DiaLuv
Shiny_Rock
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Opinion on Prince Andrew losing his ranks, title, etc
- Thread starter DiaLuv
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I assume the Queen can do whatever she wants, and it's certainly embarrassing to the Crown. But the lawyer in me wonders what happens if he isn't found guilty (you know, innocent until proven guilty and all that). Does he get his rank, title, etc back. I just wonder how that would be handled.
That's a really good question. If he was cleared in a trial, surely there would be no reason for him not to get them all back.
I'm amazed that his HRH title has been taken away. I don't think that's ever happened before to someone who was born an HRH. Only Edward, and he abdicated so it was his own doing.
It's really hard to prove anything one way or the other at this remove, but if I had to choose, I'm more than 50 per cent sure that he did it. Virginia has produced three dates, which would be a real gamble if she wasn't telling the truth. And three locations - again, tricky to describe each venue and each room in court and keep all the details straight if not the truth. There are also two witnesses who say that she told them about the encounters at the time. Then there's that damning photograph. Lastly, Andrew isn't exactly known for being a stand-up guy. He was in on the cash-for-access scandal with Fergie, and he's been known as Air Miles Andy. Leaks from the Palace say that he's very arrogant and dumb, and that he's been known around there for years as "the Andrew problem." Also, Virginia has been alleging this for many years now. If she didn't have a real grievance, surely she'd have given up, considering the stress the suit must be putting on her and her family.
I believe he thought that Virginia was a well-paid and willing s*x worker and he was just fine with that and sleeping with a girl so young. She was 17 and the age of consent in the UK is 16, but given their age gap and power differential....yuck.
So, I think he's sleazy enough to have slept with her, but I have doubts that he knew she was being forced and trafficked, and went ahead with it anyway. I think he's a sleazy scumbag, but I don't think he's evil. I like to think that if he'd had any idea she was a trafficking victim, not a highly-paid s*x worker operating of her own free will, he would have picked up the phone to the police. But who knows. I'm pretty shocked that the logic I described above points to him having done it at all, even if he thought she was willing.
I don't think the queen should have waited until now to take action.
Charles and William must be livid. The institution is their future, after all.
Poor Virginia. I hope she gets a huge payout so that she can live in comfort for the rest of her life. In my view, she deserves to have a good payout to compensate her for the loss of her innocence and late childhood, and the horrible memories and scars she must carry. I mean, I know money can't compensate for those things, but it's the next best option since we can't go back in time.
I'm amazed that his HRH title has been taken away. I don't think that's ever happened before to someone who was born an HRH. Only Edward, and he abdicated so it was his own doing.
It's really hard to prove anything one way or the other at this remove, but if I had to choose, I'm more than 50 per cent sure that he did it. Virginia has produced three dates, which would be a real gamble if she wasn't telling the truth. And three locations - again, tricky to describe each venue and each room in court and keep all the details straight if not the truth. There are also two witnesses who say that she told them about the encounters at the time. Then there's that damning photograph. Lastly, Andrew isn't exactly known for being a stand-up guy. He was in on the cash-for-access scandal with Fergie, and he's been known as Air Miles Andy. Leaks from the Palace say that he's very arrogant and dumb, and that he's been known around there for years as "the Andrew problem." Also, Virginia has been alleging this for many years now. If she didn't have a real grievance, surely she'd have given up, considering the stress the suit must be putting on her and her family.
I believe he thought that Virginia was a well-paid and willing s*x worker and he was just fine with that and sleeping with a girl so young. She was 17 and the age of consent in the UK is 16, but given their age gap and power differential....yuck.
So, I think he's sleazy enough to have slept with her, but I have doubts that he knew she was being forced and trafficked, and went ahead with it anyway. I think he's a sleazy scumbag, but I don't think he's evil. I like to think that if he'd had any idea she was a trafficking victim, not a highly-paid s*x worker operating of her own free will, he would have picked up the phone to the police. But who knows. I'm pretty shocked that the logic I described above points to him having done it at all, even if he thought she was willing.
I don't think the queen should have waited until now to take action.
Charles and William must be livid. The institution is their future, after all.
Poor Virginia. I hope she gets a huge payout so that she can live in comfort for the rest of her life. In my view, she deserves to have a good payout to compensate her for the loss of her innocence and late childhood, and the horrible memories and scars she must carry. I mean, I know money can't compensate for those things, but it's the next best option since we can't go back in time.
Harry lost his when he gave up his Royal roles.
