need advice - explaining propriety to an ill mannered human being.

[dragonfly411]

SO has a friend, who overall is a decent person, he doesn''t do stupid things, has some good morals, has good work ethic and is generally a nice person. His main problem is he is really really rude. It''s not that he is purposely rude, he seriously has just never been taught manners, and has no sense of propriety. He''s also rather forward. Anyways, last night he was over and had the gall to ask if two of his friends (who I''ve met twice, and SO has met 4 or 5 times but who seem to think they are good friends with us?) could come over tonight to see the new place................ insert blank stare...... and blinking. How do you handle something like that? I was really inclined to just be blunt and say no.... but then I feel like I''m coming off as cold and unwelcoming. WHO DOES THIS???????

 

[Madam Bijoux]

Since he was never taught what is and isn't appropriate to do or ask, it's up to his kind friends to teach him. Whenever he does something like you described, I would sit him down and gently explain why he was out of line what he should say or do. He'll never learn appropriate behavior unless his friends teach him.

 

[Italiahaircolor]

I''m just putting this out there...

Maybe he really wants to see the place but had prior plans and doesn''t want to exclude his friends but at the same time doesn''t want to blow you off for them? I would honestly be more inclined to believe this was rude if he had just shown up with his friends without letting you know ahead of time...I mean, at least he asked, that counts for something.

I think if you''re really uncomfortable with this, you should just say no. That''s not a crime. Let him know that plans changed and tonight just isn''t a good time to stop by...reschedule and move on. Or, swallow it and show off your new home. Either way, he put the ball in your court so do whatever you''re most comfortable with.

I know how important manners are...I''ve dealt with people of different levels of class, so I know it can be hard adjusting your standards to deal with them on an individual level. It''s not easy. But, I think it''s always easiest on you if you consider the source...you know he''s not the most thoughtful person, but that''s who he is...so just know going into it that he''s probably not up for a big change...and rather than stressing over it, accept it!

 

[dragonfly411]

Italia = as to your first thought I''d understand that but he has been over to our new place several times, so no, it was THEM asking HIM to ask and he actually ASKED if they could come over on this day. Which is also rude of them, but I won''t even go there lol.

I have already discontinued eating with him for his severe lack of table manners.... Sigh.

 

[movie zombie]

just say "No". if asked why, just say, "we''ll ask them when we''re ready".....which leaves the door open for never being ready.

mz

 

[Mara]

gah since you mentioned table manners, we have a good friend whose husband has the most atrocious table mannners. he is a lip smacker, and chews with his mouth open and looks blankly at you while he does it if you are talking/telling a story. it has gotten so bad that no one wants to sit near him, and if we have friends over for dinner they ask us to please not invite him. but, i am not going to exclude our friend, so i just put greg next to him since he doesn't seem to mind.

some people just don't have a clue socially.

 

[dragonfly411]

Mara - he is the same way, and it is the most disgusting thing in the world to me. I have had to tell SO that they can go eat if they want but I CANNOT eat with him. It''s gross, and he uses his hands a lot, and doesn''t use napkins, just ew.

 

[Haven]

There is no polite way to point out one''s ill manners, no matter how well-intentioned you are.

If he was a very close friend, and you had a relationship where you could tell him anything, then I suppose you could try to broach the subject. However, the fact that you are so appalled that he asked if some of his friends could come over to see your home makes me think that you are not close enough to give him advice about his manners.

It''s frustrating, to be sure, but pointing out one''s bad manners is one of the most ill-mannered things a person can do, in my opinion.

You have already cut off some contact with him by not eating with him, so it sounds as if the best thing you can do is to minimize all social contact with him if he truly is too offensive to tolerate. I think this is reasonable, and something that we all have to do every once in a while. DH has a cousin who fancies himself a top chef, and thus is unable to eat in anyone''s home without making wildly rude comments about the fare. I recently decided that he will no longer be invited into *our* home for meals, and I was pushed to this decision when he publicly (and loudly) criticized a friend''s homemade cookies at our 4th of July party. That''s just not something I''ll tolerate, and since it is my home I don''t have to.

I suppose you can take comfort in hoping that one day he''ll date or marry someone who will help him clean up his act, as I do believe that a significant other can safely help her partner with his manners without crossing a line. At least, I know I''ve put my poor husband through a great many etiquette lessons in the five years we''ve known each other.

