I''m still most comfortable behind my percussion instruments. You know...the elegant piano''s clumsier cousins.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Moh, I know nothing, sadly, about pianos or classical music. But...I know beauty when I hear it. Thank you so much for posting the links!

 

[Moh 10]

Thanks guyz and galz.
I appreciate the good vibes.

 

[rainwood]

Moh-

I''ve been following this thread with great interest, and I love your piano, as well as the baby piano it gave birth to sitting on the table! You make beautiful music, and your Bluthner piano has obviously found the perfect home.

Although I played another instrument when I was young, I''ve always been interested in learning to play the piano. And for that, I''d need a piano. I was originally thinking an upright, but we only have outside walls to put it on, and I know that''s not a good thing to do and understand the reasoning behind it. So now, I''m thinking that a baby grand (or whatever the right term is) would make more sense, especially in light of your comment that it is actually easier to move.

I know nothing about pianos, have no need for a fancy brand, but would like a nice sounding, but not new piano. I''m in my 50''s so have no hope or expectation of becoming a classical pianist, but I would like to learn to play, even if it''s just fake book stuff. I know every piano has its own personality, but I''m hoping you can steer me in the right direction as to what brands provide the greatest value (as in nice sound and build) without spending a fortune). I''ll be sure to get the Larry Fine book, which I came across in my research. And I''ve been checking Craigslist, looking at some of the smaller Yamaha grands but mostly because my BIL has a Yamaha and likes it. And I check frequently to get an idea of price ranges and how often they seem to come up for sale. But I''m thinking I need to get smarter so that I know what to look for in my search for a piano, when to involve a piano tech, and how to find both a good piano and piano tech in Seattle. You are such a great resource, I thought I''d pick your brainto see if the newer types of marketplaces like Craigslist are even a a good place to look, and whether there are any piano techs in Seattle who you''d recommend.

Thanks very much!

 

[Moh 10]

Yes Yes DO start playing.
You are never too old.
You and I may have no chance of performing in Carnegie Hall, but we can bring to life some of the magical music of the masters in our homes for ourselves and for a few others.
Learning to play is a lot of work but rewarding like nothing else.

Helping you with your piano selection is tough.
Shopping for any piano in any price range is tough.

Larry Fine's book is definitely step one.

Condition of used pianos can vary sooooo much that it will often trump brand name in importance.
IOW a regularly-tuned and cared for lesser brand may be a smarter buy than a neglected high-end brand.
Sadly, MOST pianos ARE neglected by their owners, so find a good (independent) tech to evaluate it before purchase.
Pianos last about as long as humans and, as with humans, lifespan and health depends on how well they were taken care of.

That said, condition being equal, I think Baldwins from the 50s or 60s may be something to keep an eye out for.
Pre 1968 is what you want, because Baldwin moved operations from Cincinnati to Arkansas and the quality dropped.
Look up serial numbers on Baldwin's website, don't trust the seller's memory.

Yamaha and Kawai are very well made but are said to not hold up for several decades as well as American or European pianos.
So I'd only consider one younger than 20 years and NOT from a church, school, music teacher's studio, restaurant, bar, cruise ship and watch out for gray market pianos.

Gray market pianos are imported from Japan as used pianos, AFTER being sold by their original Japanese owners.
Japanese rarely buy used pianos and usually don't even want an older one in the house that they bought new.
These pianos were made for Japan's climate and may not hold up in your climate; plus your tech may find it impossible to get Yamaha's support for parts for a grey market piano.

There are several high quality brands from Europe that have low name recognition in the USA, especially the further away you get from New York City.
This can make them KILLER deals as used pianos.
Look for Petrof, Estonia, Schimmel, Seiler, Sauter, Ibach (a real German one not the new Chinese ones), Bechstein, August Förster, Grotrian, Schulze Pollmann, Blüthner, Steingraeber & Sohne, Bosendorfer.
If you are patient you may find one of these gems at a great price.

In fact if condition checks out some of these used European grands are so good you'd be wise to bump up your budget to apprehend one.
You'll be less likely to upgrade someday, an expensive process just like with diamonds.
Also a very good but unknown American piano is Charles Walter; they make an excellent upright for about $7000 new.
You are not going to find a good deal on an old Steinway or Mason and Hamlin so don't bother.
Everyone knows about these brands and they, especially Steinway, usually sell for more than they should.
You are VERY likely to be ripped of buying an old Steinway, even from a dealer, even "rebuilt".

Buy the largest piano you can.
I read once the optimum size for a grand piano would be 25 feet (most concert grands are near 9 feet long).
Anything smaller requires increasingly disastrous compromises, for tone and touch.
Avoid any grand under 5'6" since a larger upright will probably be better.

Take your time and ignore salesmen.

Oh, and I'll post about that little "baby" piano on my table next.

 

[rainwood]

Moh -

Thank you so much! Your info is greatly appreciated. I even found an August Forster on the local Craigslist although the $29,000 price tag is beyond what I''d be comfortable paying at this point. I''ll get the Larry Fine book, educate myself, and then start my search for one of those great European pianos.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 8/3/2009 6:02:37 PM
Author: rainwood
Moh -

Thank you so much! Your info is greatly appreciated. I even found an August Forster on the local Craigslist although the $29,000 price tag is beyond what I''d be comfortable paying at this point. I''ll get the Larry Fine book, educate myself, and then start my search for one of those great European pianos.

i have the 3rd edition and the 96-97 annual supplement sitting on my book shelf that i have no use for,wish i can give it to a PSer.

 

[rainwood]

Date: 8/3/2009 6:26:23 PM
Author: Dancing Fire

Date: 8/3/2009 6:02:37 PM

Author: rainwood

Moh -


Thank you so much! Your info is greatly appreciated. I even found an August Forster on the local Craigslist although the $29,000 price tag is beyond what I''d be comfortable paying at this point. I''ll get the Larry Fine book, educate myself, and then start my search for one of those great European pianos.

i have the 3rd edition and the 96-97 annual supplement sitting on my book shelf that i have no use for,wish i can give it to a PSer.

Thanks for the offer, DF, but unfortunately I already ordered it from Amazon. Darn!