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I have never liked him, stories abound about his arrogance when he was younger and serving in the navy, as informed to me by my late partner who was a middle ranking army officer.
Therefore, I have no sympathy for him.
However, what about Prince Charles? Why were his honorary military titles not removed from him all those years ago???!!! He was having an affair with a serving officer's wife!!!
My late partner was adamant that a normal serving officer would have been kicked out of the army for such behaviour, yet Charles got away with it at the time.
Hey ho.
DK
Therefore, I have no sympathy for him.
However, what about Prince Charles? Why were his honorary military titles not removed from him all those years ago???!!! He was having an affair with a serving officer's wife!!!
My late partner was adamant that a normal serving officer would have been kicked out of the army for such behaviour, yet Charles got away with it at the time.
Hey ho.
DK
i thought being stripped of his HRH and titles was in response to the letter submitted by the veterans (pasted below).
They make it clear that it's not about the legal case. His friendship with Ghislaine and his general behavior are, as @dk168 mentioned, bad enough to warrant being booted out of the military. They probably couldn't give Charles the boot, knowing that Andrew was worse.
It must have been a bitterly cold day at the palace.
Dear Queen Elizabeth
Prince Andrew’s position in the armed forces
We are writing to you as former members of Britain's armed forces. All of us have served our country and are proud to have done so. For that reason, we are particularly upset and angry that Prince Andrew remains a member of the armed forces and continues to hold military titles, positions and ranks, including that of Vice Admiral of the Royal Navy.
It’s been eleven years since the press revealed Prince Andrew’s inappropriate friendship with Jeffrey Epstein. Since that time Prince Andrew has shown himself to be uncooperative and less than truthful about that relationship. He has made several unbelievable claims during a BBC interview in late 2019, which only led to him 'stepping back' but not stepping down.
Now that Ghislaine Maxwell has been convicted of sex trafficking, a number of facts of the matter have been established in a court of law. Regardless of the result of Virginia Giuffre’s civil case against Prince Andrew, his position in Britain's armed forces is now untenable.
Were this any other senior military officer it is inconceivable that he would still be in post. Officers of the British armed forces must adhere to the very highest standards of probity, honesty and honourable conduct. These are standards which Prince Andrew has fallen well short of. It is hard not to see, when senior officers are reportedly describing him as ‘toxic’, that he has brought the services he is associated with into disrepute.
We are therefore asking that you take immediate steps to strip Prince Andrew of all his military ranks and titles and, if necessary, that he be dishonourably discharged.
We understand that he is your son, but we write to you in your capacity as head of state and as Commander-in-Chief of the Army, Navy and Air Force. These steps could have been taken at any time in the past eleven years. Please do not leave it any longer.
They make it clear that it's not about the legal case. His friendship with Ghislaine and his general behavior are, as @dk168 mentioned, bad enough to warrant being booted out of the military. They probably couldn't give Charles the boot, knowing that Andrew was worse.
It must have been a bitterly cold day at the palace.
Dear Queen Elizabeth
Prince Andrew’s position in the armed forces
We are writing to you as former members of Britain's armed forces. All of us have served our country and are proud to have done so. For that reason, we are particularly upset and angry that Prince Andrew remains a member of the armed forces and continues to hold military titles, positions and ranks, including that of Vice Admiral of the Royal Navy.
It’s been eleven years since the press revealed Prince Andrew’s inappropriate friendship with Jeffrey Epstein. Since that time Prince Andrew has shown himself to be uncooperative and less than truthful about that relationship. He has made several unbelievable claims during a BBC interview in late 2019, which only led to him 'stepping back' but not stepping down.
Now that Ghislaine Maxwell has been convicted of sex trafficking, a number of facts of the matter have been established in a court of law. Regardless of the result of Virginia Giuffre’s civil case against Prince Andrew, his position in Britain's armed forces is now untenable.
Were this any other senior military officer it is inconceivable that he would still be in post. Officers of the British armed forces must adhere to the very highest standards of probity, honesty and honourable conduct. These are standards which Prince Andrew has fallen well short of. It is hard not to see, when senior officers are reportedly describing him as ‘toxic’, that he has brought the services he is associated with into disrepute.
We are therefore asking that you take immediate steps to strip Prince Andrew of all his military ranks and titles and, if necessary, that he be dishonourably discharged.
We understand that he is your son, but we write to you in your capacity as head of state and as Commander-in-Chief of the Army, Navy and Air Force. These steps could have been taken at any time in the past eleven years. Please do not leave it any longer.
