Meeting prejudice because of surname/ethnicity

[natascha]

I am a bit confused right now.

I am half Latin and therefore have a double surname where half is typically Latin. Today I had an interview at one of the big 4 ( so not a small company at all) and one of the interviewers had some preconceived notions due to my surname. He kept asking me about how I react when I am frustrated, angry, etc and kept challenging my answers until he finally said something about my surname and how Latinas are known for their temper and then kept pressing me to admit that I have a fiery temperament ( which I actually don't have, unless you touch my family of course ).

I honestly did not know what to think and just kept responding honestly. Now afterwords, I kinda wonder if I should have called him out on it.

How would you have handled this type of situation?

Since I have lived abroad for a number of years, I am more used to prejudice towards my Swedish side so this kinda threw me. I guess I don't usually face this kind of stuff since I don't look Latina ( very pale and grey-blue eyes).

 

[yssie]

Isn't that illegal in Sweden?

When I was interviewing (in the US) a few months ago my interviewers were very, very careful about what they said and what they asked. I'm sure they had preconceived notions about me, my temperament, race, religion, marital status - who doesn't? But they aren't allowed to so much as hint at having an opinion one way or another, let alone actually ask or say anything!

It doesn't sound like innocent questions making small talk either - I'd most likely have done the same as you, though. I'd have been confused and answered honestly, gone home baffled, talked to DH who'd have been angry on my behalf, called management/HR the next morning and spent the rest of the day wondering if I'd done the right thing by sending the interviewer to the firing squad....

 

[pregcurious]

I think it's okay that be so taken aback by someone's horrible behavior that you're silent. It happens to be all the time about my race/ethnicity, being not white and living the US.

I also think it's appropriate for you to write a carefully written paper letter to this person and cc'ed to the other people with whom you interviewed saying that you feel that this was offensive. If you want to go one step further, you can write an op-ed letter to your newspaper about that company's hiring practices. Legal or not, that behavior is disgusting.

 

[movie zombie]

a good response in hindsight might have been something along the lines of the following: i think i've proven my temperment in this interview.

or

my responses to your questions regarding a "fiery" temperment should lay to rest any pre-conceived notions that i am unsuitable for this job.



or perhaps he was trying to flirt with you.....?

 

[Haven]

Yikes. I'm sorry this happened to you.

I'm surprised to hear it, because I'm on a search committee at work right now, and we have to treat every single candidate exactly the same. Same questions, same order, same format (so if we want to phone interview screen, we have to phone screen them all.)

This sounds really outrageous to me.

 

[amc80]

I have a friend who has blonde hair and blue eyes. She married someone with a Japanese last name (he's half Japanese). She said that she'd get some strange looks when showing up to interviews because they were apparently not expecting someone like her. Ha!

 

[ImperfectGirl]

Yikes. I'm sorry this happened to you.

I'm surprised to hear it, because I'm on a search committee at work right now, and we have to treat every single candidate exactly the same. Same questions, same order, same format (so if we want to phone interview screen, we have to phone screen them all.)

This sounds really outrageous to me.

Completely agree with Haven. I work in HR as a recruiter and we treat every candidate the same. Our questions aren't all exactly the same as various levels of experience, work history, and education warrant different questions but never anything close to what you experienced.

Preconceived notions are natural to a degree but they shouldn't color the interview and a professional wouldn't have handled it that way. I'm sorry that you experienced that.

 

[Circe]

Yep. I look very, very Jewish - like, to the point that when I put on a black wig and a 1930's To the Manor Borne type costume for Halloween, nobody but nobody guessed 1930s, or rich lady, or flapper, or pregnant Clara Bow. Instead, they all guessed - wait for it! - "sexy Barbara Streisand."

I was 8 months pregnant, yo. It makes me sad, a) that every single woman's costume is prefixed by "sexy," and, b) for poor Babs! Jesus, she was and is a looker - when the pregnant imitator translates as the sexy version, something is very, very wrong.

(It has, however, given me my next decade of Halloween costumes: next year I'm going as Sexy Yentl, the year after that, Sexy Hello Dolly, etc., etc.)

