Nouveau Riche

[Cehrabehra]

I''m having a slight difficulty adjusting to the different economic system here in China. In America we are firmly middle class - not upper middle class, not lower middle class - just average average comfortable not wealthy middle class. We can afford to make ONE ridiculous diamond purchase but not several - you get the idea.

Well here the locals think we''re rich - and I''m having a tough time dealing with some of the little things about it... I''m not sure how to explain it exactly, but knowing that I''m carrying someone''s monthly salary as uncounted money in the bottom of my purse makes me feel guilty at times, like I should just give it away to them. I''ve often thought in the past that if I had millions or billions of dollars I would want to give it away at least a hundred at a time to just random people on the street - but now I''m not feeling like that after all. And it isn''t because I don''t feel generous, it''s because I feel like there is a balance that is precarious and if I mess with it a house of cards will fall. Just in the past year the price for Ayi has gone up by about 1/3 because women feel generous and want to give just a little bit more (which is a lot to them) and I realize that the Ayi''s are excited about the money - they now expect it - and are going to price themselves right out of jobs soon enough because the americans will no longer be able to afford them at all.

I''m not sure what I''m looking for, but it feels like a pep talk of some sort - some wisdom that those who have lived with a considerable amount of money for longer than I have - have to say about all of this. I know I have to save money with kids hitting college and 2 cars to purchase as soon as we arrive back, but knowing that just $20 out of my pocket would be huge to someone, it is hard not to want to do it to everyone - or maybe not so much hard as I''m having a hard time reconciling with my values or something... I wish I could explain this better. I want to save the world but I know I cannot.

 

[Phoenix]

Hi Sara,

I don't know what Dalian is like but in SH, I see extremes: I see those with millions of US dollars driving the most luxurious cars (right across where we live), I see mainland Chinese in Hong Kong paying for their diamonds and designer clothes and handbags and so on in cash, and I see on TV (CNBC to be precise) how rich Chinese come to HK to pay for properties there in cash (yes, cash, not a cashier's cheque or anything similar, but hard notes in bagloads). Then, I walk down the street in Shanghai and see these slumps just a few yards away from the multi-million dollar apartment complexes, and I see old men on bicycles carting cardboard boxes and papers around for recycling.

Yeah, China is a country of extremes. There is a small percentage of Chinese with HUGE new-found wealth whist there remain those who are quite poor.

I can imagine that some Chinese would just assume that expats are all gazillionaires. Well, what I do is I try to be fair to the ayi's. I pay them what they ask for and sometimes just a bit more, but I don't throw our money around. We don't tip in restaurants mostly (like the locals) but sometimes we do if the service is very good. I tip my manicurist when I see that no-one else does. I don't go overboard but I give what I think is appreciated and deserved. I also volunteeer my time and donate money to non-profit organisations/ charities here and elsewhere. I know what you mean about upsetting the balance and the house of cards and all that, but I do what I feel comfortable with.

It is not only in China but a lot of what you've said and what I'm saying is also true in other Asian countries like the Philippines, Indonesia etc. In Singapore, the majority of domestic workers are Filipinos and Indonesians. Again, you can feel really bad about how hard they have to work just for a few hundred US dollars a month. But those hundreds dollars will feed their families for months. Sometimes, we'll give them some more than their monthly wages and/ or give them bonuses at times like Xmas and Chinese NY, but not a whole lot more. All that they expect is that you treat them with kindness, fairness and respect; and if you could give a little extra, all the better but I'd venture to say that they don't expect you to.

You can't save the world. You can do your fair share, and you shouldn't have to feel guilty. As you mentioned, you have your own kids to think of.

ETA: Just as an aside, my family and I were political refugees from Vietnam. We were saved by Medecins Sans Frontieres (long story) from the sea and subsequently received a lot of help from the French and UK governments, as well as from some French and English people, when we arrived in France and then the UK. I'll always be grateful to all who have helped us, but I *never* once expected anyone to give more than they could afford or were comfortable giving. I would think that many of those in need would feel the same.

