Let's Talk About it: Equal Pay

[monarch64]

Hi,
If the man you spoke to is a new hire, why would you expect him to raise your salary to be the same as the younger man who is also a new hire. I doubt he has the authority. When he hired you the owner gave him a range, which is not unusual for a job spec. He also likes that he is paid more.

You liked this job, so I would contact the owner and try to work out a new deal. Keep your kool even if the owner doesn't.

Some of this mish-mash is due to the inexperience of your colleagues,

Annette

I may take your advice, Annette, and reach out to the owner. I really dislike dealing with his roller coaster emotional ways, but he has confided in me several times that his father was physically abusive when he was growing up and I truly think he has some issues from childhood trauma that he hasn’t dealt with, so I try to give him grace. The other man is married to a psychiatrist, and he seems alright—we got along fine. The principle of him KNOWING that he and the other guy are making a certain amount (for example let’s say they make $50/hr and I make $45) and then lowballing me thinking I wouldn’t find out is the problem. That was rude and discriminatory, and he absolutely CAN pick up the phone and say Hey Owner, Monarch is worth as much as we are, I think we should offer the same amount.

When you say inexperience I have to laugh. The older guy who interviewed and made me the offer is a former CEO and used to oversee hundreds of convenience stores. He knew what he was doing.

 

[monarch64]

Good for you! I’m glad you stuck to your principles. I had a similar experience years ago, when the fiance of the bosses daughter came to work at the company. He spent his entire time on the phone to his friends, which is how I overheard that he was getting paid the same as me. I promptly pointed out that there was no comparison between what I was doing and the amount of work I generated, to him chatting to his friends and getting paid for it. Fortunately, they realised who was more valuable to their company, I got a pay rise, and he got the boot!

I’m glad it worked out for you!! I feel kind of sorry for the daughter though…imagine being married to a guy who never did any work. $100 says that carried over to the bedroom.

 

[monarch64]

you are my hero of the day

Thank you, it feels good to hear that. All women are my she-roes. Having feet on our necks for thousands of years yet still surviving and thriving is kind of a big deal.

 

[monarch64]

Kind of related, however, please scroll past if it is not.

When I started my professional life in the 80s, I was working as a HCP in UK's National Health Service (NHS) where everyone knew what everyone else was getting in terms of salary, as the pay scale was published and open knowledge.

A job role would be assigned a band of x number of grades to allow for variation in knowledge and experience. Every year, the post holder would automatically get a pay rise of y grades, etc...

There was no noticeable difference in salary between male or female post holder for the same job role in different hospitals and/or locations.

When I left and moved into the private sector, in early 90s, shortly after starting my job, I was asked by one of my co-workers what I was earning, and I told her without thinking much about it.

A couple of months later during my probation review with my boss, I was asked why I disclosed my salary to my co-worker. So I told him I thought it would be like in the NHS when everyone knew what everyone else was earning etc...

I still remember his response to this day.

"When communications like those relating to salary were marked "Private and Confidential" it should remain as such. I do not expect this to happen again."

It turned out as I was the newest recruit, I was offered a higher salary than those in the same post who had been with the company for longer, as they received less pay rise compared with the NHS.

My co-worker took it up with my boss, along with others in the same role in different locations, and it caused him grief.

Since then, I had learnt never to talk about salary and what I am earning with anyone, as it is a very thorny subject.

Personally, I fully support equal pay for a job role with the same responsibilities, duties and number of reportees.

DK

This is totally relevant! Thank you for sharing. So therein lies the problem—no transparency. I think it’s a ridiculous practice not to just lay it all out there and let employees meet goals for raises and bonuses but be paid the same across the board for the same job!

It is a big no-no in the United States to tell employees not to discuss pay. I forget what the Act is but it started in 1935! An employer isn’t legally allowed to swear employees to secrecy about their pay. They still do it, however, because a lot of people don’t know their rights.

 

[Snowdrop13]

I work for a public service so everyone gets the same basic pay, although there are increments up to a maximum and there would be no negotiation as a new start unless you were applying in a shortage area. Then you might be able to get started further up the pay scale. I‘m pretty sure the men in my department will overall be higher earners, though- they work more hours, often, and are more likely to volunteer for the paid extras. I have no problem with that as I don’t want to do any of it myself! There’s little discussion about pay and salaries locally, although there is more of a conversation nationally. I actually think I deserve a higher hourly rate due to my skills and level of experience but I can’t negotiate with the government by myself.

 

[dk168]

@monarch64 whether it is legally binding or not, I personally do not feel comfortable about talking how much I earn.

It is bad enough to say I don't need to work full time and am comfortable working just 2 days a week!

DK

 

[monarch64]

@monarch64 whether it is legally binding or not, I personally do not feel comfortable about talking how much I earn.