Harry didn't lose it; he still has it, but he can't use it. I thought that Andrew had actually had his HRH taken away via the Titles Deprivation Act, but now I realize that I was reading an over-dramatic, inaccurate article that said Andrew's HRH had been taken away when, in fact, it's the same situation as Harry: Both are still HRHs, but they cannot use the title.
I don't think this is as satisfactory as having their HRHs actually taken away. It's just a PR thing. They won't use them, but they still have them. I think no HRH should really mean no HRH. They should officially have them taken away, not just promise not to use them.
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And only because they were publicly called out in that scathing open letter.
I suspect that a good part of it's down to the fact that Andrew Parker Bowles never made any hint of fuss. Of course, he had his own reasons for that (he was a serial philanderer). Plus, having an affair isn't a crime, and you can't just take HRHs away right, left, and center. And they didn't admit to it until years later, anyway.
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It wasn't the letter that was scathing.
What is scathing is how
History shows many monarchies have converted to republics when the royals fall out of favor.
Convincing the masses that God has installed the monarch doesn't work as well now that people can read.
I wonder whether that old problem solver in the tower has has occurred to her. ...
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Daisys and Diamonds
Super_Ideal_Rock
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he hasn't lost them , they are just kind of parked up for when he wants to come back into the fold
Daisys and Diamonds
Super_Ideal_Rock
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First thing i thought yesterday was well fergie isnt ever going to get her HRH back ever now
Prince Andrew was (until yesterday) colonel in chief of my old regiment
ive read many things about him over the years being pompus and entilted but i have only heard nice things about him from way down the ranks
i am sad
we watched the doco on netflex and it doent look good but also in the back of my mind is the age of concent in my country is also 16 like in the UK
when i was a teenager Andrew was the one we all wanted to marry
I think Andrew has made really bad choices with regard to who to have as friends
Im not a fan of Fergie but i do feel sorry for her and the two princesses
and just imangine how HM must feel , how disapointed she must be, i mean she's an old lady and Andrew has been carrying on with blantent disregard to how this reflects on the rest of the family and i can see why Charles and William would be angry especially with the jubliee coming up this year
But the Queen is his mum and he was an endulged child where the first two hardly saw their mother a lot of the time
a lot of regular normal families have the odd rat bag too
his behavour should not be a reflection on the rest of the family
i suspect Charles and William were also behind the removing of titles etc
Prince Andrew was (until yesterday) colonel in chief of my old regiment
ive read many things about him over the years being pompus and entilted but i have only heard nice things about him from way down the ranks
i am sad
we watched the doco on netflex and it doent look good but also in the back of my mind is the age of concent in my country is also 16 like in the UK
when i was a teenager Andrew was the one we all wanted to marry
I think Andrew has made really bad choices with regard to who to have as friends
Im not a fan of Fergie but i do feel sorry for her and the two princesses
and just imangine how HM must feel , how disapointed she must be, i mean she's an old lady and Andrew has been carrying on with blantent disregard to how this reflects on the rest of the family and i can see why Charles and William would be angry especially with the jubliee coming up this year
But the Queen is his mum and he was an endulged child where the first two hardly saw their mother a lot of the time
a lot of regular normal families have the odd rat bag too
his behavour should not be a reflection on the rest of the family
i suspect Charles and William were also behind the removing of titles etc
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In my opinion he should've lost something else entirely. In the same vein as Kenny. Or a bit more mid-body.
I'm utterly disgusted how he's been able to escape serious consequences. I mean for *him* losing that title is a drama? It doesn't mean anything to 99% of the population and not getting a curtsy from people when you walk in - oh the punishment! I bet all the victims of illegal sex trafficking are utterly satisfied with that
I have deep respect for the Queen and the huge pillar for Western civilization she has become through devotion for duty. I am not British, but whenevers she gives a speak she is a shining example of common sense, intelligence, empathy. Have you heard her address to the Edinburgh summit? She was the only true statesman of the bunch. Its because of a lifetime of exemplary work ethic, however, that she's earned that respect. Not because of who her ancestors were.
In at respect Andrew has shown nothing whatsoever.
So it's only fair that he'll be forever part of the private Windsor family, but should absolutely no part of the institution of the monarchy.
And someone should sue him in an English court. I'd be even more disgusted if that's not possible in modern day Britain.