 

[noelwr]

sorry you''re environment is making you feel uncomfortable.

people have the habit of converting money into their own currency and then it seems like a lot, but they forget that in the country we come from, it doesn''t have the same worth. as a European I could go to the States, and yes, my Euros are worth more than USD and things are much cheaper there so I get much more than I would back at home. however, I still have to go back home and pay lots of taxes, and my car loan and mortgage is in Euros, not dollars. if I were to move to the States and get a job, I''d learn a lot less Euros (if converted from USD), but then things would also be cheaper. you have to remember that it''s all relative and don''t let anyone make you feel guilty about the money you work hard to make. when I think of all the crap I have had to put up at work, that money should very well be in my pocket and not someone else''s.

 

[kimchi]

Hi Sara,

What you are going through is a normal part of adjusting to living in a developing country. In time, you will come to terms with it in a way that works for you. Meanwhile, I agree with Phoenix--you can''t save the world. But maybe, you can help save the person in front of you-- and that would probably be your household helper.

After years of struggling with the same issue, it came down to this for me: I paid my helper a fair wage--not the highest and not the lowest-- and gave bonuses as appropriate for the culture. I gave her the clothes the kids had outgrown to send home. When we left, I had her sell the furniture we did not want and paid her a commission for doing so. In other words, I treated her with the same rights and dignity as I would any other employee in the my home country (US) but the pay was the only difference. The pay was determined by the culture we lived in. And yes, paying your helper a little more will have a domino effect as each person does the same.

There is a lot you cannot change. There are things you MUST do for your own family and their needs as well. There are things you should not do as it upsets the balance of how things work. Focus on what you CAN do and remember that it is NOT your responsibility to save the rest of humanity. It is only your responsibility to be fair and kind to those around you.

Good luck!

Kimchi

 

[MAC-W]

I agree with everything the above posters are saying

Having lived as an expat in a number of countries where the price of a meal back here in OZ equals a monthly wage, you have to adjust to the country you are living in and most importantly to the culture of that country.

having said that I've also lived in a couple of countries where the price of a meal in OZ would hardly even get me a snack lunch

For the countries where the locals think I'm "rich" I found that (for me) the easiest way to do that was to not be conspiquous in my spending (I still spent what to the locals would be a lot but I kept it fairly hidden and didnt do it in big hits)

I paid (or rather my company paid) a fair local wage to our maid/gardener/driver etc but I always gave them a personal bonus at important holidays. Plus any clothes / furniture etc I was getting rid of I offered to my "staff" at ridiculous low value. I could have given it for free cos the money I got was 0.00 cents equivalent but I wanted them to 'value' what they were getting (does that sound extremely colonial? Its not meant to. I just didnt wanted my people to expect it as the norm cos I know there were -and still are- a lot of expats out there who treat their staff like sh!t)

its a really difficult balance to achieve and what worked for me may not work for you.


I think one thing that is very important is what Pheonix said. "All that they expect is that you treat them with kindness, fairness and respect" and that is especially true if you are working in the middle east where staff generally get treated like $%*&.

one thing I did do (and it was a one off thing) was pay for my maids daughter to do a one year college course. But that was after a lot of discussion and took the place of my maids holiday bonus. To her getting her daughter educated was -to her- worth so much more than a "bonus" (Initially she wanted the money to go to her sons education but as a female I just couldnt do that. I really really wanted the money to go to either her directly or to her daughters education and when I gave her the choice of $X bonus or $X+++ education for girl only, she chose education. A few years back I heard that the daughter had gone and done more education and qualified as an engineer - As an engineer myself I was so proud of her)

You will eventually find your own way of dealing with the disparity and if you ever want to see it from the other side, take a job in Switzerland or Norway on a US wage

 

[Maisie]

I wonder if there is a charity in your local area that you could donate a set amount of money per month or week to. That way you will feel like you are helping, but in a structured way.

You are a sweetheart and I can totally see where you are coming from. (((hugs)))

 

[LilyKat]

Date: 2/3/2010 12:04:23 PM
Author: Maisie
I wonder if there is a charity in your local area that you could donate a set amount of money per month or week to. That way you will feel like you are helping, but in a structured way.


