Lockerbie bomber released

[swimmer]

This is so interesting. A real conversation on what compassion means.

Apparently he is close to death and Scottish courts determined that he should be released to his family in Libya. Talking heads are all outraged and Fox blames Obama, but that stuff isn''t interesting, (just predictable).

Can we discuss what compassion means? I always think of Simon Wiesenthal''s The Sunflower whose examination of the differences between forgiveness, compassion, and forgetting are so compelling.

Are the Scots truly showing the world that they are a compassionate people, what is the message here, what are your thoughts? (not a political thing, more like a PHILOSOPHICAL discussion please)

Admin: if this is not OK, please just delete as of course is your prerogative.

 

[dragonfly411]

I personally do view it as an act of compassion. The man has spent his life there, and will probably shortly pass away. When he does, they have given him the gift of it being amongst his family, and he now will be able to be buried amongst them as well.

I don''t believe compassion should be shown to all. Especially in the case of monsters who do horrible things, but at the same time, those people had families once, and people that loved them, and we don''t always know what is going on, they could have mental problems that cause them to act irrationally.

Of course people are going to object, and throw a hissy, but at this point the man has spent his time in there, let him die in peace.

 

[movie zombie]

he is a monster. he didn''t grant those on the plane quality time with family before dying. yeah, he served his time and while i think the scots are a really compassionate people, i''m not sure this guy deserved it.

mz

 

[Camille]

It''s hard to be kind to the one who killed more than 200+ innocent people you know? Sad.

 

[D&T]

Date: 8/20/2009 10:00:17 PM
Author: Camille

It''s hard to be kind to the one who killed more than 200+ innocent people you know? Sad.

+1

 

[CurlySue]

Date: 8/20/2009 10:23:14 PM
Author: D&T

Date: 8/20/2009 10:00:17 PM
Author: Camille

It''s hard to be kind to the one who killed more than 200+ innocent people you know? Sad.

+1

+2

 

[ksinger]

Kindness is hard? Perhaps, but if we''re to believe the conventional wisdom, those things worth doing almost never include taking the easy path.
In one ethical system that comes to mind, kindness, compassion, and forgiveness are not just a suggestion, they are enjoined - not optional, even when
you desperately wish it otherwise.

In any case, people far more knowledgable of the situation than I have deemed him not enough of a threat to keep them from showing compassion.

In my mind forgiveness and/or compassion has little to do with the person being forgiven "deserving" it, but much more to do with the wholeness and health of the person applying it. I live in Oklahoma, and I recall quite clearly one father who lost a daughter in the Murraugh bombing. The whole world was screaming for McVeigh''s blood, but this man publically forgave him, and publically stated he did not want him executed. Now THAT, my friends, is true compassion and forgiveness. I''m not sure I''d be up to it, but something gave that man some serious strength and clarity. Just ask yourself whether a story like that inpires disdain for the man, or (maybe bewildered) admiration. I think most people admire it. But I could be wrong.

 

[D&T]

Date: 8/21/2009 12:14:00 PM
Author: ksinger


Kindness is hard? Perhaps, but if we're to believe the conventional wisdom, those things worth doing almost never include taking the easy path.
In one ethical system that comes to mind, kindness, compassion, and forgiveness are not just a suggestion, they are enjoined - not optional, even when
you desperately wish it otherwise.

In any case, people far more knowledgable of the situation than I have deemed him not enough of a threat to keep them from showing compassion.

In my mind forgiveness and/or compassion has little to do with the person being forgiven 'deserving' it, but much more to do with the wholeness and health of the person applying it. I live in Oklahoma, and I recall quite clearly one father who lost a daughter in the Murraugh bombing. The whole world was screaming for McVeigh's blood, but this man publically forgave him, and publically stated he did not want him executed. Now THAT, my friends, is true compassion and forgiveness. I'm not sure I'd be up to it, but something gave that man some serious strength and clarity. Just ask yourself whether a story like that inpires disdain for the man, or (maybe bewildered) admiration. I think most people admire it. But I could be wrong.

I wouldn't say I'd admired him, however I would say that he is a kinder man than I could be. I lost several members during the Pol Pot reign post Vietnam war, My uncle was executed point blank, my Father had to be sneaky and tossed out every inkling of his past so he would not be executed, (although I was not yet born) I also lost a brother in a plantation camp while my parents struggle to survive and keep the remaining family members alive during his reign. Had it not been for his destruction in that part of the world I would have had another family member still alive. So I cannot forgive his doing or this man. There are still several members of his regime that are still alive, while in prison. Would you show mercy and have them freed? to be amongst a society they once shed blood on? just a thought. I don't disagree/nor agree, but it is an interesting topic if you were affected first hand.

 

[Apsara]

The only way he should go home is like his victims did--in a box.

I am all for compassion--but also for accountrability and responsibility. He made his choices. His/his family's grief/anguish are his sins to bear, as it was his crime that lead to their grief and the grief of more than 200 other families whose lives were ruined.