I'm utterly disgusted how he's been able to escape serious consequences. I mean for *him* losing that title is a drama? It doesn't mean anything to 99% of the population and not getting a curtsy from people when you walk in - oh the punishment! I bet all the victims of illegal sex trafficking are utterly satisfied with that
I have deep respect for the Queen and the huge pillar for Western civilization she has become through devotion for duty. I am not British, but whenevers she gives a speak she is a shining example of common sense, intelligence, empathy. Have you heard her address to the Edinburgh summit? She was the only true statesman of the bunch. Its because of a lifetime of exemplary work ethic, however, that she's earned that respect. Not because of who her ancestors were.
In at respect Andrew has shown nothing whatsoever.
So it's only fair that he'll be forever part of the private Windsor family, but should absolutely no part of the institution of the monarchy.
And someone should sue him in an English court. I'd be even more disgusted if that's not possible in modern day Britain.
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It is absolutely normal for a male member of the British Royal Family to have an affair. What Charles did with Mrs. Parker-Bowles while he was heir to the throne would not have caused a ripple on the pond had he not been married to Lady Diana Spencer. No one had explained how it worked to her and she was crushed by the reality. But to act as if Charles did something wrong for his position is crzay. He did what he was expected to do. The funny thing is that he actually loved his mistress.
Daisys and Diamonds
Super_Ideal_Rock
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ive read it quoted a younger Charles once said am i to be the only PoW without a misstress? - although i doubt very much that George V ever cheated on Queen Mary and of course George VI was never a PoW
it must be terrible for everyone involved to have one's love life reported in detail, exaggerated and lied about in the woman's mags, especailly for any children involved, and their were four children involved, not just Diana's two
I think we could do a lot worse than the present Dutchess of Cornwall who has turned out rather well IMHO, and i say that with no disrespect to Princess DI
what Andrew has done really isnt comparable in any way shape or form
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Andrew is a waste of space. He has grown up in such a privileged environment that he has no concept of “normal behaviour”. He thinks he’s special so he can do what he wants when he wants because who will say No.
i don’t think he knew Virginia was a sex traffic victim, in his little mind he wouldn’t have a concept of that, people do what he wants because he wants it.
I’m sure that Epstein manipulated him and used him but it’s a two way street. Andrew liked the “pretties” that Epstein had around him AND the exotic and flashy lifestyle that Epstein offered him. Andrew LOVES being Royal and the adulation that brings. Its always been his ticket to attention and adoration he is addicted to.
Virginia is just trying to bring to the worlds attention that being really rich and/or Royal isn’t a “free for all” and / or “get out of jail free card”. That there are consequences for actions.
Andrew should just sit quiet and still in his gilded cage for the rest of his life and be thankful that he won’t get jail time.
i don’t think he knew Virginia was a sex traffic victim, in his little mind he wouldn’t have a concept of that, people do what he wants because he wants it.
I’m sure that Epstein manipulated him and used him but it’s a two way street. Andrew liked the “pretties” that Epstein had around him AND the exotic and flashy lifestyle that Epstein offered him. Andrew LOVES being Royal and the adulation that brings. Its always been his ticket to attention and adoration he is addicted to.
Virginia is just trying to bring to the worlds attention that being really rich and/or Royal isn’t a “free for all” and / or “get out of jail free card”. That there are consequences for actions.
Andrew should just sit quiet and still in his gilded cage for the rest of his life and be thankful that he won’t get jail time.
Daisys and Diamonds
Super_Ideal_Rock
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i admit it's taken me too long
but ive come to the same conclusion Bron
He's a disgrace to his mother and father
but then i dont think that anybody who behave like this gives much thought to the thoughts of their parenst when they behave like this, regardless of who their parents actually are
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Is it really true that British royals cannot go to jail?
No matter what they do?
If so how far down the royal food chain does this go?
10th in line to the throne?
20th?
And does royal immunity apply also to the immediate families of those in line to the throne?
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Surely pizza express in Woking would remember if Prince Andrew was there; whomever had the party would remember, his security would remember. Why does he think the photo is fraud? Just say yes she looks familiar but I don’t remember the circumstances of the event. Why is it he can not now sweat? How can he be excluded from a lawsuit if he wasn’t there? His reasoning is certainly lacking and he should stop talking for a bit. 
Daisys and Diamonds
Super_Ideal_Rock
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i would think technically the Queen wouldn't go to jail, because the prisons are her's
but Princess Ann did go before the courts and was fined after an unfortunate incident with her dog - cant quite remember the details
so im thinking if one of them was really naughty like murder that jail would be on the cards just like the rest of us
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No, it’s not true at all. Royals have no immunity (other than the queen who has sovereign and diplomatic immunity) and would face arrest and sentencing like any private citizen. But the current case against Andrew is a civil case, hence no prison sentence will result.