You are a sweetheart and I can totally see where you are coming from. (((hugs)))

Ditto this. Sit down with your family and work out what you can comfortably give each month, to a carefully researched charity that helps local people in real ways. Perhaps even be involved in the charity itself, if you can spare the time, such as through volunteering. Remind yourself what you are doing every time the uncomfortable feeling gnaws at you. I also emphatically agree about treating everyone you meet with respect, dignity and fairness, no matter how little they have (which I'm sure you do already).

Don't feel too bad. The uncomfortable feeling is a sign you're a kind and decent human being with a conscience. Maybe you can't change the world, but you can make a difference

 

[Porridge]

That must be difficult. I remember feeling a little of the same things while traveling through third world countries.

The points and advice above are all excellent. Also think about this - do you expect millionaires to give you money just because they have it?

 

[AprilBaby]

Having traveled thru several 3rd world countries I understand your feeling, however, once you start giving money because you feel bad, you create expectation. If you tip your maid higher, all maids feel the need for higher tips and throw the local economy off. Soon no one can afford a maid and the maids get laid off. If you give money to the children, you create a problem where they won''t work for anything, and ultimately they have to learn to work to get paid. We felt awful, but the more we gave away, the more the locals DEMANDED in give-aways. Now when we travel, we plead poverty and they have to work for what they get, at normal wages. It really is better that way. Give to a charity if you feel bad. They control how the money is distributed.

 

[katamari]

Date: 2/3/2010 8:13:00 AM
Author:Cehrabehra

I want to save the world but I know I cannot.

Perhaps not, but there is no reason to say that you cannot have a positive impact. I think the best thing you can do is to make sure you are not contributing to people''s oppression, and that is a quite meaningful way to change individual''s worlds even if it doesn''t change the world. Pay people a living wage when you hire or contract them (by Chinese standards), don''t haggle over prices when you can afford them even if inflated, and the like. You shouldn''t feel guilty for your privileges, but I find it very admirable that you recognize and appreciate them.

I am sure it is very difficult and it made me emotional to read that you were dealing with it.

 

[Cehrabehra]

I am trying to find ways to be generous without giving straight cash - I don''t want to upset the balance because after seeing the trends, I really do think people will greed themselves out of jobs by raising prices to beyond what expats can afford. So far this is what I have been doing.... When we moved here I brought a bunch of clothes with me that my children were *just* outgrowing because I thought the american quality clothing would be far more appreciated by a chinese family than the good will and I plan to give them away. I hope the hand me downs are not thought of as snubs - the quality is good that it outlasts my children and I thought it would be fun for local children to have american style clothing. Another is by using services like every week I get my nails AND toes done - it is a luxury to me, but it is also unnecessary and time consuming but it is a way I know I can put money into the pockets of the girls I go to without just handing them money. I only haggle on prices if I think they''re asking something ridiculous and it''s a matter of principle. I buy my driver lunch or a drink rather than just handing him cash - I feel better easing his burden on his income rather than increasing his income - if that makes sense.

I do not have any Ayi yet but I plan to get one and I would like to have someone live-in. I want to give someone more than just the opportunity to make money working for me, but to have the experience of living with an American family as much as I look forward to having her live with us. Maybe I''m being too romantic, but I''m not ready to give that up yet. I don''t even know if I need an Ayi but I would feel bad not providing a job when I can.

I don''t know that I would say I am truly uncomfortable, so much as just unsettled in this one area. I am VERY much enjoying the people and the culture and the language - I really do love it here. I could do without seeing the donkey heads at the meat markets, but I am enjoying myself so much!!

Kimchi- I don''t have a household helper yet - I have in my mind what I want but most women around here just want servants and I just have not wanted to go down that road yet. Plus I want a live in and we are not in our house yet - where we are now is not even big enough for our family let alone an ayi. But I was thinking that when I left I could just GIVE whatever furniture we don''t take with us to the Ayi and/or driver and let them sell it for money or keep it.

I think I do okay in the kindness department - I do not see the chinese as being beneath me (it''s appalling how many american women act this way - really bothers me!!!!) But I am actually making some friends here - people who would invite me into their home and spend time with me after working time just to hang out - my mandarin teacher came over 4 hours before my lesson to make american pancakes and potstickers with me and wants to go with our family for one night of fireworks for CNY. I feel so flattered! We will buy dinner for everyone who goes - it is in this way that I feel more comfortable being generous - I am happier to provide a greater quality of life than just more money.