 

[atroop711]

Date: 9/11/2009 11:29:02 AM
Author:dragonfly411
SO has a friend, who overall is a decent person, he doesn''t do stupid things, has some good morals, has good work ethic and is generally a nice person. His main problem is he is really really rude. It''s not that he is purposely rude, he seriously has just never been taught manners, and has no sense of propriety. He''s also rather forward. Anyways, last night he was over and had the gall to ask if two of his friends (who I''ve met twice, and SO has met 4 or 5 times but who seem to think they are good friends with us?) could come over tonight to see the new place................ insert blank stare...... and blinking. How do you handle something like that? I was really inclined to just be blunt and say no.... but then I feel like I''m coming off as cold and unwelcoming. WHO DOES THIS???????

don''t worry about being rude since he was rude to ask. Just say no..or ask WHY? See what he comes up with. OR...you can be nice and make up a nice excuse on why they can''t come over

 

[luckystar112]

Why is it rude to ask?

It would be rude if he brought them over unannounced.

 

[D&T]

Date: 9/11/2009 1:48:38 PM
Author: luckystar112
Why is it rude to ask?

It would be rude if he brought them over unannounced.

I was thinking this as well.

Maybe you could just say, sorry maybe another time, or just say, No not this time.

 

[purrfectpear]

For those asking why is it rude to ask, it''s because it''s always rude to "invite yourself" putting the person you''re asking in the position of saying no. It''s even MORE rude to invite your friends (in essence them inviting themselves, using this guy as the conduit).

However, why do people post these questions here? You''re not a child, you''re 23 and you know darn well what to do. Do ya''ll post because you need the comfort of group think validation? It''s your house, say no or not.

 

[Maisie]

I am at the point in my life now where I just try to accept people as they are. I am not perfect (although I definitely do not eat with my fingers!) and I hope that people will understand that I am a nice person with some little flaws.

 

[dragonfly411]

purrfect - It''s not that I don''t know whether to say no or not, but more how to point out to him that I would rather he didn''t do something like that in the future without offending or making him angry... that is something I don''t really know how to do as I''ve never been in this situation before 23 or not.

I would not mind if I had invited him over and he said "oh do you mind if such and such joins? They''d like to see the place" I could answer yes or no and be fine, but to have them ask him to ask us if they can come over without him previously being invited over, and the fact that he WOULD do such a thing is the rude part to me. He does tend to invite himself over, invite himself to go to dinner with us, invite himself to ride with us somewhere etc and it is not something I appreciate. SO tends to really either not think much of it, or when he does, doesn''t say anything b/c he doesn''t want to upset the guy. Which is understandable but I mean... where to draw the line? There has to be a point where we can set boundaries right?

 

[Anastasia]

Dragonfly,

I don''t think his question was all that rude. You absolutely could have said no, and without feeling badly about it. If he had asked IN FRONT of the other couple, I would have thought that was rude, but to just ask you in private isn''t all that big a deal as far as I''m concerned. I''m sure a lot of your annoyance has to do with the fact that he is lacking in social grace, and this is not the first (or last) time that he has done something like this.

He is how he is. I''m not sure you can teach him manners. My feeling with people like that is that you just don''t let them catch you off guard, and be prepared to give your real answer, not the answer that you think is polite. He obviously doesn''t recognize rude behavior. You can be honest with him in situations like this. Honesty is not rude.

 

[Haven]

dragonfly--I think you are spot on when you said in your recent post that this as an issue of setting boundaries, and I would advise you to approach it in this way rather than trying to teach him manners, as that is certainly not your place or your SO''s place.

If, when people invite themselves over to your home, you consistently respond "We would not like company right now, but we''ll let you know when we plan something in the future" I imagine that will be enough.

I agree that it is rude for someone to invite himself over to your home, but I don''t think it has to become an issue of any sort as long as you don''t allow him to actually come over at will.

 

[phoenixgirl]

We had a friend whom we invited to my family beach house with his wife and another couple. He had the gall to ask how many bedrooms we had, and when we said 4, he asked if he could invite another couple whom we had met once to my family beach house for the weekend! We gave some excuses and said no.

This was after he said the most ridiculous and offensive things as my career day speaker at school (he was a poet and a published author on, get this, etiquette) such as the n and f words after I told him it was inappropriate and asked him to stop. No joke. He just gave this grandiose speech to my students about not letting Da Man censor you. We had already invited them to the beach; otherwise, I don''t think we would have.

The friendship quickly dissolved after that. Ironically, we later became friends with the couple he wanted to invite that weekend, and all of us realized what a loser this guy was and lost touch with him.