Anyway, I digress. Yes, I've gotten a fair amount of prejudice on the basis of my ethnicity - usually benign, of the "your people value education, don't they!" variety, occasionally somewhat more malign. The worst was probably from my husband's then-girlfriend, back when we were just friends, and dating other people: she really hated me from the get-go, and when she told an anecdote about going shopping with her family at a store where, of course, things were overpriced because it was run by Jews, I got a little additional insight into why that might be (besides the whole opposite-sex-friends-are-weird thing). It was kind of the last straw for me in dealing with her - there had been, oh, two years of passive aggressive nastiness already, and I was done. But I'm rather pleased to say that I didn't blow up at her.

I played dumb. Really, really dumb. Turns out that if you just keep saying, "I'm not really following you: when you say Jews are cheap ...?" or the equivalent, most people will dig themselves a hole so deep that eventually, they realize exactly how bad they sound. From the sound of it, you enacted a variant of that, which in an interview situation is probably the best way to go. But as a follow-up, I think I'd go with Yssie's recommendation - that guy needs to be, at the least, reamed out by HR for making candidates uncomfortable and the company open to litigation.

 

[natascha]

I promise I will be back to respond to everyone as soon as I can. I have an exam tomorrow that I am completely freaking out about and literally feeling ill. My grandmother had a heart attack and worrying about her and some other stuff (which probably caused the heart attack)so I have not been able to concentrate on my studies.

 

[KaeKae]

Sadly, I have, regarding my husband's last name, even before were engaged, then married. From my own father. I won't go into the whole story, but it did not end well, for my father. I didn't and don't put up with such garbage. People are people. Our differences and our similiarities make us interesting, and should be celebrated. He's really the only one (in 20+ years) to do so, that I know of. And, btw, I did take DH's last name when we married. Despite my father's nasty attitude, I do have pride in my heritage, but I didn't want to share his name, plus, I thought that keeping it or hyphenating would make it look like I didn't want an association with hubby's name, and that was so not true. (Not that I really think that of any woman who keeps her birth name, but back then, I thought it would be what my father thought. Obviously, this was all emotionally driven at the time.)

 

[yssie]

::HUGS:: natascha, I hope it goes well tomorrow and that your grandmother is okay!!

I (Indian) didn't take my husband's (2nd generation American with a very distinctively Jewish surname) last name, so I can't say I've ever dealt with this sort of prejudice - people are just usually surprised to learn who my husband is! I remember at one point my (blonde and blue eyed) friend was dating a (half black) guy, and when we were out together people *always* assumed the couples were switched. We all found it terribly amusing - it is an interesting social commentary though.

 

[chemgirl]

My aunt, who is Guyanese, says she gets this all of the time. My uncle has a very Scottish sounding last name so when she goes to interviews people assume they have the wrong file. She thinks its hilarious, but she is really easy going. The interviewers have never questioned her about stereotypes or anything. That's really not cool!

She was less amused when they were on a trip in the US and people assumed they weren't together. She said they'd be at a restaurant and the host would say "table for one sir?" and then look baffled when my uncle would correct them. This happened several times and started to really annoy them. So much so that they won't return to that city.

 

[Haven]

Circe--I like your approach. I've recently taken that approach for fielding all questions and inquiries I don't feel like answering. I just play dumb. "Sorry, I'm not following." "What do you mean?" "Why would you ask that?" It's worked so far.

I have the opposite experience as you, Circe. I'm Jewish but have heard throughout my life that I "don't look Jewish." We were just at a wedding on Sunday and one of the bride's friends, who has known my DH for about twenty years, saw me and said "Oh, so you married a shiksa?" Then she leaned in to me and said "We really don't like it when you gentiles take all our good men away from us." I was about to tell her that I don't like it that her behavior gives Jewish women a bad name, but DH restrained me. Ridiculous on so many levels.

 

[chemgirl]

Deleted because I felt it was borderline for this forum.

 

[JewelFreak]

Waaay out of line for the interviewer, no question. I take most stuff in stride, but that deserves a letter to HR, copy to the guy's boss if you know who it is. It's really really poor form. You might make the point that it is not only legally risky, but is an indication that that company wouldn't be a comfortable place to work -- if he said it to you, he's said similar stuff to others.

I can't imagine making comments to someone regarding their ethnicity. It's just crude. Unless it's from interest and only if the conversation makes it comfortable -- for instance, I love Thai names; they sound like music & I've always wanted to go to Thailand. I can picture saying that in the right context -- but only the right context. Otherwise, it's horrid.