My driver often goes shopping with me and I know sometimes it bothers him that I spend a month''s wages (for him) on groceries - but it makes him feel better when I let him take me to chinese local places for lunch - he tells me I am chinese now lol I am definitely not becoming one of those women that only goes to the foreign markets and acts like a rich american. I''m having a blast hanging out with the Chinese

Mac-w... I understand what you mean - I still will probably give the used clothing away for free because I would in the states but I do get the whole ''value'' thing. We lived in Ireland last year for 7 months and so I got a taste of our money not going very far there lol I don''t treat my peeps like sheet but on the contrary - my husband worries that I will be too familiar and they won''t do their jobs. I think I actually have a handle on that one though. I decided before I came here that I wouldn''t do any sob stories or lending of money. It is a difficult balance though.

I seriously think I could live outside of the USA the rest of my life and be totally content.

Porridge - I don''t expect anyone to give anyone else money just because they have it, but I DO think sometimes things along the lines of - did that rich person *really* need a 5th car when they could have put a couple kids through college? I''m pretty sure they could say why is that woman looking at gold rings - like she needs a ring when she could pay my rent with that for a year!!

AprilBaby - I think what you said is what I am leaning toward - giving people opportunities to earn money rather than just giving it away.

katamari - I agree with what you said. I generally don''t haggle - it depends on the item though, it''s overall cost, and whether or not I think it is inflated to a disrespectful amount. I wanted a new cover for my iphone and I looked in the states and I was disgusted by the ridiculous prices - seriously $35 for a piece of plastic? Ridiculous! When I came here the first place was charging the same amount! I wasn''t going to go there. I just kept looking and asking about prices until I found someone who asked for what I wanted to pay for it in the states. I still think those covers are worth about $2 american but I was willing to pay $10-15 american and ended up paying about $12 so there was no bartering on my part. I paid what she asked for. But the place that wanted 250rmb? I walked away.

 

[winternight]

I think one of the best things to do is give to a local charity. And you know what honestly I think anyone with disposable income should give something to charity.

Personally, I don''t really get the throwing things off balance argument. Traveling in Africa because I''d give the cab driver or waiter a 15-20% tip apparently upset some people in our group because they thought I was messing with the local economy. Well folks this was right after Sept. 11th and the local economy was in tatters because of the drop in the tourist trade. Besides that we were eating at restaurants surrounded by other foreigners staying in the top hotel in the country. I grew up in South Florida which has a huge tourist industry. Believe me that service industry money flows back into the local economy.

I''m not saying I didn''t bargain sometimes while traveling in Africa, but when two kids wanted to sell me two small masks for about $5 I didn''t bargain at all because I felt that it was a fair price for me. When my DH and I went on safari last year we got to know people working in the camps a little bit and because we tipped they were super nice to us and told us they appreciated it. Personally (and this isn''t you Cehrabehra, obviously) nothing upset me more than cheap tourists on a luxury safari that cost at least 10k a person not tipping the people who were working there in a fair manner.

I don''t think people will price themselves out of jobs, I think what will happen is you can make an impact for someone for that week, month, year. If the job is a fair wage, a livable wage, then people will take it in my opinion.

 

[jewelz617]

This isn't all directed at you because your heart does seem to be in the right place, but sometimes I think people who have money advertise how much they want to help the less fortunate, but then go drop thousands on dollars at the spa while they haul around their Chanel bag. I'm sure someone who can't feed their family wouldn't feel the slightest bit of a problem having your kind of income. So keep that in mind. You don't need to feel guilty, and it's nice to take your DRIVER out to lunch and all, but why not do something more substantial if you are facing somewhat of a moral dilemma?

There is nothing wrong with having money. But if it's nagging at your conscience, DO something about it! Are you willing to sacrifice personal luxuries to make a difference in someone's life? Get out and donate your time and money to those who have next to nothing. This means giving to a structured charity. Go in and get your hands dirty. Help out. If you have it, share it!

If you have a strong character and are willing to share your resources to help others, you will be rich beyond comprehension.