I think it is highly insulting to the victims of this terrorist to wax poetic about "compassion" for this monster. I kow if it was my mother/father/brother/sister/etc. killed on that plane, I would be enraged beyond belief--not only about his release but about the outpouring of "compassion" for him.

How easily we all forget...and prattle about "forgiveness" and "compassion." well, let me tell you, when you are the victim of a horrendous crime, you NEVER forget. You can possibly forgive and move on, finding good in life, but healing (if it is even possible) does not equal absolution.

 

[movie zombie]

i''m not for the death penalty....even in this case. but i do believe he should have completed the time sentenced.......


mz

 

[klewis]

It has to be said that internationally, there has been a great deal of disquiet over the conviction of Abdelbaset Ali Mohmed al-Megrahi for this crime. I think it would be an act of compassion to take a look at the reason for the disquiet.
I''m trying to imagine what it would be like to have had a loved one die in this terrorist attack. If I were convinced of the man''s guilt, I can''t imagine being able to feel compassion even though I would like to think I could.

Swimmer- I have not read Simon wiesenthal''s The Sunflower. It sounds interesting though.

 

[AGBF]

Date: 8/22/2009 9:16:16 PM
Author: klewis

Swimmer- I have not read Simon wiesenthal's The Sunflower. It sounds interesting though.

I just joined this thread. I do know The Sunflower; I used to use it in my teaching. I have not read it for many years, however.

I am lucky to have a copy on my shelf, however, so that I can refresh my memory. Wasn't it Wiesenthal who said that no one else could forgive acts that were committed against another person? (This does not argue against compassion, of course. I am just asking Swimmer since she read the book more recently than I did.)

I have two other "must reads" of The Sunflower genre. Maybe I should start a thread in "The Library", but I suspect that no one would be interested, so I will just mention them here. They are: Diary of A Man In Despair by Friedrich Percyval Reck-Malleczewen and For Those I Loved by Martin Gray.


AGBF

 

[KittyBling]

Personally I feel the right thing has been done. This is just my opinion but I do not believe for one second that this man is guilty. Many things were not disclosed at his original trial and sadly there will be no second appeal where the truth may have come to light.

 

[swimmer]

Date: 8/21/2009 9:17:50 PM
Author: Apsara
The only way he should go home is like his victims did--in a box.


I am all for compassion--but also for accountrability and responsibility. He made his choices. His/his family''s grief/anguish are his sins to bear, as it was his crime that lead to their grief and the grief of more than 200 other families whose lives were ruined.


I think it is highly insulting to the victims of this terrorist to wax poetic about ''compassion'' for this monster. I kow if it was my mother/father/brother/sister/etc. killed on that plane, I would be enraged beyond belief--not only about his release but about the outpouring of ''compassion'' for him.


How easily we all forget...and prattle about ''forgiveness'' and ''compassion.'' well, let me tell you, when you are the victim of a horrendous crime, you NEVER forget. You can possibly forgive and move on, finding good in life, but healing (if it is even possible) does not equal absolution.

Yes, accountability is crucial. As is responsibility. That is why he was serving time.

I''m not certain how discussing compassion and forgiveness is insulting. Any religious person in any of the major world religions hears about forgiveness and compassion every friday night, saturday afternoon, or sunday morning. I''m not in favor of forgetting. Aside from being a history teacher, two of my siblings were killed, one for ideological reasons and one out of blind ignorance. I am not forgetting them when I forgive the drunk driver or when I have compassion for the Palestinian teenager who was blinded by rage and attacked the first Israeli he saw.
I guess some would think that I am not doing justice to the memory of my siblings, but I think that the only way an empathic person can go on living in the face of tragedy (or when I was wounded in combat) is to find a way to make sense of it all. I saw that in the faces of parents who lost a child on that flight who whose faces were twisted with rage, and on others'' faces who were on fewer tv shows, who forgave and seemed more at peace. I am not saying that it is easier to be compassionate or to forgive, I''m saying that they are very different things from forgetting or not acknowledging what happened, and that which is easy is not always what is best.

Wiesenthal''s The Sunflower is fiction, based on W''s experience during the Holocaust, it is an untenable position that forces the reader to decide what he or she would do. The second .5 of the book is commentary by Desmond Tutu, The Dali Lama, etc on their take on the situation. I have taught with this book since 9/11 and my only real problem is that students refuse to return the book at the end of the semester. Wiesenthal of course dedicated his life to hunting down Nazis after the war. I strongly suggest it for all thinking people.

 

[Pandora II]

If a country has a policy of releasing prisoners who are terminally ill on compassionate grounds, is it wrong to refuse to release one individual because of potential political fallout?

If he had not been released it would have been making his case different to that of many others who have commited equally horrible crimes...

I do think that the Libyans acted unwisely in their reception of him on his return - that was insulting and will I''m sure influence future decisions of this kind.

 

[Apsara]

Date: 8/25/2009 11:45:03 AM
Author: swimmer

Date: 8/21/2009 9:17:50 PM
Author: Apsara
The only way he should go home is like his victims did--in a box.