 

[Circe]

Circe--I like your approach. I've recently taken that approach for fielding all questions and inquiries I don't feel like answering. I just play dumb. "Sorry, I'm not following." "What do you mean?" "Why would you ask that?" It's worked so far.

I have the opposite experience as you, Circe. I'm Jewish but have heard throughout my life that I "don't look Jewish." We were just at a wedding on Sunday and one of the bride's friends, who has known my DH for about twenty years, saw me and said "Oh, so you married a shiksa?" Then she leaned in to me and said "We really don't like it when you gentiles take all our good men away from us." I was about to tell her that I don't like it that her behavior gives Jewish women a bad name, but DH restrained me. Ridiculous on so many levels.

One of my early memories, circe age 5 or so, is of a shopkeeper in our predominantly Jewish neighborhood, leaning over to golden-curled, snub-nosed me in the presence of my father and saying, "Aw, what a cute little shiksa!" Dude should maybe have taken a closer gander at my dad before vocalizing (dad looks like Woody Allen to the same degree that I look like Babs): since my father is old-school and equates "shiksa" with "seductress-barely-this-side-of-Lilith-sent-to-tempt-the-righteous-Talmudic-scholar," he went off.

Needles to say, my father would not agree with the "playing dumb" approach, and follows more of a scorched earth policy.

Seriously, though, when did that word and concept get mainstreamed? Was it right around the time that people apparently decided that certain forms of bigotry - "positive stereotypes" - were "in" again?

I think your comeback was awesome, btw. Dead right!

Natascha, I'm really sorry to hear about your grandmother, and I hope that she recovers in record time. In the meantime, don't worry about anything but her and your exam - we're an understanding lot.

 

[manderz]

I just. Had a similar experience... The interviews I had for the job I just landed made kind of a big deal about my marital status. Not sure how/why they felt it was appropriate, but it was worked into a conversation about health benefits, and when I didn't volunteer my status, she outright asked, and I answered with a generic "I'm single". I didn't wear any rings, and it made me a little uncomfortable. When I did get the job, I stopped in to do some paperwork, and the first thing I was asked about was my ering that I had forgotten to remove. Literally, "sign this, is that an engagement ring?" at this point I felt it was a little more ok to talk about it, but still don't know why that has to define me so much for her.

 

[MissStepcut]

I just. Had a similar experience... The interviews I had for the job I just landed made kind of a big deal about my marital status. Not sure how/why they felt it was appropriate, but it was worked into a conversation about health benefits, and when I didn't volunteer my status, she outright asked, and I answered with a generic "I'm single". I didn't wear any rings, and it made me a little uncomfortable. When I did get the job, I stopped in to do some paperwork, and the first thing I was asked about was my ering that I had forgotten to remove. Literally, "sign this, is that an engagement ring?" at this point I felt it was a little more ok to talk about it, but still don't know why that has to define me so much for her.

I never wear any rings to interviews, because it matters so much. In fact, for the job I recently got, someone explicitly mentioned that they believed I would come (to a non-major city) since I wasn't "wearing a ring" and had my freedom still.

The important thing is to be aware of it so you can guard against it.

 

[manderz]

This is the first time I have interviewed for a job (that wasn't a jewelry store, and therefore ok to wear jewelry) since I've had anything of quality, engagement or not. I was shocked about what w big deal it was made into.i guess I generally gave people the benefit of the doubt, and Assumed things like that wouldnt matter. I guess I learned a valuable lesson. Thankfully, I already had the job by the time she saw my ering.

 

[Black Jade]

I think Natascha should complain, this is outrageous.

My name doesn't sound foreign and my accent is a neutral basic American but when I show up, I'm black. Though it's more complicated than that--my heritage is what they call multi-generational mixed. My skin is extremely light, my eyes are green and I have curls but I have to take trouble for them to look like 'afro' curls. Nowadays this is not so bad as it used to be because people are more used to black-white marriages here and mixed race people, but I think I have heard it all. Some of it was the more offensive because it was not meant to be offensive, if you know what I mean. But I sort of hope you don't. Let's put it this way. I have been the subject of racism against blacks by whites; racism against light-skinned blacks or mixed race blacks by blacks; xenophobia against foreigners by both when it's revealed taht I wasn't born in the US;and also of prejudice against Latinas and of various other ethnic groups, when people guess wrongly what I am (recently I have had people think I was of Arabic extraction and been poorly treated at times because of that.

