Wedding Name Drama

[Pandora II]

I''m trying to work out how to write my table place/place cards.

Correctly it should be either:

Mr John Smith
Miss Jane Smith
Mrs Jane Smith
Dr John Smith
Dr Jane Smith

etc

The problem is that some of my guests are divorced (from each other

) so do I put Mrs or Ms - I HATE being addressed as Ms, other of my friends hate Mrs or Miss (my wedding so I win here!)...

My options are:

A) Go with the formal as above and annoy a few people whilst being ''correct''.

B) Go without any titles - just first and second names. This will be contentious as there are a lot of ''Dr''s'' attending, a Rev. Dr, a few politicians plus a couple of Lords and Baronesses who I can hardly call Ted Smith very easily...

C) Use John Smith, Esq for all men without ''Dr'' etc , use the fancy titles and just use ''Jane Smith'' for all the women who don''t have Dr, Cllr etc before their name?

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

 

[Rhea]

I've very name picky and hate being addressed as either Mrs or Miss (neither are correct now that I'm married but even before that I was Ms

).

How did you write it on their invitations? Why not please everyone and mix it up? Then some people, who care about their title are Lord or Dr. while others are first and second name only.

ETA: actually, on 2nd thought I'm not sure that'd work. Then you could have a Dr., Rev., and a first and second name only all sitting at a table together.

 

[brazen_irish_hussy]

I''m with your friends, I HATE being addressed as anything but Ms. Miss makes me feel like a child and Mrs sounds like some mean old woman. I am also against being identified by marriage in the same was a doctor, reverend or doctor is identified, as though being married or not is my defining feature.

Having grown up with doctors and lawyers, I think you are safer using Ms and titles rather than nothing at all. Especially with politians, I know you work with them, but for that reason you should know better than to invite them

(My grandpa was a carrer politician, so I am just being dificult)

 

[Pandora II]

'MS' is not an option as I detest it as much as some people detest not having it. I have to put up with them calling me Ms, so I get my own back here!

So I think it's going to be easiest to go with what I did with the invitations - which were very formal and addressed to Mr and Mrs John Smith, and the envelope just to Mrs John Smith.

I'll use Miss or Mrs for women, but I'll use the surnames that the married females tend to use - some have changed their names, some haven't, and some half and half.

Mr for married men, Esq. for those who aren't and gongs and titles for all the rest.

I'm glad you think it's a bad idea to have half one and half the other...

LOL on the politicians! I am one myself as well as working with them! But I don't insist on having it all over my credit cards etc like some of my colleagues do!

 

[cara]

Pandora, I'm sure you are aware, but you should really call be people what they prefer to be called. Certainly you can use your judgment or bias if you have to guess, but if a woman has made it clear she prefers Ms., it is rude not to use it. Times you have been incorrectly addressed, either by mistake or rudeness, does not give you a free pass here.

Just as it would be rude to call a woman Ms. Smith knowing she has married Mr. Jones, taken his name, and wants to be addressed as Mrs. Jones. Knowing all those things, it would be quite rude to decide that you don't like the Mrs. title and women changing their name, and so you keep calling her Ms. Smith.

I vote A), with the modification of Ms. for women whom are known to prefer that title.

If you can't bear that, then I vote B. Let the stuffy people answer to their proper names sans titles.

To use titles for some but not others in the same room doesn't sit right. Avoid C.

Cheers.

ETA: Just a further point here. I am a married woman who has kept my prior name, say Smith. What title do you propose for me? Mrs. Smith is wrong (as I am not the wife of Mr. Smith) and Miss Smith is wrong as I am not unmarried. Mrs. Jones would stick me with both my husband's name (which is incorrect but not so horrible) and the Mrs., by which I do not care to be addressed. Prior to my marriage I would not have minded Miss Smith, but now the only proper title is Ms. Smith.

 

[laine]

But what about the times when only Ms is correct? My mother is not Miss, as she is married, but she is also not Mrs First Dadslast as she kept her maiden name. Mrs First Maiden is also incorrect as thats not her "married" name. So Ms First Maiden is the only proper way to address her as far as I know (Ok, Mrs Dadsfirst Dadslast is correct as well, but I really, really hate that!).

Also, for a divorced woman who kept her married name, wouldn't Mrs be incorrect as it implies she is married to the man who shares that last name? Plus, Miss is such a young term to me. I can't imagine addressing my 60 year old unmarried aunt as Miss.