I am all for compassion--but also for accountrability and responsibility. He made his choices. His/his family''s grief/anguish are his sins to bear, as it was his crime that lead to their grief and the grief of more than 200 other families whose lives were ruined.


I think it is highly insulting to the victims of this terrorist to wax poetic about ''compassion'' for this monster. I kow if it was my mother/father/brother/sister/etc. killed on that plane, I would be enraged beyond belief--not only about his release but about the outpouring of ''compassion'' for him.


How easily we all forget...and prattle about ''forgiveness'' and ''compassion.'' well, let me tell you, when you are the victim of a horrendous crime, you NEVER forget. You can possibly forgive and move on, finding good in life, but healing (if it is even possible) does not equal absolution.

Yes, accountability is crucial. As is responsibility. That is why he was serving time.

I''m not certain how discussing compassion and forgiveness is insulting. Any religious person in any of the major world religions hears about forgiveness and compassion every friday night, saturday afternoon, or sunday morning. I''m not in favor of forgetting. Aside from being a history teacher, two of my siblings were killed, one for ideological reasons and one out of blind ignorance. I am not forgetting them when I forgive the drunk driver or when I have compassion for the Palestinian teenager who was blinded by rage and attacked the first Israeli he saw.
I guess some would think that I am not doing justice to the memory of my siblings, but I think that the only way an empathic person can go on living in the face of tragedy (or when I was wounded in combat) is to find a way to make sense of it all. I saw that in the faces of parents who lost a child on that flight who whose faces were twisted with rage, and on others'' faces who were on fewer tv shows, who forgave and seemed more at peace. I am not saying that it is easier to be compassionate or to forgive, I''m saying that they are very different things from forgetting or not acknowledging what happened, and that which is easy is not always what is best.

Wiesenthal''s The Sunflower is fiction, based on W''s experience during the Holocaust, it is an untenable position that forces the reader to decide what he or she would do. The second .5 of the book is commentary by Desmond Tutu, The Dali Lama, etc on their take on the situation. I have taught with this book since 9/11 and my only real problem is that students refuse to return the book at the end of the semester. Wiesenthal of course dedicated his life to hunting down Nazis after the war. I strongly suggest it for all thinking people.

Your sensitive and introspective post was very powerful. I am sorry to read of your tragic losses and I am in awe of your strength. I am one of those people who has a hard time letting go of anger. I am sure that shapes my views. I have often wished I was more like some of the people you cite, who were able to forgive and find a greater measure of peace, or so it seems. The burtality of human kind weighs on my heart. I workin animal rights/dog rescue and the horrors I see crush my spirit... Just the other day i saw a man come in to a restuarant with hsi seeing eye dog. What a gentle, smart, loving beast.... and yet all I could think of was the opposite--how people beat and mutilate these creatures every day for no reason. It makes me so angry... I have, i suppose, a rather negative view of human nature because of my experiences. It is hard for me to separate my feelings as I move from one context to another.

I have not read the Sunflower but did read The Murderers Among Us, his memoir. I will pick up The Sunflower.

 

[ksinger]

Our Swimmer is an evolved soul, is she not? I truly think so. Thoughtful, engaged, living and experiencing life in all its beauty and tragedy, and yet able to maintain her center and come through it all to real compassion. I''ve only met a very very few like her in my travels through life. Maybe a few more turns of the wheel and she will be a bohdisattva. Regardless, she recommends good books: I''m going to read "The Sunflower" too.

 

[swimmer]

Oh Karen!
Not sure how far Jews can get in the Buddhist reincarnation gig, but thank you.

Apsara, Thank you for your post. Its just that I find rage to be exhausting. Hatred hurts the person who hates far more than the person who is hated. MLK wrote extensively about this. I would also suggest reading about the South African Truth and Reconciliation Committee. The issues of forgiveness, responsibility, and respect are still very nakedly painful there. I have to admit that I am frequently maddened, disgusted, and distraught over the news of the world, but then I just turn off Fox news and it is all better. Just kidding, well, sort of...

If you are paralyzed by the hurt of the world it is impossible to reach out a hand to help alleviate others'' burden. RFK

 

[Black Jade]

Shouldn''t mix up compassion and justice.
In my opinion, the person who was hurt is the only one who can forgive (besides God) and this is an important thing for them to do for their healing, though it is incredibly difficult. However, the state''s job is to dispense justice. It wasn''t always so--but when it wasn''t then you got vigilantes and blood feuds that went on forever and all kinds of issues. So an impartial state is supposed to take this over. so that there can be a balance and so that the innocent (and the weak) can be protected. It sends a confusing message when the state stops dispensing justice and does things like this. Not just to the families of the murdered but to others.
I understand that there was a party in Libya when this guy got off the plane--what kind of message did they get there?
I don''t think that it was a message about compassion so miuch as a message about weakness.
I don''t think that it was the correct decision to make.