Besides being just racist, people will actually ARGUE with me and insist I must be of certain ethnic background after I've told them I'm not. And then they get mad me for 'hiding' what I 'really am'. It reaches astonishing levels of absurdity at times and a person really needs a sense of humor to deal with it.

I am willing to give people quite a lot of slack in social situations and assume that their foot in their mouth is not intentional, but I think that when it's a matter of a job, the days when an interviewer should be allowed to get away with the kind of thing that happened to Natascha should be over and done with, and in her case I think she ought to complain.

 

[natascha]

Thank you all for responding and for the kind words.I found it very interesting to read all of your responses.

Some more background. HR is not really involved in this process yet. I met one of the partners at an event that the company had organised and apparently made a very good impression. He then told me to contact him directly ( instead of going through HR) which I did. I was then passed to the person handling the actual interviews for this specific team (not part of HR) and interviewed with him. After passing that I was booked for the meeting with the guy that made the inappropriate comments and an other guy. From my understanding they will not involve HR until they have decided if they want me and what for ( thats right I don't even know what I am being interviewed for ). Then HR needs to get involved to do all the testing that is required of all applicants before any contacts are signed.

I found it quite interesting to read about your collective experiences with HR. My case seems a bit different, we have no such thing as the same questions asked from each interviewee for example.HR are not involved as yet and since the guy did not actually do anything illegal ( he needs to discriminate for it to be illegal and truthfully I seem to be doing pretty well so it does not count as discrimination) I don't think anything will happen from me sending a letter except from me shooting myself in the foot. Also the guy is a partner so no such thing as a firing squad in this case.

I was actually forewarned from someone else that he was not politically correct. I personally did not find the Latina thing that offensive, I was just really shocked that it even came up. I was more offended by a joke he made about fibromalgia suffers and burnout.

Over here they are allowed to ask about tex marital status, push you about what you are going to do if your partner get an offer in a different country, etc. It is also a pretty close knit community that is predominantly white. They mainly recruit from my school and I believe that the year I started, there were no blacks, just one or two middle eastern, there were some Asians and I was the only Latina . However that is due not to ethnicity but to grades, people from certain socioeconomic circumstances get better grades, get in to this school then continue the whole thing. I have actually never encountered discrimination due to ethnicity in this context. In fact it is usually a plus point for me to have got this far in spite of my background .

I don't think he meant to be discriminating, he was trying to ride me and make me break down. This guy was really riding me during the whole interview. There is usually at least one interviewer, often a partner that does that. They say they do it because they need to see how you react under pressure.

I really like the whole playing dumb idea, let them shoot themselves in the foot . I mean seriously, I might not be finished with my law degree but I have completed labor and discrimination law.

I do think discrimination is more of an issue in the US. Over here you are not liable to get discriminated against because of ethnicity but there is a lot networking going around. And lets face it, most people who actually have a shoot at this have a certain background, come from certain family's, went to the right schools, etc. Which really sucks.

 

[TristanC]

I think almost EVERYONE has natural preconceived notions about anything. We build them up as we go along. They aren't necessarily bad preconceptions either - but you would have expectations about most things, including people.

It is fine if we constantly fight to subdue it, especially if it applies to people. In this situation, I wouldn't have remained silent.

I would have turned it into an advantage. In the interview, instead of being surprised, I would have smiled broadly - addressed my ethnicity, then taken a harmless jab at the stereotype being bandied around, then come off stronger after that. Like admit that as a Latino I'm extremely 'passionate' about life, and also about work etc. The fiery side must have turned from quick anger to a burning desire to do well in life yadda yadda crap bullshit.

Learning to deflect a slight upon yourself is important in the corporate world. Sometimes bosses have risen so high and gotten so addled that they occasionally let slip all kinds of things (they aren't used to being careful in speech as nobody challenges them on a daily basis).

The only thing I would be wary of is, even after you do well in an interview like that, you need to ask yourself if you would want to work under a person with such prejudices. And sometimes, if the opportunity presented is good enough, like in the Big 4, the answer might be yes. Because you would move around. And so would the reporting lines.

Oh, and yes, he sounds like a twit. But he might have been trying to see how you react to adversity - like try to get a rise out of you. It is still a stupid way to do it, but hey, not everyone is clued in.