So I'm with BrazenIrishHussy, I prefer Ms as well, and for the same reasons. Just out of curiosity, why do you hate it?

ETA: Cara and I were making the same point at the same time.

 

[Pandora II]

Date: 6/13/2008 7:20:08 PM
Author: laine
But what about the times when only Ms is correct? My mother is not Miss, as she is married, but she is also not Mrs First Dadslast as she kept her maiden name. Mrs First Maiden is also incorrect as thats not her ''married'' name. So Ms First Maiden is the only proper way to address her as far as I know (Ok, Mrs Dadsfirst Dadslast is correct as well, but I really, really hate that!).

Also, for a divorced woman who kept her married name, wouldn''t Mrs be incorrect as it implies she is married to the man who shares that last name? Plus, Miss is such a young term to me. I can''t imagine addressing my 60 year old unmarried aunt as Miss.

So I''m with BrazenIrishHussy, I prefer Ms as well, and for the same reasons. Just out of curiosity, why do you hate it?

ETA: Cara and I were making the same point at the same time.

Ms is a new and invented term and is therefore never ''correct''. Hence why I will not use it. For work events and correspondance I would never dream of using the term ''Ms'' as it is an incorrect form of address - I go to a lot of very formal events in London and I am now addressed by my title, but before that I was always ''Miss''.

Why on earth would anyone have a problem being Miss or Mrs? I really don''t get it...

If you are married and keep your own name, on formal correspondance to both you and your husband you would be:

Mrs John Smith

On correspondence just to you:

Mrs John Smith, or Mrs Jane Smith, or Jane Smith.

Widowers or divorcees become Mrs TheirFirstName HisLastName unless they revert to their maiden name in which case they are still ''Mrs''.

I can''t start ringing round to see who wants to be what - the only person I''m really unsure about which to use is a divorcee whose former husband is the bestman...

 

[zoebartlett]

Do you feel the need to use titles? We''re just doing first and last names.

 

[Pandora II]

Date: 6/13/2008 8:10:26 PM
Author: ZoeBartlett
Do you feel the need to use titles? We''re just doing first and last names.

I think it would be weird to have Lord X, Baroness Y, The Rt. Hon whatever and then not put things like Cllr, Dr, Professor, Rev etc as then it''s using two different styles of address.

It may be more of a big thing in the UK than in the US though.

 

[rockzilla]

I think you should avoid asking us crass Americans for etiquette advice here...it appears there is a social class/country disconnect.

In the US, Ms. is often the only correct form: http://www.emilypost.com/everyday/forms_of_address.htm

What is your opposition to it? Because it is new? It has been used widely for 30+ years. Because Americans came up with it?

Perhaps you can write to the Queen for advice, because you certainly don't seem to want ours.

 

[rockzilla]

Ok, so that last bit about the Queen was snarky...sorry about that, I guess it is the uppity American in me

I actually took a few minutes to look up online the difference between UK and US because I am interested now in the difference in usage. I'm posting below from wikipedia (yes, I know the issues with wikipedia, but I think here the descriptions and sources help explain a bit where we seem to be butting heads).

American
The American Heritage Book of English Usage states that: "Using Ms. obviates the need for the guesswork involved in figuring out whether to address someone as Mrs. or Miss: you can’t go wrong with Ms. Whether the woman you are addressing is married or unmarried, has changed her name or not, Ms. is always correct."[7]

Ms. is widely used in the U.S., much more so than currently in the UK.[citation needed] In business correspondence, it is standard. The default use of Ms. is also championed by a number of etiquette writers, including Judith Martin (who ironically writes under the pen name Miss Manners).

Several public opponents of "non-sexist language," such as William Safire, were finally convinced that Ms. had earned a place in English by the case of Geraldine A. Ferraro. Ferraro, a United States vice presidential candidate in 1984, was a married woman who went by her birth surname rather than her husband's surname (Zaccaro). Safire pointed out that it would be equally incorrect to call her "Miss Ferraro" or "Mrs. Ferraro" — or to confuse the reader by calling her "Mrs. Zaccaro."