It is bad enough to say I don't need to work full time and am comfortable working just 2 days a week!

DK

It is certainly not necessary to say what you earn in the US. The law just protects people from retaliatory behavior from their company IF the employee talks about it.

For the record I never would’ve brought up my pay and would’ve gone on working just fine UNTIL someone told me what was happening. Lesson 1: don’t piss off employees. Lesson 2: make sure they leave on amicable terms, have them do an exit interview, and maybe make them sign a ND.

 

[missy]

I think it is important for colleagues to be open and above board with each other (about salary as one example) so inequality of pay does not continue. What is that quote? Sunlight is the best disinfectant. Amen sister. Amen.

Secrets are bad for us.
Airing this info is good.
Equal jobs should receive equal pay.
Being a woman doesn't make us inferior in what we do.
In fact, I would go as far as to say we do a better job than many men who get paid more.
Just a personal observation and certainly not true for everyone.
But damn, we deserve equal pay for the same job well done.
Period.

And the fact we are still dealing with this so many decades later shows this is a big problem and sweeping it under the rug isn't working. Being vocal and clear about what we want and not settling for less is the only way to remediate this issue. It's 2022 almost 2023 and it's surreal we are still not considered equal to our male counterparts in many ways.

 

[smitcompton]

I may take your advice, Annette, and reach out to the owner. I really dislike dealing with his roller coaster emotional ways, but he has confided in me several times that his father was physically abusive when he was growing up and I truly think he has some issues from childhood trauma that he hasn’t dealt with, so I try to give him grace. The other man is married to a psychiatrist, and he seems alright—we got along fine. The principle of him KNOWING that he and the other guy are making a certain amount (for example let’s say they make $50/hr and I make $45) and then lowballing me thinking I wouldn’t find out is the problem. That was rude and discriminatory, and he absolutely CAN pick up the phone and say Hey Owner, Monarch is worth as much as we are, I think we should offer the same amount.

When you say inexperience I have to laugh. The older guy who interviewed and made me the offer is a former CEO and used to oversee hundreds of convenience stores. He knew what he was doing.

Hi,

I certainly will retract my statement about the inexperience of the part-time man who was a CEO. I know I would be as upset as you are if it had happened to me. It is insulting.
I really was happy for you when you posted that life had improved for you. I wish the best for you and a satisfactory outcome.

Annette

 

[Mrs_Strizzle]

I'm not dismissing your experience at all, but have to say I find it interesting that as an employer you wouldn't want to hire any men. I feel the exact opposite. After working for 11 years in n a building with 45 women and 6 men there is no way I would want to only work with women! The mass majority drive me bonkers with the drama. I am a tomboy introvert at heart and tend to prefer the more direct approach men generally take versus grudges and gossiping I experienced with women. I now work with my husband and our male contractors and am happy as a lark.

I am happy you stood up for yourself, that's what so many women lack in the workplace. I've never had an issue saying what I want, how I feel, that I think someone completely f%/&@ed up, and then have a beer with them after the mess is cleaned up. But I do understand that's why I've never been that popular with women either, lol. Years supervising 6 women is what drove me to drink!

 

[monarch64]

I'm not dismissing your experience at all, but have to say I find it interesting that as an employer you wouldn't want to hire any men. I feel the exact opposite. After working for 11 years in n a building with 45 women and 6 men there is no way I would want to only work with women! The mass majority drive me bonkers with the drama. I am a tomboy introvert at heart and tend to prefer the more direct approach men generally take versus grudges and gossiping I experienced with women. I now work with my husband and our male contractors and am happy as a lark.

I am happy you stood up for yourself, that's what so many women lack in the workplace. I've never had an issue saying what I want, how I feel, that I think someone completely f%/&@ed up, and then have a beer with them after the mess is cleaned up. But I do understand that's why I've never been that popular with women either, lol. Years supervising 6 women is what drove me to drink!

I would counter that women tend to have a TON of internalized misogyny due to living under the thumb of the patriarchy and feeling they have to fight and compete for so many things. Women get bored easily; women are better at multi-tasking and can generally run circles around men doing the same jobs and more accurately. It’s biological. Managing women is far easier than keeping men on task in my experience. Some women need redirection and cultivation to be at peak productivity. It’s all in the art of dealing with people and understanding their psyche. I’ve worked with women who were very hateful towards me and some of my greatest impediments. I always figured out what their fears were and turned them into allies. Then we functioned better as a team. There is definitely a tendency in the world to assume women are dramatic and emotional; I have discovered the opposite—men have little ability to regulate their emotions and often have fits of rage and tantrums. Look at who does the mass shootings in the US. It ain’t women.

 

[monarch64]

Hi,

I certainly will retract my statement about the inexperience of the part-time man who was a CEO. I know I would be as upset as you are if it had happened to me. It is insulting.
I really was happy for you when you posted that life had improved for you. I wish the best for you and a satisfactory outcome.