 

[Sizzle]

Date: 2/4/2010 12:05:52 PM
Author: PinkAsscher678
This isn't all directed at you because your heart does seem to be in the right place, but sometimes I think people who have money advertise how much they want to help the less fortunate, but then go drop thousands on dollars at the spa while they haul around their Chanel bag. I'm sure someone who can't feed their family wouldn't feel the slightest bit of a problem having your kind of income. So keep that in mind. You don't need to feel guilty, and it's nice to take your DRIVER out to lunch and all, but why not do something more substantial if you are facing somewhat of a moral dilemma?

There is nothing wrong with having money. But if it's nagging at your conscience, DO something about it! Are you willing to sacrifice personal luxuries to make a difference in someone's life? Get out and donate your time and money to those who have next to nothing. This means giving to a structured charity. Go in and get your hands dirty. Help out. If you have it, share it!

If you have a strong character and are willing to share your resources to help others, you will be rich beyond comprehension.

So where do we draw the line? You can give and give, but then does that mean you can't buy the things YOU want? You're supposed to work everyday and sacriffice to get through college or whatever you did to get your job and then never enjoy the fruits of your labor because guilt should make you not buy a Chanel bag if you want a chanel or a 4 carat diamond if that's what your heart desires? I know lots of people who do say " Look at this, I want to help" and they do.. You might not always see it, but they do, and then yes, they get into their Mercedes and carry their LV, and that might be what you SEE, but they do so much more that you don't. Who am I judge? I don't think you should sacrifice your personal luxuries to help others all the time if that's not what's in your heart.. If it is in your heart, I think that's beautiful too.

 

[jewelz617]

Date: 2/4/2010 12:27:55 PM
Author: Sizzle

Date: 2/4/2010 12:05:52 PM

Author: PinkAsscher678

This isn''t all directed at you because your heart does seem to be in the right place, but sometimes I think people who have money advertise how much they want to help the less fortunate, but then go drop thousands on dollars at the spa while they haul around their Chanel bag. I''m sure someone who can''t feed their family wouldn''t feel the slightest bit of a problem having your kind of income. So keep that in mind. You don''t need to feel guilty, and it''s nice to take your DRIVER out to lunch and all, but why not do something more substantial if you are facing somewhat of a moral dilemma?


There is nothing wrong with having money. But if it''s nagging at your conscience, DO something about it! Are you willing to sacrifice personal luxuries to make a difference in someone''s life? Get out and donate your time and money to those who have next to nothing. This means giving to a structured charity. Go in and get your hands dirty. Help out. If you have it, share it!


If you have a strong character and are willing to share your resources to help others, you will be rich beyond comprehension.

So where do we draw the line? You can give and give, but then does that mean you can''t buy the things YOU want? You''re supposed to work everyday and sacriffice to get through college or whatever you did to get your job and then never enjoy the fruits of your labor because guilt should make you not buy a Chanel bag if you want a chanel or a 4 carat diamond if that''s what your heart desires? I know lots of people who do say '' Look at this, I want to help'' and they do.. You might not always see it, but they do, and then yes, they get into their Mercedes and carry their LV, and that might be what you SEE, but they do so much more that you don''t. Who am I judge? I don''t think you should sacrifice your personal luxuries to help others all the time if that''s not what''s in your heart.. If it is in your heart, I think that''s beautiful too.

Which is exactly why I said there is no need to feel guilty about having money. Of course if you work hard you should reward yourself with nice things. But if the poster is walking down the street feeling bad about how much money she has, she should funnel that energy into helping others. It will make her feel better and benefit the life of another. I''m not judging anyone, merely offering advice based on how she feels about being a "Nouveau Riche." She can certainly take it or leave it, I was just trying to offer my perspective, not put her down for having money.

 

[MichelleCarmen]

Date: 2/3/2010 1:46:27 PM
Author: Porridge
That must be difficult. I remember feeling a little of the same things while traveling through third world countries.

The points and advice above are all excellent. Also think about this - do you expect millionaires to give you money just because they have it?

2nd.

This is kind of an odd thread, IMO.

 

[Cehrabehra]

Date: 2/4/2010 1:02:21 PM
Author: MC

Date: 2/3/2010 1:46:27 PM

Author: Porridge

That must be difficult. I remember feeling a little of the same things while traveling through third world countries.


The points and advice above are all excellent. Also think about this - do you expect millionaires to give you money just because they have it?