British
The Times (UK) states in its style guide that: "Ms is nowadays fully acceptable when a woman wants to be called thus, or when it is not known for certain if she is Mrs or Miss."[8]

The Guardian (UK) states in its style guide that: "We use whichever the woman in question prefers: with most women in public life (Ms Booth, Mrs May, Miss Widdecombe) that preference is well known; if you don't know, try to find out; if that proves impossible, use Ms."[9]

Most women in the UK appear to still style themselves either "Miss" or "Mrs." However, in some circles the appellation is now standard, for instance in business — and where one may not know or find relevant the marital status of the woman so addressed. Ms can also be used if the woman in question is divorced and reverts to her maiden name. Additionally, she may have changed her name by deed poll and uses Ms because it is neither a married nor a maiden name.

Mrs is still in common use socially, especially by women who have taken their husband's family name. British school children may also address female teachers as Miss regardless of marital status

 

[JulieN]

What is wrong with Ms? The Economist uses it.

Also, I agre that it is Ms cara.

 

[Rhea]

I like Ms because I don''t think my martial status is anyone else''s business. To me it''s on par with Mr.

Since I didn''t take my DH''s last name I am not Mrs and I''m especially not Mrs HisFirst HisLast. One of his friends did that to me and I had a lot to say about it. It''s not my name, there is no Mrs HisFirst HisLast to my knowledge. If there is he has a lot of explaining to do!

Miss is also incorrect as I am married. If anything, call me Miss over Mrs, but his last name on anything of mine is sure to get you an earful from me.

Since you feel the need for titles and think Ms is incorrect I''d keep it simple and just do the Mrs/Miss HerFirst HerLast. If a friend of mine messed up my title for a wedding I''d be slightly peeved but just think she was in wedding mode and trying to be formal so it''d be fine. If you''re only unsure about that one person, could you just ring her and do your best for the rest?

 

[zoebartlett]

Date: 6/13/2008 8:29:43 PM
Author: Pandora II

Date: 6/13/2008 8:10:26 PM
Author: ZoeBartlett
Do you feel the need to use titles? We''re just doing first and last names.

I think it would be weird to have Lord X, Baroness Y, The Rt. Hon whatever and then not put things like Cllr, Dr, Professor, Rev etc as then it''s using two different styles of address.

It may be more of a big thing in the UK than in the US though.

Ah, got it. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[noelwr]

Pandora - I'd just go with first and surname, but then again I don't know any Lords or doctors, so that's probably why

I've always wondered why on plane tickets they always write MRS even if you're not married. Mrs Maiden Name. guess they took the easy way out and just use Mr for men and Mrs for women. maybe you should pretend you work for an airline and do the same.

 

[cara]

Date: 6/13/2008 8:02:44 PM
Author: Pandora II

Ms is a new and invented term and is therefore never ''correct''. Hence why I will not use it. For work events and correspondance I would never dream of using the term ''Ms'' as it is an incorrect form of address - I go to a lot of very formal events in London and I am now addressed by my title, but before that I was always ''Miss''.

Why on earth would anyone have a problem being Miss or Mrs? I really don''t get it...

If you are married and keep your own name, on formal correspondance to both you and your husband you would be:

Mrs John Smith

On correspondence just to you:

Mrs John Smith, or Mrs Jane Smith, or Jane Smith.

I am not sure if you are suggesting that you would address me as a Mrs. Maidenname or as Mrs. Husbandsname. Either is incorrect.

If you are suggesting you would actually address me with my husband''s name when I have deliberately kept the name given to me at birth, you are substituting your judgment on the issue for my own. The general principle of addressing people how they wish to be addressed applies. Especially when they are asking to be addressed by their legal name. It is an old rule, if you are concerned with the age of a rule making it more valid.

The use of Mrs. Maidenname is also incorrect, for a more subtle reason. Mrs. does not mean "married woman", it means "Mistress of." In its most correct usage, it is used only with a man''s first and last name, as in Mrs. Robert Jones.

To call the wife of Mr. Robert Jones using her first name and last name, ie. Mrs. Susan Jones, even assuming she has adopted her husband''s last name, is not technically correct. It has become common in modern times (as women have resisted being addressed as mere appendages to their husbands), but is not technically correct. For you to suggest you would consider this form of address implies that you are willing to accept some modern tweaks to the old correct forms of address.

It is even more wrong to use Mrs. when a woman has not adopted her husband''s last name. Mrs. Susan Smith, where Smith is a the woman''s given name at birth, is not correct, as you are attempting to refer to Susan Smith herself, and not to the mistress or wife of Susan Smith.