Annette

I did send the owner an email last night. I stated the reason I resigned, cited laws and examples of wage discrimination based on gender, then re-stated why I am a value-add to the company. He may contact me, he may not. I’ll be content either way. Life has not become worse for me because of this. It is a mere blip in the grand scheme of things. A disappointing blip, but a blip nonetheless. Thank you for your advice and kind words, they are very appreciated.

 

[Lookinagain]

I agree that people in the same job, who actually do the same job as competently as one another should be paid the same. But reality is that isn't always the case. Some people are just better at their job than others, have more experience, perhaps a larger customer base, work harder, etc. So all those things come into play. It shouldn't be gender related at all. However skill does allow for some differences in salary for people in the same "position" or job title. Which is why you need to advocate for yourself if you feel that your ability and experience are more than the person who makes more. That you may work harder or have a larger customer base. All of those things do come into play in most positions. If you're better at your job than a co-worker, I don't think it's wrong for you to make more. So I'm just wondering how to define pay equality?

 

[monarch64]

I agree that people in the same job, who actually do the same job as competently as one another should be paid the same. But reality is that isn't always the case. Some people are just better at their job than others, have more experience, perhaps a larger customer base, work harder, etc. So all those things come into play. It shouldn't be gender related at all. However skill does allow for some differences in salary for people in the same "position" or job title. Which is why you need to advocate for yourself if you feel that your ability and experience are more than the person who makes more. That you may work harder or have a larger customer base. All of those things do come into play in most positions. If you're better at your job than a co-worker, I don't think it's wrong for you to make more. So I'm just wondering how to define pay equality?

Those are all fair and reasonable thoughts. All the people in my position were eligible for sales bonuses, so that’s where there was room to really prove oneself. Benefits were the same across the board, why not make the pay equal across the board and then depending on your buying/merchandising/sales skills earn bonuses? Seems like a very fair approach to me. If you read the Equal Pay Act of 1963 and do a Google search for pertinent examples of gender-based wage discrimination you’ll find that what has happened in my case is indeed a classic case of it.

 

[Lookinagain]

All the people in my position were eligible for sales bonuses, so that’s where there was room to really prove oneself

well, then yes, if it's a sales type or commission based position, then the base pay and benefits should probably be the same as your competency will show in the commissions you make, assuming you all have to follow the same rules. I think that's very different from straight salary based positions, where the salary is the only thing that compensates superior performance.

 

[monarch64]

well, then yes, if it's a sales type or commission based position, then the base pay and benefits should probably be the same as your competency will show in the commissions you make, assuming you all have to follow the same rules. I think that's very different from straight salary based positions, where the salary is the only thing that compensates superior performance.

It’s a purchasing position. To be specific, I worked for a large independently owned outdoor adventure store. Think REI but much more specialized. At one time I did the buying for both apparel AND footwear. This past time the position had changed to only apparel buying because that department has grown and it involves a lot more than footwear buying, hardwoods (climbing gear, boats/accessories, knives, camp supplies), and gifts/specialty/accessories. Numbers have always shown we were a clothing store over and above all else. Why? More people want to wear a Patagonia label on their jacket than actually participate in activities requiring serious equipment and supplies, and clothing is seasonal making it a continual need. My appointments to see vendors and lines for F23 were filled immediately and I was booked solid for the next buying trip whereas my co-workers had a ton of downtime between appointments. Choosing product assortments may sound easy but it takes years of experience and expertise and a particular talent involving a good eye and the ability to predict trends. You have to be able to visualize what everything will look like on the sales floor. You have to know your customer. You have to be able to space out deliveries according to projected sales based on LY numbers. You have to be very tech-savvy in an ever-evolving b2b environment and you have to keep up relationships with your vendor reps. There is so much more that goes into apparel buying than people would ever think of. And like any industry, you keep up with trade journals/publications/news on a constant basis. Just today Patagonia announced that Chouinard has donated the entire company to fight climate change. I could go on and on. I know the business inside and out, and I brought much more to the table than anyone else currently in those positions. To not have been offered a competitive wage had NOTHING to do with my skills, experience, and talent and everything to do with my gender.

Example: there was some issue with one of the iPads being locked due to a previous buyer quitting and not leaving note of the credentials to access it. No one in the place knew how to unlock it. I had it unlocked and reset in less than 2 hours. The owner asked me incredulously how I got so technical. I said because I had to. He was so shocked that I knew what to do and resolved the issue rather effortlessly when there is a store full of young allegedly tech-savvy dudes there. That was just another thing that let me know exactly what he assumed my value-add would be and why.

 

[monarch64]

Update: owner has responded to my email. I will report back when there is significant news. Fwiw he is very upset about my decision to resign but hasn’t mentioned the wage issue. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.