Back to your dilemma -- sometimes DH breaches etiquette without realizing it. I know he''s invited other people along to things we''ve been invited to before (after checking with the host, but still). Maybe it''s a guy thing? Usually no one seems to mind and everyone becomes friends, so I guess no harm done. The most awkward time was back when we were really religious and were having a small group barbeque. He invited the lead singer of his band, this smoking/drinking unmarried, unemployed dude, to the small group barbeque at someone else''s house just because they happened to live in the same neighborhood as this guy. Needless to say, that one fell kind of flat.

 

[dragonfly411]

Thank you all again for your advice. Again, just wanted to note that it totally wouldn''t be an issue if we had already invited the friend to do something (like "hey do you want to hang out tomorrow? " friend: "Sure! Do you mind if such and such join us?"), but in this case he literally came into the room and said "hey such and such want to come over tomorrow to see the new place, is that ok?". That to me is rude. We didn''t end up having ANY of them over the other night, and I think SO was just as appalled in the end as I was. Friend also was apparently hinting at wanting to rent our extra room

. NO. LOL. For now we are not spending very much time with him, until he either grows up, or gets some manners. He is younger than us so it might be partially age related as well.

Phoenix - that guy sounds like a jerk. Glad you figured him out!!!

 

[asscherisme]

I have a different perspective on this. Sure, it could be just a case of rudeness. But could it be undiagnosed aspergers? That would definately explain the social cluelessness and not picking up on social cues. Just food for thought.

 

[decodelighted]

Date: 9/13/2009 12:27:37 AM
Author: asscherisme
I have a different perspective on this. Sure, it could be just a case of rudeness. But could it be undiagnosed aspergers? That would definately explain the social cluelessness and not picking up on social cues. Just food for thought.

That was my first thought too actually. I don't think people realize how pervasive it is ...

 

[lucyandroger]

Date: 9/13/2009 12:28:40 AM
Author: decodelighted

Date: 9/13/2009 12:27:37 AM
Author: asscherisme
I have a different perspective on this. Sure, it could be just a case of rudeness. But could it be undiagnosed aspergers? That would definately explain the social cluelessness and not picking up on social cues. Just food for thought.

That was my first thought too actually. I don''t think people realize how pervasive it is ...

Yeah, this would be my guess as well.

In any case, I don''t see the problem. So you thought what he asked was rude...just say no. If you find his behavior so appalling, then don''t hang out with him. If he''s your SO''s friend and your SO hangs out with him, then make plans with your girlfriends for that time. I just don''t understand why his question would cause you so much distress...give him the answer and move on with your life. There have to be more pressing things you can fret about.

 

[decodelighted]

Date: 9/13/2009 12:58:34 AM
Author: lucyandroger
In any case, I don''t see the problem. So you thought what he asked was rude...just say no. If you find his behavior so appalling, then don''t hang out with him.

Folks go around wishing people would stop offending them or being "rude" to them ... UNTIL the day they realize the whole world isn''t going to change for them (& its a pretty rude world). Its not what happens to you, its how you *react* to it. When you become more comfortable with standing up for yourself & saying no it isn''t such a big tragedy when people accidentally or purposely violate social norms/ reasonable boundries.

 

[LilyKat]

Saying "no" nicely but firmly is an undervalued skill. Declining a request is not offensive unless you make it so.

I don''t think you can change other people unless they come to you ASKING for your help in changing. If he were to come to you saying he knows he is clueless and wants help getting on socially, then there are things you could help with. If not, correcting his manners is just rude.

Whenever he makes an inappropriate request, just pleasantly say no. Whenever he behaves inappropriately (including table manners), either put up with it or stop hanging around with him. It depends on how much he means to you as a friend.

 

[makemepretty]

This sounds like my dad. We call it "lacking a filter". He doesn''t mean to say/ask things that are rude but he just doesn''t have that brain filter that tell you it''s not appropriate to say certain things.

We''ve started telling him when he does that because he HONESTLY does not know what is appropriate. I went with him to a wake because he says the most inappropriate things sometimes. I cut him short while he was telling a racial joke! Seriously, who does that? He has done some emotional damage to my sister about her weight because he''d make hurtful "honest" comments. You just deal with them as kindly as you can and politely explain why that''s not ok.

 

[wolftress]

dragonfly, I have to say when I first read this, my first instinct was to say, "At least he asked first!" This anecdote will make you feel better, I hope...