Ms. is the correct form of address for a married woman who has retained her prior family name. It is a modern invention, but one born of the necessity that arose when women chose not to adopt their husband''s last names. (Well, maybe its invention had other reasons as well.) I''m certainly willing to give wide leeway to people who mistakenly address me incorrectly, either in name or title, but it''s a little different when someone knowingly chooses to address me incorrectly. Good luck!

 

[Pandora II]

Date: 6/13/2008 9:44:04 PM
Author: rockzilla
I think you should avoid asking us crass Americans for etiquette advice here...it appears there is a social class/country disconnect.

In the US, Ms. is often the only correct form: http://www.emilypost.com/everyday/forms_of_address.htm

What is your opposition to it? Because it is new? It has been used widely for 30+ years. Because Americans came up with it?

Perhaps you can write to the Queen for advice, because you certainly don''t seem to want ours.

The only question I was actually wanting an answer to was whether people thought I should address the divorced wife of another guest as Ms or Mrs or leave a title off altogether. Basically I wanted to be sensitive to this one person but not be so overly sensitive that it actually made it more obvious that hers looked different to everyone elses.

I was happy to discuss the whole Mrs/Miss/Ms thing, as an interesting debate - but I wasn''t actually asking for advice on it.

I would say that the vast majority of women attending (my parents friends) are very happy to be Mrs John Smith and would never be Ms. Of the younger women who are married half use just their husband''s surnames and the other half use his for social, theirs for work. I have no idea who uses Ms or otherwise as I never write to our friends only email them!

(The Royal Household, Houses of Parliament, City of London etc only use Mrs or Miss and if Mrs they use the husband''s first name and last name unless you are a widower or divorced.)

I was merely trying to establish whether it would be better to use no titles for all the women to avoid problems with the divorcees or just change theirs.

ETA: I never suggested Americans might be crass - I was merely suprised at the strength of feeling from people here and presumed that it was more common/important in the US than it is here.

 

[JulieN]

I would be miffed if you left off my title just because I was divorced...

In this case, I'm surprised by those who are offended by convention. After all, this is nothing personal...the same rules apply to everyone.

 

[Rhea]

Date: 6/14/2008 3:33:07 PM
Author: JulieN
I would be miffed if you left off my title just because I was divorced...


In this case, I''m surprised by those who are offended by convention. After all, this is nothing personal...the same rules apply to everyone.

You''re right nothing personal, but the rules are changing and several people have worked hard to change them over the past several decades. Of course people would be offended either way. How you feel if I refused to address you by your name?

Pandora, for the divorcee I''d do for Mrs if she changed to her now ex-husband''s name. I believe that is the more correct.

 

[MMM]

if it will bug you that you don''t have a single other "Ms" on all your cards,
then put your divorced friend as Mrs. [her name]

however, i personally, would probably put Ms.
i am currently a Miss, but commonly chose Ms., because similar to what someone else said, i don''t think its anyones business if i''m married or not.

on another note, i don''t think ANYONE will notice that her card says Ms. and no one else''s does. people just scan for their name, find it, take the card, and move on.

and on a very random side note: it''s really amazing to me that you only have one divorced woman coming to your reception!

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I would use Ms. for divorced women and Miss and Mrs. for the rest. Use what is proper etiquette where you are! Incidentally, Professor wouldn''t be used as a title here. He or she would be called "Dr." if they have a doctorate in their field.

 

[surfgirl]

The feelings that this topic brings up are interesting...I am not changing my maiden name, however, I have no issue with people addressing invitations, gifts, etc. to "Mr. and Mrs. Surfgirl''s Man''s Name". It actually gives me a little thrill because I don''t use it on a daily basis or for professional reasons.

The issue to me, is what to do with a woman who''s divorced and whose ex is re-married and will attend with the new wife. That said, I thought it was acceptable to continue to call the ex wife "Mrs. Ex Husband''s Last Name" if in fact she has not changed her name..But then again, that sounds like she''s still married so what do I know! Maybe I''d call her a "Ms." but I dont know. This is why weddings cause so much trouble!! We have to dust off and drag out these rarely used rules and etiquette that we dont normally use.

Pandora, I''m interested to know what you end up using...I know your wedding is rather formal, IIRC, so I''m sure erring on the side of formality will work just fine for your purposes...

 

[AceP]

FWIW, this was an issue with the wording of my invitations, because my husband''s parents are divorced. for his mom, who kept her married name post-divorce, after much ms. vs mrs. deliberation, we ended up using ms. otherwise it just appeared she was still married to her ex-husband - she''s really not a mrs. at this point.

bottom line, i would use ms. hope that helps.