I see in the latest headlines that Virginia has vowed to destroy Andrew, thinks he should be in jail but that leaving him broke is enough.
I cannot imagine that any of this is helping her to heal. This part of her life happened two decades ago and is still taking over her life today. If they go to trial, his lawyers will absolutely rip her apart on the stand. Her time with Epstein will be raked over, she'll have to reveal what she did for him, and her s*x life will be exposed, they'll accuse her of recruiting other girls, they'll go through her bank accounts and expose how much she was paid and the compensation she got from the fund (a few million I think), they'll make out she was a willing, well-paid s*x worker who just wants more money, and they'll tear her private life apart. All this will happen in front of the world. I wonder if she doesn't realize how bad a trial will be for her, because her lawyers haven't clued her in, because they want to work on the case for their own gain.
For her own mental health, I hope for her sake that she settles out of court. Apparently she's asking for $10m, which is so much that I don't think a settlement will be forthcoming if she sticks to that number. I know she's angry, and she has every right to be, but I hope she takes a lesser settlement - say, $5 million, which is still a lot but which is more likely to happen - to bring this to a close so she can start to heal in private. A trial will put her through hell.
I cannot imagine that any of this is helping her to heal. This part of her life happened two decades ago and is still taking over her life today. If they go to trial, his lawyers will absolutely rip her apart on the stand. Her time with Epstein will be raked over, she'll have to reveal what she did for him, and her s*x life will be exposed, they'll accuse her of recruiting other girls, they'll go through her bank accounts and expose how much she was paid and the compensation she got from the fund (a few million I think), they'll make out she was a willing, well-paid s*x worker who just wants more money, and they'll tear her private life apart. All this will happen in front of the world. I wonder if she doesn't realize how bad a trial will be for her, because her lawyers haven't clued her in, because they want to work on the case for their own gain.
For her own mental health, I hope for her sake that she settles out of court. Apparently she's asking for $10m, which is so much that I don't think a settlement will be forthcoming if she sticks to that number. I know she's angry, and she has every right to be, but I hope she takes a lesser settlement - say, $5 million, which is still a lot but which is more likely to happen - to bring this to a close so she can start to heal in private. A trial will put her through hell.
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But if one is underage one cannot have a consensual sexual relationship. Under US law it was rape in any case, no?
One incident, at least, took place in London when Virginia was 17, and the age of consent in the UK is 16. I'm not sure about the other places. But whatever the ins and outs, I can't think that her mental health will be improved by the enormous stress of a trial. The defense will do everything they can to humiliate her, and it will all be public. Maybe she IS in the right, and maybe she DOES deserve justice, but that justice will come at a high price. And what if she loses? Then she gets nothing, and such a result might harm her mental health. If I were her, and I went to trial and lost, I think I'd be convinced that the world cared nothing for me as an abuse victim, which would be a very dangerous thing. I do hope she's offered a generous settlement in the millions, and I hope she takes it.
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Surely pizza express in Woking would remember if Prince Andrew was there; whomever had the party would remember, his security would remember. Why does he think the photo is fraud? Just say yes she looks familiar but I don’t remember the circumstances of the event. Why is it he can not now sweat? How can he be excluded from a lawsuit if he wasn’t there? His reasoning is certainly lacking and he should stop talking for a bit.
You know when a child lies about something SO basic and dumb that you don’t believe anything they say after? That’s what he’s done. Denying ever meeting her, saying that picture was photoshopped, saying he can’t have met her because she said he was sweaty and now he doesn’t even sweat?! Like he’s gone totally off the deep end with his denials it just makes him look more guilty!
Kenny, as I said upthread, privately I'm leaning toward him being guilty. But I think this post is unreasonable given that he's still technically innocent. Just imagine if you were in his position and you were actually innocent. Even though I think he probably did do it, I'm aware that this is just my opinion and that I don't actually have a clue. I believe in innocent until proven guilty, which is why I'm not fond of posts like this, which are appearing all over the internet. There's a witch-hunt-like quality to them which makes me uncomfortable when charges haven't been proven, just in case he's innocent, which rationally I know is a possibility, even if I think he's probably guilty. JMO.
Past, Present, Future: The Meaning of Three-Stone Engagement Rings
Past, Present, Future: The Meaning of Three-Stone Engagement Rings - 04/14
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