DH''s dad''s partner has a habit of bringing people to our dinner party, without ringing to ask beforehand. She just shows up with them. Usually we are quite accommodating as we tend to cook more than enough... but at DH''s 31st birthday party, she showed up with 3 little girls who were DH''s youngest sister''s friends, so the party very quickly turned into a kid''s party which poor DH did not enjoy at all.

Oh, and just as an aside, this classy lady also had a habit of going into DH''s and my ensuite and using it, even when we have our bedroom door closed. About a month ago when she was here, she went in and we had ''personal effects'' lying around and I think she was so embarassed she has never done it again.

Unfortunately there will always be people who are rude, but do not realise they''re being rude. It sounds like your friend has a lot of good qualities that make up for it, otherwise he wouldn''t still be your friend. I know what you mean about not wanting to come off as unwelcoming... it''s a sticky situation for sure.

 

[zhuzhu]

Date: 9/13/2009 7:53:49 AM
Author: LilyKat
Saying ''no'' nicely but firmly is an undervalued skill. Declining a request is not offensive unless you make it so.


I don''t think you can change other people unless they come to you ASKING for your help in changing. If he were to come to you saying he knows he is clueless and wants help getting on socially, then there are things you could help with. If not, correcting his manners is just rude.


Whenever he makes an inappropriate request, just pleasantly say no. Whenever he behaves inappropriately (including table manners), either put up with it or stop hanging around with him. It depends on how much he means to you as a friend.

I agree that declining nicely will make everyone happy.
I would just smile and say "sorry, it isn''t a good time for us to have company. Thanks for your interest though".

 

[Cehrabehra]

Date: 9/11/2009 2:13:17 PM
Author: Maisie
I am at the point in my life now where I just try to accept people as they are. I am not perfect (although I definitely do not eat with my fingers!) and I hope that people will understand that I am a nice person with some little flaws.

ITA - I am not perfect nor is my husband or any of my friends. In fact the people who are so put together make me uncomfortable. I personally wouldn''t have found it rude - I would have answered as bluntly back and probably not noticed. Well it may have annoyed me but I don''t know that I would have been able to place it in an ill mannered category.

The explanation of putting someone in the position to have to decline, I get that. But I guess in the society we live in there are pushy people everywhere.

I''m wondering - are the people who think it is rude from the south? They generally have a far stronger preservation of old fashioned hospitality and manners. I grew up around hippies in san francisco and inviting yourself over never really hit my negative radar.

Here''s an example of what happened to me last night/today.
First of all my husband needed to leave for the airport today at 5 to go to china. So at 9pm last night we get a call from his uncle that I haven''t seen in way over 10 years. Maybe 15 - he thought 18. So they think we''re still living up near seattle (we haven''t lived there for 13 years) and they''re in town and want to see us. Well my husband takes the call and gets no info at all other than "we''re having people over tomorrow at some time - no idea how many or when or for how long - they might stay the night" um hello?? My family room at that moment was absolutely COVERED in (thankfully clean) laundry, the house was NOT spotless, I had about 30 pages of paperwork to fill out. I had my sunday planned!

I was highly irritated because more notice would have been nice, but I never once had the word ''rude'' pop into my head. The only time I can recall really being offended by someone''s rude behavior was this couple we used to know a zillion years ago in new york and we''d play pinochle and the guy would just lift his butt cheek and fart - even if the fan was behind him. He wouldn''t say anything - it wasn''t an oops or even a hehehehahaha. It was just a lot of untalked about intentional farting that stunk like mad. We had to stop socializing and alas, still have not found another couple who can play pinochle lol

 

[kenny]

Phoenix girl wrote, "We had a friend whom we invited to my family beach house with his wife and another couple. He had the gall to ask how many bedrooms we had, and when we said 4, he asked if he could invite another couple whom we had met once to my family beach house for the weekend! We gave some excuses and said no."

Pet peeve altert.
I hate when people try to trap me like that.

I have a friend who will ask, "So what do you have planned this weekend?"
I respond, "Oh, nothing".
She says, "Good because there is XYZ Saturday that you will love. . . blah blah blah.

Sure I could say no, but it is that guilt thing; she has already established that I'm free so that pressures me to cave in.

This has been a 30-year VERY close relationship.
Recently I have spoken to her about this and she has backed away from me.
It tells me she really wanted someone she could push around, which is how I was.
She's one of those people who tell you how to drive, what lane to get in miles and miles early.

The more polite approach would have been intoducing the event to me BEORE asking if I was busy.

 

[Hera]

I can see where one would think it''s rude and I would have just said no, but I think I have a bigger problem with people trying to change or teach other people things. I don''t see why that should be anyone''s concern.