 

[mjso]

I am by no means an expert on these things...but I just wanted to chime in that I HATE "Ms." as well.

I just hate the way it sounds, and it makes me feel like a stuffy old spinster or something. It almost has a condescending sound for me.

I don''t mind Miss at all. I don''t think it sounds childish to me, but I guess I''d rather people err on the side of making me younger than older.

I think a lot of it stems from when I was waitressing...I use to HATE it when people called me "ma''am". I much preferred "miss". I guess I was younger then and I was so jarred by "ma''am", I definitely didn''t feel like a ma''am.

Sorry I''m no help to your situation, I just wanted to let you know that you aren''t the only one who dislikes "Ms."

 

[Delster]

Date: 6/14/2008 8:50:35 PM
Author: diamondseeker2006
I would use Ms. for divorced women and Miss and Mrs. for the rest. Use what is proper etiquette where you are! Incidentally, Professor wouldn't be used as a title here. He or she would be called 'Dr.' if they have a doctorate in their field.

Actually a woman is never known by her professional title socially. The correct title to use is the one that denotes her marital status.

So for BF and I, who will (eventually!) both have doctorates, his professional title is the correct one to use in all situations, but mine is only to be used professionally. On work-related invitations, we would be "Dr and Dr Retsled" but on non-work-related invitations, we would be "Dr and Mrs Retsled."

Honestly, that irks me. His achievement counts all the time but mine somehow doesn't???


Pandora, personally I use Ms as I find 'Miss' infantilising and I just prefer a title that is neutral as to my marriage status. But in your situation, with a formal party and with the majority of the guests being used to the very formal address and therefore expecting it, I would stick with the orthodox form of address. I wouldn't start hating you over a 'Miss' on my placecard!

BTW - if you go with option (C), I'm curious about this, I believe you have to own property in order to use the title 'Esq'?

 

[Pandora II]

Date: 6/18/2008 9:12:52 AM
Author: Delster

BTW - if you go with option (C), I''m curious about this, I believe you have to own property in order to use the title ''Esq''?

Esquire just means ''gentleman'' and is basically just a courtesy title - in the same way the Dr is a courtesy title for a medical doctor (Dr should only really be used for people with doctorates).

It''s a term I use a lot if I want to send a more formal letter to a man. I also use Master for boys under the age of 13.

In the US I believe it''s many just used for lawyers (? Is this correct).

 

[Delster]

What they told us in the Inns was that the Esquire title applies only when a man owns (real) property, and that it was at one time a requirement in the States that a man own property in order to become a lawyer. It was one of the barriers to women entering the profession. I wondered was the definition more relaxed in the UK.

Hang on, I'll go look it up, just thought you might know off the cuff and I like learning about these things!

ETA - ooh yes, lots of info here!

ETA - BF, whose correct title is 'Dr', still gets letters from the bank addressed to 'Master Retsled'. He's told them to change it but they're a bit slow on the uptake!

 

[Pandora II]

Date: 6/18/2008 12:40:29 PM
Author: Delster


ETA - BF, whose correct title is 'Dr', still gets letters from the bank addressed to 'Master Retsled'. He's told them to change it but they're a bit slow on the uptake!

WOW! Normally it's when boys moved from prep-school to public school that they change - like going into long trousers! Your BF's bank are very slow!

It's an interesting article, I didn't know about the Esq. for British subjects and the Mr. for foreigners. I suppose it goes with foreigners with British honorary knighthoods not being styles as Sir X.

The rules are nightmarish - I do admit to having Debrett's Correct Form on my desk at work and it is a very well-thumbed copy!

 

[gailrmv]

Ya know what, it may be different in the UK but if I were in your shoes here is what I would do:

FirstName LastName

For everyone. Sure, everyone has worked hard to earn their degrees and titles. However, they are attending your wedding in a social sense, not as a doctor, or other professional. Everyone has a first name and a last name. Titles (or lack of) will offend someone. If someone is offended by their first and last name, well, they are just being difficult!

 

[gailrmv]

One other question for you Pandora! I was talking to someone the other day who said she liked tsavorite for an engagement ring but was afraid it was too soft for everyday wear and tear. I told her to read up on Pricescope, but I just wanted to confirm - you haven't had any problems with it, right? I think it's a lovely choice and I love your e-ring!