2nd.


This is kind of an odd thread, IMO.

I agree, it is odd - I feel odd. It''s also VERY difficult to describe to someone who hasn''t BTDT.

 

[Cehrabehra]

Date: 2/4/2010 12:05:52 PM
Author: PinkAsscher678
This isn''t all directed at you because your heart does seem to be in the right place, but sometimes I think people who have money advertise how much they want to help the less fortunate, but then go drop thousands on dollars at the spa while they haul around their Chanel bag. I''m sure someone who can''t feed their family wouldn''t feel the slightest bit of a problem having your kind of income. So keep that in mind. You don''t need to feel guilty, and it''s nice to take your DRIVER out to lunch and all, but why not do something more substantial if you are facing somewhat of a moral dilemma?


There is nothing wrong with having money. But if it''s nagging at your conscience, DO something about it! Are you willing to sacrifice personal luxuries to make a difference in someone''s life? Get out and donate your time and money to those who have next to nothing. This means giving to a structured charity. Go in and get your hands dirty. Help out. If you have it, share it!


If you have a strong character and are willing to share your resources to help others, you will be rich beyond comprehension.

I think where the tug is is that I DON''T feel we have crazy amounts of money. I have never once been to a spa, I don''t have any designer handbags (but then again I have no desire for one), and we are facing some very real and very big expenses (kids'' college and 2 cars) and there are things that are extravagant I want to buy too - that back home in America would not be out of the realm of reasonable or normal.

I am definitely not fitting into the group of women who do like you describe - and they are definitely there. There are women who do not open or close their car doors and who flaunt everything and act totally superior.

A lot of women here give their time to the orphanages and most of them don''t like to discuss what they see going on there so I''m not sure I have the strength to do that as much as I''d like to. I think you guys all gave some really good suggestions and inspired me to think of a few more on my own. I think feeling like in MY american realm of normal I don''t have much money is what is bugging me when in THIS chinese realm of normal even my spare change makes a difference.

 

[jewelz617]

Date: 2/5/2010 8:32:18 AM
Author: Cehrabehra

Date: 2/4/2010 12:05:52 PM

Author: PinkAsscher678

This isn''t all directed at you because your heart does seem to be in the right place, but sometimes I think people who have money advertise how much they want to help the less fortunate, but then go drop thousands on dollars at the spa while they haul around their Chanel bag. I''m sure someone who can''t feed their family wouldn''t feel the slightest bit of a problem having your kind of income. So keep that in mind. You don''t need to feel guilty, and it''s nice to take your DRIVER out to lunch and all, but why not do something more substantial if you are facing somewhat of a moral dilemma?



There is nothing wrong with having money. But if it''s nagging at your conscience, DO something about it! Are you willing to sacrifice personal luxuries to make a difference in someone''s life? Get out and donate your time and money to those who have next to nothing. This means giving to a structured charity. Go in and get your hands dirty. Help out. If you have it, share it!



If you have a strong character and are willing to share your resources to help others, you will be rich beyond comprehension.

I think where the tug is is that I DON''T feel we have crazy amounts of money. I have never once been to a spa, I don''t have any designer handbags (but then again I have no desire for one), and we are facing some very real and very big expenses (kids'' college and 2 cars) and there are things that are extravagant I want to buy too - that back home in America would not be out of the realm of reasonable or normal.


I am definitely not fitting into the group of women who do like you describe - and they are definitely there. There are women who do not open or close their car doors and who flaunt everything and act totally superior.


A lot of women here give their time to the orphanages and most of them don''t like to discuss what they see going on there so I''m not sure I have the strength to do that as much as I''d like to. I think you guys all gave some really good suggestions and inspired me to think of a few more on my own. I think feeling like in MY american realm of normal I don''t have much money is what is bugging me when in THIS chinese realm of normal even my spare change makes a difference.

Hence why I said that was not directed at you... not sure if you are getting my point. I do know those types because I have been overseas and did see a lot of that. Like I said, if it''s making it uncomfortable for you there''s nothing wrong with charity work or donations. Do I think you should just hand out money to anyone you see who needs it? Probably not. That''s going to get exhausting and in reality accomplish very little in the long run.